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As one of my players told me, that his alchemist can throw five bombs in one turn (Fast Bombs Discovery, high BAB, Two-Weapon-Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) I, the evil GM, asked myself: Where does he carry all this stuff?
Counting bombs and prepared extracts, he must have nearly 40 small bottles located all over his body, each of which must be easy to reach. I can see this work: Just strap some to the upper arms, outside of the thighs, put them into pouches on the chestpiece, push them into a belt, carry a bandolier for them, BUT....
Can you sunder these bottles?
If they are all easy to reach, at least some of them must be exposed. I am quite positive that a NPC could steal them during combat (gulping down the infused stoneskin-extract the next round) but do those bombs and bottles count as "worn" for the purpose of sundering?
I mean, can I put a monk in front of him and say... "Flurry of Blows! Well... there goes your stoneskin, your Detonation... and 3 of your bombs."
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As one of my players told me, that his alchemist can throw five bombs in one turn (Fast Bombs Discovery, high BAB, Two-Weapon-Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) I, the evil GM, asked myself: Where does he carry all this stuff?
Counting bombs and prepared extracts, he must have nearly 40 small bottles located all over his body, each of which must be easy to reach. I can see this work: Just strap some to the upper arms, outside of the thighs, put them into pouches on the chestpiece, push them into a belt, carry a bandolier for them, BUT....
Can you sunder these bottles?
If they are all easy to reach, at least some of them must be exposed. I am quite positive that a NPC could steal them during combat (gulping down the infused stoneskin-extract the next round) but do those bombs and bottles count as "worn" for the purpose of sundering?
I mean, can I put a monk in front of him and say... "Flurry of Blows! Well... there goes your stoneskin, your Detonation... and 3 of your bombs."
Alchemists carry the component for their bombs and extracts in an Alchemist Kit which is their equivalent to a Spell Component Pouch. You can sunder a spell component pouch and while it might not cause the contents to be all lost, it certainly would prevent using them during the combat. Extracts work almost like potions so you should treat already mixed extracts just like them for purposes of sundering. Bombs are not mixed until theey are actually used so they would be treated more like material components.
Of course, if he is high enough level to throw 5 bombs in a round then he is high enough level to have wings. Good luck getting you monk close enough to actually sunder anything. If you really want to ruin his day, then just make him fight underwater. He should be pretty much useless then.
I do not, howverer, normally advocate an adversarial approach to DMing. If you do use these sorts of encounters you should use them sparingly.
Enemies cannot steal extracts from an alchemist and drink them to gain benefit from them. Per the description of the class, a normal extract becomes inert the moment that it leaves the alchemist's possession.
Now, if the alchemist has the Infusion discovery and the extract is specifically prepared as an infusion, it can be imbibed by others.
Note that the alchemist might also have a mutagen on him, and if an enemy non-alchemist accidentally grabs that and chugs it, it will force a Fort save versus an hour of nausea.
As for the idea itself, I agree with Trollbill: I would use those sorts of encounters sparingly. That said, it's not necessarily unfair to design encounters with creatures that have some form of negation to the alchemist's attacks. For example, throw some creatures in that have DR\slashing, which will make his bombs less effective in general; occasionally pit him against a creature with Evasion and high Reflex saves.
You actually just raised an interesting question in my mind: An alchemist's extracts are essentially spells infused into a liquid form. Can metamagic be applied to them? Can their effects be dispelled?
And once again a GM confuses his job of providing an enjoyable game experience for everybody with getting his personal kicks by destroying player fun.
For example, throw some creatures in that have DR\slashing, which will make his bombs less effective in general; occasionally pit him against a creature with Evasion and high Reflex saves.
Out of interest, how is DR/slashing supposed to reduce the effects bombs, considering that fire damage bypasses DR? Perhaps you mean fire resistance?
I might be an evil GM but not a bastard - most of the time. Of course he can take preparations, that this kind of attack isn't effective anymore, after he realizes that his stuff is rather exposed to sundering attempts. I am kinda hoping on that, in fact. Which would be a nice RP for the players opportunity to gather some - let's say - darkwood with which he enforces all his pouches.
@trollbill
That might be right for a bunch of neatly ordered extracts inside a box or bag. But I think it is quite difficult if he has multiple bombs, he needs to grab, infuse them with his magic and throw them. Having to use both hands (he uses the TWF-Feats) it would be logical to have them stored somewhere on his body, where he can reach them rather quickly... and I don't want to pull him out of the fight because a NPC can take away ALL his vials with one successful maneuver. Of course he can come up with something else than reinforced pouches.
@Xaratherus No his extracts are "infused" ( http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/alchemist.html#_inf usion ) , they don't go inert if he puts them down and he can give them to other players. Because he can't know upfront which extracts he will give to others and which not (and because that issue never came up), I assume that all extracts are infused "just in case" - so it is possible to snatch one. (At least until he tells me otherwise.) This would make for an interesting twist during one combat. - After one or two encounters I am pretty sure that this won't happen anymore, or he even could put some poison in a very prominent vial on his body - which I would appreciate as a clever move on his side. But that mutagen thing is a nice twist too.
@magnuskn
Well I try to come up with something unexpected and new once in the while, that forces the players to adapt and that might even trigger some interesting RP. But there is nothing wrong in preferring encounters of the rack ... ;)
@blakmane From what I came to understand, his bombs deal (put energy type here) damage on a direct hit as well as splash damage, so he ignores any type of DR.
In general, don't go heavy on the sundering. It will not make you friends at the table.
While I pretty much don't have enemies use their own actions to sunder extracts and the like (how would they know which is which anyway? they might just hit an alchemist's fire), I've had several situations where intelligent enemies with Combat Reflexes have an alchemist in their reach throwing 5 bombs who proves more than a match for their AoOs to hit for damage, so they switch over to AoOs to disarm or sunder the bomb.
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In general, don't go heavy on the sundering. It will not make you friends at the table.While I pretty much don't have enemies use their own actions to sunder extracts and the like (how would they know which is which anyway? they might just hit an alchemist's fire), I've had several situations where intelligent enemies with Combat Reflexes have an alchemist in their reach throwing 5 bombs who proves more than a match for their AoOs to hit for damage, so they switch over to AoOs to disarm or sunder the bomb.
This is fine, the same way I would have someone disarm or sunder a bow if they are taking arrows to the face.
What I wouldn't do is have someone with an adamantine glass-smasher show up just to wreck your alchemist's day.
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I really do not understand why some guys are raging at this, because...
1) @maguskn
You are of course free to judge me by the impression you got through these two post of mine. But since my campaign just moved into it's fourth year (with the same players since it started, and with only the occasionally negative feedback) I am quite sure that your impression of me is not entirely correct and that my players enjoy my GM-Style. :P
...but I really don't see where "I don't use the normal rules", when I am basically asking if sundering potions and bombs is okey within the normal rules.
2) @tomorrow
A "severe negative outcome" is a spellcaster that turns a player character into a pile of green dust while a severe wind blows, not a few enemies that know what alchemists do and how they can cause them "slight discomfort" for one or two battles.
Even if I would throw three monks at him, that do nothing else but try to bash his extracts and bombs (which I don't, that would be stupid) it would still take several rounds to smash all of them. Rounds the monks don't have, because they would be gunned down, spiked with arrows, scorched by magic and be dead very quickly...
That's what I get for waking up at 4am my time and posting - it leads me to forget that basic bombs are fire damage. Whee! :P Okay, so ignore giving them DR; give them fire resistance.
From the sounds of it, what you're doing is not straying into the extreme case to which some people are referring: I've played under DMs before who literally tailored every encounter against the party's most powerful character - even encounters where the creatures should have no reasonable foreknowledge of the characters and thus couldn't prepare for them.
If, as it sounds, you're just working on the odd encounter where you throw a bit of extra challenge against him, then there's nothing wrong with that.
It sounds like your alchemist has the potential for nova damage. I can see how that might be a problem for presenting challenges with BBEGs. I'd suggest you make sure the party doesn't get into a comfortable five-minute workday, and occasionally divide encounters into multiple creatures. If you can make sure the alchemist doesn't enter every fight capable of unloading his full loadout in a single round against a solitary opponent, there shouldn't be as much of a problem.
And there's nothing wrong with having an easy fight on occasion. I've played in a hard campaign which was often satisfying, but it was always stressful. I ran an easy campaign and although I felt like I was letting my players down, they said multiple times that they felt like heroes compared to their previous campaign, so it wasn't all bad.
Note that mixing\throwing bombs provokes. You could throw some creatures against him with the Step Up and Combat Reflexes feats; this offers some (potentially avoidable) threat to any character that relies on actions that provoke to do damage.
Unless he's negated the AoO threat already via feats himself, of course.
Sundering is absolutely not unfair, but alchemist bombs and extracts can't be sundered.
Extracts and Bombs are abstract concepts as far as the rules are concered, they have no weight ,no hardness value, no hitpoints, no specific size and can be worn anywhere on the body and still be drawn as a no action.
So no you can't sunder bombs.Alchemists Kit yes but he will still have his daily alotment of bombs unless he does not have any extra katalyst flasks, wich he should have since they are free and as I said weightless.
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Smart bad guys take advantage of whatever they can. That's what keeps the game interesting.
I had a long-running game where a lot of characters had tattooed their bodies with magical tattoos...and caught them in a bad position, and destroyed all the tattoos by branding.
It kept the game interesting. They were getting VERY powerful, so I took them down a notch...it surprised them to realize that they were still quite powerful...and they did start back into tattooing themselves again. It kept the game at a much more even keel, and made for a very memorable encounter...and made that vengeance sweeter than just killing off another band of humanoids.
Judging someone for one encounter is beyond silly.
Can you sunder a spellcaster's prepared spells?
Same answer.
Followup question: Would you like to have the core rule book thrown at your head?
Same answer.
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@Xaratherus No his extracts are "infused" ( http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/alchemist.html#_inf usion ) , they don't go inert if he puts them down and he can give them to other players. Because he can't know upfront which extracts he will give to others and which not (and because that issue never came up), I assume that all extracts are infused "just in case" - so it is possible to snatch one. (At least until he tells me otherwise.) This would make for an interesting twist during one combat. - After one or two encounters I am pretty sure that this won't happen anymore, or he even could put some poison in a very prominent vial on his body - which I would appreciate as a clever move on his side. But that mutagen thing is a nice twist too.
Very bad assumption. A infusion last forever and eat a extract slot even if it is not in the alchemist possession. If a alchemist want to keep his extract slots he will not make infusion of all his extracts. 1 steal action and he will be out of one extract slot until he recover the infusion.
Infusion: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.
@tomorrow: an alchemist need to prepare his extracts and bombs in advance:
Mixing an extract takes 1 minute of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but it's not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed.
Same thing for the bombs, but apparently he can have a unlimited number of catalysts ready, independently from how many he can launch in a day:
In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
He don't carry that stuff safely in a alchemist kit, he has it somewhere in easy reach and where he know what extract is what.
n the other hand there is no way for an opponent to know what vial is what, so an enemy would destroy a random vial.
Very bad assumption. A infusion last forever and eat a extract slot even if it is not in the alchemist possession. If a alchemist want to keep his extract slots he will not make infusion of all his extracts. 1 steal action and he will be out of one extract slot until he recover the infusion.
Or he just prepares a new extract in that slot the same way a caster writes over a still prepared spell with a new prepared spell in the morning. Which in turn makes the existing Infusion occupying that slot go inert. *shrug*
I see nothing in Infusion saying that until someone drinks it, you cannot make use of the slot at all, which is what you are saying.
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Very bad assumption. A infusion last forever and eat a extract slot even if it is not in the alchemist possession. If a alchemist want to keep his extract slots he will not make infusion of all his extracts. 1 steal action and he will be out of one extract slot until he recover the infusion.Or he just prepares a new extract in that slot the same way a caster writes over a still prepared spell with a new prepared spell in the morning. Which in turn makes the existing Infusion occupying that slot go inert. *shrug*
I see nothing in Infusion saying that until someone drinks it, you cannot make use of the slot at all, which is what you are saying.
Read the citation Steam, it is very clear: "As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots."
Can you sunder a spellcaster's prepared spells?
Same answer.
You can sunder a caster's spell component pouch, so unless they have the Eschew Materials feat, the fact that they have the spells prepared is moot (at least for spells that have material components).
Price 25 gp; Weight 50 lbs.
An alchemist with an alchemy crafting kit is assumed to have all the material components needed for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those components that have a specific cost. An alchemy crafting kit provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks. (This item was previously called an “alchemist's kit”, and was renamed to avoid confusion with the set of adventuring gear called an “alchemist's kit.”)
Since this kit allows him to 'assume' that he has the material components for all three abilities, the opposite is true, and one can assume that if the kit is somehow stolen or destroyed, he does not have those.
The discussion re: bombs and having the components in various easy-to-reach places is irrelevant; like a spell component pouch, the rules assume that it is a free action (or part of the 'casting' action itself) to pull the necessary materials from the pouch in order to cast the spell (or in this case, prepare the bomb, down the extract, or drink the mutagen).
Yes, it is called having a ready action to hit the caster when he cast.
Ok, so allow the enemy to ready to sunder an alchemist's extract as he drinks it, then.
Read the citation Steam, it is very clear: "As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots."
Yeah, and as long as a prepared spell exists, it continues to occupy a caster's spell slot.
You can sunder a caster's spell component pouch, so unless they have the Eschew Materials feat, the fact that they have the spells prepared is moot (at least for spells that have material components).
Fortunately spell component pouches are light, cheap, and you're able to carry multiple of them. Also, sundering the pouch is a temporary inconvenience til someone can mend it, the components all fall out, but they aren't destroyed. So it's not even an issue over the length of a dungeon, long term.
Can you sunder these bottles?
Short answer on the bombs is no.
alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies.
Its not a bomb until the alchemist mixes it up, infuses it with some of his energy, and then chucks it. Until then its just a (free) piece of glass in his alchemists kit and the alchemist hasn't expended anything on it.
but do those bombs and bottles count as "worn" for the purpose of sundering?
For the extracts, i would imagine that the alchemist could simply carry so many bottles that the chances of hitting anything drop significantly.
Read the citation Steam, it is very clear: "As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots."Yeah, and as long as a prepared spell exists, it continues to occupy a caster's spell slot.
The difference is that in the case of a standard caster, a rogue or prankster bard can't sneak up to them and steal the spell out of their head and hide it, thereby keeping them from 'overwriting' that spell.
From a table perspective, would I allow an alchemist to willingly 'cancel' an infusion that was no longer in his possession? Probably. RAW, there's no mechanics listed for doing so.
You can sunder a caster's spell component pouch, so unless they have the Eschew Materials feat, the fact that they have the spells prepared is moot (at least for spells that have material components).Fortunately spell component pouches are light, cheap, and you're able to carry multiple of them. Also, sundering the pouch is a temporary inconvenience til someone can mend it, the components all fall out, but they aren't destroyed. So it's not even an issue over the length of a dungeon, long term.
I don't know that anyone is suggesting that it's a going to cause a long-term problem, but when done in combat at strategic times, it can sway the outcome of the fight. If the caster happens to have a second component pouch, it's not likely hanging at his or her belt (for the express purposes of protecting it from sundering), so if nothing else you're delaying that caster a round by forcing him to dig into a pack and pull out the spare.
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Can you sunder these bottles?Short answer on the bombs is no.
alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies.
Its not a bomb until the alchemist mixes it up, infuses it with some of his energy, and then chucks it. Until then its just a (free) piece of glass in his alchemists kit and the alchemist hasn't expended anything on it.
but do those bombs and bottles count as "worn" for the purpose of sundering?For the extracts, i would imagine that the alchemist could simply carry so many bottles that the chances of hitting anything drop significantly.
1) the "bomb" until infused with the alchemist power is a 1 ounce catalyst that he carry somewhere on his body. so, not "free", 16 to a lb. I can carry a low with little problem but not an unlimited number.
In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
2) Same thing for the extracts. The rules don't say how much an extract weight, but as it is compared to a potion a lot of times, it can be reasonably assumed that they wight as much as a potion: 1/16 of a pound. Not much, but as a alchemist will be carrying a lot of them the weight pile up. It all depend on how precise you want to be with carrying capacity and equipment.
I wouldn't treat extracts and bombs as no items without a real presence.|
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Read the citation Steam, it is very clear: "As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots."Yeah, and as long as a prepared spell exists, it continues to occupy a caster's spell slot.The difference is that in the case of a standard caster, a rogue or prankster bard can't sneak up to them and steal the spell out of their head and hide it, thereby keeping them from 'overwriting' that spell.
From a table perspective, would I allow an alchemist to willingly 'cancel' an infusion that was no longer in his possession? Probably. RAW, there's no mechanics listed for doing so.
The problem is that if you allow that alchemists would be selling "timed" potions (actually infusion) of any spell on their list for cheap.
Spellcasting cost Caster level × spell level × 10 gp?
With a archer or a 2 handed weapon user I would be very willing to pay double that for each day of shelf life to have a infusion of shield that will last a few days.
Or a infusion of alter self.
Or any other spells in the alchemist list with a range of personal.
The difference is that in the case of a standard caster, a rogue or prankster bard can't sneak up to them and steal the spell out of their head and hide it, thereby keeping them from 'overwriting' that spell.
From a table perspective, would I allow an alchemist to willingly 'cancel' an infusion that was no longer in his possession? Probably. RAW, there's no mechanics listed for doing so.
So if an alchemist still possessed his infusion and a new morning came around, you are saying he or someone else would have to chug the infusion before he would be allowed to re-designate that extract slot? Is that the "RAW"? I see nothing saying as much, and that seems like kind of an important detail.
If the caster happens to have a second component pouch, it's not likely hanging at his or her belt (for the express purposes of protecting it from sundering), so if nothing else you're delaying that caster a round by forcing him to dig into a pack and pull out the spare.
"If" is hardly even worth asking. And why wouldn't he have the pouches in easily reachable places, rather than in his backpack? Or hell, just keep them in a handy haversack. Even if he needs a move action to retrieve, he can 5 ft step back, free action retrieve the component from the retrieved pouch, and standard action cast.
The problem is that if you allow that alchemists would be selling "timed" potions (actually infusion) of any spell on their list for cheap.
Spellcasting cost Caster level × spell level × 10 gp?
With a archer or a 2 handed weapon user I would be very willing to pay double that for each day of shelf life to have a infusion of shield that will last a few days.
Or a infusion of alter self.
Or any other spells in the alchemist list with a range of personal.
I'm not seeing the "problem." You can already sell spellcasting services. And an infusion is not an extract, an alchemy or spellcraft check / detect magic will tell you as much right quick. So you can't trick someone into buying an infusion thinking it's a potion.
If they lack the means to ID but drink it soon after buying, the effect works anyway, no one cares.
If they lack the means to ID and don't drink it until much later... you could've fooled them with a bottle of anything (certainly at least a non-infusion extract) and ripped them off anyway.
What is the problem again? And why would you let some corner case of a player trying to cheat the system for money (as if none exist already) that will not come up in nearly any game allow you to rule that in order to curb stomp this abuse, you must rule that a single thief can ruin an alchemist forever by stealing all his infusions, never using them, and leaving him permanently crippled with no means at all of recovering from it? That's insane. Just completely freaking insane.
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It is hard to comprehend?
1) Infusion are better than potions as a alchemist can make a infusion of a any spell on his list, even those with a range of personal. so he can make infusions of spells like Shield, Alter self, See invisible and so on, spells that no other caster can cast on different targets;
2) If a alchemist can safely dismiss infusions he can safely sell them with the guarantee that they will last x days. That mean that the buyer will get the equivalent of a potions for:
a) a lower cost;
b) of spells that can't be made into potions.
3) spellcasting services are priced on the basis that they are done in a safe environment at the spellcaster shop. But the alchemist infusions can be stored in your backpack and used when needed. That is the reign of potions, that cost much more.
4) The rules of infusion are very simple: "they are persistent and as long as they exist they use a extract slot".
Nothing in the infusion description say that you can remove the power you stored in the infusion.
The only possible doubt is this piece in the extract description:
An extract, once created, remains potent for 1 day before losing its magic, so an alchemist must re-prepare his extracts every day. ]
The creator of the alchemist, James Jacobs said: "The infusion lasts until it is used." so I think that the extract limitation don't apply to the infusions.
The infusion lasts until it is used. That means if you give it to someone and they stash it away in a vault and never use it... you're kinda out that infusion slot and can't access it. Don't give infusions to your enemies!...
A infusion last only 24 hours, like a extract, or it last forever, tying down a alchemist extract slot until it is used?
And here I thought there was nothing worse in the entire game than being hit with 3E Mage's Disjunction.
Apparently having your infusions stolen is a fate worse than death and the best thing you can do in that situation is commit sepukku and bring in a new character. Holy ****.... At least the wizard can magically trap his spellbook, have duplicate copies, take the Spell Mastery feat, use spells to track down his stolen spellbook, etc... Just... f***ing wow...
Thief absconds with your infusions and intentionally hides them where you can't find them and you're permanently out all those spell slots with no recourse whatsoever to get them back.
EDIT: Actually, by RAW they can just smash the containers and the Alchemist is screwed without going through the trouble of hiding them. If the infusion seeps out of the broken containers and gets absorbed in the grass or a stream or something all diluted, it can never be "used," and thus never replaced either! Brilliant!
And here I was, hating Infusion "only" because it was a tax to do what other casters can do by default and STILL not actually get to multi-target spells like Haste. Turns out it's also a ticking time bomb waiting to neuter you beyond what any regen spell can fix, too!
All because to rule otherwise would let some NPC alchemist make a few extra bucks than normal. I'm just really disgusted right now.
I'm pretty surprised that's a creator's response. I can see how it has potential as a plot ("One of your infusions has been stolen! Track down the thief and fight two combats while dealing with your handicap!"), but I don't like the effect being that flavor of permanent. Most such setbacks are susceptible to a restoration, break enchantment, atonement, set time period or a level-up.
Thankfully, I imagine that it would usually take a GM contriving this situation to trigger it, and a GM's continued ire to maintain the loss of your infusions. Though I wonder if there are any alchemists that made their infusions, then pulled the classic "leave your gear behind to see where this underwater tunnel leads to" and never saw them again.
Oh well. I don't like it. Changed! Problem solved. Hell, I rewrote most magic items to knit themselves back together, so this is well within reach of my unfathomable generosity.
If the caster happens to have a second component pouch, it's not likely hanging at his or her belt (for the express purposes of protecting it from sundering), so if nothing else you're delaying that caster a round by forcing him to dig into a pack and pull out the spare."If" is hardly even worth asking. And why wouldn't he have the pouches in easily reachable places, rather than in his backpack? Or hell, just keep them in a handy haversack. Even if he needs a move action to retrieve, he can 5 ft step back, free action retrieve the component from the retrieved pouch, and standard action cast.
Keeping the pouches in "easily reachable places" potentially equates to "keeping them in places where they can be sundered."
As for a haversack? It can be sundered\attacked as well. It is a modification of a bag of holding based on its description; pierce a pocket, and everything in that pocket is lost forever. Magical bags are not foolproof; they have their weaknesses.
For what it's worth, I also disagree with JJ's ruling, and will house-rule that an alchemist can willingly 'shut off' an infusion when he's preparing his daily alchemy goodies, and that removing all or part of an infusion from its vial will automatically cause it to fall inert the next time the alchemist prepares.
@tomorrow
Dear tomorrow, I will ignore you for now on.
@Troubleshooter
You have no idea! I really love this group, best one I ever had... but that is also the problem. Just to show you how good my players are, and what I am dealing with:
Once I had a bunch eight ninjas attacking them on APL+1 or +2... in their home, while most of them where asleep, when they were mostly unprepared and had to equip themselves first. It was the "suddenly ninjas" start-encounter of the one part of my long-running campaign. ...and I really wanted to have ninjas at some point and start the adventure off with a "bang". I wanted to have something special, something out of the ordinary, something where the players were supposed to say: "He did WHAT?".
Because the ninjas took quite some time to shadow their targets and were well prepared, I took the liberty to add something, that should have given a little extra to this encounter: “Snatch Arrows” and “Snake Style”.
I ruled, “Yes Alchemist, they can throw your bombs back and they explode at your feet. And yes Gunslinger, they can also deflect you bullets. They are ninjas, ninjas are awesome. Period.” That might sound like I didn't put much reasoning into that decision, but I had a rather lengthy discussion with a few other GMs wether “Snatch Arrows” makes this possible or not. We came to the conclusion that it should, otherwise a bomb would never explode...
Also, you only have 'so much' options, if you have got two massive damage dealers in the player group, both of who attack their targets 'on touch' most of the time. And the rest isn't easier on the damage either, don't get me started on the ranger... I already tend to give the most enemies max HP, because otherwise the encounter is a smoldering arrow-spiked, half-way-disintergrated swiss cheese, before I am even done with noting down the initiative in the right order.
My idea was, if a ninja had snatched an bomb or deflected a bullet and sill had his immediate action, he could dodge the next bullet, bomb, ray or arrow with his "Snake Style".
“Ha!” I, the evil GM, said, “I finally found a realistic encounter that fits neatly into the story, will pose a challenge to them and will force them to come up with something out of the ordinary! But not before they took their part of the beating! HahaHa-HAhahaha!”
The ninjas died.
Horribly.
The players adapted, but were only slightly scratched. And (again) I was frustrated and proud at the same time. It didn't help that I was rolling crap on my end of the table. After the third bodge of my the 'deadly badass ninja assassins' I decided to roll the rest behind the screen... but their badassitude didn't improved from that.
...so to answer your question, I already tried to have more guys (with evasion).
@Xaratherus
Step Up is in fact one thing I considered but didn't came around to use yet.
@Steel Storm
Potion-vials do have stats. Extracts are pretty much the same as a potions, when it comes to how you use and store them. And... speaking about vials:
Quote:
“In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.”
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist
There, he carries vials on his body, ready to sunder... as opposed to “abstracts concepts” … seriously, that really made me chuckle.
@StreamOfTheSky
Can you steal a throwing dagger strapped to a thieves armor?
Same Answer.... or is it?
@ThatInfusionDiscussion
...aw, it would be downright stupid if an alchemist couldn't ever regain an stolen, infused extract. I am pretty sure that it goes inert the next day like the rest, as stated here:
Quote:
“An extract, once created, remains potent for 1 day before becoming inert, so an alchemist must re-prepare his extracts every day.”
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist
Also if you can't sunder such an extract, how exactly does he put it down then?
And finally:
@BigNoseWolf
No you can't sunder "the Bombs" but very well the vials containing the catalyst, robbing the alchemist of one charge per vial.
As far as the question of how long an Infusion lasts, it was brought up at least once before in a thread by Diego Rossi here. I recommend that discussion get moved back there as it is not what was originally asked in this thread.
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Same thing for the bombs, but apparently he can have a unlimited number of catalysts ready, independently from how many he can launch in a day:
In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.He don't carry that stuff safely in a alchemist kit, he has it somewhere in easy reach and where he know what extract is what.
On the other hand there is no way for an opponent to know what vial is what, so an enemy would destroy a random vial.Again, I'm aware.
I didn't mean kit as in the equipment item "alchemist kit", I meant as in his tools and components broadly speaking, his "kit" (i.e. all his vials, flasks, and other baubles). If you take away a wizard/sorcerer's components (usually via taking the pouch) there are some spells that can still be cast because they don't have a material component. Plus they have the Eschew Material feat (most sorcerer's get it for free baring some archetype choices) and some other feats that allow bypassing material components. Alchemists do not have that. Moreover, School powers and bloodline powers don't have material components, whilst Bombs do (or rather they have the catalysts).
Wizards and Sorcerers have fall-backs when you smash/steal their components. Alchemists do not. You smash all their baubbles and they have nothing (baring archetypes - a vivesectionist is still has sneak attack for example).
You are mixing things up.
1) the extracts and bomb catalysts are multiple items, so at most the attacker can destroy on with each sunder attempt, and a random one.
So the alchemist is hardly made powerless by the loss of one extract or catalyst, unless he store all of them in a single container. If he do that the error is his.
2) the alchemist field kit is a single item that can be sundered but it is not used during the combat, so that will have 0 impact on the alchemist performance. After the fight you can gather what is left of the kit, as what is sundered is the container not the content. I would probably rule that some of the material is ruined and the alchemist would need to do some kind of check to prepare a specific extract but he would be still capable to prepare most of them. I doubt that an alchemist is keeping all of his empty vials in the alchemist kit.
3) general comment: I find interesting that people tend to remove the caster classes weaknesses and then go around crying that the casters are too powerful.
The duration problem is one of the big limits to the use of infusion and it is very reasonable as a infusion is extremely potent as it allow access to spell like Shield, Alter Self, See invisible and so on to classes that normally can't access them without investing in UMD and wands. It simply limit the ability of the alchemist to buff others as no one can force him to learn the discovery or use it. So why you feel that there is the need to remove the limitation?
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3) general comment: I find interesting that people tend to remove the caster classes weaknesses and then go around crying that the casters are too powerful.
The duration problem is one of the big limits to the use of infusion and it is very reasonable as a infusion is extremely potent as it allow access to spell like Shield, Alter Self, See invisible and so on to classes that normally can't access them without investing in UMD and wands. It simply limit the ability of the alchemist to buff others as no one can force him to learn the discovery or use it. So why you feel that there is the need to remove the limitation?
I don't find it reasonable at all, simply because I can't think of a single analogous weakness among the other 'caster' classes. Or am I missing something, and there are literally ways to permanently bar a wizard\sorcerer\magus\etc. access to one or more of their daily spell slots?
Because that's what you're talking about, or at least the equivalent - permanent loss of a spell slot. I find that far too punitive - and to be honest, even if it only rarely occurs, it's enough to deter me from ever even considering the Infusion discovery.
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3) general comment: I find interesting that people tend to remove the caster classes weaknesses and then go around crying that the casters are too powerful.
What you are proposing is not the removal of a weakness, it is the addition of a new one.
And an annoying, un-fun, unnecessary one at that.
Making casters impossible, tedious, and un-fun to play doesn't fix them any more than me hiding your broken toaster under the couch fixes it.
In addition, 6 level casters aren't really the broken ones. Their spell lists are limited and generally end at the cut-off point of what I consider the truly broken spells becoming dime a dozen. So this random nerf is doubly pointless.
The duration problem is one of the big limits to the use of infusion and it is very reasonable as a infusion is extremely potent as it allow access to spell like Shield, Alter Self, See invisible and so on to classes that normally can't access them without investing in UMD and wands. It simply limit the ability of the alchemist to buff others as no one can force him to learn the discovery or use it. So why you feel that there is the need to remove the limitation?
Because, again, it is not an in-built limitation, and it is a frankly stupid and obnoxious attempt to use your own personal RAI as the actual RAW and then asking silly questions like "Why don't you like this thing I made up? It's the RULES!"
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3) general comment: I find interesting that people tend to remove the caster classes weaknesses and then go around crying that the casters are too powerful.
The duration problem is one of the big limits to the use of infusion and it is very reasonable as a infusion is extremely potent as it allow access to spell like Shield, Alter Self, See invisible and so on to classes that normally can't access them without investing in UMD and wands. It simply limit the ability of the alchemist to buff others as no one can force him to learn the discovery or use it. So why you feel that there is the need to remove the limitation?I don't find it reasonable at all, simply because I can't think of a single analogous weakness among the other 'caster' classes. Or am I missing something, and there are literally ways to permanently bar a wizard\sorcerer\magus\etc. access to one or more of their daily spell slots?
Because that's what you're talking about, or at least the equivalent - permanent loss of a spell slot. I find that far too punitive - and to be honest, even if it only rarely occurs, it's enough to deter me from ever even considering the Infusion discovery.
The way to remove the risk is easy: you prepare an infusion on the spot. After all you only need 1 minute to make it, so you leave a few slots open and prepare the infusion just before it is needed.
Use the Shatter spell. It's part of the reason I'll never play an alchemist.
Use the Shatter spell. It's part of the reason I'll never play an alchemist.Shatter won't shatter magical items. Extracts, bombs, and mutagens are magical items. The catalysts don't say they are magical, but I think you need LOS/LOE to them, which depending upon the container, you may or may not have. Plus, I'm not sure whether the vials would be considered attended or not, which would also be a problem.
Likewise, it occurs to me that the catalyst vials are a silly thing to sunder anyway. Destroying a catalyst vial doesn't deny an alchemist one of his bombs.
PRD (Bombs):
In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.An alchemist could have as many catalyst vials on his/her person as they want (most create enough for a given day, but there is no limit, no real associated cost, and they last for years) and if they are sundered they could just whip up a new catalysts for use later in the day. Until they actual make the bombs, the bombs haven't been used up.
Given that, its a much better idea to target the container(s), as at least that takes away the bomb option for that encounter/combat.
If an alchemist has all his non-magical vials shattered, He's s.o.l once he uses his currently prepared stuff until he can restock. That can be a long time.
While the alchemist's class entry mentions vials as storage for catalysts, extracts, etc., nowhere it states that they have to be made of glass.
From the CRB:
A vial is made out of glass or steel and holds 1 ounce of liquid.
So 'steel' is a viable option here. Not susceptible to Shatter spells, hardness 10, alchemist is happy.
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Use the Shatter spell. It's part of the reason I'll never play an alchemist.Shatter won't shatter magical items. Extracts, bombs, and mutagens are magical items. The catalysts don't say they are magical, but I think you need LOS/LOE to them, which depending upon the container, you may or may not have. Plus, I'm not sure whether the vials would be considered attended or not, which would also be a problem.
Likewise, it occurs to me that the catalyst vials are a silly thing to sunder anyway. Destroying a catalyst vial doesn't deny an alchemist one of his bombs.
PRD (Bombs):
In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.An alchemist could have as many catalyst vials on his/her person as they want (most create enough for a given day, but there is no limit, no real associated cost, and they last for years) and if they are sundered they could just whip up a new catalysts for use later in the day. Until they actual make the bombs, the bombs haven't been used up.
Given that, its a much better idea to target the container(s), as at least that takes away the bomb option for that encounter/combat.
If an alchemist has all his non-magical vials shattered, He's s.o.l once he uses his currently prepared stuff until he can restock. That can be a long time.
Shatter's aoe shattering doesn't affect attended objects, l2readspells.