Help Understanding Magic

[Neros]

Hello Paizo Community

Me and my players have played D20 for some time now, and we finally started getting tired of headaches and frustrations from trying to figure out how to explain the difference between divine casters and arcane casters spells.

As fare as I've understood, spellcasters can only cast the spells on their list, unless they create their own. But its very puzzling that there are some spells the wizard can't make/have. Like create water for example. He can create mighty torrents of water to batter his foes, summon a downpour to soak them, ect.. But for some reason, creating water to drink is something he can't do (if I've understood it correctly).. It all just seems VERY wibble woobly to us..

What Im hoping for, is if there is someone whom can help me understand, and in turn explain to my wizard player, what the difference and boundries are between the two types of spells. What he can and can't create/learn..

Or suggest another method which makes the two types of magic much more unique and different, so its easier to tell them appart instead of saying: you can't cast that, even though you clearly have the understanding and abilities to..

Kind regards
Neros

[Voyd211]

The best I can figure is this: Divine magic comes from the gods. Arcane magic comes from the self.

As far as create water, there I'm just as lost as you.

[Claxon]

I find the easiest thing is to not really let players create custom magic spells. Too often they can easily be overpowering if you're not particularly keen in watching over and thinking out the consequneces of allowing a particular spell. One thing I would allow though is creating a spell that does a different damage type for instance. Some may argue that this replicates one of the metamagic fetas but what I suggest is that instead of fireball you have a lightning ball that fucntions exactly the same except for the energy type (or course even this too can be overpowered). But then you only get lightning ball and not fireball, you can't switch energy type without the metamagic feat.

As far as telling the difference between arcane and divine magic, I'm not sure there is a hard and fast rule for it. In fact, some spells are shared by both. And then you have the bard, which is arcane caster but casts spells that are much more like divine spells. I guess divine spells are most of your healing and buffing spells while a lot of damage and debuff spells are arcane. That still isn't a great guideline though.

Perhaps someone can provide much better insight than I can.

[Donald Robinson]

This is based on my understandings. I could take the easy way and say that it is because of tradition, but I'll manage a real explanation.

Divine casters aren't truely casting magic in the same sense as an arcane caster. Divine casters have their spells gifted to them. So it is easy for a cleric or druid to create water by request. The spells they cast become more powerful because they garner more attention and ability to wield the powers granted to them. Divine casters can lose their spells at any time should they lose connection from thier divine source (i.e. being shunned by their god, or a druid wearing metal armor).

Arcane casters develop to use magic on their own, either innate (sorcerer) or through study (wizard). At first, arcanists are unable to create anything that lasts. Thus though they may create water, it would disappear after a short time and then they would not get any real benefit from drinking it. Prestidigitation only lasts an hour. Later, as arcanists become more powerful and more intune with magic, they can begin to create permanent effects, objects, etc. as they begin to start reaching closer to the powers wielded by demi-gods, evil and good outsiders, even minor gods at much higher levels.

It is ultimately up to the GM to determine the dividing line between what can be arcane or divine casters only. Something, like create water, really isn't game breaking. I've been in high magic games where divine magic was very limited, and we were allowed to research spells as arcanist that mimicked divine spells. If the GM wants to allow this, that is perfectly okay, but it will cause some people to shy away from divine and instead try to do everything as an arcanist, the reverse is also true. The line between the two is partly for flavor and balance, but also to try to prevent certain staple classes from being obsolete (at least sticking to strickly core rules).

Again, this is just my take on things. Ultimate answer: The GM can decide how much/little he wants of researching magic and crossing the line between spellcasters. If he realizes that he made a mistake, he can talk to the players to fix it. If the entire group is having fun, and no one in the group is bothered by it, feel free to allow as much mixing as the group wishes. It is a game, and the important thing is just that everyone is having fun.

[ArgentumLupus]

Can arcane casters create water of any sort? I've only ever seen spells that create the energy types for arcane, but not water (aside from summoning a water elemental, but it might get a tad bit pissed if you tried drinking it).

[Ninja in the Rye]

Neros wrote:

Hello Paizo Community

instead of saying: you can't cast that, even though you clearly have the understanding and abilities to.

You don't have the understanding and the abilities, that's, like, the entire point of the spell list.

If you're trying to compare Create Water to a spell like Hydraulic Push, you're ignoring the difference between evoking a sudden burst of water that will vanish as quickly as it came with creating life sustaining drinking water that won't magically vanish if consumed.

[Karnas Sunderscale]

As per above, plus the following: Arcane spells allow the manipulation of something that is there already, i.e. a body of water that is divine in nature because a God in a pantheon created that water and morphically placed it where it is. This natural substance may be arcanely "adjusted" to do any number of things, BUT may not be created because creation of something that is naturally occurring is divine.
That being said, a shirt is not a "naturally" occurring item so a spell of creation in the arcane realm could replicate it.
I would assume that said wizard "creating" a downpour to soak his foes is merely manipulating the water that is already around him (in clouds or just as humidity) and then channeling it in a way that is conduscive to his needs. Technically he could use this type of overpowered spell to fill canteens should his party be in desperate need of water, but the actual genesis of water is left up to his divine counterpart since this is tied to a divine being.
Divine magic is a manifestation of a Gods power which is temporarily imbued in the vessel of their worship---a cleric. Whereas arcane magic is a "force", an "essence" which belongs to no God or mortal, but which can be harnessed to either of their needs or whims.
I hope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you need anymore advice. Good luck!

[Kolokotroni]

ArgentumLupus wrote:

Can arcane casters create water of any sort? I've only ever seen spells that create the energy types for arcane, but not water (aside from summoning a water elemental, but it might get a tad bit pissed if you tried drinking it).

Hydrolic Push and Hydrolic Torrent.

To the OP, basically it is a matter of niche more then rational divide. Divine magic is better at support, healing, buffing, aiding. Arcane magic is better at doing, injuring, blasting, crippling, killing. Both divine and arcane magic can do all of these things, one is just better then the other at it. Create water (usually) is a support spell, to provide sustenance to allies. That falls into divine magic's pervue. There isnt much of a reason for it more then a convention. Given how varied the things each kind of magic can do at this point, trying to come up with an explanation of why or how the difference exists in world if going to be a pain.

One option, which I am considering is to remove the wizard and sorceror from the game, and replace them with 2 3rd party classes. The Riven Mage and the Magister

I think that would provide a more significant divide in the magics of the 'wizard' (riven mage has a set of basic spells they can pump energy into) and the sorceror (the magister can combine multiple spell lists including arcane and divine since their magic isn't studied but inherent) and the divine magic of clerics and druids which are granted by the heavens.

[Mikhail]

If arcane spellcasters in your group want to cast Create Water, quick solution is:

Pathfinder Companion: Sargava, the Lost Colony wrote:

Two-World Magic

You have bridged the gap between the natural magic of the Mwangi peoples and the refined magic of the Chelish colonists.

Benefit: Select one 0-level spell from a class spell list other than your own. This spell is a 0-level spell on your class spell list (or a 1st-level spell if your class doesn't have 0-level spells). For example, if you are a druid, you could select mage hand and thereafter prepare it as a 0-level druid spell; if you are a sorcerer, you could select know direction as a 0-level sorcerer spell known.

Voila!

[Neros]

Thanks allot for the replies people :)

Voyd211
I am aware that there is a difference.. Or at least, they keep making it seem like there should be a difference, but when it comes down to it, there is, to me and my players, very little reason for there being a difference mechanic/fluff-wise, especially since they have made a class with both arcane and divine magic... Damnable bards :P

Clarox
I've played D20 for some time, and feel comfortable letting them come up with their own ideas, being able to gauge which level the spell should be placed at.. I've also done what you are suggesting with a couple spells myself :)

And yea, the bard and the fact that they have some of the same spells, pretty much messes up the feel that arcane and divine is two different things.

Donald Robinson:
What you have described is also how I understand divine and arcane, and really like to get that feel. But rulewise, its very bad at simulating that feel. And create water only lasts a day, so its not permanent, and the wizard can cast very lasting spells like mount, which I see no reason that the cleric can't have since they are also able to call beings from other planes.

So that is my problem. I can't find any dividing line, except for cure spells and restoration spells, which solely are on the clerics side, which in a sense can be explained since they tap into the positive plane, and wizards have no spells (except disrupt undead and infernal healing) that does that. But yet, they can still tap into the negative plane for some reason.
And its not only create water. Either the wizard or the cleric, should be able to have or simulate the effects of for example: Remove poison, poison, delay/accelerate poison, acid arrow, tsunami, destruction, mount, ect..

So as fare as I can see, there is no real guideline to tell who can what when it comes to making your own spells, and I want to allow my players the freedom of coming up with their own spells since that is basically what the wizard does. But neither me or the players have any real idea on what is "allowed". I know I can just say to heckel with it and allow them to make any spell. But then that difference completely disappears, which isn't what I want either. But I can try and go through it with them about, because you are right about the fact that if they all are having fun, then there is no real reason not to just let it go :)

ArgentumLupus
Yea, they get/can get something called hydraulic push and drench. And even without these spells (only with the core ones), I see very little reason why a wizard shouldn't be able to create water. They can create acid, rocks or a rain of frogs..

Ninja in the Rye
Well then, the cleric can for some reason create lasting water but not bursts of water. And I see no reason why a follower of Gozreh shouldn't be granted such a blessing. Or drench which is also a 0 level spell, which creates water, but doesn't stay for more than 1 round (however this would be useless if you had create water).

And I would say with some of them, they should have the understanding to use the spell. Like both have summon monster, but only one of them have the Mount spell. So they have the knowledge/gift/skill to bring beings from one place to another, but cannot make it last longer because the spell is already on the others list (as mentioned, thats how I understand the mechanic. The spells on one side cannot be on the other unless its already there in the core rules).

Karnas Sunderscale
Okay, I'll throw a PM at you and see if it will yield any results :P

Kolokotroni
Yea, me and my players are all feeling that pain :P
But we all want to allow the wizard to be a wizard and allow him to roleplay how he tinkers with arcane rules and draws mystic graphs. But we can't find the guide to what he can't and can create, and find little reason for not being able to create certain things (water is just one of the most obvious ones).

Is the riven mage still able to perform research and learn new things? And is there things he can't research like create water?

Mikhail
Funny thing is, we are actually playing the serpent skull campaign, so they are on their way to Sargava :P
But why should he take a feat when he can just make a spell that creates water? Or why can't he create a spell that summons a deadly poison or make a enchantment spell that removes the effect of fear since they already know how to invoke fear?

[Jeven]

The differences are a bit fuzzy in many cases.

Going back to the original D&D spells were really originally based on flavor:

- Divine spells were largely based on Biblical stories and medieval legends of miracles performed by saints, so you have everything from feeding the hungry, to healing the sick, to walking on water, to exorcising demons, to the fire-and-brimstone type retribution of a flame strike.

- Whereas arcane spells come from stories of wizard-powers in myth and legend, and fantasy literature. It tends to exclude the stuff that religious miracle-workers do.

In game-terms you could probably just say that the gods seized control of certain types of magic near the beginning of time which prevents non-religious practitioners of magic from tapping into it.

[AnnoyingOrange]

I'd just treat any spell not on the spell list of one class as two levels higher, in most cases this will make a spell less than worthwhile to take but it is theoretically possible.

Wizards can cast lesser restoration as a lvl 4 spell, restoration as a 6th lvl spells, raise dead as a 7th lvl spell and resurrection as a 9th lvl spell, it will not unbalance anything really, orisons will be fine just being a single level higher.

I rather deal with restricted but more thematic spell lists and just forget about wizards and clerics as they are now.

[Neros]

Jeven
Hehe, yea, I reconized some of the more.. Biblical spells :P and mostly, they are the ones thats not on the wizards list.

But the idea is a good one, but still, with the power of science or the gods, shouldn't both cleric and wizard be able to gain certain spells? Like the followers of Gozreh should probably have water/air related spells like hydraulic push, or another cleric whom follow a travel oriented god should be able to summon a mount to carry them and their companions.

Or create a transmutation spell that purges toxins and poisons from a target.. Also, in ultimate magic, there is a healing spell called infernal healing, which everyone can get by following a certain god. Even arcane casters can get this..

AnnoyingOrange
I thought about something similar as a "fix", but not sure if it would make that dividing less vauge.. But I can try to suggest it to my players.

[Alzrius]

Neros, you bring up some good points. As I see it, there are really two things that you're bringing up.

The first one is a general (and valid) complaint that, from an in-game standpoint, there don't seem to be many arcane spells that have non-combat applications, whereas many cleric spells do have such applications.

This is true if you look only at the spells in the Core Rulebook. While I suppose that you could color this as part of the differences between divine and arcane magic, it does - as you noted - seem odd that a wizard can conjure up energies for attacking and defending, but nothing else. How is it that someone can use a fireball but not cast a spell to dry their clothes when they get wet?

There are some third-party products that have (what I think are) excellent solutions to this, including some great free resources. I posted more about this on my blog, but unfortunately Paizo's filters make the existing URL not work; as such, if you click on the following link: From Somebody Else's Cutting Room Floor, and then click forward to the next article, "B+%%! be Cantrippin'" you'll find it there.

As to the second part of your question - what's the general difference between arcane and divine magic - well, there's also a blog post for that, in this case a series of them: It's a Kind of Magic.

Hopefully those help!

[Ansel C. Krulwich]

Alzrius wrote:

How is it that someone can use a fireball but not cast a spell to dry their clothes when they get wet?

Umm... Wizards can dry clothes just fine using prestidigitation. It's the first thing we learn in school shortly after the hazing rituals.

[Kolokotroni]

Neros wrote:

Kolokotroni

Yea, me and my players are all feeling that pain :P
But we all want to allow the wizard to be a wizard and allow him to roleplay how he tinkers with arcane rules and draws mystic graphs. But we can't find the guide to what he can't and can create, and find little reason for not being able to create certain things (water is just one of the most obvious ones).

The problem is Niche protection. The wizard can already do a whole heck of alot of things. If you let him expand his spell list, you run a very strong risk of letting them do EVERYTHING. I personally dont allow research of spells that are similar to divine spells. For the most part research is to add spells from sourcebooks not currently in use in the standard spell list at my table.

Otherwise you might was well just have one spell list, MAGE, and let the wizard pick from all of it. If it just takes research to add cleric spells to wizard lists, then presumably wizards in the past have already done it. Its kind of why I like the magister, a single unified caster class, that can fill any of the caster niches (besides maybe druid or summoner).

Quote:

Is the riven mage still able to perform research and learn new things? And is there things he can't research like create water?

No, the riven mage has a VERY limited set of things they can do with their spells. Which is kind of the point. Vancian (standard) magic hs gotten kind of rediculous since the game started. I think there are probably too many spells at this point, and the list could use some heavy pairing down.

[Alzrius]

Ansel C. Krulwich wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

How is it that someone can use a fireball but not cast a spell to dry their clothes when they get wet?

Umm... Wizards can dry clothes just fine using prestidigitation. It's the first thing we learn in school shortly after the hazing rituals.

For an hour, and then they get wet again when the duration wears off.

More seriously though, the example may have been lacking, but the basic idea is still true. Prestidigitation and unseen servant can do a lot, but there's also a lot they can't do, such as stopping you from having unpleasant dreams and assuring that you have an uninterrupted night's sleep, or fix a toothache (for more than an hour).

[Ansel C. Krulwich]

Alzrius wrote:

Ansel C. Krulwich wrote:

Alzrius wrote:

How is it that someone can use a fireball but not cast a spell to dry their clothes when they get wet?

Umm... Wizards can dry clothes just fine using prestidigitation. It's the first thing we learn in school shortly after the hazing rituals.

For an hour, and then they get wet again when the duration wears off.

Nope. Cleaning (or soiling) an object persists after the hour duration. Your robes change from pink and baby blue back to their normal colors after an hour.

The humiliation, however, lasts for a lifetime.

[EldonG]

You make an excellent point with Create Water.

If you want, just put it on the wizard's list. It's not like there's a thematic or balance issue...it's just that the cleric has historically provided nourishment. If you'd prefer, just let the wizard research it, and add it to his list. Again, no problem.

I'd stay away from the obvious thematic issues...but other than that, it's in the rules that wizards can write their own spells...just be real careful about the spell power...and estimate on the high side for level, if you have any doubt. You should do fine. :)

[Alzrius]

Ansel C. Krulwich wrote:

Nope. Cleaning (or soiling) an object persists after the hour duration.

You're probably right, but some raving dork could look at what's there and say "nope, it says what it does lasts only for 1 hour."

[awp832]

Neros: Consider it to be about learning. It's not that you (the wizard) *cant* learn how to mimick divine spells (create water, for example) its that you *dont*. Let me illustrate by example:

You're playing baseball. You play first base. You want to become the best darn first baseman there ever was. You'll practice catching, hitting, throwing. You'll learn the rules and train to run fast and work on your coordination. You're probably not going to learn how to pitch. Being able to throw a 70mph fastball with wicked accuracy just isnt relevant to your particular field. You don't need to know how to put spin on a ball so that it curves in a wildly different direction at the last second, that isn't really important to being a first baseman. Is it related in a peripheral sort? Well yes, it's a huge part of baseball. It's just not the part of baseball that you specialize in.

Do you see where I'm going here? You could learn to create water, but why would you? That doesn't advance you on your goals of being the best darn wizard ever. It's not a building block to learning more advanced wizardry, so there's no reason to go out of your way to learn it. This is why it's not on the wizard's spell list.

Now, if you REALLY wanted to go out of your way to learn it, then you can do spell research and research an arcane variant of the spell. But it's going to take a lot of time, and a lot of effort that you could be putting towards other things.

[Neros]

Alzrius
Took a quick look at the PDF (busy weekend) and can't say to much about it yet. I also read the article about magic, and I must say that it was just fantastic. It gives a very good description about how magic works and Im definatly gona give it to my wizard player for reading so he easier can try an explain to those simpleminded people, how magic works.

But it still don't cover the problem I am having, since the rules don't explain the above workings of magic. How can I explain to myself and my players, why they can't make a spell that creates water or summons a mount (as fare as I've understood, the rules for creating spells isen't solely for the wizard).

Kolokotroni
That is one of the dilemas. Me and my player want a clear line on what he can do when creating his own spells, and we don't want him to just overtake the whole spell arena. Also, what if he created his very own unique spell, and then Paizo releases a book with that spell/effect for the cleric/other caster? I know the answer to this one, but rulewise, he wouldn't be able to cast/create it.

Kolokotroni wrote:

No, the riven mage has a VERY limited set of things they can do with their spells. Which is kind of the point. Vancian (standard) magic hs gotten kind of rediculous since the game started. I think there are probably too many spells at this point, and the list could use some heavy pairing down.

Agreed. The mechanic is more or less okay for a PC game since there is so little freedom. But for a real roleplaying group, it can get abit hard.

I wouldn't mind having a completly new system, where divine and arcane magic REALLY had different mechanics, so that each had different ways of handling magic.

EldonG
Create water is just one example. As mentioned here and there, Im looking for a "line" to give to my player so he knows what he can and can't create. That goes both for wizards and clerics.. And if he just gets the spell, the dividing line between the two spells become even more none existing.

awp832
I understand. But what is the best darn wizard? What makes him the best? What if you have a wizard that wants to create magic that can be of use for the people around him, help a community? He would definatly want to go in the direction of something like create water, remove poison, ect.. Would that make him less of a wizard?

But what makes something a divine spell besides "its on the cleric's/paladin's/druid's spell list"? How do I give myself and my player something to go on when making spells? Could a wizard create a spell give a subject the foresight to become better at catching fish, adding +5 to Proffesion: fisher/survival?

[Worldbuilder]

This may be off topic, but it may help. It also may hinder, but I'll give my limited input anyway.

A few years back I ran a PF Dark Sun game. Dark Sun hadn't been updated since 2e, so I put a lot of leg work into a arcane/divine/psionic system.

In Dark Sun(a 2e setting), there are no gods, but the elemental planes and Sorcerer-Kings (semi-godlike dragon creatures) were the granters of divine powers. There were 8 elementals(clerics) (sub elements were in there too) and 7 legal sorcerer kings(templars) I believe. Psionics is also prevalent in the world (so much so that nearly every race starts with innate psionic powers.)

Arcane magic, I left completely untouched, except added some rules on hiding it (arcane magic is illegal). With Divine Magic, I took every cleric/templars spell list and customized them based off the deity. This vastly brought down their spell list, which had a few interesting effects. First off, each (semi) deity felt like a god. He had different spells, having to do closely with what he was and represented. Why do healing gods and destruction gods both grant access to restoration? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I know several times my players commented on how much more a feeling of divinity they got with these rules. Secondly, it helped make a stronger divide of arcane vs. divine. All arcane casters could share spells and cast each others spells, but not all divine casters could. Helped make them feel different.

Now from the Game world standpoint, they also function differently. Divine spells may fail (small chance but there) while arcane spells can defile the earth to draw more power to cast. Only arcane casters got epic level spells, though divine casters did get the spell slots. Arcane casters had to hide or disguise their casting as psionics or divine spells.

That campaign had a greater divide than any campaign I have ever played in or ran. The divide between the magics (and psionics), although the fact that Athas deals with each of them in its own harsh way plays a role there too.

I'm tired, and I'm thinking this is totally off topic now, so probably just disregard it. All in all though, if you really want to bring the magic system to life I would do the grueling task of dividing divine spells by god/portfolio whatever. It was wonderful, but a giant pain. It really breathed a lot of life into the world and my players still talk about it. But that was hard then, now with even more splat it would be a painstaking journey.

You can also add rules to separate the two and how they function. Magical/psionic semi-transparency rules would be the best starting point. They should interact, but not completely. Or you could use complete non-transparency, though it gets a little tricky. Some good partial transparency rules are:

Detect magic: detects the presence of the opposing magic auras, but not the strength or school.
Dispel Magic: checks that target the opposing magic are manifested at a -4 penalty

I have a whole slew of them for magic vs. psionic, but some take more work for magic than I'm willing to put in at the moment.

I don't think you can ever expect Paizo or Wizards to put out rules for Arcane/Divine to function. There is so little pay out for it, that few people would buy them, and fewer still would use them. I like the concept, but know it increases work loads on GM's and players too.

[Neros]

Worldbuilder
Don't know If it is that much off-topic, but I will definitely take that to me and ask my players about their thoughts about it. It could be cool if each cleric was abit more special and was more defined by the god they where following instead of just a couple spells and abilities.

Im thinking removing some of the spells from the general cleric list, and adding some to the domain list, so that they get more than one spell from their domain.

General Reply to the People
First of, thanks for the posts so fare people. Great talks, angles and input. Regrettably, no conclusive answer has been reached yet, but I think I have a better way to ask my question, which may make it more clear what I am asking:

How do I and my player, decide/evaluate what spells he can and can't create/research? What makes a idea for a spell divine or arcane?

[EldonG]

Neros wrote:

Worldbuilder

Don't know If it is that much off-topic, but I will definitely take that to me and ask my players about their thoughts about it. It could be cool if each cleric was abit more special and was more defined by the god they where following instead of just a couple spells and abilities.

Im thinking removing some of the spells from the general cleric list, and adding some to the domain list, so that they get more than one spell from their domain.

General Reply to the People
First of, thanks for the posts so fare people. Great talks, angles and input. Regrettably, no conclusive answer has been reached yet, but I think I have a better way to ask my question, which may make it more clear what I am asking:

How do I and my player, decide/evaluate what spells he can and can't create/research? What makes a idea for a spell divine or arcane?

Whether you decide it needs to come from a god, or not. *shrug*. Anything can be researched...it's up to you to decide if it's viable. Ultimately, if you feel there's too much overlap with cleric spells, and would make the cleric less important, don't allow it.

Really, there's no clear-cut lines. There's a lot of overlap. You're asking for something that doesn't exist. You just need to make a judgement call on each individual spell...and if you want, modify it so it does work. Research doesn't always go as planned.

[Worldbuilder]

Hey, I really dig multiple spells per domain actually. Only thing to be weary of there is that there are druid and cleric archetypes that can spontaneously cast their domain spells.

I'm going to ignore the: What makes a idea for a spell divine or arcane? part of your question and focus on the first. The 2nd is too complicated and has too many nuances. Its been a long long time since I had anyone make a spell, so take this how you will.

First, I would not tell me player what spells he can and can't make. I would let him create him. I think of him as an inventor...think Edison and the lightbulb (10k attempts to get it right). He shouldn't necessarily know if what hes making is going to work. Hopefully he has enough understanding of magic to have some idea of what may work.

Second, I would only allow wizards and alchemists to make spells/extracts, but thats a preference thing.

Third, Have him turn in the spell(s). Tell him you'll get back to him before next session. Make him roll his spellcrafts and pay his gold. Analyze the spells. Are they level appropriate. Analyze other spells of that level, the level above the level below, on both the arcane and divine spell list. Does it do something another spell already does? If so, either he learns that spell, or if it does it better/worse and is level appropriate, thats fine. The biggest area of abuse I think would be school of magic or wrong spell list. Is he trying to sidestep an opposition school making a power thats clearly enchantment transmutation b/c he wants that power. If so, and everything else is balanced, change it to the appropriate school, and let him learn it still...danf he got it but it eats 2 spell slots, exactly what he was trying to avoid.

Unfortunately there is no hard rule for this, and it will be largely up to you as a GM to moderate. If you look it over, and are still conflicted, come to the boards and ask. People will give their opinions (some may not even be smart asses about it).

[awp832]

[q]awp832
What if you have a wizard that wants to create magic that can be of use for the people around him, help a community? He would definatly want to go in the direction of something like create water, remove poison, ect.. Would that make him less of a wizard?[/q]

If he wanted to be the type of caster that helped out the people around him, he would be a cleric.

[q]But what makes something a divine spell besides "its on the cleric's/paladin's/druid's spell list"? How do I give myself and my player something to go on when making spells? Could a wizard create a spell give a subject the foresight to become better at catching fish, adding +5 to Proffesion: fisher/survival?[/q]

There's something different about the nature of magic. Divine magic draws its powers from the gods. If your god is good, it means your god wants to help humanity, and will provide you with spells that help you cure the sick, provide food and water for those who need it, etc. Occaisionally there's some evil smiting involved.

Arcane magic as it is known in pathfinder, is primarily the creation of the races of Golarion. Every spell that is in the book was at some point researched and created by somebody. In essence, the spell list is a historical account of the collective work of the most successful wizards. Historically it seems most wizards have researched spells to improve their personal power.

If you want to try to buck that trend, you've got some work to do ahead of you. You could delve into parts unknown and try to figure things out for yourself and research new spells. But you have zilch to go on, nobody who has tried that sort of thing before you, so it's going to take a lot. It's going to take real spell research. OR you could go the easy way and just pledge yourself to a beneficent deity (or the ideals of good in general) and receive your spells right away, such that you can begin helping people right away. Most people would choose the latter.

[Neros]

Worldbuilder

Worldbuilder wrote:

Hey, I really dig multiple spells per domain actually. Only thing to be weary of there is that there are druid and cleric archetypes that can spontaneously cast their domain spells.

Really? Havn't seen any of those archtypes. Can you point me in their general whereabouts?

But its a shame you're gona ignore that part of the question since thats one of the things I would like answered. But I havn't experienced it before either, that a player wanted to make his own spells, so I've never really looked into it. But now one have created this awesome concept for a wizard whom is buzzing with ideas which isn't on the wizards list (or for any other list for that matter). So it would be nice to be able to give him some guidelines.

Worldbuilder wrote:

Second, I would only allow wizards and alchemists to make spells/extracts, but thats a preference thing.

Isn't that what they more or less do? Can't see why they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

But so fare, you are right about that there isn't really any easy way to give the player (or myself) something to go by. So I will just have to talk it through with him.. The only problem however, is if he makes a spell and Paizo later releases a spell for the cleric which does the same thing.. *joink*, sorry mate, thats now a Cleric spell according to the rules...... I would never do that. The players well being comes before the books :P

awp832

awp832 wrote:

If he wanted to be the type of caster that helped out the people around him, he would be a cleric.

I disagree on that. To me, if someone wants to use magic to help others they don't need to follow a gods doctrines. Like, if a fighter wants to help others, that doesn't make him into a.. Paladin... Or city guard..

And I am well aware that there is suppose to be a difference in how the two types of magic works, but so fare, the rules are very bad at emulating that fluff, which makes it hard making ones own spells.

[Worldbuilder]

My Bad- The Theologian (Cleric Archetype) can use non-domain slots to memorize domain spells, but not to spontaneous cast, which really isn't too bad. Both the Storm druid and Urban druid can spontaneously cast their domain spells. I really don't think its that bad as they give up spontaneous summon ally (which is really good), just something to be aware of.

AWP did make me think of something though, and that's the expansion of magic in a world. How old is magic? Is it an ancient unchanging thing? Maybe that's why there isn't anything written about what can and can't be done with it. The old coot teachers teach by the book because magic has "been discovered." Or maybe its really young, so there isn't a set way to come up with formulas, yet. Or maybe its theory craft. Or it could be more like the advancement of technology. They are making new things all the time, and you want to design the best. In that case maybe you create a lot of "theory" on how creation works, but maybe it all doesn't work..or maybe it all doesn't work all the time.

Hmm, you know word casting may be cool if you have someone creating his own spells.

And I wouldn't worry about a new splat book that says its a cleric spell. "If" it happens just roll with it. I wouldn't take it from the player either. Either remove it from the cleric spell list for that game, or just brush it off. I can't imagine it could happen more than twice or so, and its not a huge deal.

I didn't want to tackle the divine/arcane difference b/c it has a ton to do with setting, interpretation, pantheon, etc. Without having a lot of details its hard to tell the difference, and really other than spells on list, there isn't a lot of difference in most worlds (as they function nearly identical.) If I know about your setting I can attempt to answer it, not that my interpretation will be right or anything:)

[Neros]

Worldbuilder
Okay, I will then. But I tried taking a look at it, and I must say that there is allot of things to look at since there are many domains. But as you said, it may give the players playing a cleric, a much better feel of "each god being different".

But it looks like there is no real solution to the problem, so I've decided to just throw a goblin at it and allow my player to make what his little imagination can come up with.

BUT, I've thought about which could help on it, but which Im not 100% sure of, is to "remove" the "school" on the cleric's spells. I thought and philosophy-wise, It could make sense that people can't "explain" how the magic is created like with arcane spells.

Like when a wizard tries to analyze a spell cast by a cleric, he can't recognize the patterns, the incantations, the "science", that makes it happen. It just.. Happens.. He could recognize the effect that it creates (example, bulls strength), but how, where and when it is done, is beyond science..