In one of my groups, everyone likes doing damage and no one other than me likes playing pure casters. I'm wanting to fill a combat role this time, and not be the BSF. We're a party of 4 and two players are dead set on a gun slinger and Magus, which then leaves me and one other. The other player really hates casters, and I don't want to force her into that role. I'm playing a Mystic Theurge in another game and a druid (caster focused) in yet another. Could we easily get by if she and I both played melee oriented characters, or will one of us need to bite the bullet and go straight caster?
As long as you have 1 spellcaster of [i]some[/s]i sort, you're fine.
It's important to be able to Detect Magic and to have an unlimited light source, as well as the utility of the higher level spells. No one really HAS to be a full caster, though. Magic needs to be accessable, but not omnipresent.
If someone felt like it, you could probably get by with a UMD rogue also.
I think UMD and a golf bag full of wands should handle your needs, if you're prepared to spend the money on it.
Hell, I'd argue that you don't need any sort of caster. You just have to adapt your tactics to what you have.
Hell, I'd argue that you don't need any sort of caster. You just have to adapt your tactics to what you have.
Well, not having magic will kill you. No amount of clever tactics will enable you to see in a Darkness spell or hit an incorporeal monster. So you'll need to pick something up at Ye Olde Magick Shoppe.
Basically, if you can't cast spells, you'll need to get them some other way.
Thanks for the replies. I think I'll try and come up with a tanky character that can use umd for all those needed divine spells. Could possibly look at leadership when I hit level 7. (We're starting at 4th)
Hell, I'd argue that you don't need any sort of caster. You just have to adapt your tactics to what you have.Well, not having magic will kill you. No amount of clever tactics will enable you to see in a Darkness spell or hit an incorporeal monster. So you'll need to pick something up at Ye Olde Magick Shoppe.
Basically, if you can't cast spells, you'll need to get them some other way.
Well, I stand by what I said. You don't need a caster. I didn't say you didn't need magic. Fair point, though.
'Need' is a strong word.
You most definitely WANT one.
But you can live without one.
Depends on the level you are playing, i have found that post 10 level you really need a couple of casters.
Don't sweat it if no one in your group wants to play a caster, the first one to die because you don't have a caster gets to make a caster (just be sure that it isn't you).
be a paladin
Naw, you're fine with a bunch of half-casters. Play an Inquisitor or Paladin, even perhaps a ranger. Have her play another of those.
The paladin is sorta a must for yout party, since it can act as a primary healer too, what with the Hospitaler archetype, extra channel and/or LoH and selective Channel.
You guys will miss having much in the way of Fly or TPort, tho.
be a paladin
The last game I ran for them had two paladins in the group with no other casters. They were helpless against two vampires (they were all level 11). This could have been more an issue with gear choices and tactics than anything else though. On a side note, I was thinking about a dwarven inquisitor.
Nagaji Oracle of battle.
be a full caster and do lots of melee as well.
Do you need a full caster? I think so. Can't think of any AP we have done without one.
be a paladinThe last game I ran for them had two paladins in the group with no other casters. They were helpless against two vampires (they were all level 11). This could have been more an issue with gear choices and tactics than anything else though. On a side note, I was thinking about a dwarven inquisitor.
how did two paladin manage to make themselves usless again two vampires?
Greater invisibility, and none of them had means to spot them or dispel it.
Yeah, Smite, with a Holy Sword, really lays the hurt on a vamp.
Angelkin Oracle of battle (From Blood of Angels) with the Scion of Humanity and Deathless Spirit Alternate Racials and the Tongues curse.
pick up a glaive (Reach+Enlarge=Massive Threat Range)
Wear Heavy Armor, Invest a Decent Enough Dex, Take Combat Reflexes and Dump Wis. the strength bonus over a stock Aasimaar will serve you well, plus you can swap your spell like ability for a roll from the chart, or if allowed to pick and choose from the chart, go with the dexterity bonus
a composite longbow and a cestus, you will also need
you get to be a full caster, and a frontline combatant
you won't crit often, but you can enlarge and with combat reflexes, guarantee a bunch of attacks of opportunity against most pouncing foes.
towards level 10, you wanna start using righteous might instead.
a neutral alignment is recommended for exploiting such things as align weapon, alignment based spells, profane/sacred bonus abuse and even righteous might DR abuse.
Greater invisibility, and none of them had means to spot them or dispel it.
Detect evil much? One detects to get the general area announces the ping then the other channels for damage in the cone. If the vamps are actually meleeing you simply channel.
And that's base level paladin 101. Not even "use you spells or paladin awesomeness."
There are very few things that simply can not be done without a caster. The truth is, yes, you can get by. It is more difficult, more expensive. But, it is doable.
Be prepared to retreat more often, though. You'll need to assess situations more thoroughly to be prepared, and that still may not always be enough.
Angelkin Oracle of battle (From Blood of Angels) with the Scion of Humanity and Deathless Spirit Alternate Racials and the Tongues curse.
pick up a glaive (Reach+Enlarge=Massive Threat Range)
Wear Heavy Armor, Invest a Decent Enough Dex, Take Combat Reflexes and Dump Wis. the strength bonus over a stock Aasimaar will serve you well, plus you can swap your spell like ability for a roll from the chart, or if allowed to pick and choose from the chart, go with the dexterity bonus
a composite longbow and a cestus, you will also need
you get to be a full caster, and a frontline combatant
you won't crit often, but you can enlarge and with combat reflexes, guarantee a bunch of attacks of opportunity against most pouncing foes.
towards level 10, you wanna start using righteous might instead.
a neutral alignment is recommended for exploiting such things as align weapon, alignment based spells, profane/sacred bonus abuse and even righteous might DR abuse.
I may take a look at this, though we can't use aasimar (9 RP or less only)
Greater invisibility, and none of them had means to spot them or dispel it.Detect evil much? One detects to get the general area announces the ping then the other channels for damage in the cone. If the vamps are actually meleeing you simply channel.
And that's base level paladin 101. Not even "use you spells or paladin awesomeness."
Yeah.. Only a 60' cone and the vampires were using fireball and scorching rays. Dominating the barbarian didn't help their situation much either.
Go for a human then.
Race Points aren't even an appropriate way to judge power, the costs are so poorly written, that some races, like the aasimaar and fetchling, are complete ripoffs, and some races, like the human and dwarf, are too cheaply priced
Human gives you a bonus skill point per level, which outweighs the aasimaars SLA and Skill Bonuses Combined
the bonus feat already outweighs both the aasimaars Resistances, and it's Darkvision, and may as well surpass it's Attribute bonus as well. but a human, who planned on taking skill focus anyway, which you may as well do with your limited first level options, can take the focused study trait, granting a free skill focus at 1st, 8th, and 16th level. perception, survival, and diplomacy are nice choices, as is knowledge (planes) which is the prerequisites to the eldritch heritage (abyssal bloodline) combo, which at 11th level, will give you a strength bonus of +2-+6 for 3 feats.
you sacrifice one feat to gain 3 feats, and spend 2 feats you couldn't afford with another race
Human Array (20 point)
Str 17 (15+2) (7)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 7 (-4)
Cha 15 (7)
with a 25 point buy, you raise your int to 14 and be 1 skill point per level behind a nonhuman rogue with 10 int.
buffs, heals, and condition removers are your primary thing,
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Here is a melee pseudo caster i made a while back that works nicely as a front liner.
Half-elf
Alchemist (Bramble Brewer)(Internal Alchemist)
-Stats-
STR 11
DEX 17 (+5 leveling) = 22
CON 14
INT 14 (+2 racial) = 16
WIS 10
CHA 07
-Feats / Discoveries-
01 Martial Weapon Prof Scimitar, Weapon Finesse
02 Tanglefoot Bomb
03 Dervish Dance
04 Spontaneous Healing
05 Combat Expertise
06 Healing Touch
07 Dodge
08 Preserve Organs
09 Combat Reflexes
10 Enhance Potion
11 Mobility
12 Greater Mutagen
13 Spring Attack
14 Extend Potion
15 Whirlwind Attack
16 Eternal Potion
17 Lunge
18 Grand Mutagen
19 Weapon Focus Scimitar
20 Preserve Organs, True Mutegen
-Extracts-
1- Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Ant Haul, Expeditious Retreat, Detect Secret Doors
2- Cure Moderate Wounds, Barkskin, Aid, Blur, Cat's Grace
3- Cure Serious Wounds, Fly, Heroism, Elemental Aura, Draconic Reservoir
4- Cure Critical Wounds, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Greater Darkvision
5- Elemental Body, Spell Resistance, Sending, -, -
6- Heal, Elemental Body, Caging Bomb Admixture, True Seeing, -
-Method-
Character will have a 50% chance to ignore sneak attacks and turn crits in2 regular attacks, 5x character level in rounds of fast healing 5, ability to make a potion permanent (displacement is best option), double the duration of potions and make them work at character's alchemist level (mage armor and shield of faith is best option), make a single attack against all in a 10ft radius,and get additional fast healing from mutegen thanks to Bramble Brewer. Bombs will be used to entangle and create difficult terrain to impede enemy movement.
-Needs-
The character will need the blade of his Scimitar perma enchanted with the daylight spell to take full advantage of mutagen at any time in the day / night and a Dex stat item when possible.
Yeah.. Only a 60' cone and the vampires were using fireball and scorching rays. Dominating the barbarian didn't help their situation much either.Greater invisibility, and none of them had means to spot them or dispel it.Detect evil much? One detects to get the general area announces the ping then the other channels for damage in the cone. If the vamps are actually meleeing you simply channel.
And that's base level paladin 101. Not even "use you spells or paladin awesomeness."
Meh that hurts a bit more... scorching ray however doesn't break sixty feet until caster level 14+ though. That does put them outside of channeling though. I take it getting into a building wasn't an option?
Meh that hurts a bit more... scorching ray however doesn't break sixty feet until caster level 14+ though. That does put them outside of channeling though. I take it getting into a building wasn't an option?Yeah.. Only a 60' cone and the vampires were using fireball and scorching rays. Dominating the barbarian didn't help their situation much either.Greater invisibility, and none of them had means to spot them or dispel it.Detect evil much? One detects to get the general area announces the ping then the other channels for damage in the cone. If the vamps are actually meleeing you simply channel.
And that's base level paladin 101. Not even "use you spells or paladin awesomeness."
They were in the middle of a park in the city at midnight.
They were in the middle of a park in the city at midnight.Meh that hurts a bit more... scorching ray however doesn't break sixty feet until caster level 14+ though. That does put them outside of channeling though. I take it getting into a building wasn't an option?Yeah.. Only a 60' cone and the vampires were using fireball and scorching rays. Dominating the barbarian didn't help their situation much either.Greater invisibility, and none of them had means to spot them or dispel it.Detect evil much? One detects to get the general area announces the ping then the other channels for damage in the cone. If the vamps are actually meleeing you simply channel.
And that's base level paladin 101. Not even "use you spells or paladin awesomeness."
Yup, sounds like the need to prepare better next time.
Go for a human then.
Race Points aren't even an appropriate way to judge power, the costs are so poorly written, that some races, like the aasimaar and fetchling, are complete ripoffs, and some races, like the human and dwarf, are too cheaply priced
Human gives you a bonus skill point per level, which outweighs the aasimaars SLA and Skill Bonuses Combined
the bonus feat already outweighs both the aasimaars Resistances, and it's Darkvision, and may as well surpass it's Attribute bonus as well. but a human, who planned on taking skill focus anyway, which you may as well do with your limited first level options, can take the focused study trait, granting a free skill focus at 1st, 8th, and 16th level. perception, survival, and diplomacy are nice choices, as is knowledge (planes) which is the prerequisites to the eldritch heritage (abyssal bloodline) combo, which at 11th level, will give you a strength bonus of +2-+6 for 3 feats.
you sacrifice one feat to gain 3 feats, and spend 2 feats you couldn't afford with another race
Human Array (20 point)
Str 17 (15+2) (7)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 7 (-4)
Cha 15 (7)with a 25 point buy, you raise your int to 14 and be 1 skill point per level behind a nonhuman rogue with 10 int.
buffs, heals, and condition removers are your primary thing,
Here's what I've got so far:
(25 point buy)
Str 18 (15+2+1(lvl 4)) (7)
Dex 16 (10)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 7 (-4)
Cha 15 (7)
Revelations (Battle):
Skill at Arms
Weapon Master
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Intimidating Prowess
Power Attack
Traits:
Bully
Veteran of Battle
Items: (6000g total to play with)
+1 Falchion
+1 Breastplate
Mighty Composite Longbow +4
Cloak of Resistance +1
Later levels:
Will swap out the breastplate for Mithral Fullplate and will purchase Boot of Striding and Springing when available. At 8th level, will raise Charisma to a 16. Will pick up Dazzling Display at 5th and Shatter Defense at 9th. Unsure of level 7 feat at the moment, but this gives me even more battlefield options at my disposal. Critical Focus at 13 and Bleeding Critical at 15. Lots of empty room for feats.
**********
I think all of the above + having divine spells helps fill front liner and caster roles. Agreed?
So..no dwarves?
I may take a look at this, though we can't use aasimar (9 RP or less only)
We only have access to the prd, so we can't check their RP.
Dwarves are 11 or 12 RP but they are core and a lot more powerful than the 11-12 RP would suggest, despite being core
Humans are really overpowered for their 9 RP cost, mostly due to the flexibility of their boons, and some powerful alternate racials, favored class bonuses, and powerful racial feats
in Fact, in PFS, Aasimaars, Tieflings, and Tengu are entirely legal for play including the variant heritages and the like.
Imagine fighting swarm monsters without any AOE.
Imagine fighting swarm monsters without any AOE.
Alchemist's Fire. AoE doesn't have to be magic.
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I am in three campigns
one online where as a school for magic, pretty much (but not absolutely) everyone is a caster
one where I am the most dedicated caster as a half feind magus with archtypes that give not only diminished casting but also reduced arcana pool (the party concists of me, a half celestial gunslinger, a were bear barberian, a winged halfling ranger who plans on later going arcane archer)
the other campign had a group concisting entirely of casters
a sorcerer (me) a bard, a necromancer and an alchemist
all kinds work,
I think I'm going to stick with the oracle build posted above. The downside, is that he probably won't have any AoE's, and I don't think the Magus can have them period. So we'll probably have to stock up on alchemist fires. (Bag of holding ftw!)
I think I'm going to stick with the oracle build posted above. The downside, is that he probably won't have any AoE's, and I don't think the Magus can have them period. So we'll probably have to stock up on alchemist fires. (Bag of holding ftw!)
There are AoEs on the magus spell list (burning hands, fireball, etc). The question is only whether the person playing the magus is someone who will just prepare a bunch of touch spells because they are theoretically optimal for magus, or if he's someone who wants to be prepared for contingencies.
I think the spell recall ability encourages the magus to avoid preparing shocking grasp (or vampiric touch, at the appropriate level) in every spell slot.
I think I'm going to stick with the oracle build posted above. The downside, is that he probably won't have any AoE's, and I don't think the Magus can have them period. So we'll probably have to stock up on alchemist fires. (Bag of holding ftw!)There are AoEs on the magus spell list (burning hands, fireball, etc). The question is only whether the person playing the magus is someone who will just prepare a bunch of touch spells because they are theoretically optimal for magus, or if he's someone who wants to be prepared for contingencies.
I think the spell recall ability encourages the magus to avoid preparing shocking grasp (or vampiric touch, at the appropriate level) in every spell slot.
And, of course, there's always wands.
You are making a huge mistake by making your PC that foolish. Will save will suck and you won’t won’t be able to make a perc roll, and that’s a crucial skill.
Drop your Dex down to 14, and your Wis is back to 10, and you can even put a pt in INT.
Here’s what I’d do
STR 16 (14+2)
Dex 13
Con14
Int12
Wis12
Cha 16 (15+1)
You are making a huge mistake by making your PC that foolish. Will save will suck and you won’t won’t be able to make a perc roll, and that’s a crucial skill.
Drop your Dex down to 14, and your Wis is back to 10, and you can even put a pt in INT.
Here’s what I’d do
STR 16 (14+2)
Dex 13
Con14
Int12
Wis12
Cha 16 (15+1)
Max ranks in Perception + skill bonus gives me a +5 at level 4, which is better than a class without having Perception as a class skill and a 10 wisdom.
What do you mean by “skill bonus”? Anyway, all things being equal, a PC with a Wis of 12 has +3 Perc and will saves over a PC with a 7 Wis.
What do you mean by “skill bonus”? Anyway, all things being equal, a PC with a Wis of 12 has +3 Perc and will saves over a PC with a 7 Wis.
Class Skill.
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If this is for PFS, I'd say no, don't join a group without any kind of caster. The GM isn't supposed to be flexible.
But if you have a GM that can be flexible, I'd straight-up ask that question at your table. As in, "can you run us a game that doesn't require a caster?" There's a bazillion options for this, starting with simple creature selection and leading all the way up to 'low magic'/'wild magic' setting choices.
Finally, if this is an established campaign/table, it is always, always, ALWAYS good form to ask what they feel they need. Ask, mind you, nothing required. But if they say 'Wizard' then your question is answered already.
Azata blooded dervish of dawn/ sound striker bard. Melee, magic, skills, and you will make the magus want to eat his heart out!. Put your fcb to inspire courage and by lvl 12 you get a +8 to hit and dmg from it. Sound striker gives you 1d8 + cha x10 as ranged touch which out nukes a fully decked out shocking grasp and you can do it alot more often. Switch to paladin after lvl 12, and you are tank/healer/face/buffer/melee monster/single target nuker/ flat out awesome FTW!
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@Roanark
Shame u did not care for the Alchemist i posted above. Its decent melee with the ability to chuck bombs when needed to take care of swarms and the ability to create areas of massive difficult terrain to cut creatures off. Not to mention it has great self healing with its extracts, fast healing mutagen, and fast healing discovery making it on par with paladin heals or at least a very close 2nd.
@Roanark
Shame u did not care for the Alchemist i posted above. Its decent melee with the ability to chuck bombs when needed to take care of swarms and the ability to create areas of massive difficult terrain to cut creatures off. Not to mention it has great self healing with its extracts, fast healing mutagen, and fast healing discovery making it on par with paladin heals or at least a very close 2nd.
I'll take a look at it this evening!