Carriages, Wagons, and the Surprises Within

[Kobold Catgirl]

So, another thread just gave me an idea. Later on in the game's run (or early on), will merchants be able to obtain, say, wagons that allow them to transport more wares from place-to-place?

The pros of taking a wagon: More goods faster, a big edge on your competitors.

The cons of taking a wagon: The way I see it, bandits would be able to easily loot a wagon if they got control of it--thus making you an extra-tempting target. And if bandits do catch you, everything in that wagon is gonna be forfeit.

What else could be done: Could you hide traps in a wagon? An animal companion? NPC guards? Even PC guards?

I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on this. I would love to hide in some merchant's wagon--with or without them knowing--just on the off-chance he gets pulled over by bandits and I get to give them all a big surprise.

Also, an additional element building off that: Hitchhikers. You think you're so clever taking your wagon and guards, totally outdoing your competitors--but your competitor is riding comfortably along, safe from risk, behind your chests of gold. When you arrive at the town, he cheerfully gets out and thanks you for the ride.

[cartomancer]

Fun! Assassins could hop rides into Settlements without anyone ever seeing them, Bandits could get cleaved while robbing them, even rogues could have fun Disabling them if they stop for any reason. Good people might even like them, too.

I don't like the idea of hiding any AIs in wagons, though. If something furry attacks me out of the back of a wagon, I want it to be a dwarf.

Also, are we talking covered wagons or open? Open wagons really don't seem beneficial to me. We'll just rob you unless you spend a ton on guards. Covered wagons could be filled with invading forces or Bounty Hunters out to find some Bandits. You can do a lot more with those, even without carrying goods.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Covered wagons are what I envisioned. And yeah, they're probably too much risk if you can't afford guards--unless you're confident no-one will attack you.

[Sintaqx]

I would love to have the option to Q Ship/Trojan horse be available. That kind of activity dovetails nicely with smuggling.

[Tertiary]

In the Dev Blog it states that bandits and highwaymen will be able to train skills and set up camps that will allow them to ambush players who are using fast travel (which will drag them out of fast travel for the confrontation to take place). Presumably, if they are set up properly they will be able to do that vs. those who are just normally traveling as well.

Further, bandits will be able to initiate a dialogue w/ potential targets wherin they demand a certain amount of money/goods/etc. If their demand is not met, they can initiate combat w/out the normal repercussions for PvP.

The implication I got from the Blog was that the wagons would be open; there was no mention of covered wagons nor are they particularly common (to my knowledge) for the era or climate. Of course, what D&D campaign is complete w/out a Gnomish War Wagon? None. The answer is none.

Regarding caravan guards; PCs can be contracted to protect your caravan/wagon. The contract blog entry was recent, w/in the last four or five, and I recommend checking it out. The system will be robust and even includes routine settlement patrol. All very exciting. :)

[Bluddwolf]

I'm going to assume that carts or wagons will be in the game. The idea that a gatherer of wood or iron or any of those natural resources, with exception of hearts, is going to carry away what they can in their pockets or a sack is just not realistic.

[Malin Blackshire]

I really like the ideas. Espacially the one with hiding in the wagons to enter a hostile settlement. Players could make a manouvre like in Troy and hide a special forces team in a wagon. When the attack begins there would be a big surprise:)

[Milo Goodfellow]

Even as a bandit, I like the idea of "cargo" not always being the traditional sense of the word. Hitchhikers is cool, but I would say be extremely difficult to stowaway, but carrying troops or guards inside the wagon, or just traveling with an empty wagon to play like a decoy, all brings new and exciting challenges to the table. When bandits decide to rob a wagon, are we biting off more then we can chew??? Great idea.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Tertiary wrote:

Regarding caravan guards; PCs can be contracted to protect your caravan/wagon. The contract blog entry was recent, w/in the last four or five, and I recommend checking it out. The system will be robust and even includes routine settlement patrol. All very exciting. :)

I am fully aware of the way guards work. This is a note on how wagons could work. I honestly disagree. Covered wagons are quite practical, as they hide your wares--and guards/traps--and keep them sheltered from the elements.

I don't expect a mechanic to hide guards or traps in a wagon will be in place by launch, but it'd be a nice addition later on.

[Deianira]

I quite like the idea of caravans. I'm hoping someone will start a chartered company of entertainers, traveling in brightly painted wagon caravans.

No reason everything has to be mercantile or warlike, is there?

[cartomancer]

Sintaqx wrote:

I would love to have the option to Q Ship/Trojan horse be available. That kind of activity dovetails nicely with smuggling.

Here's one way that could work. Say you have "a chartered company of entertainers, traveling in brightly painted wagon caravans." (Awesome idea, Deianira.) No one will pay much attention to you wandering about, probably, as you are just there to provide color for the world. So, spy. Sell information. Carry people in your wagons with big Trespasser flags. Steal weapons. Break things. Bards are traditionally rogue-type classes, right?

And everyone should, on principle, accept gifts of large wooden rabbits and badgers, so that could be a way to sneak in to a Settlement that no one would suspect.

[Bringslite]

cartomancer wrote:

Sintaqx wrote:

I would love to have the option to Q Ship/Trojan horse be available. That kind of activity dovetails nicely with smuggling.

Here's one way that could work. Say you have "a chartered company of entertainers, traveling in brightly painted wagon caravans." (Awesome idea, Deianira.) No one will pay much attention to you wandering about, probably, as you are just there to provide color for the world. So, spy. Sell information. Carry people in your wagons with big Trespasser flags. Steal weapons. Break things. Bards are traditionally rogue-type classes, right?

And everyone should, on principle, accept gifts of large wooden rabbits and badgers, so that could be a way to sneak in to a Settlement that no one would suspect.

"Why yes! I will accept this unusually large wooden rabbit. It will look lovely in the town square. Put it next to the gigantic horse and the huge honey badger!" =D

[DeciusBrutus]

Oh, a gift for the burning rabbit festival! We will get started right away!

[cartomancer]

How much is Burning Rabbit this year? Which bards are going to be there? Is TEO giving comp tickets to newbies? These are important questions!

[Bringslite]

Burning Rabbit is the Bomb! I was the Guest of Honor last year. ;)

[Nihimon]

Bringslite wrote:

Burning Rabbit is the Bomb! I was the Guest of Honor last year. ;)

Is that when your hair caught on fire? Are you sure you don't want a bucket of water?

[Bringslite]

Nihimon wrote:

Bringslite wrote:

Burning Rabbit is the Bomb! I was the Guest of Honor last year. ;)

Is that when your hair caught on fire? Are you sure you don't want a bucket of water?

Actually more than my hair. I have been incredibly thirsty, now that you mention it.

A bucket o' water would be nice, beer would be better!

Oh, wait. That is how I wound up in that darned Rabbit in the first place. =P

[cartomancer]

It was firewater, anyway.

Bluddbeer -- You'll lose your clothes, one way or another.

Speaking of fire and water, what about a fire department? Are there going to be forest fires? Water-oriented spellcasters would be fun to have in a wagon.

[Tertiary]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Tertiary wrote:

Regarding caravan guards; PCs can be contracted to protect your caravan/wagon. The contract blog entry was recent, w/in the last four or five, and I recommend checking it out. The system will be robust and even includes routine settlement patrol. All very exciting. :)

I am fully aware of the way guards work. This is a note on how wagons could work. I honestly disagree. Covered wagons are quite practical, as they hide your wares--and guards/traps--and keep them sheltered from the elements.

I don't expect a mechanic to hide guards or traps in a wagon will be in place by launch, but it'd be a nice addition later on.

Your post suggested you hadn't already read the dev blogs from cover to cover (ie. they specifically state there will be wagons and discuss the encumbrance system). I didn't want you to miss out; sorry if I seemed pretentious. And, there is nothing to disagree with unless it is my assumption that the Devs do not currently intend to put covered wagons in. I was just saying it didn't seem 'period', not that it didn't seem 'practical.' In this era 'covered wagons' weren't 'covered wagons'... they were carriages. Carriages were meant to carry passengers (usually well-to-do passengers at that) and not cargo. Wagons are open bed so that they are easier to load and they have more versatility.

[Bringslite]

When we talk of "period", what do we mean by that?

The current date is 19 Gozran, 4713.

That is the start of the Runelords Campaign. That is 4713 years in someone's reckoning. Kind of leaves the "period" view hanging in the wind.... ;)

[Dario]

Bringslite wrote:

When we talk of "period", what do we mean by that?

The current date is 19 Gozran, 4713.

That is the start of the Runelords Campaign. That is 4713 years in someone's reckoning. Kind of leaves the "period" view hanging in the wind.... ;)

I think Tertiary is trying to say that it doesn't match up to the time period in Earth history that (s)he considers analogous. Though it seems odd to me to claim covered wagons are unrealistic in a world with robots, force fields, lasers, dragons, demons, eternal hurricanes...

[Sintaqx]

And magic.

[Bringslite]

With inter planar/world/universe travel, any and all things including minor tech level and cultural specific adaptations are possible.

Indeed, they are likely.

[Gloreindl]

Covered wagons, in one form or another have been around for over 2,100 years. The Chinese used them in war, and to keep this inline with the 15th century feel of Pathfinder (since it has guns), the Hussites, Hungarians, Czechs and Bohemians used armored wagons during and after the Hussite Wars (1419-1439). All were covered in one fashion or another. The Hussite vVzová Hradba (known in German as the Wagenburg) and Tabors were fine examples of this, carrying troops armed with crossbows, handgonnes, and polearms. Give a couple of these to Merchants and I think Bandits will have some second thoughts LOL

[Kobold Catgirl]

Tertiary wrote:

And, there is nothing to disagree with unless it is my assumption that the Devs do not currently intend to put covered wagons in. I was just saying it didn't seem 'period', not that it didn't seem 'practical.'

Given that I doubt the Golarion folk have yet to invent covered wagons, it comes down to "do we want them in this case?" In an untamed wilderness full of natural and manmade hazards, I'd say a covered wagon would come in pretty handy. Why wouldn't people use them? Hide your shiny gold, keep it dry, have a place to sleep at night.

[Being]

In at least one Pathfinder novel (Prince of Wolves) there were both an enclosed carriage and an enclosed wagon.

[cartomancer]

At the very least, we can innovate and create them.

[theStormWeaver]

I love the idea of caravans/wagons.

It would be a great way to distinguish the wealthier merchants or the larger/more organized/successful merchant groups.

A powerful merchant group, like TSV's merchant circle, or The Mercatorum, would probably employ several of several wagons in a caravan semi-regularly to move large quantities of product to market or from large resource nodes back to the settlement(s).

[Tertiary]

Gloreindl wrote:

Covered wagons, in one form or another have been around for over 2,100 years. The Chinese used them in war, and to keep this inline with the 15th century feel of Pathfinder (since it has guns), the Hussites, Hungarians, Czechs and Bohemians used armored wagons during and after the Hussite Wars (1419-1439). All were covered in one fashion or another. The Hussite vVzová Hradba (known in German as the Wagenburg) and Tabors were fine examples of this, carrying troops armed with crossbows, handgonnes, and polearms. Give a couple of these to Merchants and I think Bandits will have some second thoughts LOL

This is along the lines of what I am trying to convey. These are military wagons. Carriages, as I mentioned, are for personel transport... covered wagons (Reference Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covered_wagon) are from the old western period and a completely different animal. In regions of inclement weather and natural hazards IRL, they were not commonly used to transport trade goods during the same relative period... robots and lazers are not a part of the period; they are anomolies and not the norm. Invention, magical or technological, does not seem relevant. This is not Eberron and even in DDO they left out the skyships and lightning rails. And, even if that invention was relevant, it takes a while to catch on... the River Kingdoms are not a scientific/invention driven/progressive society... nor, for that matter, is the weather particularly inclement.

You've forced me into a position it was never my intention to take. I am not saying that PFO should not have armored/covered/whatever wagons... I am saying that from what I've read and what I know of IRL analogous history, and my experience playing in Golarion and other similiar settings... Armored Super-Wagons were the exception for a modern group of IRL people RPing their fantasies and not an acceptable norm of the campaign setting. Again I emphasize they were the exception. By that logic, and again from what I've read so far, it does not seem to me that PFO will have covered wagons.

Would it be cool to have all those scenarios above? Of course! Sneaking into settlements is one particularly interesting to me... and then gate guards aiming the siege machinery at incoming wagons and firing if they don't stop for inspection. But, on the other hand, consider the balance. Sure, it's cool.. but, is it fair to the bandits who are putting themselves in danger and taking time out of their life to set up this elaborate ambush... then, because of the limitations of the game more than the character's acutal abilities, they are suffering a massive counter-ambush by someone who just fast-traveled to their location?

I think this violates the spirit of the game; it is meant to be fun for all and that means giving the bandits a chance at winning. If you want to ambush them, you need to find their location (which will already seems like it will be too easy; it's going to be somewhere inside a single hex) then you need to send your infantry/archers/mages out to set up their counter-ambush... then you need to send in the bait. This is a social game and I don't think that short-cuts like 'covered wagon bomb' encourage social play.

If you want to be generally safe; travel (as theStormWeaver suggested) in LARGE caravans with well-organized guards and under the protection of a well-established company. So, since you've forced me into the position, outside of the 'cool factor' I think this is a bad idea. ;)

[Tertiary]

After writing all that; I actually recalled a scene from one of the oldish Robin Hoods (the one with Kevin Costner maybe?) where they have some armored wagons and a bunch of guards pop-out to ambush the Merry Men. Still, so far as game-balance goes I remain against. :)

[theStormWeaver]

Are people arguing for armored battle wagons?

For the record, I'm talking about simple box-ish "delivery truck" type wagons/carts. Within which could be hiding a group of caravan guards who could pop out to defend the caravan in case of an ambush.

[Bringslite]

@Tertiary

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Camps also house storage for the extracted resource. The complexity of your camp will dictate the amount of storage available, and when it's full, no further materials will be harvested. You'll need to convey your harvest from your camp to another location using a wide variety of transport options. Beware: hijacking a wagonload of material may be just as efficient as harvesting it in the first place, so you'll want to guard your logistics chain!

Emphasis mine. Where did you read anything about wagons in the blog other than the above? Was it in a thread?

There is certainly no mention therein of what type of wagons they will design. I seriously doubt that they have even sketched a wagon yet, let alone decided anything about them. They are very busy boys and girls on other projects right now. That leaves all possibilities open for wagon types. Especially with ideas discussed here.

Your argument that "covered wagons" are unlikely because they are not period is what I disagree with. Golarion is a vast world peopled with such characters as gunslingers (how is that for period?)and spell casters that can travel anywhere and bring back any ideas and inventions that they like.

Being wrote:

In at least one Pathfinder novel (Prince of Wolves) there were both an enclosed carriage and an enclosed wagon.

Sounds like there is precedence for covered/enclosed wagons in Golarion.

A covered wagon could just be the type you are talking about with a tarp over it. Tarp being used to protect goods from rain or conceal guards. Nothing is unlikely if it makes sense and sparks a Dev's imagination...

[Kobold Catgirl]

The fun bit would be with merchants who keep covers up just to keep the bandits guessing.

There are so many potential uses for the covered wagons. It's great. Need to evade an assassin? Bribe the merchant to let you hide with his wares. Need to follow a guy you need to assassinate? Bribe a rival merchant to lead you after them.

[Tertiary]

Bringslite; it was an assumption that I made... I should have noted that? My apologies if I neglected that. :) Good work finding that quote, though! I went back and looked but I'm horrible at keeping track and refinding things like that! x.x

I also remembered 'gypsy wagons'. I'd also like to point out that a lot of the benefit of personel wagons (gypsy wagons and carriages) should be that they will be quicker than bipedal locomotion... thus the biggest benefit of riding in those would be 'running away and avoiding conflict' with the presumably (not certainly) unmounted bandits. Be interesting to see mounted vs. carriaged combat, though. Heh.

I know it's already been mentioned that the OP doesn't expect to see them in launch (or even relatively soon after), but I'd like to offer further support ot that... the Devs mentioned they do not plan to have building interiors available at launch (though they specified they would like to develop them eventually)... so, having 'wagon interiors' seems a very low priority.

In response to hiding folks in the wagon, though: Consider clauravoiyance/clauraudience -- a very simple mechanic that should penetrate this tactic and should also (imho) be available at the same time as any sort of 'realistic' covered cargo wagon. It seems like a monumental amount of work to implement the tactic + the counter-tactic and I am uncertain whether the Rule of Cool is going to have as much impact as we suspect.

Anyways, I've said my piece so I'll dip out of the thread and stop bothering y'all. ;)

[Kobold Catgirl]

Really? A covered wagon with a dude with a sword in it is so high-tech that only the "fifth level merchants" can use it?

Clauravoiyance/Clauraudience is a third level spell, meaning it takes a fifth level wizard to cast it. In PFO level terms, that probably means he's spent at least a good while in the game.

I find it perplexing that it requires such a 'monumental amount of work' to put a tarp on a wagon. I guess I'm not cut out to be a merchant.

[Bringslite]

It will be important and add to the fun if merchants have some ways to be tricky. It will not be very fun and would quickly get frustrating if not. I am sure that bandits will be very tricky in response. Options for unconventional resistance will just add to the complexity and fun.

Let's not rule out anything that is practical and will add fun for all sides.

[Dario]

@Kobold

Obviously. I mean, a tarp can make a group of people invisible. Clearly combining items with potencies like a wagon and a large square of burlap brings similar power to those who raise the dead, conjure comets to smite their enemies, and conjure and bind beings from other planes. =P

[Kobold Catgirl]

I just realized a brick wall basically has the effects of a Wall of Stone. Brick walls are OP! Nerf plz!

[theStormWeaver]

I don't think its necessary to create the "interior" of the wagon for people to hide in it.

Like the bails of hay in Assassin's Creed.

[GrumpyMel]

Clearly the "No One Expects the INQUSITION" routiene is fair play for merchants just as the whole jumping out of the bushes in surprise is fair play for bandits. It's legitimate game-play for merchants to try to turn things around on bandits upon occasion. As long as both cunning and skill are reasonably involved in the outcome....I don't think there should be any room for complaint on either side.

A tarp spread over a wagon-bed is certainly within the technology means for the setting. As are just simple disguises or even magic (illusions, etc). Both sides should have an opportunity to work to determin what's really going.

That said... it's probably not something that would make economic sense for a simple merchant to pull too often....but one that's carrying high value magical components??? I could totaly see a powerfull merchant consortium pulling that sort of stunt if a bandit group hit them too many times to the point they were PO'd enough to want to set an example.

I could also see merchants as a good vehicle for smuggling contra-band goods and individuals into a settlement....again completely fair game-play as long as the guards have some chance through a combination of vigilence and skill of catching it. It's all about opposed game-play....another and very cool way to represent PvP aside from the typical knock sword against skull.

[cartomancer]

theStormWeaver wrote:

Are people arguing for armored battle wagons?

Well, now I am.

The pros of an armored battle wagon: solid protection, arrow slits, reasonable that my siege engine CC will make them.
Cons: Someone will take it from you.

[Bringslite]

Security for valuable cargo is as old as right after the first merchant was robbed. Armored wagons make a lot of sense.