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Following the release of Bestiary 4, I would love to see an NPC Codex featuring the classes from the Advanced Players Guide. It would draw from the following list.
Alchemist
Cavalier
Inquisitor
Oracle
Summoner
Witch
If possible, having it include the Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat bases classes would be all the more better.
Gunslinger (slightly worried about this one, tbh)
Magus
Ninja
Samurai
I often run NPCs and PCs of the advanced classes so it would benefit me immensely.What's everybody else's thoughts on a second NPC Codex?
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I would also add the alternative class Anti-Paladin (which is way more useful to throw at players than paladins)
I like the NPC Codex better than the Bestiaries, to be honest. It's a true work of art. I would definitely buy another volume of this sort of content.
Anti-paladins too! :) I almost forgot about them.
I'd love to see the the prestige classes from Advanced Player's Guide explored as well.
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In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
That would be incredibly useful, but something about it being in the NPC Codex rubs me the wrong way a little bit. It just feels like the Codex should be limited to the core races, as those races would most likely see more use. That is of course, if the book remains about the same length as the original.
Sean, I see those sort of stat blocks as the kind of thing where having quick raw numbers to reference would be useful, but they're not worth being given the treatment of a full page write-up with stat blocks and artwork.
The Razor Coast books use a heavily-abbreviated form of the Pathfinder stat block to summarize recurring monster stats, similar to the short monster stat blocks found in a lot of 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D products. That seems like the ideal sort of format for something like what you're proposing for the bugbear warbands.
Undeterred, I agree in principle, but a second NPC Codex is going to need some non-core filler beyond just APG base classes and PrCs. Remember, the first NPC Codex made page count with 1-20 builds from about a dozen core classes, plus select level builds for the three NPC classes and however many PrCs are considered core. Some non-core/non-APG material is going to have to find its way into the book if the page count is going to stack up with NPC Codex I.
In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
I think it could be useful, particularly if there wasn't enough content with the APG, UC, and UM classes to make up an NPC Codex 2. Adding samples of humanoid chieftans and other leaders would really help round it out as a useful supplement.
One question that the Paizo folks need to answer for themselves is whether they plan to create any more base classes. It would be unfortunate if, for example, NPC Codex 2 came out a couple of months before a product that introduced yet another base class. If they have plans for any more base classes, that would be more than enough reason to hold off on NPC Codex 2.
Unzip, I mostly just meant the races. That said, I would love to see some of the featured races from the ARG make their way in there every now and then. I also agree that there will probably need to be something extra in there to get up to the same page length as the original. Maybe class writeups using different archetypes.
I think that would be useful, but I think I would rather see that after NPC codex 2 covering the remainder of classes.
In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
Yup. Plus drow party 1, party 2...
Stating up anti-paladins would be awesome, with the other alternative and base classes too.
In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
I think that would be a useful product, but I'd prefer it in a separate book - a monstrous codex or something.
If there werent enough classes to fill an NPC codex 2 I think it would fit in well as an appendix or a 'part two'. I'd kind of worry that each half would feel incomplete though.
In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
Yes! a million times yes!
I might be the person you are referring to, because i too suggested something like that, but even if i am, i wholeheartedly agree with myself on this.
In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
Yes that would be useful. Though I would like to see more of the standard classes stated up using various humaniod monsters.
As would be a NPC Codex that uses the classes and PrCs and srchetypes from APG, UM, and the UC.
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Well we have 11 core classes. In an NPC codex 2 we could replace these with the 11 base classes/variants from APG and Ultimate, then there is the NPC class section, this could be filled up with humanoid monster NPCs as per the Organization lines of various monster entries. And where the prestige classes are in NPC codex 1 we could have completely new monster NPCs, maybe even things like dragons and other monsters with class levels.
And the iconic section should have the APG and ultimate iconics in it.
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I shudder to mention it, mostly due to the backlash this class feature seems to receive on these boards...
A NPC Codex which features summoners would logically also have a section to detail their eidolons. There would be stat ups for eidolons corresponding to levels 1st-20th.
I know this isn't everybody's cup of tea, but I would like to hear people's thoughts. Should eidolons by part of NPC Codex 2?
I say yes. I am perhaps one of the few who enjoy eidolons mechanically and believe that such a section would not only be helpful for GMs who want to generate quick eidolons stats, but would add a lot of flavor and potentially give us some amazing artwork. Plus, the way characters in the codex are built, these eidolons wouldn't be min-maxed and the synthesist probably wouldn't even be mentioned.
Animal companions got this sort of treatment in NPC Codex I, so why not eidolons in NPC Codex II? If you're going to include summoners, seems to me you have to cover their pets as well.
Hmm. Sean, I like the idea of what you've suggested, but I would prefer it in a Monstrous Codex, along with sample alternate monsters, like the balor lords, or some good templated stuff, like white half dragon polar bears.
NPC Codex 2.
Full 1-20 alchemist, cavalier, gunslinger, inquisitor, magus, summoner, witch, plus 1-20 antipaladin, ninja, samurai is 10 classes, to the original codex's 11. Summoner's eidolon can be done in the same way the animal companion was. (20 builds)
Level 2, 4, 7 and 10 prestige class builds for the eight PrCs in APG gives us another free spot, since NPC Codex had nine. (4 builds)
Level 1-10 NPC builds gives us another section of 5 classes. (50 builds)
Level 1,7,12 PC builds gives us another section of 11 classes. (33 builds)
So that's 107 statblocks that were in the original that wouldn't be in the next one, assuming they were covered in the same manner.
Personally, I'd like to see archetypes start. Not 1-20 for each archetype, but maybe 5,10,15,20? Or some other way. For instance, there are 22 fighter archetypes between UM, UC and APG. 12 just in the APG. You could literally do a Fighter NPC Codex larger than the original NPC Codex, with nothing but APG fighter archetypes. That seems really excessive, and I don't know a good way to approach the issue.
This might sound off, but I'd like to see the NPCs built a little more to their CR, or their CR adjusted a bit better to their build. I've seen ACs of 13 on supposed CR 18s. Can we at least stop the formula madness?
I shudder to mention it, mostly due to the backlash this class feature seems to receive on these boards...
A NPC Codex which features summoners would logically also have a section to detail their eidolons. There would be stat ups for eidolons corresponding to levels 1st-20th.
I know this isn't everybody's cup of tea, but I would like to hear people's thoughts. Should eidolons by part of NPC Codex 2?
I say yes. I am perhaps one of the few who enjoy eidolons mechanically and believe that such a section would not only be helpful for GMs who want to generate quick eidolons stats, but would add a lot of flavor and potentially give us some amazing artwork. Plus, the way characters in the codex are built, these eidolons wouldn't be min-maxed and the synthesist probably wouldn't even be mentioned.
I think this would make sense, personally.
I dont have summoners in my games, but it seems it would be hard to fully capture an NPC summoner without detailing their eidolon.
I'm 100% with Kain on this one. While I am fully behind monstrous humanoids with class levels, that really, really belongs in it's own book, the Monstrous Codex or Ultimate Monsters or something, which I sincerely hope would be more like Savage Species and less like an NPC Codex of monstrous humanoids.
And +1 to including archetypes. While some archetypes can take mere moments to slap onto a base character, others fundamentally alter the base concepts of the characters and really have to built up from ground zero ... so using those extra hundred or so stat blocks to supply a bunch of archetypes would be awesome.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the Monstrous Codex/Ultimate Monsters idea. Savage Species is one of my favorite 3.5 supplements. To have a Pathfinder equivalent of the book would be a dream come true, especially I find many of Paizo's monster design a lot more compelling than their D&D counterparts.
That being said, I wouldn't mind a few less common races being featured as NPCs in the base class section of the book. Maybe one of the ninjas could be a kobold, or one of the oracles could be an aasimar. There is a lot of potential for flavor there, and that's something I put a lot of stock in.
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I think that would be a useful product, but I'd prefer it in a separate book - a monstrous codex or something.
If there werent enough classes to fill an NPC codex 2 I think it would fit in well as an appendix or a 'part two'. I'd kind of worry that each half would feel incomplete though.
If you were considering an appendix to include monster races (or even races from Advanced Race Guide), you might consider an approach like Wizards used in some of its Star Wars Saga books, i.e., create a base stat free of race. Then, in an appendix, add the particular adaptations you would need for a particular race, perhaps in an abbreviated 1 or 2 line version of the typical block of information provided for playing a race, e.g.:
- Human: Stats (+2 to 1 Abi); Sz (Med); Spd (30 ft); Feats (1 BF); Skills (+1 Rnk/CL); Languages (common). (ARG).
Fact is, so long as you know how to build a character from a particular race, it isn't too hard to adapt any of the NPC Codex stat blocks.
As a preference, I'd rather see a NPC Codex 2 with all the classes from the other rulebooks.
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That being said, I wouldn't mind a few less common races being featured as NPCs in the base class section of the book. Maybe one of the ninjas could be a kobold, or one of the oracles could be an aasimar. There is a lot of potential for flavor there, and that's something I put a lot of stock in.
Not a bad idea. As noted in my preceding post - so long as someone knows the particular build for a kobold or aasimar and wanted it instead to be a goblin or gnoll, then that person could simply reconfigure the stats to fit that particular race.
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A NPC Codex which features summoners would logically also have a section to detail their eidolons. There would be stat ups for eidolons corresponding to levels 1st-20th.
I know this isn't everybody's cup of tea, but I would like to hear people's thoughts. Should eidolons by part of NPC Codex 2?
I say yes. I am perhaps one of the few who enjoy eidolons mechanically and believe that such a section would not only be helpful for GMs who want to generate quick eidolons stats, but would add a lot of flavor and potentially give us some amazing artwork. Plus, the way characters in the codex are built, these eidolons wouldn't be min-maxed and the synthesist probably wouldn't even be mentioned.
I'm pro and con on this. You don't see animal companions, paladins' mount, or familiars statted out. So, why treat summoners differently? In addition, eidolons come in so many shapes and sizes, Paizo would essentially need to consider trying to reflect that in each of the leveled class builds. On the other hand, eidolons are a BIG part of summoners, arguably more so than with any other class.
If it didn't take away from the other class builds, then I'd be all for it.
In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
Very much so, considering that most of the statblocks given in APs and other sources are static in nature.
That would be incredibly useful, but something about it being in the NPC Codex rubs me the wrong way a little bit. It just feels like the Codex should be limited to the core races, as those races would most likely see more use. That is of course, if the book remains about the same length as the original.
Hopefully I won't be the only one to say this, but Core Races are overrated. Bring in the other humanoid races!
A NPC Codex which features summoners would logically also have a section to detail their eidolons. There would be stat ups for eidolons corresponding to levels 1st-20th.
I know this isn't everybody's cup of tea, but I would like to hear people's thoughts. Should eidolons by part of NPC Codex 2?
I say yes. I am perhaps one of the few who enjoy eidolons mechanically and believe that such a section would not only be helpful for GMs who want to generate quick eidolons stats, but would add a lot of flavor and potentially give us some amazing artwork. Plus, the way characters in the codex are built, these eidolons wouldn't be min-maxed and the synthesist probably wouldn't even be mentioned.
I'm pro and con on this. You don't see animal companions, paladins' mount, or familiars statted out. So, why treat summoners differently? In addition, eidolons come in so many shapes and sizes, Paizo would essentially need to consider trying to reflect that in each of the leveled class builds. On the other hand, eidolons are a BIG part of summoners, arguably more so than with any other class.
If it didn't take away from the other class builds, then I'd be all for it.
Familiars and mounts are all pretty much use the same base stats and are in the bestiaries. Each Eidolon is constructed differently, and different NPCs should have radically different Eidolons.
Following the release of Bestiary 4, I would love to see an NPC Codex featuring the classes from the Advanced Players Guide. It would draw from the following list.
Alchemist
Cavalier
Inquisitor
Oracle
Summoner
WitchIf possible, having it include the Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat bases classes would be all the more better.
Gunslinger (slightly worried about this one, tbh)
Magus
Ninja
SamuraiI often run NPCs and PCs of the advanced classes so it would benefit me immensely.What's everybody else's thoughts on a second NPC Codex?
I'd love to see an NPC Codex 2 (even if I don't use a lot of the non-core base classes). However, personally I'd rather it come out after the Advanced Class Guide and also include NPCs of the classes in that book, especially since there are going to be NO/few materials with NPCs using those new classes.
In another thread, someone suggested including stat blocks for humanoid monsters with class levels. For example, the bugbear Organization line says, "... warband (7–12 plus 2 warriors of 1st level and 1 chieftain of 3rd–5th level)," so it could have stat blocks for bugbear war1, war 3, war4, and war5.
Do you think that would be useful?
It would be extraordinarily useful, but like many others here, I feel like it would make for an entirely separate book, whether another NPC Codex in addition to what's discussed above, or some kind of "Advanced Adversaries" book that includes choice monsters with character classes and maybe a few new variations on existing monsters.
I was thinking about the Advanced Class Guide coming out, but with ten new classes (plus possible new prestige classes, companion creatures, etc?), that would be 100 new NPCs if there were given the same space.
That might make the book two big?
Technically though, if NPC codex 2 comes out next year in the "bestiary slot", than it would be released after Advanced Class Guide anyway.
I hope we don't get a NPC codex again for the bestiary slot next year, I don't need to save money that badly.
Well the bestiary 5 wishlist is already bigger then the wishlist for NPC Codex 2, so maybe there will be both a Bestiary 5 (or an inner sea bestiary 2) and a NPC codex 2 released together.
I doubt we will see two hardcovers released at the same time. The only time that has happened I think is when we get a Campaign Setting hardcover on top of one of the rule book line. We are already getting Inner Sea Gods and Emerald Spire (I think?) as extra hardcovers on top of the Strategy Guide and Advanced Class Guide...I only see room there for one blank rulebook spot.
What is the Emerald Spire?
I like the idea of an NPC Codex 2 that covers classes from APG and other sources like Ultimate Combat. I'd like to see a Monstrous Codex that covers 20 level flavors of leaders for the various humanoid, etc. races. So certainly 20 different kobolds, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, lizardfolk, etc. Along with those some examples of other larger creatures like a 5/10/15/20 ogre and so on.