Goblin Squad Member
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So I was recently designing a new TT character, and while forward planning his feats, got to thinking about what 'skills' we would like to see in PFO.
I am sure the usual feats such as dodge, toughness & power attack will all be there - but what slightly less common feats would everyone like to see implemented?
I'm currently liking disruptive and spellbreaker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As long as I have the Necessary skills to being a skilled/accomplished assassin, I'll be happy. I know the names of skills will changed due to the license thing. That and I want to be able to make my own poisons on my Twin (alchemy I'm assuming). I mean, I'm not calling myself Tigari, The Poisoned Blade for nothing :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm with Bludd. I think each skill and feat that is in the TT game has a use and should be implemented in PFO. Granted, maybe not all of them by launch, but I don't see why new ones can't be added in later patches as "knowledge is discovered." Skills them selves, I am not sure if I would prefer the breakdown like in D&D, like jump and spot being separate from acrobatics and perception, or just use the general skills like PF has. Either works honestly, but I like a variety.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's way more skills to implement than in the TT list. If you think about all the things needed to do for identifying , harvesting and crafting there should be several hundred more than the skill and feat list. Plus all the other non-adventuring skills for roles like aristocrat, diplomat, scribes, etc... The list of skills and feats in the TT game is somewhat limiting. Then you can get into higher level skill specializations and that's a couple hundred more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive appear as a single skill or 'badge', and have a choice of verbal options depending upon your skill, race, badges and alignment,
A Lawful Good character might only have a few options with a Lawful Evil NPC, but a Neutral Evil character might have a plethora of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive appear as a single skill or 'badge', and have a choice of verbal options depending upon your skill, race, badges and alignment,
A Lawful Good character might only have a few options with a Lawful Evil NPC, but a Neutral Evil character might have a plethora of them.
Those skills could be useful if there are enough NPCs in-game to make them worthwhile. Not sure, judging by my interpretation of what I have read, that there will be all that many NPCs.
If there are NPCs to interact with, they would be a great inclusion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive appear as a single skill or 'badge', and have a choice of verbal options depending upon your skill, race, badges and alignment,
A Lawful Good character might only have a few options with a Lawful Evil NPC, but a Neutral Evil character might have a plethora of them.
Those skills could be useful if there are enough NPCs in-game to make them worthwhile. Not sure, judging by my interpretation of what I have read, that there will be all that many NPCs.
If there are NPCs to interact with, they would be a great inclusion.
I would think that they can work some sort of a system in where it would effect pricing and other interactions between PCs. Like diplomacy would give an auto discount of 1% per rank on all prices paid to players when buying stuff. This is an example, but something like that would make those skills useful and needed where there is a lack of NPCs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Languages. I'll plug it every thread I can.
+1
The nice thing about time-based advancement and an extremely broad skill tree is that there will always be an opportunity cost for learning a language, so you won't have the situation you did in EverQuest where virtually everyone knew virtually every language.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would think that they can work some sort of a system in where it would effect pricing and other interactions between PCs. Like diplomacy would give an auto discount of 1% per rank on all prices paid to players when buying stuff. This is an example, but something like that would make those skills useful and needed where there is a lack of NPCs.I'd like to see Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive appear as a single skill or 'badge', and have a choice of verbal options depending upon your skill, race, badges and alignment,
A Lawful Good character might only have a few options with a Lawful Evil NPC, but a Neutral Evil character might have a plethora of them.
Those skills could be useful if there are enough NPCs in-game to make them worthwhile. Not sure, judging by my interpretation of what I have read, that there will be all that many NPCs.
If there are NPCs to interact with, they would be a great inclusion.
That is a big can of worms you open when you suggest that diplomacy should affect other PCs. That and bluff, sense motive, intimidate are all real controversial in player vs. player interactions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is a big can of worms you open when you suggest that diplomacy should affect other PCs. That and bluff, sense motive, intimidate are all real controversial in player vs. player interactions.
I'm actually a big fan of trying to think up ways that those kinds of skills/spells could work. I think there will be a watershed moment when we get to the point where we're quickly and easily conveying our intentions to the computer system, and that system only allows us to achieve goals if we've conveyed our intentions to fulfill them. Once that's in place, skills like Sense Motive (to see what another player's intentions are) and Bluff (to fool another player about your intentions) suddenly start to make a lot more sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Languages. I'll plug it every thread I can. But yeah every TT skill I'd like to see.
The one skill that I love but doesn't seem to fit with the design of PFO is use item.
Languages would actually provide a lot of immersion. Definitely some rules for "how to interact" options plus actual meaning?
When you suggest "use item" what sort of items range. I mean we know wizards will use wands and warriors will use swords and each item has skill slots. Would "use item" expand that range??
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you suggest "use item" what sort of items range. I mean we know wizards will use wands and warriors will use swords and each item has skill slots. Would "use item" expand that range??
The one skill that I love but doesn't seem to fit with the design of PFO is use item.
The use item skill is basically to attempt to use magic items or scrolls you normally can't use. It's big deal for rogues and bards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's basically using sheer force of personality to try to make a Magic Item work when your wouldn't normally be able to do so. IT lets non-mages use wands ans scrolls, non-dwarves to use dwarven throwers, or to allow an evil character to "think good thoughts" to pass as good for a good only item.
I personally HATE the skill in tabletop, as it lets a Rogue function as party cleric with cheap wants of cure wounds. But it's a core tenet of the the design of those classes, so it's a big deal for them to have it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is a big can of worms you open when you suggest that diplomacy should affect other PCs. That and bluff, sense motive, intimidate are all real controversial in player vs. player interactions.I'm actually a big fan of trying to think up ways that those kinds of skills/spells could work. I think there will be a watershed moment when we get to the point where we're quickly and easily conveying our intentions to the computer system, and that system only allows us to achieve goals if we've conveyed our intentions to fulfill them. Once that's in place, skills like Sense Motive (to see what another player's intentions are) and Bluff (to fool another player about your intentions) suddenly start to make a lot more sense.
I think that we are a long way from that. ;) Until then, a lot of people chafe at the idea of another player controlling their responses/actions. Influencing how they are allowed to react and all that...
Aren't some of those types of skills used for quick buffs/debuff in combat actions? I mean in the TT game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that we are a long way from that. ;) Until then, a lot of people chafe at the idea of another player controlling their responses/actions. Influencing how they are allowed to react and all that...
I agree, on both counts.
Trying to shoehorn the existing "in-the-box" thinking about these skills that's developed in a PvE environment into player-player interactions would be worse than not implementing them at all.
It needs to be organic. That is, there need to be clearly defined - and even more importantly easily conveyed - motives known to the system before you can ever hope to have a meaningful Sense Motive skill/spell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The use item skill is basically to attempt to use magic items or scrolls you normally can't use. It's big deal for rogues and bards.When you suggest "use item" what sort of items range. I mean we know wizards will use wands and warriors will use swords and each item has skill slots. Would "use item" expand that range??
The one skill that I love but doesn't seem to fit with the design of PFO is use item.
Interesting. Perhaps a one-off implementation or a small possibility of eg wand exploding?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could use Sense Motive as a gateway to the standard red (hostile)/white(neutral)/green(friendly) color coding of NPC names. With a high enough Sense Motive, you might know that the people you just met in the wilderness intend to attack you before they draw weapons. With a failed Sense Motive check, their names might remain grey (unknown) until they move to attack you.
In a system where you can lose alignment points for attacking non-hostile NPCs, Sense Motive could end up being important for good and neutral characters.
Sense Motive checks vs. PCs are probably a pipe dream. Most situations where I could see it being realistic are going to be discernible without it. ("That guy staring at me with a drawn bow just might be taking a round or two for an aimed shot bonus against me." "Gee, ya think?")
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could use Sense Motive as a gateway to the standard red (hostile)/white(neutral)/green(friendly) color coding of NPC names. With a high enough Sense Motive, you might know that the people you just met in the wilderness intend to attack you before they draw weapons. With a failed Sense Motive check, their names might remain grey (unknown) until they move to attack you.
That is very much in the PvE-centric mold. I highlighted the part that I'm talking about. The system can't possibly know whether a group of players "intend[s] to attack you" unless those players have already informed the system of that intent.
So, very PvE-centric, but you acknowledge as much.
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Sense motive vs bluff to detect alignment mundanely. With name color revealing alignment which may or may not equate with intent.
As for use magic device would be quite usefull in alling the use of magic items and indeed with the lack of set classes, may be required by everybody regardless of badge or perhaps certain badges give bonuses in certain cases.
IE the claric badge gives a bonus to using divine magic wands.
Disclaimer, Ive been out of touch with progress and threads for PFO for a couple months so Imay have missed something.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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That is very much in the PvE-centric mold. I highlighted the part that I'm talking about. The system can't possibly know whether a group of players "intend[s] to attack you" unless those players have already informed the system of that intent.
So, very PvE-centric, but you acknowledge as much.
But there are some things that the system can know about a group of players. Things such as reputation, alignment, criminality, and other system-based metrics and flags.
So something like hiding/revealing reputation and criminality based on a bluff vs. sense motive check could work in theory. In practice I'm not at all sure I like the idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't particularly care much what exactly ends up in the game in terms of skills, as long as it makes sense for PFO and isn't only there because "it's in Pathfinder."
That said, my hunch is that what will be available in PFO will be more alike to Pathfinder in spirit, and not so much in letter - in large part because I believe GW prioritizes making a solid MMO over replicating Pathfinder, and what works for the two are not the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could use Sense Motive as a gateway to the standard red (hostile)/white(neutral)/green(friendly) color coding of NPC names. With a high enough Sense Motive, you might know that the people you just met in the wilderness intend to attack you before they draw weapons. With a failed Sense Motive check, their names might remain grey (unknown) until they move to attack you.That is very much in the PvE-centric mold. I highlighted the part that I'm talking about. The system can't possibly know whether a group of players "intend[s] to attack you" unless those players have already informed the system of that intent.
So, very PvE-centric, but you acknowledge as much.
As I said elsewhere, asking the computer to guess PC motives is a pipe dream in most situations. Some MMO players are pretty close to chaotic neutral, and may change their minds about attacking travelers at the last second.
About the only thing the computer can know and transmit to another player is the prep time for an action. If Player A has Player B targeted and begins a long action, like taking a round for an aimed shot bonus, or casting a spell with a >1 action casting time, then the computer could use a Sense Motive test to warn Player B.
Edit: Plus the disguise penetration test, although it's not clear whether that will be the equivalent of a Perception test, a Sense Motive test, or a combination.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Divine magic and nature magic are the same. They are faith powered magic, I don't understand how they could be different, when they come from the exact same thing.
The three possible sources of magic are faith, will, and knowledge.
Nature is a separate power source in 4E, it's called Primal. Thankfully this is not 4E. However, there are alternate power sources for magic in Pathfinder. There is Blood magic as used by all sorcerers, where magic is harnessed by specific bloodlines. There is Ki power that allows Monks, Ninjas, and Samurai to use supernatural powers without spells. There is also advanced technology as "magic" source used by gunslingers and artifacts from Numeria.
When talking about an impossible power like magic, it really doesn't make sense to limit the source of those powers, as there is always from for an unknown source in the imagination.
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Most of those are not sources of magic but rather just boost it.
Magic occurs because you believe it will, command it to, or because you know how to make it do so as a consequence of other more easily controlled factors.
Every type of magic is used in one of those three ways , the trappings associated with them change but really only affect what is done with it and doesn't actually power it.
Ki for example is just will magic but tradition behind it flavors its use game wise but it is still powered by will.
Blood magic is will magic whose power is boosted by unusual amounts of personal energy available, but the magic is still powered by the sorcerers will of command.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it only changes form. Even magic abides by this law, the source of magic is one's ability to control energy. There is no other option.
Only if the universe of Pathfinder follow the same laws of physics as our understanding of our universe. When dealing in fantasy, nothing is impossible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I agree with Imbicatus that anything's possible, I think there's enough evidence in Golarion to support the statement that Nature and Divine magic are the same. For example, divine casters (clerics, paladins, inquisitors, etc) who follow an ideology such as Law or Protection rather than a deity. Is that really so different than divine casters (druids, rangers) who follow the ideology of Nature?
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I think you miss the point, no matter what so called energy is available as long as some is available, it doesn't affect your ability to use magic, only your faith, will, or knowledge will allow you to bend energy to your bidding.
Thing like ki, bloodlines, primal, they may affect /how/ youthink of magic but theydon't affect the ability to use magic.
(You can theoretically describe something broken, but it wouldn't work whatever laws of physics you impose. And thus leaves only the dumbest with any satisfaction as anyone with half a mind finds the lack of structure results in just confusion and nonsense and thus breaks any immersion. You may not conciously see the rules but you can tell when they break. Just like native speakers of english can tell that mvlim is not and could never be an english word, even if they don't conciously know the rules of english words.)
Edit;
I am not saying that something that stuff is impossible to happen, only that how it is possible to occur does follow certain rules or structures or is possible only as description but not in any other form, just like math can describe a box with negative dimensions but no matter what universeyou are in a box can not actually have negative dimensions, you cannot even draw a fake box with negative dimensions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Edit;
I am not saying that something that stuff is impossible to happen, only that how it is possible to occur does follow certain rules or structures or is possible only as description but not in any other form, just like math can describe a box with negative dimensions but no matter what universeyou are in a box can not actually have negative dimensions, you cannot even draw a fake box with negative dimensions.
That's my point. You can't draw a box or even describe a box with negative dimensions in our reality under the laws of physics as we understand them. But in another reality, such things may exist. Now, I am not saying that the majority of the laws of physics differ in pathfinder than they do here, but there are alternate and planes of existence that interact with Golarion on a daily basis. The Fey, the cosmic outside where the old ones live, and the outer planes all can allow different type of energy to be summoned or created, or even destroyed. While it may not have an explanation that is believable based on the real world, that doesn't mean that is not following the rules of that world.
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Not in any reality can a box exist with negative dimensions, and writing a story to include such is jarring causing confusion and breaking immersion. It isn't about whether it's real, it's about the tneoretical structure it's built on. If there isa structure then it can be believed enough to allow immersion, otherwise frustration occurs.
There is not one book or story I've read or heard about that didn't do as I said, simply because even writing such would be akward or the result of not paying attention.
It is mentioned about primal and ki and other power sources but they are all trappings nothing more. Don't confuse trappings with the underlaying structure.
Fey and outer planes, different energies but not different sources of magic. There is difference.
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And just how does a box with negative dimensions look in your imagination?
As previously mentioned, you can reference certain things but dealing with those things doesn't work well with stories and even less well in rpgs and pretty impossible in a computer game. And by doesn't work well, I mean it as, it doesn't work as anything beyond bland reference, it breaks the limits of what can be thought in ones mind. the unconcious mind constructs what we read or think into a structure that the mind can deal with, if there is no structure then you get cognitive dissonence like effect and get confusion and breaks any attempt at immersion. In an rpg this is worse because your mind uses such structure to make decisions about what can or can't be done.
Thus all magic, whatever energy is used, is powered by faith, will, or knowledge.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In order to describe a box with negative dimensions in the current math, you only need a vector with a negative magnitude. Oddly enough, these exist in current mathematics. Using the mathematics definitions leads to the punchline of the mathematician wrapping a short piece of fence around himself and saying "I declare the side of the fence I am on to be outside the fence": technically mathematically correct but physically indistinguishable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In order to describe a box with negative dimensions in the current math, you only need a vector with a negative magnitude. Oddly enough, these exist in current mathematics. Using the mathematics definitions leads to the punchline of the mathematician wrapping a short piece of fence around himself and saying "I declare the side of the fence I am on to be outside the fence": technically mathematically correct but physically indistinguishable.
I can't help but mention that this fence scenario made me think of Doctor Who. "It's bigger on the inside..."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Topology and Theory of Magic considerations aside, I'd like to see Profession (Surveyor) for map-making, laying out settlements, and finding the best places to gather materials.
I'd like to see a Management skill tree for crafters and gatherers, who will be supervising teams of NPC workers.
I'd like to see Knowledge skills for identifying critters of all varieties, from fungi to monstrous humanoids.
The Profession and Knowledge skill groups from the tabletop game allow the PFO skill set to be quite broad, without running afoul of the "Is it still recognizably Pathfinder?" question.
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In order to describe a box with negative dimensions in the current math, you only need a vector with a negative magnitude. Oddly enough, these exist in current mathematics. Using the mathematics definitions leads to the punchline of the mathematician wrapping a short piece of fence around himself and saying "I declare the side of the fence I am on to be outside the fence": technically mathematically correct but physically indistinguishable.
There is difference between a mathmatical description and possibilty. I can put the letters together, but mvlim will never be an english word. Somethings can be described that break, but without structure they will never hold together even in fiction.
Someone who wields magic must interact with the energy in a fashion that they can control. That method is the source of their magic, and their are only three ways for them to exert control. Yes they may use different energies but only three control methods.
My original question was from not understanding the point of splitting divine and nature since they both are suppossed to be the same and only the use differs. Clerical divine being more celestial/hellish nature vs middle earth nature. So it is like saying that nature should be split to be nature and nature. Certainly possible the line is somewhat fuzzy but there. I just don't understand why you would or could while claiming them to be the same. But this doesn't refer to source it refers to energy type and implied use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe discussions of boxes with negative dimension and English word construction would be better handled via private messages.
The essential division of spellcasters is that one group can use direct healing magic, and the other group has to use workarounds like granting false hit points or demonic fast healing in order to approach healing magic.
Clerics and druids can both cast cure light wounds. Wizards and sorcerors can't. We call the former divine casters and the latter arcane casters. Deviate from that, and the game is no longer Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe discussions of boxes with negative dimension and English word construction would be better handled via private messages.
The essential division of spellcasters is that one group can use direct healing magic, and the other group has to use workarounds like granting false hit points or demonic fast healing in order to approach healing magic.
Clerics and druids can both cast cure light wounds. Wizards and sorcerors can't. We call the former divine casters and the latter arcane casters. Deviate from that, and the game is no longer Pathfinder.
The Bard would like to have words with you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dario, you forgot that Ryan did say he'd like to eventually add all the PFRPG classes to PfO, so the Witch Archetype would also be able to heal and cast Arcane spells (Hedge Witch variant works very well for this - one of my current characters is a male, Elven Hedge Witch travelling in Iobaria looking to find a cure for the plagues that sweep through that cold land east of Brevoy, and acting as the party's healer Healing Hex + Cure spells make him better than a cleric, and with added arcane spells, almost as good as a Bard, though less so in combat).