Finally decided to fiddle with a magus


Advice

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I've been on the boards doing accidental research on how to play a magus, and I think I've come up with 'my way' to play it. It is different from what is commonly posted on the boards, and I have not read the optimization guides yet, I want to post first then see how close I am.

Human
20 point buy
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 13
INT 17
WIS 9
CHA 7

Racial mod into STR (17)
Feats:
traits: Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp); Metamagic Master (Shocking Grasp)
lvl 1) Spell Focus (Evocation); Spell Specialization (Shocking Grasp)
lvl 3) Power Attack; (Magus Arcana) Arcane Accuracy
lvl 4) +1 STR (18)
lvl 5) Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword: two-handed only); Intensified Spell
lvl 6) (Magus Arcana) Empowered Magic
lvl 7) Death From Above
lvl 8) +1 INT (18)
lvl 9) Furious Focus; (Magus Arcana) Hasted Assault
lvl 11) Elemental Spell; Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword: two-handed only)
lvl 12) +1 CON (14); (Magus Arcana) Maximized Magic
lvl 13) Piercing Spell
lvl 15) Spell Perfection (Shocking Grasp); (Magus Arcana) Quickened Magic
lvl 16) +1 WIS (10)
lvl 17) Greater Spell Specialization; Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword: two-handed only)
lvl 18) (Magus Arcana) Critical Strike
lvl 19) Arcane Strike
lvl 20) +1 CHA (8)

So you may be asking yourself: why? how?
Idea is this: Max out shocking grasp, I am a melee combatant, and that is the only spell I care about.

During combat, you wield your bastard sword in one hand, sans proficiency (taking the -4 to attack bonuses technically at this point) and cast your shocking grasp and hold it. Then, as a free action, grip your sword two handed, regain proficiency and get the bonuses from weapon focus, and use spell strike to attack with your bastard sword two-handed, getting more damage physically than you can pull off with normal one-handed weapons, and deliver the shocking grasp on top of that.

Spell specialization means you get more damage at lvl 1 since you can cast SG at CL 3rd.

Spell Perfection may need some clarification, but essentially, if Weapon Focus (ray) can get doubled as the means of delivering a ray attack, then Weapon Focus (bastard sword) will also double as a means of delivering shocking grasp. Greater WF will also double, as well as the normal +3 to attacking something metal or wearing metal which will also double to +6, meaning your attack bonus will be stupid.

You get Fly at lvl 7, and taking Death From Above means you only really care about one attack, coming from above and charging just gives you an extra bonus to attack, but only works if you already have a shocking grasp charged, or quicken it, since charging takes a full round action, and thus cannot be used with spell combat.

Piercing Spell replaces Spell Penetration (and its greater) as it only needs to be applied to one spell for this build, and is a metamagic feat for the purpose of qualifying for spell perfection.

Ultimately, you want to be flying in the air, cast and hold your supremely beefed up Shocking Grasp, and then charge down at an enemy, delivering your shocking grasp with redonkutarded bonuses to your attack, basically ensuring that you cannot miss less you roll a natural 1, and doing stupid amounts of damage. Doesn't max dex and only really matures once you get access to heavy armor at lvl 13 because of it, sadly.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shocking Grasp maxes out at 10d6 (assuming intensified), so after level 9 spell specialization is useless.

No?


GM Arkwright wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shocking Grasp maxes out at 10d6 (assuming intensified), so after level 9 spell specialization is useless.

No?

Empower also applies to it, so it becomes useless after lvl 13, which, oddly enough is where the build matures and is for the most part done, since that is when you get heavy armor.

Liberty's Edge

GM Arkwright wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shocking Grasp maxes out at 10d6 (assuming intensified), so after level 9 spell specialization is useless.

No?

No.

Quote:

Spell Specialization

Select one spell. You cast that spell with greater than normal power.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.

Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.

Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.

I'd switch to Vampiric Touch, around 8th.


EldonG wrote:
GM Arkwright wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shocking Grasp maxes out at 10d6 (assuming intensified), so after level 9 spell specialization is useless.

No?

No.

Quote:

Spell Specialization

Select one spell. You cast that spell with greater than normal power.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.

Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.

Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.

I'd switch to Vampiric Touch, around 8th.

I like this plan.

Liberty's Edge

master_marshmallow wrote:
EldonG wrote:
GM Arkwright wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shocking Grasp maxes out at 10d6 (assuming intensified), so after level 9 spell specialization is useless.

No?

No.

Quote:

Spell Specialization

Select one spell. You cast that spell with greater than normal power.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.

Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.

Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.

I'd switch to Vampiric Touch, around 8th.
I like this plan.

What can I say...my present favorite character is a Magus. ;)

You way isn't quite my way...but I'd argue that both are pretty rockin'. :)


EldonG wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
EldonG wrote:
GM Arkwright wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shocking Grasp maxes out at 10d6 (assuming intensified), so after level 9 spell specialization is useless.

No?

No.

Quote:

Spell Specialization

Select one spell. You cast that spell with greater than normal power.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.

Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.

Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.

I'd switch to Vampiric Touch, around 8th.
I like this plan.
What can I say...my present favorite character is a Magus. ;)

Definitely could swap one of those traits for it instead of shocking grasp, and be able to do both; and get what? 22 d6 of damage going once per day with my Magus Arcana? Maximized? Yes please.


Gotta swap out Death from Above for Spell Focus (Necromancy) in order to actually switch to Vampiric Touch as my specialized spell, but it's a fair trade imo.


Hmm with Vampiric Touch it would work well. I'd note one point, namely that the spell won't work on the Undead; maybe swap out Elemental Spell for... what was it.. therenodic?


Thanatopic Spell is the one you are thinking of, and yes that change is also going to be made, good call.


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I'm reasonably sure you can't alternate one- and two-handed grip on your bastard sword while using Spell Combat.

More importantly, the bastard sword has a limited threat range of 19-20. For maximum delicious Spellstrike crit mayhem you'll be wanting something with a range of 18-20, like a rapier or a scimitar. Of course, the scimitar opens the door on the Dervish Dancer feat, which introduces a whole new level of crazy.

I'd personally also argue that magical lineage and metamagic mastery wouldn't stack on the same spell, since they're both Trait Bonuses. That's just my personal opinion though.


Kudaku wrote:

I'm reasonably sure you can't alternate one- and two-handed grip on your bastard sword while using Spell Combat.

More importantly, the bastard sword has a limited threat range of 19-20. For maximum delicious Spellstrike crit mayhem you'll be wanting something with a range of 18-20, like a rapier or a scimitar. Of course, the scimitar opens the door on the Dervish Dancer feat, which introduces a whole new level of crazy.

I'd personally also argue that magical lineage and metamagic mastery wouldn't stack on the same spell, since they're both Trait Bonuses. That's just my personal opinion though.

Completely up to the DM, as it's a free action, only guidelines are that the DM should only let you grip and ungrip each once per round. The clarification went on to say specifically that a wizard using a 2 handed weapon can let go of it to cast a spell, then regrip it in case you get the chance to make an attack of opportunity.

Metamagic Master and Magical Lineage are actually on two different spells: one is on Shocking Grasp, and the other is on Vampiric Touch.

If you value a higher crit range, you can do the exact same thing with this build using a kitana in place of a bastard sword, and get the same threat range as a scimitar with a d8 damage die, and 2 handed damage.


Actually it isn't up to the DM. You can certainly swap hands as a free action, but using spell combat is a full round action that includes attacks and requires you to have a free hand for the full duration. I believe there are a number of threads on this, feel free to do some searching and rereading the section on Spell Combat.

The magus was written explicitly to only allow spell combat with light or 1-handed weapons wielded in one hand. The bastard sword is certainly a viable weapon, as is the kAtana, but only if you wield it with one hand. Spending a feat to become proficient means you go from 1d8 (longsword) to 1d10 (b.sword) or from 18-20 d6 (scimitar) to 18-20 d8 (katana) nets you an average extra 1 damage, or roughly half the benefit of Weapon Specialization. There are better options available.

Edit: And if you meant for the traits to affect different spells, you wrote down the wrong name in your writeup. At the very top it specifically lists both traits with Shocking Grasp.


Some things to think on. All the following assumes starting at level 1

1) Ditch the bastard sword, you can 2 hand the longsword at a loss of only 1 point of damage on average. This lets you have the option of using the blade one handed if you are dangling from a rope, also if your DM lets you take the Sword Scion trait (if you are using traits) then that is a free +1 bonus to hit to make up for spell combat, the free sword doesn't hurt either. Also you don't have to worry about your weapon spec "turning off" later if you are forced to one hand.
2) Switch starting int and str ( I may be pilloried for this ) but at low levels you will likely be using melee strikes more than spells and your int and str are pretty close. You can bump str to 20 at 4 and then bump your int to 16 at 8 or 12 (Con might be a priority). This will also make you effective with your ranged weapon of choice till level 8, the sling. Consider getting Arcane strike earlier in the build simply to enhance the sling attack 1d4+5/6 is actually pretty decent for a ranged option at low levels and much better than a bow till you can afford str bonuses.
3) Don't worry about bumping CHA. You dumped the stat leave it dumped, to do otherwise is to throw good money after bad.
4) Hexcrafter Archtype, Why wait till 7 to fly when you can fly at 5. Not to mention all the other goodies you can pick up. At will, Will (slumber) and Fort (Ice Tomb) SV or Dies that scale as well DC wise as a full casters, and a good debuff (AC or Saves depending on what you plan to hit them with next round), If you run out of options you can always pick up Healing hex, to get a little bit of healing. Best part? Most all of them a SU abilities that don't provoke attacks of opportunity. There is more awesome stuff to this archtype, but you will have to do more of the legwork yourself to find all the joy and cream.


I actually agree with DRS3 - the magus relies primarily on spells that do not allow saves. Your main priority should be whatever stat you use to make melee attacks.

I've never seen the Hexcrafter archetype in play, but I've heard good things. I HAVE however seen the Bladebound Magus in play, and the free weapon is incredibly handy. The weapon is usually the biggest expense for a character, having your sword scale automatically means a big chunk of your WBL can be put into other things - like Pearls of Power.


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Kudaku wrote:

I actually agree with DRS3 - the magus relies primarily on spells that do not allow saves. Your main priority should be whatever stat you use to make melee attacks.

I've never seen the Hexcrafter archetype in play, but I've heard good things. I HAVE however seen the Bladebound Magus in play, and the free weapon is incredibly handy. The weapon is usually the biggest expense for a character, having your sword scale automatically means a big chunk of your WBL can be put into other things - like Pearls of Power.

Bladebound and Hexcrafter are compatable if I recall so, get the best of both worlds.


Kudaku wrote:

Actually it isn't up to the DM. You can certainly swap hands as a free action, but using spell combat is a full round action that includes attacks and requires you to have a free hand for the full duration. I believe there are a number of threads on this, feel free to do some searching and rereading the section on Spell Combat.

The magus was written explicitly to only allow spell combat with light or 1-handed weapons wielded in one hand. The bastard sword is certainly a viable weapon, as is the kAtana, but only if you wield it with one hand. Spending a feat to become proficient means you go from 1d8 (longsword) to 1d10 (b.sword) or from 18-20 d6 (scimitar) to 18-20 d8 (katana) nets you an average extra 1 damage, or roughly half the benefit of Weapon Specialization. There are better options available.

Edit: And if you meant for the traits to affect different spells, you wrote down the wrong name in your writeup. At the very top it specifically lists both traits with Shocking Grasp.

The description for full round actions specifically states that it cannot be combined with a move or a standard action, but it makes no mention on free actions.

Gonna take a while to scour the forums for all the rulings on spell combat.


@Marshmallow

The problem with using Spell Combat and not having a free hand is that then you are no longer qualified to use the action you're in the process of using.

Your trick is similar to starting the round holding a 1handed weapon, dropping it as a free action, and drawing a greatsword as a free action via Quick Draw. It doesn't work.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ll3j?Twohanding-with-Spell-Combat#1

Grick made a fairly comprehensive guide to Spell Combat and Spellstrike, it can be found here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nler?A-Guide-to-Touch-Spells-Spellstrike-and-S pell#1


Well, then i guess Spell Combat be damned, I'll just quicken Vampiric Touch and deliver it with Spellstrike.


A Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat [Ver 0.4 Alpha wrote:
]Spell Combat is a full-round action. This means the only movement Melvin can make during Spell Combat is a 5' step, and he can do so before, during, or after the action.

This clause here conflicts with what you have been saying. Since a 5' step is a free action, there is no mechanical difference in performing that or grabbing the sword with your other hand other than a dev coming straight down and saying no it doesn't work.


A quickened vampiric touch (with trait bonus) is a 6th level spell, meaning it becomes an option at lvl 16. Alternatively you can use spell combat, and cast it normally at level 7.

By ignoring Spell Combat you're missing out on the core ability of the Magus. I can't help but feel like you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here.


master_marshmallow wrote:
A Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat [Ver 0.4 Alpha wrote:
]Spell Combat is a full-round action. This means the only movement Melvin can make during Spell Combat is a 5' step, and he can do so before, during, or after the action.
This clause here conflicts with what you have been saying. Since a 5' step is a free action, there is no mechanical difference in performing that or grabbing the sword with your other hand other than a dev coming straight down and saying no it doesn't work.

I never argued that you can't take free actions during a full-round action, you certainly can. The difference here is that a 5' step doesn't specifically invalidate the full round action - but grabbing the bastard sword with both hands means A: You're not holding a one-handed weapon anymore and B: You don't have a free hand anymore. Since you don't qualify for Spell Combat any more, your action would immediately end.

If you want to play it your way and rule that it works that's fine, but RAW and RAI it doesn't work.


And found a few other posts on Spell Combat and using two hands:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nmkq?The-Magus-wields-his-sword-in-both-hands- or#14
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2obwo?Magus-and-a-twohander#18

Note that there are also references and quotes from Jason Buhlman and James Jacobs in these threads specifically on using Spell Combat and two handed weapons.

One loophole would be to get extra arms (through alchemist for instance) but that's a murky area - it'll likely need some houseruling.


DRS3 wrote:


Bladebound and Hexcrafter are compatable if I recall so, get the best of both worlds.

Many think they do, including IIRC PFS and Herolab, not as good as official rulings but about as close as you get. However a few intelligent and rules savy people did fall on the other side, arguing that any change to any ability, even ones that don't change or remove it's original form and only add optional changes, disqualifies it from other archtypes by RAW.

While I'm on the side of "Can be combined", the fact really is that those rules can be argued either way and not be 'wrong', so it's a definite case of Paizo needing to clarify what they wrote. Since they haven't so far though and it's been years I'm not holding my breath.

Long and short, your milage may vary. Check the rules of your system or GM before you assume you can do it, and have a back up plan in place in case Paizo ever steps in and it becomes clarified as not RAW. [Mine was just double checking my GM would let me choose which of the two I dropped exclusively too, instead of him forcing just Bladebound on me as it would be mechanically easier for him]

master_marshmallow wrote:
A Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat [Ver 0.4 Alpha wrote:
]Spell Combat is a full-round action. This means the only movement Melvin can make during Spell Combat is a 5' step, and he can do so before, during, or after the action.
This clause here conflicts with what you have been saying. Since a 5' step is a free action, there is no mechanical difference in performing that or grabbing the sword with your other hand other than a dev coming straight down and saying no it doesn't work.
Kudaku wrote:


I never argued that you can't take free actions during a full-round action, you certainly can. The difference here is that a 5' step doesn't specifically invalidate the full round action - but grabbing the bastard sword with both hands means A: You're not holding a one-handed weapon anymore and B: You don't have a free hand anymore. Since you don't qualify for Spell Combat any more, your action would immediately end.

If you want to play it your way and rule that it works that's fine, but RAW and RAI it doesn't work.

Master, see my above point about having a back up plan ready. You're in the middle of an arguement people have been making for... well really years plural now.

I'm not sure I'd bank a mechanically inferior concept (smaller crit range) on a weapon that while thematically cool is possibly/probably, if not definitively, not allowed to be used with one of a classes main reasons for existing [and heavily balanced into it's usefullness to itself and it's group]

You could consider doing what a friend of mine did, which was defining his longsword as "On the large end of medium longswords, bordering on a bastard sword", so visual wise he got the theme look he wanted, but he had no GM issues as when the dice rolled it was just a longsword.
[Me, I used a Scimitar for my normal MAgus and a Katana for my Kensai, but I'm just flavor of the month like that. I just made sure to find a REALLY cool internet pic of a scimitar to go along with my genericness]


I'm.....in love with this.


ShoulderPatch wrote:

Master, see my above point about having a back up plan ready. You're in the middle of an arguement people have been making for... well really years plural now.

I'm not sure I'd bank a mechanically inferior concept (smaller crit range) on a weapon that while thematically cool is possibly/probably, if not definitively, not allowed to be used with one of a classes main reasons for existing [and heavily balanced into it's usefullness to itself and it's group]

You could consider doing what a friend of mine did, which was defining his longsword as "On the large end of medium longswords, bordering on a bastard sword", so visual wise he got the theme look he wanted, but he had no GM issues as when the dice rolled it was just a longsword.
[Me, I used a Scimitar for my normal MAgus and a Katana for my Kensai, but I'm just flavor of the month like that. I just made sure to find a REALLY cool internet pic of a scimitar to go along with my genericness]

The point was for the most optimal damage die, a kitana is actually the best weapon in this regard for people who value and bank on critical hits more often. Personally, I prefer higher damage averages, as they happen more often than critical hits. Anyone could use this build with a kitana and get 1 less damage in favor of 10% increase in threat range.

Spell Combat is a neat ability, but getting one extra attack without channeling a spell into it at a d6 damage die with a lower attack bonus yields such a minuscule amount of extra damage on top of using a two-hander, I am not sold on it being that much better than skipping out on spell combat all together and just using a greatsword with spellstrike. Assuming of course, you take the quicken arcana and can accomplish the casting in one round for the purpose of making a charge attack, which is why I wanted Death from Above in the OP.

Example: John h. Magus uses a scimitar, d6 + 4 damage at a (+x) to hit, using spell combat, he gets to make 2 attacks at (+x-2) to hit, with one of them delivering his touch attack, which will be called y.

So, regular attacking, without spell combat means d6 + 4 + y damage, at +x to hit.

Spell combat attacking yields 2d6 + 8 + y damage, at 2(+x-2) to hit.

Compare to, a greatsword: 2d6 + 6 + y damage at +x to hit. The difference is merely a +2 to damage for having to make 2 attack rolls using spell combat.

Factor in damage from Power Attack, (p).
Scimitar = d6 + 4 + p + y damage at (+x-.5p) to hit.
Spell Combat = 2d6 + 8 + 2p + y damage at 2(+x-2-p) to hit.

Greatsword = 2d6 + 6 + 1.5p + y damage at (+x-.5p) to hit.

Factor in Furious Focus, (f).
Scimitar = d6 + 4 + p + y damage at (+x) to hit.
Spell Combat = 2d6 + 8 + 2p + y damage at 2(+x-2-.5p) to hit.

Greatsword = 2d6 + 6 + 1.5p + y damage at (+x) to hit.

CONCLUSION: Spell Combat only yields 2 + .5p more damage than using spellstrike and a two-handed weapon, and being at such negatives means they are less likely to hit anyway, and that assumes that Spell Combat doesn't incur the negatives that TWF does on the secondary attacks when calculating damage from Power Attack. Otherwise, Spell Combat will only yield an additional + 2 damage.

Overall, by neglecting spell combat, one can create a more efficient damage output without having to use the full round. Builds that focus on this concept are builds that can capitalize on movement. Essentially, spell combat is less appealing for the same reasons that two-weapon fighting is less appealing, to me at least. Combining Spell Combat and Power Attack results in the most damage, in the same way that combining two-weapon fighting and power attack would, but the negatives suffered for the attack make it less useful imo.

Spellstrike is the main seller for me on the magus, not spell combat, only thing that sucks about it is that RAW I cannot cast a spell as part of a charge action, meaning I will have to use the quicken ability to cast a touch spell prior to making the charge attack, but it is still as effective as say, a paladin with similar flying and charging smite attacks.

A magus build that focuses on Spell Combat and one-handed weapons relies on full-round actions, and as a result suffers from the same tactical deficiency that TWF builds incur. I'm not saying it's bad, but most other builds I see for other classes avoid TWF in favor of higher DPR and mobility from a 2HW, so why remain so hard set on selling me this version of TWF?

Compare the DPR for a 2HW magus using a quickened spell and Spell Strike getting a full round of iterative attacks to one who just uses Spell Combat and there is a clear winner in the 2HW department. Spell Combat users can do the same thing to deliver the spell twice, I am aware, but the added versatility of being able to move and still put out respectable DPR compared to the Spell Combat user is a solid investment for me.


I appreciate that you've given up on using Spell Combat with a two-handed grip. Casting spells with your standard action and using Spellstrike to deliver them as a free action is certainly possible and it also allows you to use a move action each round. That having been said, I still feel the need to point out some limitations with your concept:

First of all, without Spell Combat you can't perform multiple attacks. Your build appears to go up to lvl 20, at 15 a Magus gets 3 attacks, possibly another attack from haste (haste and spell combat is iffy atm) + a potential spellstrike from spell combat. Furious Focus and two-handed attacks goes some way towards balancing this out, but you're missing out on the core element of the Magus, namely touch spells.

Magi rely on delivering touch attack spells in melee, preferably via critical hits. A keen scimitar means your shocking grasp is a threat 25% of the time, potentially dealing 20D6 electricity damage in addition to all your normal damage modifiers.

If a Magus misses a spellstrike attack, he still has the charge from the shocking grasp active and he can let it ride along on all his additional attacks the same round until he scores a hit.

Multiple attacks means multiple chances to (hit) deliver touch spells, and he wants to hand them out as fast as possible.

This is because if a magus has misses all his attacks in a round, failing to deliver his touch spell, then he either has to cast a new touch spell the next round (to get another free spellstrike) or skip the free spellstrike attack that tround.

I also need to point out, again, that using Quicken Spell is a monstrous waste of spell slots. Even with the magical lineage trait the earliest you'll have a chance to cast a quickened shocking grasp is lvl 13, and that's once a day (twice with 20 intelligence). It also means that instead of spending one point from your arcane pool to recover your shocking grasp, you're spending five.

Finally, a scimitar magus can do, quite literally, everything you described in your build. The only difference is that he only gets x1 strength modifier instead of 1,5x, and that he gets an additional 1 damage per swing from the increased dice. The difference is tiny, and not worth the various costs and limitations.

Oh, and a better comparison would either be the scimitar and the falchion or the kAtana (same threat range) or the longsword and the greatsword (again, same threat range). The reason why the vast majority of magi use rapiers or scimitars is because the increased threat range combined with easy access to Keen enhancements creates monstrous spellstrike critical hits.

Liberty's Edge

As a rule, I prefer the scimitar myself...the extra crit chance goes a long ways for little...and when you double the spell effect on any weapon crit...it's too good to pass up. That said, a 19-20 isn't bad...but I've never liked the bastard sword in 3+ anyhow.


I tackled the concept of iterative attacks, and relying on full rounds to get that damage is not that realistic in my experience. I've never played a melee type character who remained stationary in combat, and this build is focused on having a stupid good attack bonus for the sake of missing with that touch attack.

And when I say quicken, I mean using the Quickened Magic Magus Arcana, thus not affecting the spell level at all.


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Spell combat has its uses outside of just touch attacks, it can be used to play hell with the action economy of one character. Color Spray, Glitterdust, Silent Image, Minor Image, Shatter, Web, Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud are just a few spells that can be mixed with Spell Combat as group support battlefield control.

My tip for playing a magus is not to try to compete with Fighters or Ragers for DPR. That is their game, they hit the stuff with pointy sticks. You are a rogue without sneak attack that carries a wizard in his pocket that can cast while you fight. Even more so with Familiar Arcana and Imp Familiar with a little guy that can UMD. Yes you can burst. But you have limited spells per day. They can swing their swords every 6 seconds all day long every day. Thus I am more fond of Rime spelled Frostbite than I am of Shocking Grasp. With the enforcer feat you can (though your Cha is lousy so might want to pick up intimidating prowess) potentially make an adversary shaken, fatigued, entangled, with one attack that you can use for your CL number of attacks. Kinda brutal. This still does not stop you from turning around and dropping a zap fist on someones face, one might argue it makes it a lot easier to do so on at least the shaken, fatigued, entangled, target. Burst DPR is only one of a well built magi's many many tools.


Quickened Magic is useable once per day. I wouldn't really rely on it as anything other than a nice "need that spell cast right now"-ability.

Think about it like this:

Your furious focus character gets a maximum of 1 attack per round on lvl 20, if he wants to use spellstrike.

My completely identical character gets five attacks per round at level 20, three of which have his full attack bonus -2. He does take a -4 penalty from power attack, which I personally wouldn't use on a magus anyway. Each attack will have slightly lower damage than yours, but is still entirely viable.

Finally, fun fact. Since the Magus only reaches a bab of 15 at lvl 20, he will never have more than a -4/+8 (1, 4, 8, 12) damage modifier on Power Attack. That means the difference between using a scimitar and a katana is 5 points of damage, and 50% of your strength modifier. On the flip side, the scimitar user will have a free feat since he doesn't need furious focus - like arcane strike. At lvl 20 arcane strike adds +5 damage on all his attacks for the round, potentially granting him an additional 25 damage.

Do you honestly still think the furious focus build is a superior damage dealer?


Kudaku wrote:

Quickened Magic is useable once per day. I wouldn't really rely on it as anything other than a nice "need that spell cast right now"-ability.

Think about it like this:

Your furious focus character gets a maximum of 1 attack per round on lvl 20, if he wants to use spellstrike.

My completely identical character gets five attacks per round at level 20, three of which have his full attack bonus -2. Each attack will have slightly lower damage than yours, but is still entirely viable.

Do you honestly still think the furious focus build is a superior damage dealer?

I think he has more maneuverability in combat and thus has more options.

You are still counting on getting a full round action in there to get all those attacks, I guess that bladed dash can help with maneuvering, but it still doesn't get the spellstrike going.

I'm more or less sold on using a kitana/bastard sword with proficiency and switching my tactics based on whether or not I can get to use full round actions. So I can still do all that silly stuff you are selling to me, but still keep my concept.

And so I am a rogue who's job isn't to do rogue things, but instead of sneak attack I get spellstrike, but my job isn't to do damage? I don't understand. If I was going to focus on battlefield control, I would be the wizard of the team, not the magus. I am a melee fighter.


You're certainly entitled to playing your character however you want, I'm just presenting options and pointing out flaws since you specifically mentioned optimization guides and how close you got in your OP. I'd say you're about halfway, but ignoring Spellstrike is certainly not the best option. I'm guessing you haven't found Dervish Dancer yet either.

As for DRS3's post and your reply, you need to play smarter. You're a magus, Roleplay that 18 intelligence. You're not the dumb brute of a fighter the party keeps around so he hits things. You certainly have the option of putting out the hurt in melee, but that's not all you can do. You have the option of casting any spell from the magus list AND delivering full attacks. Spell Combat lets you make the action economy your b~*$~!

Finally, maneuverability... Your character can only cast melee touch spells if he wants to do an attack each round, or he's making normal full attacks. Basically you're playing a fighter who uses a shocking grasp.

A magus who takes full benefit of Spell Combat is infinitely more flexible.

As for your idea to run with a katana or a bastard sword WITH proficiency, I think that's not bad at all. The downside of course is that exotic weapon proficiency are usually trap options, right now you're spending a feat to get an average of +1 damage. I'd still say there are better feat options. I already mentioned Arcane Strike for +5 damage on each attack, though that steals your swift action. As an alternative, Weapon Specialization nets you a +2 damage for the same cost as EWP.


I am aware of the dervish dance build, but action economy is my b*tch anyway.

Don't forget I am taking spell perfection, and greater spell specialization, letting me expend basically any level spell slot I want SPONTANEOUSLY (so I can prepare all those other spells) and still get my quickened and intensified Shocking Grasp, deliver it with spellstrike, and get my full round. Spell Combat gives me an extra attack, sure, but do I need it?

That was kinda the point of the build, to NOT go dervish dance.

Liberty's Edge

Mine doesn't use dervish dance either. I don't see it as the end-all of the Magus...I prefer a Str build. Not saying there's anything wrong with it...but it's not the only option. :)


Revised feat list:

traits: Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp); Heirloom Weapon (Proficiency with Backstory Fluffed Kitana)
lvl 1) Spell Focus (Evocation); Spell Specialization (Shocking Grasp)
lvl 3) Power Attack; (Magus Arcana) Arcane Accuracy
lvl 4) +1 STR (18)
lvl 5) Weapon Focus (Kitana); Intensified Spell
lvl 6) (Magus Arcana) Empowered Magic
lvl 7) Death From Above
lvl 8) +1 INT (18)
lvl 9) Furious Focus; (Magus Arcana) Hasted Assault
lvl 11) Piercing Spell; Weapon Specialization (Kitana)
lvl 12) +1 CON (14); (Magus Arcana) Maximized Magic
lvl 13) Quicken Spell
lvl 15) Spell Perfection (Shocking Grasp); (Magus Arcana) Quickened Magic
lvl 16) +1 WIS (10)
lvl 17) Greater Spell Specialization; Greater Weapon Focus (Kitana)
lvl 18) (Magus Arcana) Critical Strike
lvl 19) Arcane Strike

Get to pick between Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch at lvl 1, Shocking Grasp can be Spontaneously cast at any spell level 1 or above intensified and quickened thanks to a combination of Spell Perfection and Magical Lineage, Vampiric Touch can be cast at any level 3 or above the same way. If selecting Vampiric Touch, then replace Piercing Spell with Thanatopic Spell.


Ah, no wonder we can't agree. I'm debating out of a perspective that we're making a magus build that needs to do more than one attack a day.

Furthermore, Spell Perfection requires you to actually have the feat you want to apply to the spell - your build does not show Quicken Spell anywhere.

Edit: Ah, you posted your new build while I was writing this up. Disregard the bit on Quicken Spell.

Using Greater Spell Specialization and applying any kind of metamagic would increase the casting speed from standard to full-round. Finally, this ability is pointless anyway since you have spell recall and improved spell recall.

I can't wrap my head around your logic, to me it's like you're playing a level 20 wizard but you decided to ignore spellcasting in order to focus on that nifty "Hand of the Apprentice" ability to do melee attacks at 30 feet range 3+intelligence mod times a day.


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No but you are on the medium BAB table and for a good chunk of your career in light armor with low AC (and low dex so worse ac than a rogue), that means you think in melee combat like a rogue until at least level 7.

For a simple example. You spell combat, strike with your weapon, 5 ft step back, cast vanish.

If you try to do this whole charger deal (which isnt bad damage wise) but fail to drop the guy, you are in a World of Hurt. You are down AC from charge standing next to a guy that you just hit for a boatload of damage and may be subject to his full attack. At level 1 assuming Studded leather you are +3 armor, +1 dex, -2 charge = AC 12, if you mage armor (not sure why but if you do you are AC 13 in that case, Shield, gives you 16 both 17 but, then you really don't have the spell slots to burn for Shocking Grasp . Now full attacks are not an issue at level 1 but you are also rocking 10 hp (assuming favored bonus into hp which is yes in this case). It does not matter how awesome your level 13 build is if you are a corpse by level 2.

The low level STR based magus is amongst the lowest defense characters in the game. At higher levels you have the armor to stop the Iteratives, and the tricks to avoid the first attack, and to get them out and still have offense to spare you are going to want spell combat and not always with Shocking Grasp or its Intensified version.

In games where I played a STR based magus (Hexcrafter) I very VERY rarely used Shocking grasp, and there were precious few times I used spell strike outside of Frostbite. Where I made my party happy was the sheer amount of conditions I could place on a target, Entangled, Fatigued, Shaken, with frostbite, staggered, entangled, shaken, with a Rime Frigid touch, when I used my merciful weapon. ACs got so low between debuffs that all the melee chars including the Cleric at times went with full powerattacks, which equated to more damage than I could EVER hope to pump out with the shocking grasp schtik.


Kudaku wrote:

Ah, no wonder we can't agree. I'm debating out of a perspective that we're making a magus build that needs to do more than one attack a day.

Furthermore, Spell Perfection requires you to actually have the feat you want to apply to the spell - your build does not show Quicken Spell anywhere.

Edit: Ah, you posted your new build while I was writing this up. Disregard the bit on Quicken Spell.

Using Greater Spell Specialization and applying any kind of metamagic would increase the casting speed from standard to full-round. Finally, this ability is pointless anyway since you have spell recall and improved spell recall.

I can't wrap my head around your logic, to me it's like you're playing a level 20 wizard but you decided to ignore spellcasting in order to focus on that nifty "Hand of the Apprentice" ability to do melee attacks at 30 feet range 3+intelligence mod times a day.

Quickening is still a swift action if spontaneous.

D20PFSRD wrote:
Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell, or a druid spontaneously casting a summon nature's ally spell, can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as a swift action.

Emphasis mine.

Meaning one thing: If I get my full round under Haste like you do, I get 5 attacks also, using Power Attack and getting roughly 1.5x the damage. but if you were to take Spell Perfection and Greater Spell Specialization, you would actually get six and be able to use Spellstrike twice in the same turn.

So, where X represents total DPR, does the 5 times the .5X extra damage I do for my full round exceed the extra 1DPR damage you get from a whole other attack added to yours?

It actually ends up being about the same.

EDIT: I also want to add that casting a Quickened Spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and thus nullifies the need for defensive casting in this build.


Let me see if I have this straight.

Your level 15+ character uses Quicken Spell (which is only available as an option from level 15, which is very close to end-game), then does his full attack series. He takes the full penalty from power attack on all his attacks except the first one, should he choose to use power attack.

My level 15+ character also uses Quicken Spell, then does his full attack series, then casts another spell, which can be any spell from the magus spell list he has available. I have 1 additional spell per round and potentially one additional spell strike in the air, if I choose to use that spell. I take the full penalty from power attack on all my attacks, should I choose to use it.

So up until level 15 the Spell Combat build has five attacks per round, while the two-handed build has one.

And from level 15 the spell combat build only beats the two-handed build by having one extra spell per round.

...Yeah, I still think my build comes out ahead here.

And finally, using Greater Spell Specialization means your shocking grasp would cap out at 5d6, since you're unable to apply Intensify to the spell without turning it into a full round action. Compared to that I'm casting 12d6 shocking grasps twice each round from level 15 onwards - with my level 1 spell slots. And that's basically treating the magus as a blunt object, when it is so much more.

Shadow Lodge

To Kensi or blade bonded and you get free weapon proficiency in any one weapon, any weapon you want, jus throwing that out there


Kudaku wrote:

Let me see if I have this straight.

Your level 15+ character uses Quicken Spell (which is only available as an option from level 15, which is very close to end-game), then does his full attack series. He takes the full penalty from power attack on all his attacks except the first one, should he choose to use power attack.

My level 15+ character also uses Quicken Spell, then does his full attack series, then casts another spell, which can be any spell from the magus spell list he has available. I have 1 additional spell per round and potentially one additional spell strike in the air, if I choose to use that spell. I take the full penalty from power attack on all my attacks, should I choose to use it.

So up until level 15 the Spell Combat build has five attacks per round, while the two-handed build has one.

And from level 15 the spell combat build only beats the two-handed build by having one extra spell per round.

...Yeah, I still think my build comes out ahead here.

And finally, using Greater Spell Specialization means your shocking grasp would cap out at 5d6, since you're unable to apply Intensify to the spell without turning it into a full round action. Compared to that I'm casting 12d6 shocking grasps twice each round from level 15 onwards - with my level 1 spell slots. And that's basically treating the magus as a blunt object, when it is so much more.

Sir, I do believe that as long as it remains Quickened, and I let the metamagic feats add up, it will still be a swift action, because it is still a Quickened spell, unless there is a rule somewhere that says I cannot apply more than one metamagic feat to a spontaneous spell.

I said the build didn't mature until later anyway. Not to mention I still can spell combat just like you as this build has proficiency with the kitana. Being able to land 2 hits on a charge, including a spellstrike, from the air is a lot more advantageous tactically than relying on being able to stand in one place to satisfy your build's abilities, unless you find a way to cast bladed dash as your quickened spell and get yourself right in front of who you want to spell combat at.

A kensai might accomplish what I'm doing with this build better if and only if it didn't give up armor, as this is a heavy armor (and low dex) build.


Interesting, I never noticed that Spontaneous metamagic overrides the speed penalty if it includes Quicken Magic.

You said earlier that the build matured at lvl 13, I'd definitely argue that this is nigh unplayable till 15.

In my personal opinion your build struggles to keep up after 15 and before 15 it gets blown out of the water by a conventional magus even if he's only using the same feats.

If he customized his feats and spells to take full advantage of the magus abilities, he'd be in a different galaxy entirely.

Liberty's Edge

Kudaku wrote:

Interesting, I never noticed that Spontaneous metamagic overrides the speed penalty if it includes Quicken Magic.

You said earlier that the build matured at lvl 13, I'd definitely argue that this is nigh unplayable till 15.

In my personal opinion your build struggles to keep up after 15 and before 15 it gets blown out of the water by a conventional magus even if he's only using the same feats.

If he customized his feats and spells to take full advantage of the magus abilities, he'd be in a different galaxy entirely.

What's a 'conventional Magus'? Are their rules on how you have to build it, to be conventional?


EldonG wrote:
What's a 'conventional Magus'? Are their rules on how you have to build it, to be conventional?

I'd say a magus that is specifically designed to not use his defining class ability, specifically Spell Combat, would qualify as "unconventional". Conversely, a magus that does use Spell Combat would qualify as conventional.

Of course (like I've said repeatedly) you can play your character however you want but since Marshmallow specifically wanted to discuss optimization, it doesn't seem unreasonable to point out that what his build is trying to do looks to me personally like a direction that is most likely not optimal.

Shadow Lodge

I have a hexcrafter bladebonded Kensi and it was the most awesome thing I ever played and it was rather unconventional, first move I scar the biggest opponent then I hit him with a bestow curse flaming shocking +3 bastard sword that is treated as a bane weapon cause he's under my hex

Liberty's Edge

Kudaku wrote:
EldonG wrote:
What's a 'conventional Magus'? Are their rules on how you have to build it, to be conventional?

I'd say a magus that is specifically designed to not use his defining class ability, specifically Spell Combat, would qualify as "unconventional". Conversely, a magus that does use Spell Combat would qualify as conventional.

Of course (like I've said repeatedly) you can play your character however you want but since Marshmallow specifically wanted to discuss optimization, it doesn't seem unreasonable to point out that what his build is trying to do looks to me personally like a direction that is most likely not optimal.

No...I agree. I just wasn't sure what you meant. Spell combat can be pretty sweet. I've seen plenty of classes with abilities that people just gloss over...not a big deal...but this is one that I'd call significant.


Not to mention he has skipped over the one thing that will boost his Shocking Grasp damage by 40%. The Xblooded Sorc 0rc/bluedragon dip.


EldonG wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
EldonG wrote:
What's a 'conventional Magus'? Are their rules on how you have to build it, to be conventional?

I'd say a magus that is specifically designed to not use his defining class ability, specifically Spell Combat, would qualify as "unconventional". Conversely, a magus that does use Spell Combat would qualify as conventional.

Of course (like I've said repeatedly) you can play your character however you want but since Marshmallow specifically wanted to discuss optimization, it doesn't seem unreasonable to point out that what his build is trying to do looks to me personally like a direction that is most likely not optimal.

No...I agree. I just wasn't sure what you meant. Spell combat can be pretty sweet. I've seen plenty of classes with abilities that people just gloss over...not a big deal...but this is one that I'd call significant.

Sorry if I came over too strong, English is not my first language - I can get a little defensive about it sometimes :-).


Kudaku wrote:
EldonG wrote:
What's a 'conventional Magus'? Are their rules on how you have to build it, to be conventional?

I'd say a magus that is specifically designed to not use his defining class ability, specifically Spell Combat, would qualify as "unconventional". Conversely, a magus that does use Spell Combat would qualify as conventional.

Of course (like I've said repeatedly) you can play your character however you want but since Marshmallow specifically wanted to discuss optimization, it doesn't seem unreasonable to point out that what his build is trying to do looks to me personally like a direction that is most likely not optimal.

But my new build took Heirloom Weapon specifically so he could use Spell Combat until later levels with the kitana...

I like the no miss chance on a big attack offered by the combination of furious focus and death from above.
I also like the idea of not needing to prepare shocking grasp ever post level 13.
Knock it all you want, but it can't be that bad.

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