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How about a community-based, informal difficulty rating system that would provide difficulty levels for each tier?
That's what we try to do with reviews.
I suggest that perhaps you make an ongoing (informal) poll and see how that works for everyone. It might be cool if you could ask one or two other questions as well.
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@Jason S: That was an extreme example to make a point.
I could also use my Mystery of Life Oracle who had to DUO the Statue encounter in Echoes of the Overwatched at tier 4-5 with another PC because 2 party members (of a 4-person party) wandered away from combat to investigate the next room after they couldn't overcome the DR.
Again, it didn't matter what my skill building a character or my mastery of the the system when half the party decides not to participate. If the GM didn't get fed up, stop the game and read them the riot act (after I had blown almost all of my spells and channels on that one fight and could only Aid Another), that was a TPK in the making.
Now swap "decides not to participate" to "cannot contribute."
As pointed out earlier, from mid-levels onwards, you need a build that is capable and effective--hopefully in multiple areas. S4 requires that in your party, especially for the high tiers.
(I would like to state that I'm a staunch advocate of "play what you want to play--we'll make it work"...but that is based on the assumption you know how to play what you're playing and the character is solidly built.)
Again, I thoroughly enjoy the challenge of S4 as a player...but I do not enjoy the faint worry I feel about a table's capabilities when I sit down to play with people I don't know.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I was actually thinking of an off-site Google Doc, much like the GM resources database. It would have, in the backend, a form and a spreadsheet. I'd be willing to set something up if there's interest.How about a community-based, informal difficulty rating system that would provide difficulty levels for each tier?That would be kinda cool. I dont know how well it would work on these forums since it couldnt be constantly updated, unless a Paizo employee did it for us.
If this did work, this would be a way to do those spoiler type tags (heavy RP, heavy combat, puzzles, etc) that someone suggested be added to scenarios awhile back.
Why don't you get together with PFCBG and get it placed on the GM resource page?
Or would that keep players from seeing it? Is that a goal? Not sure, here...
I could do that, but I'd be worried about its visibility, and about players going into the GM database to see it, then being unable to resist the temptation to look at stat blocks.
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How about a community-based, informal difficulty rating system that would provide difficulty levels for each tier?That would be kinda cool. I dont know how well it would work on these forums since it couldnt be constantly updated, unless a Paizo employee did it for us.
If this did work, this would be a way to do those spoiler type tags (heavy RP, heavy combat, puzzles, etc) that someone suggested be added to scenarios awhile back.
I'll start
I'll list difficulty and then say what sorts of stuff it has.
Silent Tide--Horrendously Easy, even the 4-5 is super-easy for level 1s. Interesting combats, mini-puzzle encounter
Hydra's Fang--Slightly Below Average. Mostly combat.
Murder on the Silken Caravan--Somewhat Hard, surprisingly for Season 0. Opportunities for lots of RP, but the scripted encounters are combat.
Frozen Fingers--Easy. Interesting RP possibilities. Mostly combat.
Mists of Mwangi--Average. All combat.
Black Waters--Below Average. Plenty of RP potential and atmosphere depending on the GM. Lots of combat.
Among the Living--Below Average. Lots of source material for great RP, but the GM has to bring it. Otherwise pretty much all combat.
Slave Pits of Absalom--Easy. Plenty of RP potential in the encounters. Also possible to be all combat.
Prince of Augustana--Easy. Several RP opportunities. Mostly combat.
Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch--Difficulty Varies, but generally Below Average (one encounter can be deadly at certain tiers and the rest are an utter joke that a single character can solo). This scenario is horrible--you can't RP past anything, no matter what, you have to fight innocents.
To Scale the Dragon--Below Average. All combat, but one of them is quite interesting.
Perils of the Pirate Pact--Quite Easy. Potential for RP if the GM is very familiar with the River Kingdoms, but you have to add it in yourself. Otherwise all combat.
King Xeros--Average (with a possibility for a truly horrible fate). All combats.
Fingerprints of the Fiend--??? Playing it next month.
Tide of Morning--Very Easy. Potential for some RP. Plenty of combats.
Decline of Glory--Extremely Easy. RP potential if the GM reads up on Taldor and adds stuff in. Otherwise lots of fights.
Lots at Bitter End--Above Average. All fights, but some very interesting settings.
Our Lady of Silver--Slightly Below Average (all trivial except for one encounter that's much harder than the rest due to the Bestiary version of the monster being much harder than the 3.5 version). Plenty of RP, especially if you read the thread and add in wedding and trial stuff.
Lyrics of Extinction--???
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Devil We Know 1--Very Easy at higher tiers, Quite Easy (with a potential snag for an all level 1 party) at 1-2. All Combat.
Devil We Know 2--Very Easy. All combat.
Sniper in the Deep--???
Drow of the Darklands Pyramid--???
Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible--Very Easy. Tons of possibilities for RP/diplomatic encounters.
Encounter at the Drowning Stones--Below Average. Plenty of RP potential. Also fights.
Voice in the Void--Below Average. All fights except for one absolutely awesome RP encounter that isn't in the low tier.
Echoes 1--???
Beggar's Pearl--Very Easy (one encounter can be long and frustrating but it can't really finish the job). Some RP possibilities, but mostly combat.
No Plunder, No Pay--???
Citadel of Flame--Slightly Above Average. Slight RP possibility, mostly combat. Don't play 4-5 with a level 1.
Hall of Drunken Heroes--Average. Plenty of RP possibilities. Awesome fights.
Devil We Know 3--Easy. RP opportunities, puzzles, and fights.
Echoes 2--???
Pallid Plague--Very Easy. Good RP opportunities. Quasi skill challenge. And of course plenty of fights.
Echoes 3--???
Delirium's Tangle--Quite Easy. Lots of skill-based fun. And plenty of easy fights too.
Eyes 1--???
Darkest Vengeance--Varies Wildly (the 1-2 can be a sure TPK if you don't follow the clues). Plenty of fights, and some puzzling clues.
Devil We Know 4--Above Average (don't be shocked by the other 3 being easy!). All fights with a tiny interlude.
Among the Dead--Very Easy. Traps and fights.
Fortune's Blight--Above Average to Somewhat Hard (depends on prep for last encounter). RP, but in the end, they'll all be fights.
City of Strangers 1--Below Average. Plenty of RP and some good fights.
City of Strangers 2--Very Easy. Plenty of RP and some fights.
Echoes 4--???
Eyes 2--???
Infernal Vault--Below Average. Potential RP. Mini puzzle. Lots of fights.
Jester's Fraud--Easy. Plenty of RP. Also fights.
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Before the Dawn 1--Average (one pretty tough fight that may have illegal stats, rest very easy). RP, skills, and fights.
Before the Dawn 2--Easy at 1-2, Average at 3-4, Extremely Easy at 6-7 (can't handle PCs with 3rd level magic). Some RP, lots and lots of fights.
Rebel's Ransom--Very Hard. Puzzles, fights, a little RP, and devious Jason Bulmahn antics.
Shadows Fall--Easy. Fights, a little RP, and an extremely easy "mystery".
Eyes 3--???
Heresy 1--Slightly Below Average (one encounter can go bad if you aren't prepared for it). Fights, some RP.
Heresy 2--Hard. Fights and mild mini-puzzles.
Sarkorian Prophecy--Hard. Fights and some possible RP.
Heresy 3--Somewhat Hard. Fights and some RP.
Fury of the Fiend--??? playing next month
Penumbral Accords--Below Average. All fights.
Silver Tarn--Hard. RP, skills, and fights. Wow, I guess all the Crystal scenarios have all three, huh?.
Throaty Mermaid--Very Easy. Lots and lots of RP. Mystery. A few fights.
Chasm of Screams--???
Shades of Ice 1--4-5 is Easy, 1-2 is Hard. Plenty of RP and some fights.
Flesh Collector--???
Shades of Ice 2--Below Average. Lots of RP potential if you have Cities of Golarion. Lots of fights.
Forbidden Furnace--Below Average. Plenty of fights. Very little RP. (PLAYED THIS ONLY)
Shades of Ice 3--Quite Easy. Plenty of fights. A good RP opportunity.
Wrath of the Accursed--Pretty Hard. Plenty of fights. A mystery and some RP.
Dalsine Affair--Hard. Plenty of fights. Also good RP and story.
Eyes 4--???
Shadow's Last Stand 1--Above Average. All fights.
Shadow's Last Stand 2--Below Average. Mystery, RP, politics, and fights.
You Only Die Twice--Average. Excellent RP opportunities. Also fights.
Mantis's Prey--Average. Fights, Puzzle, some RP.
Year of the Shadow Lodge--Average. Fights, though two noncombat things.
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Frostfur Captives--Average. Fights, loads of great RP.
Sewer Dragons--Average. Fights, lots of RP.
Ghenett Manor--Slightly Above Average. Lots of fights. Several good RP opportunities.
Kortos Envoy--???
Tide of Twilight--Somewhat Hard. Lots of fights. Good RP.
Song of the Sea Witch--Slightly Easy. Fights. Minor RP.
Echoes of the Overwatched--Slightly Easy. Fights and RP.
Among the Gods--Below Average. Basically all fights.
Quest for Perfection 1--Hard. Basically all fights.
Immortal Conundrum--Below Average. Tons of amazing RP. Then fights.
Quest for Perfection 2--Below Average (due to nova potential). Lots of RP and fights.
Wonders in the Weave 1--Average. Lots of interesting fights. (PLAYED ONLY, NOT GMED)
Quest for Perfection 3--Slightly Above Average. Fights, RP, skills, interesting setup.
Wonders in the Weave 2--Very Easy. Plenty of fights, lots of RP.
Haunting of Hinojai--Average. High RP potential depending on the GM and what the party does. Few fights.
Midnight Mauler--Below Average. Good use of RP, skills, and fights.
Red Harvest--Below Average. Plenty of RP. Also a few fights.
God's Market Gamble--Somewhat Hard. RP, Skills, Mystery, and Fights.
Icebound Outpost--Easy. Basically all fights. (PLAYED ONLY, NOT GMED)
Rats 1--Very Hard (could be easier for compromising PCs). Some RP. Lots of fights.
Temple of Empyreal Snlightenment--Very Hard. Lots of RP. Hard fights.
Rats 2--Very Hard. Some RP. Lots of fights.
Goblinblood Dead--Easy. Starts with some good RP. Then plenty of easy fights, with some RP potential.
Golden Serpent--Average. Plenty of RP. Plenty of fights.
Storming the Diamond Gate--Hard. Some RP. Lots of fights. Mild riddles.
Portal of the Sacred Rune--Hard. Basically all fights.
Cyphermage Dilemma--Easy. Needs a lot of work from the GM to play up the RP. Also some easy fights.
Blood Under Absalom--Above Average. Loaded full of everything to the point it can't fit the slot.
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Rise of the Goblin Guild--Above Average. RP, skill uses, and fights.
In Wrath's Shadow--Hard. Basically all fights.
Golemworks Incident--Somewhat Hard. RP and fights.
King of the Storval Stairs--Hard. Basically all fights.
The Sanos Abduction--Slightly Below Average. RP and fights.
The Green Market--Average. RP, story, and fights.
Severing Ties--Very Hard (with a potential horrible fate). Great RP and some gimmicky fights.
Cultist's Kiss--Hard. Plenty of RP, mystery, and some tough fights.
Blakros Matrimony--Difficulty Unclear (about to run it). Tons of RP. Few fights.
Feast of Sigils--Hard (very hard without the right spell, like the time I ran it). Plenty of RP and some tough fights.
The Disappeared--Slightly Below Average (the fights anyway). Mostly skills/mystery, then RP, then fights. One distasteful part where player speed at doing a puzzle determines victory, so you better put the puzzle guy OOC on it even if he brings the 7 Int barbarian
The Refuge of Time--Somewhat Hard (could be worse if you fight a diplomacy-able enemy with some nasty abilities). Mostly fights, but some RP in there too.
Fortress of the Nail--Difficulty Unclear (Read it once to run at a con but then lsot the slot). Seems like plenty of RP followed by extreme challenge.
My Enemy's Enemy--Above Average. RP, mini-puzzle, mini-mystery, fights.
Everything Released After That--???
Race for the Runecarved Key--Hard. Tons of everything. Way too long for a slot.
Day of the Demon--Average. RP and skills, minor mystery. Also a few fights.
Living City used to add to many of their adventure descriptions stuff like "this is a investigative adventure for levels x to y" or "this is a dungeon crawl/heavy combat/roleplaying-focused adventure", etc.
Might not be a bad idea.
I for one would love to see lighter fluffy scenarios in PFS from time to time. Like maybe one with no combat even. Everything's so serious lately.
-j
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Not gonna lie. I personally enjoy a challenge, even more so if it's one with a real chance of killing my characters off. We all put time and effort into our characters, it's true, but I just don't think I'd have as much fun if I knew I would rarely face a real possibility of losing them. So no, my personal opinion is that it has not gone too far into hard mode. I also find the current level of combat to be acceptable. That said, I've been an avid D&Der since I was five back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. I'm used to being shafted at every possible turn, so the fact that PFS at least provides some semblance of fairness is something I can (and do) greatly appreciate. Still... I think even higher difficulty would make me a happy camper.
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My only problem with the high chalange in season 4 is the reward does not match the risk. The games are very enjoyable that I have played so far.
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My only problem with the high chalange in season 4 is the reward does not match the risk. The games are very enjoyable that I have played so far.
** spoiler omitted **
Oh yes, I know all too well of what you speak. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Admittedly, the rewards do sometimes feel as if they're lacking slightly. But then, to some people that might make it more fun. There's a real sense of accomplishment when you have to fight tooth and nail just to get ahead even a little. The group I play with very nearly experienced a TPK in the final encounter. We weren't even playing up.
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I think the rewarfds are greater than the previous seasons. It honestly feels like they are offering something new and neat on every scenario now. I love the boons that are being offered.
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I have yet to kill any character in my organized sessions, and have played a number of the season 4 scenarios. My players are a range of optimizations, from totally to not at all. There have been close calls, and times I have deliberately backed off on weakened party members. (The most recent being in Fabric of Reality yesterday when the cleric was on the ropes.) I'm not seeing the same issue the OP is.
Backing off is the sign of an experienced GM. You in what some would term cheating gave the players a break. Thid is done when we keep in mind that it is an RPG and not a Us vs Them board game. I like leaving rolls as they lay but I've knocked off a few hundred hp's off critters if I thought the party was headed for a TPK.
I have also added hp's to bosses I thought wee turning to mush to quickly resulting in a boring fight.
S.
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Backing off is the sign of an experienced GM. You in what some would term cheating gave the players a break. Thid is done when we keep in mind that it is an RPG and not a Us vs Them board game. I like leaving rolls as they lay but I've knocked off a few hundred hp's off critters if I thought the party was headed for a TPK.
I have also added hp's to bosses I thought wee turning to mush to quickly resulting in a boring fight.
S.
Stefan, I am assuming you are talking about Non PFS Games? You are not allowed to Adjust HPs as a GM in PFS games.
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Stefan, I am assuming you are talking about Non PFS Games? You are not allowed to Adjust HPs as a GM in PFS games.
And that was not at all what I did in any case. I simply shifted the enemy focus to a new target that had presented itself.
@Dragonmoon: Yes that example was non-PFS and really just meant as an example. Sorry for confusion/alarm it may have cuased.
@TriOmegaZero: By on the ropes, do you mean the Cleric was down (0 hp or less) or just likely to be DOA if they continued to be in the fight?
S.
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@TriOmegaZero: By on the ropes, do you mean the Cleric was down (0 hp or less) or just likely to be DOA if they continued to be in the fight?
As I recall, he was getting hammered repeatedly, faster than he could heal himself, and had been knocked prone to keep him from getting away. The sorcerer summoned an elemental to attack the enemy before the cleric went unconscious.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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So, if you have characters that game the system, King of the Stoval Stairs is easy.
Problem is, not everyone has optimized characters. Part of the tactics is to split the party!!!
It is a very poorly written scenario with no real story value and no role play. It is a succession of battles, two of them back to back with no chance to recover.
Half the fliers having the ranged attacks mistakenly made to all of them peppering the PC's aside, it is insane and a likely TPK... cept, ofcourse, for the optimized group.
Perhaps a Bard that starts putting everything asleep?
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Blah, Blah, Blah...sorry folks, but this conversation just seems to boil down to one unavoidable thing. Each of us has little to no control over who sits at the gaming table with us for a given scenario and the difficulty of the game is directly related to the party mix which includes character strength/weaknesses, player strength/weaknesses, and GM strength/weaknesses. One person's cake-walk is another's tpk. We will never come to a consensus on which scenarios are too hard and which are too easy. All I can confirm about season four, from my point of view, is that it has given GMs more tools to make encounters more challenging. It still falls to the GM on how/when to use those tools. If you are seeing a significant increase in PC deaths, or tpk's, then maybe *you* need to re-evaluate your GMing style. Easing up does not have to mean soft-balling. YMMV.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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Tools would be fine if we were allowed to vary on some of the difficulties that are within the pages. Having some of the things we have seen in 4th season, like Fliers peppering the PCs from afar as they are tranced, a monster that is several CR's above the party level, and other unfortunate events tends to be a bit rough on the players.
It also seems that RP heavy scenarios tries to make up for the lack of something with heavy hitters and above tier encounters. This isn't a good direction for the Organized play.
I hope 5th season tempers down some of the inconsistencies and the level of thumbscrews.
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What bob said!
I played Refuge of time yesterday, today I read the scenario because i'm considering running it for my home group, because i had a blast!
I didn't feel that it was very difficult overall, when I played it.
Upon reading the scenario, I discovered that the final fight could have been MUCH more challenging. Now I play a character that is very similar to the final boss - Conjuration specialist wizard -.
I know what all his spells do, and spend a lot of time using those types of spells to pick apart NPCs, if I were running that enemy it would certainly be more dangerous than it was.
I think our GM ran a great scenario, but that wasn't his character to run as an NPC (while it's very close to mine). That difference alone turns that encounter from "pretty easy" to "challenging"
I have found that if you have a strong ranged combat character in your party, a lot of scenarios become MUCH easier.
Of course, said character needs to stay alive...
-j
Hah. Yes.
Though I will say I totally forgot I had a re-roll available.
-j
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The fact of the matter is that party composition and competence have as much to do with it as actual difficulty in the game material itself. A group might be ill equipped to face X challenge, perhaps cripplingly so in some cases. Some fights render melee all but useless whereas others might completely jib casters. Player skill also has a lot to do with it. Depending on the situation one bad apple can cause the whole tree to burst into inextinguishable flames.
The game is forgiving in my opinion, even in many of what some people have been stated to consider extremely difficult encounters. A balanced party will do well even if not min-maxed. Heck, an improperly balanced party will still do well if people take the time to coordinate their actions.
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Speaking as one of those people who are freshly coming into PFS...
I've been extremely fortunate: the GMs I have played with have been genuinely uninterested in killing characters. This is quite transparent in season 4 scenarios, as my character gets knocked unconscious so regularly that the narcoleptic jokes have already gotten old. The bad guys will fight until the brave hero drops and then suddenly decide that they have somewhere else to be.
The majority of my experience has been season 4 (1-5, low tier) scenarios at a convention. 3 of the 4 season 4 scenarios we played were near TPK's that closely resembled a game of whack-a-mole with one character (either immune to the sleep effect or a healer) jumping between the fallen characters and reviving them. One scenario flat out owned us halfway through, and the GM had to facepalm and come up with a workable excuse for us all to be captured alive rather than killed out of hand. (To add salt to the wound, I've seen that scenario referred to as 'below average' and one of the easiest ones that have come out in S4.) The only scenario that *didn't* feature a game of whack-a-mole was a top tier 3-7 that had two experienced, tactics oriented, power gamer players with level 6 damage dealer characters and two level 7 pregens (wizard and cleric) who focused on buffing and support. In that one, the GM very kindly failed to pay attention to the occasional piece of OOC 'advice' about this being a really great time if we happened to have a certain spell prepared.
Getting back to my point: my experience with season 2 and 3 scenarios have been fun and challenging. Characters would get struck down, but the bad guys had to work for it, and allies could usually cut through to the downed character and revive them. My experience with season 4 has been either involved hiding behind/supporting the minmaxed and tactically smart characters... or having the GM deliberately back down and start playing stupid so that they could avoid killing us. I should add that there were just as many minmaxing/experienced players in these games, but the characters were lower level and didn't have the optimized party synergy and strong sense of teamwork that the higher level game had.
I'm extremely grateful for having GMs that don't kill characters, because the season 4 scenarios have made it blatantly obvious that they could be. I've learned a lot from my repeated near deaths, and I've grown a great deal as a player... but I *do* find it somewhat jarring to the story when the GM has to start going out of his way to keep us alive.
Don't get me wrong- I'd rather the GM back off than start killing us all. I just wish that the scenario could be fun and challenging without featuring such an obvious switch from coordinated and tactical enemies to alignment: chaotic stupid.
And in my (limited) experience, season 2 and 3 accomplish just that.
-Myst
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YES IT HAS. People who write scenarios for Paizo try to come up with the deadliest crap possible because they see it as a contest to see who can kill the most players the fastest and they constantly try to "out-do" all the other scenarios that came before. Then the players try to come up with the "most broken" character concept they can get away with in an effort to merely SURVIVE the scenario. And then the writers have to come up with something MORE deadly to try to kill these min-maxxed broken characters.
It just becomes a vicious cycle.Its become such that you can't design a character based on flavor or RP, because that type of character will get obliterated before they see level 2. If you want to make it to max level, you HAVE TO be an uber-munchkin or else you wont make it.
Hardly. APs are harder then PFS scenarios still. And even pretty none optimized characters can run through AP as long as your not stupid.
Intelligent play (I include tactics in this) > Builds.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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YES IT HAS. People who write scenarios for Paizo try to come up with the deadliest crap possible because they see it as a contest to see who can kill the most players the fastest and they constantly try to "out-do" all the other scenarios that came before. Then the players try to come up with the "most broken" character concept they can get away with in an effort to merely SURVIVE the scenario. And then the writers have to come up with something MORE deadly to try to kill these min-maxxed broken characters.
It just becomes a vicious cycle.Its become such that you can't design a character based on flavor or RP, because that type of character will get obliterated before they see level 2. If you want to make it to max level, you HAVE TO be an uber-munchkin or else you wont make it.
Vixeryz, for what it's worth, I felt much the same way that you do for my first 4 scenarios. Then, things started getting rather easy. There have been a few close calls after those 4, but not many. Most GMs also aren't that out for blood, but they do want to run things as written. Personally, I tend to be more lenient with newer players [as I was last night with a near-TPK in Murder on the Silken Caravan], but not everybody is.
If you would like, I'd be more than happy to help you build an RP-heavy character that is well optimized for beginning play. Feel free to just shoot me a PM with a bit about what you're looking for.
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Easing up does not have to mean soft-balling. YMMV.Bob, what do you mean by this? What do you see as the difference between "easing up" and "soft-balling"?
I think this is more of a distinction between using especially lethal tactics (coup de grace, just attacking downed foes) and maybe just moving on when someone is down.
Or perhaps even asking a player if they want to provoke that AoO.
one of our local VCs is very helpful with newer players, but if you're at an 8-9 table and you cast a spell not saying defensively while you're threatened you're going to get attack, no take backs :)
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One of the problems is that the subtiers are often so radically different, you can't make a risk factor the entire scenario. For example, King of the Storval Stairs is a fun time at subtier 7-8, but at subtier 10-11 it's twice as deadly.You have to be kidding?
You’re absolutely right of course. Good tactics and the right spells (or consumables) rule the day.
However, you can’t judge the difficulty of the scenario based on the fact that your group can systematically shut down the powers of the enemy. Even if the enemies hit for 1000 damage, it’s irrelevant if they can’t hit you.
When I said subtier 10-11 is much harder, it was based on the raw data. For only +2 levels difference, the enemies had twice as many HP, gained Scent, Uncanny Dodge (a rogue breaking ability if combined with tactics), substantially increased damage (if the GM factors in power attack which rarely happens), and their Willpower saves for from +3 to +8 (which is a big difference considering we took advantage of that at subtier 7-8).
Also, I wasn’t referring to the ranged combats; I was referring to last fight. In the last fight the GM has a huge sandbox of spells and abilities to work with. I’m sorry, but if a tactically minded GM was running that encounter, they could thrash your group of flying ranged attackers, almost at will. When you get sandbox abilities like that, it’s really about the GM, and how tough he wants (or can) play. It’s night and day.
Btw, you should use spoilers if you're going to be explicit.
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YES IT HAS. People who write scenarios for Paizo try to come up with the deadliest crap possible because they see it as a contest to see who can kill the most players the fastest and they constantly try to "out-do" all the other scenarios that came before. ]
Definitely not. If you want to do that you have a save or die caster with a jacked up DC and a metamagic rod of persistent spell. The scenario writers know LOTS of tricks like this, and they're not using them. They could be much, MUCH deadlier.
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One of the problems is that the subtiers are often so radically different, you can't make a risk factor the entire scenario. For example, King of the Storval Stairs is a fun time at subtier 7-8, but at subtier 10-11 it's twice as deadly.You have to be kidding?You’re absolutely right of course. Good tactics and the right spells (or consumables) rule the day.
However, you can’t judge the difficulty of the scenario based on the fact that your group can systematically shut down the powers of the enemy. Even if the enemies hit for 1000 damage, it’s irrelevant if they can’t hit you.
When I said subtier 10-11 is much harder, it was based on the raw data. For only +2 levels difference, the enemies had twice as many HP, gained Scent, Uncanny Dodge (a rogue breaking ability if combined with tactics), substantially increased damage (if the GM factors in power attack which rarely happens), and their Willpower saves for from +3 to +8 (which is a big difference considering we took advantage of that at subtier 7-8).
Also, I wasn’t referring to the ranged combats; I was referring to last fight. In the last fight the GM has a huge sandbox of spells and abilities to work with. I’m sorry, but if a tactically minded GM was running that encounter, they could thrash your group of flying ranged attackers, almost at will. When you get sandbox abilities like that, it’s really about the GM, and how tough he wants (or can) play. It’s night and day.
Btw, you should use spoilers if you're going to be explicit.
yeah this is basically what I was saying in my other post. if the BBEG is something the GM knows well (like a wizard they are accustomed to playing) the fight can get very hard very fast.
If it's something they aren't familiar with or they just don't want to remove most of the party members actions cause it can be unfun, the fight can get much, much easier.
at low levels an evil cleric casting obscuring mist and then channeling is often times a very lethal encounter :)
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So, funny story about "deadly" subtier 1-2's:
I was absolutely dumbstruck.
They then sat there and vehemently argued that on 150 gold, it's not worth getting a ranged weapon, even after I pointed out that slings are FREE. I usually end up helping new players make their first characters at the store, and I make sure gear wise that each new player comes in with 3 things:
- ranged weapon (for pretty much this precise reason)
- alchemist fire/acid flask (for swarms)
- some method of healing (at the very least, to get a healer up)
And here I am, arguing with people who have more combined D&D experience than I do years on this earth about whether or not a ranged weapon is useful on a brand new character. *shakes head*
I ran it before online, and I watched as the encounter was demolished by ranged weapons. Either way, I got to run high-tier, which is my preference anyway. I got to create all the pits!
With the exception of the most famous one (which had all the scaling problems of a 1-7 anyway), any encounter at subtier 1-2 is beatable if you just stop and think about tactics. And you need to be prepared. I'm not talking scroll library prepared, but basic adventuring gear prepared.
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Honstly clever tactics own any scenario. A clever player with little items can make a difference between easy mode and a TPK. Being prepared helps, but clever ideas are the game breakers. I could list several tactics I have seen, used, and had player use against me that stopped the encounter in it's tracks. You do not need anythign special. The special things(power gamed characters, lots of items, magic, and whatever else) give people more to work with and more to use. Work as a tema and think together. If you play the mode vanilla and go through the steps in as written and walk into every encounter jaw first it should be hard.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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YES IT HAS. People who write scenarios for Paizo try to come up with the deadliest crap possible because they see it as a contest to see who can kill the most players the fastest and they constantly try to "out-do" all the other scenarios that came before. ]Definitely not. If you want to do that you have a save or die caster with a jacked up DC and a metamagic rod of persistent spell. The scenario writers know LOTS of tricks like this, and they're not using them. They could be much, MUCH deadlier.
There is a scenario that does use a "Save or Die!!" spell in 4th season. It killed one of my party.
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I have yet to kill any character in my organized sessions, and have played a number of the season 4 scenarios. My players are a range of optimizations, from totally to not at all. There have been close calls, and times I have deliberately backed off on weakened party members. (The most recent being in Fabric of Reality yesterday when the cleric was on the ropes.) I'm not seeing the same issue the OP is.Backing off is the sign of an experienced GM.
S.Depends entirely on what the tactics of the encounter call for.
If the bad guys think they can win, or live, by being brutal? Expect brutality.
If the bad guys think they might be able to live, but lose, if they threaten a down character unless you throw down weapons and let them leave? Well, if you take a hostile action, you'd better be prepared for an unhappily dead PC...
Roleplay doesn't stop in combat.
Roleplaying doesn't stop combat but the GM can. That is what we are talking about. Mechanically it is better to focus all attacks on one player from all available foes. Once down move on to another player. Very much in the same way players would. A PC or critter on 1 hp does as much damage as one on full hp. The GM can make calls that can turn a potential TPK into an exciting combat - or not.
I do agree with what you are saying about taking a downed character hostage. The specific example however was a player that was not likely to survive another combat round so the GM had the enemy change targets at that point rather than finishing off the character and then changing targets. Common sense would say that taking out one set of actions is better than changing targets and leaving the severely wounded character up and running.
I think the right choice was made, killing characters isn't the point of the game, but is a consequence sometimes however.
S.