Hey all, I'm soon to be joining my first ever game of Pathfinder (or any tabletop RPG, for that matter) and I need some advice on how to build the Rogue I'm hoping to play.
I want to be something akin to a fencer, quick on his feet, in and out of the melee. I want to avoid TWF, because that seems to be the standard way of getting the most out of a rogue in combat, and I want to do something more... creative? Unusual? I dunno, something that isn't seen as often. That said, I also don't care so much about creativity that I'm willing to sacrifice significant combat ability for it. Planning ahead, the rogue talents I've largely dedicated to making my out of combat rogue skills more efficient, except for Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training (which I intend to use for Rapier), although Deadly Sneak, Fast Tumble, and Bleeding Attack are all tempting.
The feats, however, I'm not sure on. So far the only ones I've been keeping fairly firmly are Dodge, Mobility, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses. I want other skills that compliment disabling opponents, keeping them flat-footed, and navigating the battlefield so I can sneak attack them. I was thinking stuff like Agile Maneuvers + the Trip tree, Repositioning Strike, Sneaking Precision, Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Blinding Critical, and Tripping Strike to tie together the Critical and Trip feats. But as I've never played before, I'm not sure how well it might work in combat. It might even be poor on paper, I don't know.
That pretty much wraps it up. Looking at it, I don't think I actually NEED Dodge and Mobility for prerequisites for any of these feats, so I may drop them to make for others. Maybe drop a rogue talent for Combat Trick so I can get another feat. I could also go Swashbuckler for the extra Combat Trick so I could have Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses + 10 of the feats I was considering. Obviously the campaign or the character may not last nearly that long, but I like to plan way in advance. Even if this is fine, or needs only minor tweaking, I'd like to see other options for how to build my character. If you guys have any interesting ideas, even if they're completely different from this, I'd like to see them. Thanks.
Step 1) find a different class
Step 2) if you refuse step 1, decide what class your other 16-18 lvls will be in
Step 3) if you refuse step 1 and 2, prepare to be under-whelmed
Step 4) focus on str > dex, and decide if you are going for a knife master, or thug archetypes to go with scout and try your best to make SA work for you.
Step 5) welcome to the world of rogue-hate...
Seriously though, here is a good fencer for you:
Dervish of dawn/ song striker bard with the azata- blooded Aasimar for the +2 to cha and dex, and the favored class bonus. Traits will be blade of mercy and something else. Weird words will be my ranged attack starting at lvl 6.
Str: 13
Dex: 15 (+2)
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 (+2)
1) dodge
2)
3) power attack
4)
5) imp unarmed strike
6)
7) crane style
8)
9) crane wing
10)
11) crane riposte
12)
At lvl 12 I should be able to get the full +8 to hit and dmg with inspire courage, and another + 4 from power attack which should all multiply on a crit. And 10d8 + cha mod x10 on ranged touch attacks with weird words. It should be a pretty nice little punch.
Hey all, I'm soon to be joining my first ever game of Pathfinder (or any tabletop RPG, for that matter) and I need some advice on how to build the Rogue I'm hoping to play.
I want to be something akin to a fencer, quick on his feet, in and out of the melee. I want to avoid TWF, because that seems to be the standard way of getting the most out of a rogue in combat, and I want to do something more... creative? Unusual? I dunno, something that isn't seen as often. That said, I also don't care so much about creativity that I'm willing to sacrifice significant combat ability for it. Planning ahead, the rogue talents I've largely dedicated to making my out of combat rogue skills more efficient, except for Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training (which I intend to use for Rapier), although Deadly Sneak, Fast Tumble, and Bleeding Attack are all tempting.
The feats, however, I'm not sure on. So far the only ones I've been keeping fairly firmly are Dodge, Mobility, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses. I want other skills that compliment disabling opponents, keeping them flat-footed, and navigating the battlefield so I can sneak attack them. I was thinking stuff like Agile Maneuvers + the Trip tree, Repositioning Strike, Sneaking Precision, Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Blinding Critical, and Tripping Strike to tie together the Critical and Trip feats. But as I've never played before, I'm not sure how well it might work in combat. It might even be poor on paper, I don't know.
That pretty much wraps it up. Looking at it, I don't think I actually NEED Dodge and Mobility for prerequisites for any of these feats, so I may drop them to make for others. Maybe drop a rogue talent for Combat Trick so I can get another feat. I could also go Swashbuckler for the extra Combat Trick so I could have Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses + 10 of the feats I was considering. Obviously the campaign or the character may not last nearly that long, but I like to plan way in advance. Even if this is fine, or needs only minor...
You could try a fighter/rogue hybrid going into duelist.
So like 4rogue/3fighter/10duelist/3fighter or 4rogue/4fighter/10duelist/2fighter.It sounds like you want duelist. 6fighter gets into duelist too. Find some archetypes that trade away the medium and heavy armor proficiencies.
To be frank, if he wants duelist he's better off with scimitar than rapier for dervish dancer.
True an extra 4 to 10 damage per hit. Dervish dancer + duelist is a pretty decent dex melee combatant build.
You could try a fighter/rogue hybrid going into duelist.
So like 4rogue/3fighter/10duelist/3fighter or 4rogue/4fighter/10duelist/2fighter.It sounds like you want duelist. 6fighter gets into duelist too. Find some archetypes that trade away the medium and heavy armor proficiencies.
This is something that I've been considering. Duelist looks fun, but I'm not too keen on multiclassing. I kind of just wanted to stay just straight Rogue, although taking Fighter levels could be just what I'm looking for, and it doesn't seem over the top at all.
Well obviously instead of a Bard you want to play a Wizard, Druid or Cleric. Because anyone playing any other class is just bringing the party down and should be banned from the table. ;'/
Well obviously instead of a Bard you want to play a Wizard, Druid or Cleric. Because anyone playing any other class is just bringing the party down and should be banned from the table. ;'/
No but playing a class that doesn't work as intended is not fun. Since this is an advice forum people will give their advice.
I've seen it in my games, rogue players have trouble doing what they want to do with the class. I buddy of mine favorite class was rogue in 3.5, but after one campaign in pathfinder he hasn't played rogue since then. I can only recommend avoiding pure rogue with any DM who has more than half of each session spent in combat.
Well obviously instead of a Bard you want to play a Wizard, Druid or Cleric. Because anyone playing any other class is just bringing the party down and should be banned from the table. ;'/No but playing a class that doesn't work as intended is not fun. Since this is an advice forum people will give their advice.
I've seen it in my games, rogue players have trouble doing what they want to do with the class. I buddy of mine favorite class was rogue in 3.5, but after one campaign in pathfinder he hasn't played rogue since then. I can only recommend avoiding pure rogue with any DM who has more than half of each session spent in combat.
it works just fine as its intended, YOU simply don't know how to build and play one, sheesh! I recall back when fighters were the worst class, and now its barbarians.
to the OP, just take finesse rogue and weapon training, have a high dexterity, decent intelligence and wisdom. You don't need strength. choose what you want second best, charisma, intelligence, or wisdom, and go from there. Work on flanking a lot with the party tank, so dodge and mobility are nice to have, as is outflank.
All right, thanks everyone. I'm just going to give it a shot and see how it goes. The only way I'll know whether or not it's for me is to give it a shot, right? And I'm not really concerned about doing amazingly, I just want to be a boon rather than a hindrance, and I think I can manage that. Thanks again for all the advice, it's all appreciated.
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Prioxis, I'm interested in learning more about what you want out of your character if you're still around. I think there are some more practical solutions to get you to where you want to go. It sounds like PURE optimization is not necessarily what you're looking for. Also, I noticed you saying that you're not so crazy about charisma, you just want a "here to get the job done" type build, so let me ask you something.
What about the rogue CLASS do you want?
-A ton of skill ranks doesn't seem important to you.
-Sneak attack has good potential damage, but it's not for everyone. If it's damage that you ultimately want, there are other ways to get it without compromising your BAB
-If you wanna be rogue-like, just be a fighter that wears a cloak all the time.
I have two paths/suggestions for you:
1. Take the fighter/duelist prestige path. Keep your strength at 10, and purchase an agile weapon as soon as you can. You will be insanely powerful, your AC will be out of control, and your criticals will stronger for it. This is perfect for a Rapier.
2. Take the Fighter(Swordlord)/Aldori Swordlord prestige path. This path is a lot of fun, and will keep your AC super high, and will allow you to dominate anybody one on one. It also uses "bravado" type stuff to empower yourself or hinder foes. You'll be using an Aldori Dueling Sword here which is exotic, but the criticals with it are awesome.
Either way, you can dump strength and stack dex for both. The swordlord doesn't need intellect, so you could dump that too and boost your Wis for will saves.
All right, thanks everyone. I'm just going to give it a shot and see how it goes. The only way I'll know whether or not it's for me is to give it a shot, right? And I'm not really concerned about doing amazingly, I just want to be a boon rather than a hindrance, and I think I can manage that. Thanks again for all the advice, it's all appreciated.
Good luck! You can decide to follow mine or Piccolo's advice after getting 4 levels of rogue. If you feel your combat process lacking, go fighter/duelist. If everything is fine, keep having fun.
A sub optimal duelist build that has a ton of fun and flavor would be rogue 4/ magus 4/ duelist X. It's not entirely suboptimal when you get all your dmg to line up... In fact you will be the belle of the ball.. Er.. Encounter. It's getting it to all come together that is tricky.
Prioxis, I'm interested in learning more about what you want out of your character if you're still around.
Sure. Well, with regards to skill ranks, the more I think about it the more important I find it, seeing as not many people think a pure Rogue would do the whole dueling thing very well. The massive amount of skill points that Rogues acquire really seems to be their one redeeming feature, aside from Sneak Attacks, and I didn't really want to do Sneak Attacks anyway (I was fine with it, as I was a Rogue, but I just don't really see a duelist sneaking around someone to stab them in the back, rather than just fighting them in a test of mettle). But, I also don't really NEED all those skill ranks. I'll get a fine amount going with fighter/duelist and a decent amount of Int.
What you said about the fighter/duelist path sounds exactly like what I would want, and I could totally justify it with what I have in mind for the character with regards to roleplaying. The thing is (and this is a very disappointing discovery, I have to say), I don't want to be playing another class as a Rogue, only I'd be doing it better than as the actual Rogue. It's ridiculous. If I wanted to play a Rogue, shouldn't I be able to do it as a Rogue? The knowledge that I can get better damage and all the skill points I could ever want, accomplish everything a Rogue can, but better, with a different class, the knowledge that what I intended to be is, for all intents and purposes, completely superfluous, is pissing me off. And maybe I didn't actually want to be a Rogue, I just thought that it would be the best way to get the type of character I wanted. I wanted to be the guy who gets people out of a jam, and I guess I'll be doing that as a fighter.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but the bard I posted earlier could go a long way towards that end. You have all the combat bite of a fighter, skills enough to be usefull, and spells to really support yourself and the rest of the party.
Not that there is anything wrong with fighters... It's just that a bard fills the tool box better than most other classes, making sure that you have some trick up your sleeve for just about anything.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but the bard I posted earlier could go a long way towards that end. You have all the combat bite of a fighter, skills enough to be usefull, and spells to really support yourself and the rest of the party.
Not that there is anything wrong with fighters... It's just that a bard fills the tool box better than most other classes, making sure that you have some trick up your sleeve for just about anything.
Yeah, sorry about ignoring most of your suggestions here, but I really just have no interest spellcasting unless I'm dedicated. If I'm going to duel, I really just want to stab people, and I want to do the jam-getting-out-of with just physical ability. Mainly because of the roleplaying component, and there's no way the character I intend to play is going to be a bard. I appreciate it, though.
Ignore Byrdology. He's being a dick.Ignore Piccolo. He's an atypically lenient GM whose doesn't know how to build effective characters and whose players also do not know how to build effective characters. He does not realize how terrible his advice is because, being the GM, he never sees his advice tested before an impartial GM.
Byrdology is pretty much dead right. Rogues are not a viable swashbuckler. The feint mechanics are so bad as to be useless and everything else you might think swashbuckler-y is a combat maneuver, which rogues are incompetent with.
Rogues cannot be made into a combat class unless you're in an abnormally low optimization game.
An effective swashbuckler will be a full BAB class other than possibly ranger (there's no appropriate ranger combat style unless you take two handed for power attack and prestige out before level 6), possibly going into the duelist prestige class or Aldori Swordlord. If you don't go into Aldori Swordlord you will use a scimitar. It's better for dex builds because of Dervish Dance and it's better for strength builds because it, unlike the rapier, can be used two handed.
You might be able to make a casual swashbuckler out of inquisitor or bard. Magus is superficially similar, but relies so heavily on spellstrike it's not really much of a swashbuckler.
Ironic, considering I have a reputation for killing off PC's willy nilly, and being a hardass when it comes to watching people make their combat rolls.
He's quite wrong. In fact, I have a 3rd level Rogue with an AC22, a 10 to hit, and when flanking (happens every combat btw) he does 2d4+1 plus 2d8 damage regularly (avg 15). Killed more NPC's with mere alchemists fire than the rest of the party put together, as he's an accurate shot and had the goblin Burn! feat.
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I know its not what u asked for but this is a Rogue Ive made and played from level 3-19. Rogue gets a lot of hate but its a good class if u know how to play it and dont dump ur stats. Its 1 of the few classes that having a stat less than 10 can be very bad. Most of the hate from those that play rogue is because they mid max them selves into there uselessness with dumped stats.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Fighter - Lore Warden, Rogue - Thug
-Stats (20 pt)-
STR 28 (Base 15)(+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)
DEX 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
CON 10 (Base 10)
INT 13 (Base 13)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
AC 41 (+ an addition 4 from combat expertise and an additional 5 from defending for a total of 50, also + 10 more from Offensive Defensive)
Touch 21
Flat - Footed 30
-Class / Feats-
R01 EWP Whip, Dodge
R02 Talent Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Whip)
R03 Whip Mastery
R04 Talent Offensive Defense
F05 Mobility, Spring Attack
F06 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
R07 Dazzling Display
R08 Talent Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
R09 Shatter Defenses
R10 Talent Combat Trick (Lunge)
R11 Skill Focus Intimidate
R12 A Talent Improved Evasion
R13 Persuasive
R14 A Talent Entanglement of Blades
R15 Improved Feint
R16 A Talent Feat (Greater Feint)
R17 Skill Focus Bluff
R18 A Talent Skill Mastery
R19 Deceitful
R20 A Talent (w/e u want)
Traits = Bully, Defensive Strategist
-Gear-
+5 Defending Holy Ghost Touch Whip
+5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Shield Cloak
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Natural Armor Necklace
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)
Belt of Physical Might (Str/Dex)
Headband of Alluring Charisma
-Misc-
Character performs a full-round action intimidate to demoralize all enemy targets within a 30ft radius then proceeds to attack with Whirlwind Lunge Attacks that apply Offensive Defense upon all targets or Entanglement of Blades depending on situation. For single targets move action with a whip attack or full-round action intimidate with full attack next round. Intimidate at cap level is d20+48 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Persuasive +5 Cha +9 Str +1 trait) and bluff is d20+38 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Deceitful +5 Cha).
Prioxis, I'm interested in learning more about what you want out of your character if you're still around.
Sure. Well, with regards to skill ranks, the more I think about it the more important I find it, seeing as not many people think a pure Rogue would do the whole dueling thing very well. The massive amount of skill points that Rogues acquire really seems to be their one redeeming feature, aside from Sneak Attacks, and I didn't really want to do Sneak Attacks anyway (I was fine with it, as I was a Rogue, but I just don't really see a duelist sneaking around someone to stab them in the back, rather than just fighting them in a test of mettle). But, I also don't really NEED all those skill ranks. I'll get a fine amount going with fighter/duelist and a decent amount of Int.
What you said about the fighter/duelist path sounds exactly like what I would want, and I could totally justify it with what I have in mind for the character with regards to roleplaying. The thing is (and this is a very disappointing discovery, I have to say), I don't want to be playing another class as a Rogue, only I'd be doing it better than as the actual Rogue. It's ridiculous. If I wanted to play a Rogue, shouldn't I be able to do it as a Rogue? The knowledge that I can get better damage and all the skill points I could ever want, accomplish everything a Rogue can, but better, with a different class, the knowledge that what I intended to be is, for all intents and purposes, completely superfluous, is pissing me off. And maybe I didn't actually want to be a Rogue, I just thought that it would be the best way to get the type of character I wanted. I wanted to be the guy who gets people out of a jam, and I guess I'll be doing that as a fighter.
Cad or Free Hand Fighter archetypes for the fighter works well with duelist. Cad gets some extra in class skills, but I think Free Hand Fighter has a better progression out to 6.
EDIT: Lore warden gets extra skill points and a bonus to CMB and CMD.
Cad or Free Hand Fighter archetypes for the fighter works well with duelist. Cad gets some extra in class skills, but I think Free Hand Fighter has a better progression out to 6.
Yeah, I was thinking Free Hand as well. Looks exactly like what I want. I have a question, though. If I'm just doing Fighter up until 6, and then I do Duelist for 10 levels (and the campaign may end well before this, I don't know), what about the remaining 4? Should I resume Fighter after that, or should I go straight to 10 Fighter and then start Duelist? I don't really want to take levels in more than these two.
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You should look at the abilities gained at each level, and decide when the time is right to transition to Duelist. If you do manage to get to lvl 16, go back to fighter, no question about it. You just continue where you left off on your fighter progression, so you'll be able to get up to your lvl 10 fighter abilities.
Cad or Free Hand Fighter archetypes for the fighter works well with duelist. Cad gets some extra in class skills, but I think Free Hand Fighter has a better progression out to 6.Yeah, I was thinking Free Hand as well. Looks exactly like what I want. I have a question, though. If I'm just doing Fighter up until 6, and then I do Duelist for 10 levels (and the campaign may end well before this, I don't know), what about the remaining 4? Should I resume Fighter after that, or should I go straight to 10 Fighter and then start Duelist? I don't really want to take levels in more than these two.
Go for duelist as soon as you can. Finishing off with fighter is not a bad idea.
While you doing your character build, just keep repeating to yourself:
"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
and
"I lied. I am not left-handed."
Also, an ocassional "All for one and one for all!" might help.
Be inspired.
Words to live by. All right, I think I know what I'm doing now. Thanks for all your suggestions, even if I didn't really take them into account, it's still appreciated. I didn't expect Rogues to make people so touchy, so my apologies for causing some arguments. Maybe I'll give Rogues another shot in a setting that would be friendlier to someone with a ton of skills and where fighting would be comparatively less prevalent than in a dungeon. In particular I want to give the Driver archetype a shot. Getaway man for a group of ne'er-do-wells, pulling off heists with derring-do? Yes please.
A good rogue fencer is often done with a feint build. That will mean building up Bluff. Feint (w/ Improved Feint) means getting off lots of sneak attack damage--plus flavor wise is perfectly suited to rapier master type.
Dip as needed into fighter (maybe with mobile fighter or free hand fighter archetype, or weapons master) or duelist, if desired.
Enjoy and have fun.
A good rogue fencer is often done with a feint build. That will mean building up Bluff. Feint (w/ Improved Feint) means getting off lots of sneak attack damage--plus flavor wise is perfectly suited to rapier master type.
Dip as needed into fighter (maybe with mobile fighter or free hand fighter archetype, or weapons master) or duelist, if desired.
Enjoy and have fun.
I dunno, I don't like dipping into classes. Tends to hose over the base class, so I prefer to wait and grab whatever when I can. Most games aren't lethal enough to wipe out a well constructed and played character just because they don't have a handful of feats that they are working on getting.
I dunno, I don't like dipping into classes. Tends to hose over the base class, so I prefer to wait and grab whatever when I can. Most games aren't lethal enough to wipe out a well constructed and played character just because they don't have a handful of feats that they are working on getting.A good rogue fencer is often done with a feint build. That will mean building up Bluff. Feint (w/ Improved Feint) means getting off lots of sneak attack damage--plus flavor wise is perfectly suited to rapier master type.
Dip as needed into fighter (maybe with mobile fighter or free hand fighter archetype, or weapons master) or duelist, if desired.
Enjoy and have fun.
I said "if desired." You can do it fine single class. If you're human you can grab both Combat Expertise and Improved Feint at first level, otherwise take Combat Expertise at first and take Combat Trick as your rogue talent at 2nd level to take Improved Feint.
I said "if desired." You can do it fine single class. If you're human you can grab both Combat Expertise and Improved Feint at first level, otherwise take Combat Expertise at first and take Combat Trick as your rogue talent at 2nd level to take Improved Feint.I dunno, I don't like dipping into classes. Tends to hose over the base class, so I prefer to wait and grab whatever when I can. Most games aren't lethal enough to wipe out a well constructed and played character just because they don't have a handful of feats that they are working on getting.A good rogue fencer is often done with a feint build. That will mean building up Bluff. Feint (w/ Improved Feint) means getting off lots of sneak attack damage--plus flavor wise is perfectly suited to rapier master type.
Dip as needed into fighter (maybe with mobile fighter or free hand fighter archetype, or weapons master) or duelist, if desired.
Enjoy and have fun.
I reserved Combat Trick for Outflank (bonus to hit is nice), and the 2nd level rogue trick for Finesse Rogue. The goal is to get really good at flanking, and then branch out into feinting (PC's Cha sucks). Therefore, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, and Outflank, Precise Strike if I can talk the Fighter into it. After that, Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, that is if the saving throws don't need amping.
Outflank is a team work feat and will not do anything unless the person you are flanking with also has that feat. You will never convince my fighter to take meh feats that won't work without you.
I like the Rogue + Bow build.
Ex.: Human rogue LV 10
Str 20 (16 + 4belt) Dex 20 (18 + 2 lvl)
Main feats:
- Composie Long Bow Proficience
- Deadly aim
- Rapid Shot
Items: Boots of Speed, Sniper Goggles.
Outflank is a team work feat and will not do anything unless the person you are flanking with also has that feat. You will never convince my fighter to take meh feats that won't work without you.
How very Neutral of you. They pay off in home games.