Oh yes, I don't like monetary fixes either - I've run a monk in a restricted game that way, and it nerfed the hell out of them. More than any other character class the monk depends on expensive items, and that's not a good thing. That's why I wanted to do away with the AoMF dependence, but keep it as desirable.
My take on the MAD situation, is that currently a monk needs:
Strength - high as hitting stat & for damage
Dexterity - high as hitting stat & for AC
Wisdom - high for monk abilities & for AC
Three highs. Very MAD.
If you make the monk Dex-focused:
Strength - not essential, but needed for carrying stuff.
Dexterity - high to hit and damage & for AC
Wisdom - high for monk abilities & for AC
Two highs. Quite MAD.
If you make the monk Wis-focused:
Strength - moderate, needed for damage.
Dexterity - moderate, needed for AC.
Wisdom - high for monk abilities, hitting, & for AC.
One high, two moderate (and two moderates is easier to get than a high). A little MAD, but no more than anyone else.
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That's the exact route I took Dabbler. I went with the Dex/Wisdom with a 20 point buy as a Vanaras. I ended up with 12 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 18 wis, and 5 cha after racial ability changes.
I'm doing pretty fantastic, although my damage is laughable. I can do maybe 27 damage in one turn using a ki point if I'm super lucky. Crit for 54 tops if I'm even luckier.
Of course I plan on going Druid at some point... so eventually my STR will outweigh my Dex for both hitting and damage. I'm basically making an awkward switch hitter. Dex based in Normal form. STR based in Wildshape. I almost feel like I'm putting all that Dex, and Weapon Finesse to waste. It'll help me avoid putting Agile on my AoMF though. This way I can go with a full +5 or maybe put a different effect on it.
Anyways, I like what you're doing! Keep it coming.
I definitely understand where you're coming from for the different attribute builds for Monks. MAD indeed. It's painful.
two moderates easier to get then a high.
i have to admit that flies in the face of my conventional knowledge. but ok :P
Actually, it IS conventional knowledge:
Point buy cost of a 14 = 5
Point buy cost of a 16 = 10
Point buy cost of an 18 = 17
So +4 in total mods costs 10 points with moderate scores or 17 points if you need it in one score. Hell, a 16 and a 14 still cost less than an 18. Point buy actually favours MAD when the MAD does not require more than one maxed-out score. This is how just about every other class works, hinging on just one high score; some you can even make work with just moderate scores as long as you are not fussed about functioning well in combat.
that explains it, and its a houserule problem, our group never does point buy, we enjoy the random roll.
Point buy is the standard for Pathfinder, it's what is used for PFS and for play-testing, so it's hardly a 'houserule' - and even with dice-rolling, you are more likely to get one very good roll and a couple of moderately good ones than you are two or three very good rolls.
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That's OK! My point here remains that requiring only one very good score (and a couple of moderately good ones) puts the monk on a par with other classes; needing two is still too much IMHO.
would putting in the clause that if you wear any armor/shield you lose your WIS to hit/damage be plausible to not make the monk too good of a level dip? while simultaneous allow monks to use WIS to damage?
wildshaping druidzilla....
I guess it depends on your priorities. you say itd make 2 very good stats...i dont argue that, but i fail to see how it would be better off with keeping STR to damage.
you still have same number of points, and are forced to spread them more for less gain. at least my way you give a player a choice to focus on wisdom or dexterity. making the other one the secondary, you still would as far as i can tell, be at a gain.
Well if you are using Wis-to-hit and Dex-to-damage, I guess you don't HAVE to max out Dex, just as in Wis-to-hit (alone) you don't have to max out strength. On the other hand, I can see monk becoming a dip for every dex-based combatant just to get that dex-to-damage to combine with Weapon Finesse.
My concern is that wis-to-hit/dex-to-damage basically undermines every strength-based monk build out there, and that's currently how many monks have to be made. Wis-to-hit alone doesn't undermine them, because there's no wis-to-damage option to bypass the usefulness of strength. It just opens up other possibilities when making a monk.
Incredibly interested in your developments, Dabbler! I've always liked Monk but felt like it needed too much. My groups in the past say that they HATE point-buy, so I've learned and have grown with just rolling, which they've even modified so we usually roll higher. It lets monks shine for us, but also really shows its limits once it's taken away.
I'd love to, next campaign, take on your monk's changes for my next character (playing a Vitalist [life leech]/[sadist] for a new campaign tonight) and see how it does! =D
Thank you, I'm glad people are liking the ideas and this is stimulating discussion.
Tonight we had the last session for a while, and once more the monk provided a little extra in one combat that developed: entering a room the party were attacked by a very powerful flesh golem; this was not a good thing as it popped up threatening the party rogue (a character whose dangerous pursuits have persuaded Pharasma to install a revolving door for his many brushes with her realm).
The monk tumbled past the golem and put an attack into it's back, getting it's attention away from the rogue. While the latter character isn't much less tough than the monk, the monk has the better AC and HP, and can use Snake Style to try and avoid dangerous attacks as well. His DR-bypass ability meant he did enough damage to get the monster's attention and it went for him instead of the squishiest character. His AC stopped two of four attacks (by a miracle, it hit him on a 6 or better), his Snake Style another one preventing a rend.
Then the party fighter steamed in and got a crit with his first hit, inflicting over fifty damage, then hit a second time reducing the golem's HP to single digits. The rogue got in the third hit on his turn and managed to kill it. A very fast and brutal fight.
While the monk's single hit did not do damage on the scale of the fighter's, it did enough that the monster attacked not the nearest target (rogue) or the biggest (fighter) but the most annoying (monk). Without wis-to-hit he would have missed, without DR-bypass he could have done no damage at all.
I'm looking at improving the monk's abilities in combat without upsetting the major roles of the existing combat classes, while at the same time improving the monk's existing stated role. Is providing a distraction (and flanking bonus) enough? In this case it was, but then the combat never got further than round one, so the monk never got a full attack while the party fighter did. If the monk had full-attacked he could have done fairly significant damage due to ignoring the DR of the golem, although not on the fighter's scale. Moreover, the golem could not be stunned - had the monk packed in a stunning fist attempt, he could have done a lot more.
I'm not looking for the monk to out-damage the fighter (and that's good, because in this case he emphatically isn't), but I am looking for him to be able to hit more consistently and deal consistent damage (that is, to be able to hit and be confident of doing something as opposed to nothing). The changes I have made allow the monk to gain automatic enhancement on their unarmed strike, bypass up to their level in DR or Hardness with it (earlier in the session the fighter stepped aside to let the monk smash a door down with the words "he's better at it"), and move up to twenty feet a round and still full-attack. That's fairly significant, and from what I have measured on my other tests gives the monk more scope.
Are they enough? How much is enough and how much is too much? Monks are really good defensively, the problem is that their offence can easily become insignificant. They do not need a quantum leap in offensive power to resolve this, but they do need something to improve to function outside of corner cases.
To answer your initial question, yes the monk is a worthwhile member of the group. The other party members automatically shuffle him forward next to the fighter to face threats. They know the fighter is the "big hitter" but the monk gets hit less and has better saves. The monk gets into positions that let the rogue flank. He's a worthwhile member of the team, in short. He won't replace the fighter, but everyone ranks him as being his equal in contributions.
At the beginning of this trhead I outlined the changes I am making and testing:
The changes I am making are:
1) Zen Warrior: A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk’s unarmed strike.2) A monk’s unarmed strike treats the hardness or damage resistance (of any type) of a target as less by one point for every level of monk the character possesses.
3a) Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as from the spell magic fang. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus.3b) By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack a round at his highest attack bonus.
3c) In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
In addition I am making the monk proficient with all "monk" weapons.
This is the package of tweaks I am working on and testing.
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Dabbler,
do you plan to alter Wholeness of Body?
if so, would you consider all ki for full HP?
doing so, divorced from a stat, would help monks of all stat arrays (esp. CON!), with reduced bookkeeping to boot.
bringing this back as i think so far its some of the most reasonable and sensible monk changes around on these boards, and want to keep it up for both further discussion, and to possibly bring up to my table when we start doing non gestalt campaigns.
I'm honoured, Wolfie.
ive been really busting my head to figure reasonable monk changes to make them more effective without redesigning the class or being too cheesy. lots of my ideas reflect ideas in this thread, as similar or the same entirely.
i do think a way to make wis or dex to damage should be done, and a way to make it ill effective when multiclassing, a monk provides much benefit already as a dip, and if additions to balance the monk would make the dip too good, adjustments have to be made to ensure that doesnt happen.
I don't see the need given all my changes, as I have said before. But let me explain my reasoning:
1) Wis to hit/Dex to damage makes all the strength-focussed monk builds out there severely sub-optimal, and that's an issue.2) You are getting a static damage boost from the enhancement, and you can combine it with properties in an AoMF. We do not want the monk to be too strong, just strong enough.
To test this I took the changes to my 14th level monk that I ran through Curse of the Crimson Throne last year. She was a dex-focussed monk with an agile amulet, and she struggled compared to the paladin and the magus to both hit things and damage them. I then reorginzed her stats to make her wisdom-focussed, and reorganised her equipment appropriate to those stats and changes.
Originally she hit for +22/+22/+17/+17/+12 and did 2d8+10 damage. She struggled to get past DR, and was lacklustre.
With the changes in stats and equipment she hit for +24/+24/+19/+19/+14 for 2d8+8+2d6 vs evil, and had better AC. The better accuracy more than offsets the loss in static damage bonus, and this attack will get through a great deal of DR.
The changes meant that while static bonuses were less on damage, hitting was improved and the amulet was free to hold properties (in this case holy) rather than enhancing the attack. That made it cheaper, so she could afford better defensive gear. Overall DPR was less than the party paladin, but she had a better AC.
the ki strike option just makes sense honestly that dabbler imposed. its both easier to understand as you dont have to look up every single DR weakness for hte player, you simply have to know what level you are! for a class that already demands high system mastery this is a boon
That was my intention, thanks! I'm glad it's working.
Im honestly torn on the amendment to the ki pool entry, its nice, and tidy, but feels like almost too much, rather, why not let a monk treat the enhancement level bonus of your gloves as a effective + to hit and damage as a magical weapon. so those gloves that are equivalent to a +5 enhancement work as a actual +5 magical enhancemetn for the monk. This would keep equipment relative for monks, not making them too non reliant on it. and it would be cheaper then amulet of might fists, realistically it could negate it almost entirely. this may or may not be a good...
Paizo have already indicated that gloves do not work that way...so I wouldn't try persuading them. Remember that any new equipment that works for a monk also works for other creatures and classes...
the amendment to ki and the extra attack working on all attacks not just flurry, this honestly should be how it is, i think the only reason it isnt is because core was done before archetypes were brought in that dropped flurry.
Yes, and it's hardly broken for the monk to move and hit twice at 3/4 BAB.
the 20 foot swift movement is BEAUTIFUL as it finally marries flurry of blows with monks high mobility to create a real skirmisher. this should imo also be standard.
The added beauty is it doesn't make the monk invincible in the charge, because the distance is limited. It makes them great for dashing from foe-to-foe such as they might do if they trying to assist the rest of the party - just as the fluff-text says.
and of course, access to all monk weapons, and using them in a flurry, not having that is just insulting to monks.
I always thought so, it's not like any of those weapons were even worth a feat to use them.
i can honestly think of very little to add, this is a wonderfully realized set of changes that dont push things too far. could allow the monk to really come into his own.
Thank you, I'm really appreciating this. So is my ego, but what the hell.
id also say all style feats are allowed to be selected thru monk bonus feats, allowing a monk to adopt a fighting style without the need of MoMS or using up your standard feats.
I'd allow style feats WITH prerequisites, myself, but I don't see that as an essential change. I want to go far enough, and no further.
Dabbler,
do you plan to alter Wholeness of Body?if so, would you consider all ki for full HP?
doing so, divorced from a stat, would help monks of all stat arrays (esp. CON!), with reduced bookkeeping to boot.
If I was rewriting the entire class I'd do a lot with Wholeness of Body, but I'm not. If you don't want it, the Qingong is the de facto rewrite of the monk that will work for you and I am happy with that myself. Here I'm just focussing on the tweaks that are not addressed in any archetype, and that the core monk needs to adequately function.
The issue is some str builds are actually intentional, a true Tony Jaa build favors that concept.
Exactly. My changes leave strength builds as viable to maximise damage at the expense of mystical abilities and AC, and there is argument that with the ki-strike enhancement they work better with my changes. Good enough that blowing the points on strength was actually worth it, anyway.
Also, again, there are many existing strength built monks out there. Invalidating them is destroying backward compatibility, and that's a bad thing. We want the changes to fit in seamlessly, not make huge waves.
One campaign went on hold as the groups reshuffled in our club, but I am running Kingmaker for another group and one of my players, on hearing my changes, declared they wanted to run a Drunken Monk...so I have the opportunity for more testing, using a different build and archetype!
Leessin Lodovka
Female Undine Monk (Drunken Master) 1
LN Medium Outsider (aquatic, native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +6
Resist cold 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., swimming (30 feet)
Melee Dagger +4 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
. . Sai +4 (1d4/x2) and
. . Temple sword +4 (1d8/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +4 (1d6/x2)
Ranged Underwater light crossbow +3 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows -1/-1
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Deflect Arrows, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 14)
Traits Child of the Temple (Knowledge [nobility]), Noble Born - Lodovka
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +4, Perception +8, Profession (brewer) +8, Swim +13
Languages Aquan, Common
SQ ac bonus +4, amphibious, hydrated vitality (2 hp/day), stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d6)
Other Gear Crossbow bolts (20), Dagger, Sai, Temple sword, Underwater light crossbow, Applejack (per gallon), Backpack (9 @ 18.56 lbs), Bedroll, Canteen, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Silk rope, Trail rations (3), 28 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Applejack (per gallon) - 0/1
Crossbow bolts - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Hydrated Vitality (2 HP/day) - 0/2
Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 14) - 0/1
Trail rations - 0/3
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +4 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Amphibious (Ex) You can survive indefinitely on land.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Hydrated Vitality (2 HP/day) Gain fast healing 2 when submerged completely in natural, flowing, water.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 14) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Swimming (30 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
--------------------
Zen Warrior: A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk’s unarmed strike.
Currently, +4 modifier to hit.
A monk’s unarmed strike treats the hardness or damage resistance (of any type) of a target as less by one point for every level of monk the character possesses.
Currently, reduce DR by 1
Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as the spell greater magic fang. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack a round at his highest attack bonus.
In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
The monk is proficient with all weapons of the type "monk".
The build is strength-light, wisdom & dexterity heavy. Almost what I would have gone for in a Finesse monk build, save that no feats are being expended on Weapon Finesse etc. Thus far, this monk has done well out of his AC which has kept him from serious harm in the initial run-ins with bandits. Damage has not been so hot, but at least he's hitting!
Other party members in Game #2:
Human barbarian - with Power Attack and rage he dishes 2d6+12 damage at level 1.
Aasimar Sorcerer - candidate to be ruler, a little weak on the ground.
Dwarf Cleric - of Torag, does a good Brian Blessed impersonation.
Halfling Rogue - smartest and sneakiest character in the party.
Human Ranger - ranged death, but otherwise a little inept.
Second session in Game #2, more skirmishes with bandits and the like. The monk works reasonably well, he's hitting a lot but not inflicting massive damage. The barbarian strikes less often, but what he hits generally dies. So far, the monk is working well at playing 2nd fiddle.
Third session, Game #2:
The party continue exploring, and had a series of planned and random encounters. Two of these took place at night, when their camp was attacked - ironically, both when the monk was on watch. Perception for the win, he spotted both the mites trying to steal the party's kitty (and preparing to coup-de-grace the dwarf cleric), and the worgs prowling around the camp, and raised the alarm both times. Not only was he able to raise the alarm, but he also chased down and caught the mite with the loot. He nearly got gutted by the worgs, but the rest of the party steamed in on them and collective bacon was saved.
Definitely the maxed wisdom score is paying for itself in skills as well as combat. The barbarian is still the big hitter, the rogue and ranger are still better scouts, but the monk is pulling his weight nicely.
Fourth Session, Game #2:
Level up to 2nd level, monk takes Improved Grapple (this is using Wis modifier on CMB instead of strength or dexterity).
The party had two run-ins with a bear and an owlbear. The monk got the killing blow on the owlbear on a flurry with his temple sword, but in both cases the beast-totem barbarian was definitely the major damage dealer.
Out of combat, the rogue and ranger are performing most of the scouting, although the ranger is hampered by his player's inability to roll dice. I mean seriously, this guy has cursed dice...
Effect of the changes so far is minimal, which is pretty much what I'd want as at low-level the monk generally performs reasonably well.
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I'm about to start a new AP, and the only melee members of the party are a monk and a rogue.
Ouch.
I'm highly considering some of these changes to help the party out. Definitely the WIS for attacks. Contemplating allowing it a full BAB as well... But I don't want the rogue to feel left out, so I think I'll just leave it at the WIS boost.
It'll be a big help, from what I have seen, and I'd recommend the other changes too. The original party had just a monk and rogue initially, and it worked by the casters buffing the monk like crazy. Which AP are you starting?
That's very combat-light with no full-BAB classes (unless the druid is going for combat-druid)...you might want to consider all of the changes I outline in the first post here (save that I amended the enhancement bonus to being a full bonus to hit and damage, and made it equivalent to a magic fang effect).
Third session: The monk's accuracy and DR bypass came in VERY handy in a scrap with a small hoard of mites. The little terrors got the party surrounded, and the monk was very effective in holding the rear with the party rogue while the barbarian, cleric, and ranger minced stuff ahead of the party. While the rogue was able to defend against the mites, the monk hurt them very effectively. It wasn't much but was just enough to swing a fight he would have struggled with into one he did well in.
So far I'm liking this, it feels like I have the balance just right on improving the monk vs having an overpowered monk.
Well I haven't play tested very high level, I've only run a few simulations with existing characters, but overall I think I've got it about right so far with the changes I've made. I'm going to keep play-testing and updating, though, just in case there's something I haven't thought of.
Latest session report:
The last session went well. The party did some more exploring, and once more got into some combat encounters. Some giant frogs caused some issues, attacking from stealth under water. Our monk, being an undine, jumped straight in and stunned one. His low damage output meant he was the last to score a kill, though. Frogs' legs were on the menu that evening.
A second encounter with a dire boar proved much more troublesome: the boar attacked the party from the rear, and gored the dwarf cleric to negatives in one hit. Thankfully the party sorcerer hit it with a color spray and stunned it for one round. The monk tried to leap on it's back....and failed, landing in front of an irate boar. However, before it could recover from stun and attack again, it fell to the barbarian's greatsword and the ranger's arrows.
Their third encounter was once again with bandits. This time a dozen hirelings were targeting the party specifically, led by an elf ranger. While their leader stood back, the human bandits snuck up on the party camp in early evening.
Well, they tried.
The ranger (then on watch) heard them coming and surreptitiously woke everyone. As they were camped by a river, the monk sneaked into the water and let the bandits go by so that she could get around them. They saw they were rumbled when the barbarian was woken up (well you would) and attacked.
Now one tactic that has been proposed monks should do is to get around mooks and tie down enemy leaders - however, it usually falls over as many leaders are not squishy and instead beat the monk to a pulp. As the party started taking hits from the elf ranger with his bow, the monk tried this, and in this case it worked. The elf ranger was a dedicated ranged fighter, while the monk had Deflect Arrows. While his men died in droves, he found himself trying to five-foot step back from the monk, shooting, yet failing to land an arrow.
Plan unravelled as the party decimated the warriors and the ranger saw the better part of valour, then discovered that out-running a barbarian is not so easy.
At the end of that encounter the party had four more prisoners, and team levelled up nicely.
Female Undine Monk (Drunken Master) 3
LN Medium Outsider (aquatic, native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 18, flat-footed 16 (+1 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 21 (3d8+3)
Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft., swimming (30 feet)
Melee Dagger +6 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Temple sword +7 (1d8/19-20/x2) and
. . Sai +6 (1d4/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +6 (1d6/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Shuriken +7 (1d2/x2) and
. . Underwater light crossbow +5 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +1/+1
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +7 (+9 Grappling); CMD 20 (22 vs. Grapple)
Feats Deflect Arrows (1/day), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 15)
Traits Child of the Temple (Knowledge [nobility]), Noble Born - Lodovka
Skills Acrobatics +8 (+12 jump), Climb +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Perception +10, Perform (string instruments) +4, Profession (brewer) +8, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +7, Swim +13
Languages Aquan, Common
SQ ac bonus +4, amphibious, drunken ki, fast movement (+10'), hydrated vitality (6 hp/day), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d6)
Other Gear Crossbow bolts (20), Dagger, Masterwork Shuriken (25), Masterwork Temple sword, Sai, Underwater light crossbow, Bracers of armor +1, Ring of protection +1, Applejack (per gallon), Backpack (8 @ 13.56 lbs), Bedroll, Canteen, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Silk rope, Trail rations (3), 28 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Applejack (per gallon) - 0/1
Crossbow bolts - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Deflect Arrows (1/day) - 0/1
Drunken Ki (Su) - 0/1
Hydrated Vitality (6 HP/day) - 0/6
Ki Pool (Su) - 0/0
Masterwork Shuriken - 0/25
Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 15) - 0/3
Trail rations - 0/3
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +4 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Amphibious (Ex) You can survive indefinitely on land.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deflect Arrows (1/day) While have an empty hand, negate one ranged weapon hit you are aware of (unless from a massive weapon).
Drunken Ki (Su) Drunken Ki pool allows the use of Ki powers.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +1/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Hydrated Vitality (6 HP/day) Gain fast healing 2 when submerged completely in natural, flowing, water.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 15) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Swimming (30 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes. A monk’s unarmed strike treats the hardness or damage resistance (of any type) of a target as less by one point for every level of monk the character possesses (currently 3)
Zen Warrior A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk’s unarmed strike.
Currently, +4 modifier to hit.
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Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as the spell greater magic fang. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack a round at his highest attack bonus.
In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
The monk is proficient with all weapons of the type "monk".
Due to recent debates on the mon at level 20, I decided to run up a tricked-out version of my own monk, with all the changes, to see how it would look at level 20.
Male Garuda-Blooded Aasimar (Plumekith) Monk (Qinggong Monk) 20
LG Medium Augmented Outsider (native)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +38
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Defense
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AC 56, touch 43, flat-footed 47 (+8 armor, +8 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 183 (20d8+80)
Fort +20, Ref +24, Will +29; +2 vs. [evil], +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, +4 to avoid being knocked prone
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; DR 10/chaotic; Immune disease, poison; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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Offense
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Speed 90 ft., flight (30 feet, average)
Melee +3 Keen Temple sword +31/+26/+21 (FoB +34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19) (1d8+9+1d6 acid/17-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +28/+23/+18 (1d4+6/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +34/+29/+24 (FoB +37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22)(2d10+11+2d6 vs. Evil +1d6 electricity +1d6 acid/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Light crossbow +24/+19/+14 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Shuriken +28/+23/+18 (FoB +31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16) (1d2+6/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3, unarmed strike ignores first 20 points of DR or Hardness.
Spell-Like Abilities
. . —Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki)
. . —Battlemind Link (4 Ki)
. . —Ki Shout (3 Ki)
. . —Restoration (self only, 2 Ki)
. . —True Strike (self only, 1 Ki)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 26, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 36, Cha 14
Base Atk +15; CMB +33 (+35 Disarming, +35 Grappling, +35 Tripping); CMD 64 (66 vs. Disarm, 68 vs. Grapple, 66 vs. Reposition, 72 vs. Trip)
Feats Angel Wings, Angelic Blood, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Deflect Arrows (1/day), Dimensional Agility, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Stand, Ki Throw, Snake Fang, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (21/day) (DC 33), Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Reactionary, Snake Hater
Skills Acrobatics +33 (+37 to avoid being knocked prone, +57 jump), Climb +22, Escape Artist +31, Fly +34, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (planes) +23, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +38, Sense Motive +38, Stealth +26, Survival +14 (+16 to avoid becoming lost when using a Mapmaker's Kit as you travel), Swim +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Fly
Languages Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Vudrani
SQ ac bonus +18, fast movement (+60'), ghost touch, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken, stagger, bli, unarmed strike (2d10)
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves, Potion of cure moderate wounds (2), Potion of cure serious wounds (4), Potion of fly (2), Potion of invisibility (2), Potion of restoration, lesser (2), Quick runner's shirt (1/day); Other Gear +1 Light crossbow, +3 Keen Temple sword, Crossbow bolts (20), Dagger, Shuriken (10), Belt of physical perfection +6, Bracers of armor +8, Cloak of resistance +4, Eyes of keen sight, Handy haversack (24 @ 46.5 lbs), Headband of mental superiority +6 (Escape Artist, , Holy Amulet, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Manual of gainful exercise +2, Manual of quickness of action +4, Monk's robe, Ring of ki mastery (2 at a time), Ring of protection +5, Tome of understanding +5, Bedroll, Belt pouch (empty), Candle (3), Everburning torch, Grappling hook, Hammer, Mapmaker's kit, Piton (10), Silk rope, Trail rations (3), 954 PP, 5 GP, 7 SP, 9 CP
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Crossbow bolts - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Deflect Arrows (1/day) - 0/1
Ki Pool (Su) - 0/23
Potion of cure moderate wounds - 0/2
Potion of cure serious wounds - 0/4
Potion of fly - 0/2
Potion of invisibility - 0/2
Potion of restoration, lesser - 0/2
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) - 0/1
Ring of ki mastery (2 at a time) - 0/2
Shuriken - 0/10
Stunning Fist (21/day) (DC 33) - 0/21
Trail rations - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) Costs 2 ki points to activate. A monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his mon
AC Bonus +18 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Battlemind Link (4 Ki) (Sp) Costs 4 ki points to activate.
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (10/chaotic) You have Damage Reduction against all except Chaotic attacks.
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deflect Arrows (1/day) While have an empty hand, negate one ranged weapon hit you are aware of (unless from a massive weapon).
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Dimensional Agility May take any additional actions remaining after using dimension door or abundant step
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Eyes of keen sight Gain lowlight vision, or double the distance you can see if you already have it.
Fast Movement (+60') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flight (30 feet, Average) You can fly!
Flurry of Blows +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Ghost touch Full damage against incorporeal creatures.
High Jump (+20) +20 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Improved Vital Strike Costs 2 ki points to activate. When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack three times and add the results together.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Shout (3 Ki) (Sp) Costs 3 ki points to activate.
Ki Stand Stand up as a swift action, and spend 1 ki point to not provoke attacks of opportunity when you do so
Ki Strike Unarmed strikes are enhanced to +5 to hit and damage, as by the spell greater magic fang.
Ki Throw Trips can put the target in any square you threaten.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Mapmaker's kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Perfect Self The monk becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/chaotic
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Restoration (self only, 2 Ki) (Sp) Self only. Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Ring of ki mastery (2 at a time) Store up to 2 ki as swift action, if 1 then +2 to some CMDs, if 2 then reduce ki costs by 1 (min 1).
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (21/day) (DC 33) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger, Blind, Deafen, Paralyze) (Ex)
Timeless Body (Su) Costs 0 ki point to activate. The monk no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged.
True Strike (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Unarmed Strike (2d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes. His unarmed strike ignores the first 20 points of hardness or DR the target has.
Zen Warrior the monk may use their wisdom bonus to hit rather than their strength or dexterity bonus, when employing monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
One thing I haven't put into this are buffs or tricks like juggernaut's paldrons...mainly because at this level debuffs get thrown around a lot...
Last Thursday's session:
With the monk now able to imbibe alcohol for some ki, he went through a couple of encounters blowing ki and drinking heavily. In one he used Acrobatics to get flanking with the barbarian on an owl-bear, very effectively. He shone in an undead-encounter with skeletons and a wight, charging into a small horde of skeletons (eight) and smashing five of them to bits in four rounds. The barbarian and ranger took out three, arriving late to the fun. The cleric took out a second horde all on his ownsome, in two rounds, with two channels. You win some, you lose some.
For the most part, he's still contributing nicely. The party have levelled again when I corrected for an error I'd made in the xp, so now he's up to 4th level and has gained his new ki-powers in full. I'm looking forward to seeing how these play out!
For those wanting his latest stats:
Female Undine Monk (Drunken Master) 4
LN Medium Outsider (aquatic, native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 19, flat-footed 17 (+1 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 31 (4d8+8)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +8
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 5
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft., swimming (30 feet)
Melee Dagger +7 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Temple sword +8 (1d8/19-20/x2) and
. . Sai +7 (1d4/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +8 (1d8+1/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Shuriken +8 (1d2/x2) and
. . Underwater light crossbow +6 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +2/+2
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +8 (+10 Grappling); CMD 22 (24 vs. Grapple)
Feats Deflect Arrows (1/day), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 16)
Traits Child of the Temple (Knowledge [nobility]), Noble Born - Lodovka
Skills Acrobatics +10 (+14 jump), Climb +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +11, Perform (string instruments) +4, Profession (brewer) +8, Sense Motive +13, Stealth +7, Swim +13
Languages Aquan, Common
SQ ac bonus +5, amphibious, drunken ki, fast movement (+10'), hydrated vitality (8 hp/day), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, slow fall 20', stunning fist (stun, fatigue), unarmed strike (1d8)
Other Gear Crossbow bolts (20), Dagger, Masterwork Shuriken (25), Masterwork Temple sword, Sai, Underwater light crossbow, Bracers of armor +1, Ring of protection +1, Applejack (per gallon), Backpack (8 @ 13.56 lbs), Bedroll, Canteen, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Silk rope, Trail rations (3), 28 GP
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Applejack (per gallon) - 0/1
Crossbow bolts - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
Deflect Arrows (1/day) - 0/1
Drunken Ki (Su) - 0/2
Hydrated Vitality (8 HP/day) - 0/8
Ki Pool (Su) - 0/6
Masterwork Shuriken - 0/25
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 16) - 0/4
Trail rations - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Amphibious (Ex) You can survive indefinitely on land.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deflect Arrows (1/day) While have an empty hand, negate one ranged weapon hit you are aware of (unless from a massive weapon).
Drunken Ki (Su) Drunken Ki pool allows the use of Ki powers.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +2/+2 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Hydrated Vitality (8 HP/day) Gain fast healing 2 when submerged completely in natural, flowing, water.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike +1 enhancement to hit and damage
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Slow Fall 20' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Swimming (30 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes. A monk’s unarmed strike treats the hardness or damage resistance (of any type) of a target as less by one point for every level of monk the character possesses. Currently, reduce DR by 4
Zen Warrior the monk may use their wisdom bonus to hit rather than their strength or dexterity bonus, when employing monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
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Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as the spell greater magic fang. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack a round at his highest attack bonus.
In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
The monk is proficient with all weapons of the type "monk".
Tonight's session - quite fun. Spoilers below for Kingmaker:
The game was up when the pre-arranged signal (the cleric casting Bless) was picked up by one observant bandit (Topper Red, see below), who shouted a warning. General mayhem ensued. Because the party were 4th level now and there were six of them I had beefed up the bandits and lieutenants to better reflect an elite - all bandits were 2nd level PC classes, the lieutenants were 4th level. Nonetheless the barbarian cleaved his way through their ranks leaving a bloody wake during this fight, as he usually does.
Doven (rogue 4) was stunned and beaten pretty badly by the monk on the first round before he could even think about releasing the owlbear, and the ranger Ilyana finished him with two shots. Fat Nori (ranger 2) put his back to the owlbear cage and started loosing arrows. Dirty Jeb (rogue 2) then used a dirty trick to blind the ranger, then the sorcerer Ygdrysil color sprayed him out of the fight. Cragor (dwarf, fighter 2) came a cropper to the Barbarian's first stroke, while the rogue John secured the controls to the cage door - and opened it behind Fat Nori. Bandits came running in from far and wide, mainly around the ranger who was feeling rather exposed.
The owlbear was slow to move, but Fat Nori was suddenly amazingly fast, running past barbarian, monk, and cleric with all AoO's missing him (if he survived he would have been Lucky Nori, but it was not to be). So John the rogue closed the cage door again, just before the owlbear got out. In the meantime, ranger Ilyana and sorcerer Ygdrysil were beset by Felgrim Sneeg (fighter 2), Ayles (rogue 2), Auchs (fighter 4), Topper Red (bard 2), and Jex (rogue 2), and things were not looking good even as Akiros (ex-paladin 2/fighter 2) waded in to help them out and chopped up Ayles. The barbarian charged in to the rescue to take on Auchs with the sorcerer buffing him with enlarge even as the monk ran the opposite way to engage Fat Nori before he could start filling everyone with arrows again. Fat Nori got stunned and beaten (two stuns in one fight!), even as the Stag Lord appeared on the scene behind him, drunk but angry.
The Stag Lord put a dead-shot arrow in the barbarian's back (22 damage), and Felgrim and Auchs had him about to fall on zero hit points before the cleric shored him up with a cure moderate wounds. He promptly cleaved both Felgrim and Auchs, and they basically became red mist. Only Leessin and the rogue John were facing the Stag Lord and Fat Nori, and the monk moved to engage Staggy closely so he couldn't use his bow again while the rogue sneak-attacked the stunned Nori and took him down.
The monk hit the Stag Lord, but didn't inflict significant damage. Thankfully the ranger got his eyes back, got out of the melee on the other side of the keep and drilled the Stag Lord with a critical hit from his own bow. The cleric summoned three eagles that mobbed the Stag Lord as well, and Leessin the monk finished him off.
The remaining bandits (Jex, Jeb, and Topper) folded at that point.
Overall, the big damage dealers were the ranger and the barbarian. The latter had three definite kills, while the ranger finished off a lot of foes others were fighting. The rogue got two 'partial' kills effectively mopping up, and maintained control of the cage so that the owlbear threatened the bandits and not the party. The sorcerer and cleric buffed, healed, and zapped as you would expect. The monk hit accurately, and worked to place herself to great effect to keep the pressure on the enemy's archers (it helped that thanks to their infiltration the party were inside the keep and distances were confined). While not scoring any solo kills, he stunned and wore down his targets and prevented them from threatening his team-mates -= he also got the killing blow on the Stag Lord. Wis-to-hit made his attacks accurate and stunning fist effective.
I'm pleased with this performance, it's made a character that would have been lacklustre into one that pulls their weight. The irony of the battle ending up as a clash of a drunken monk with the drunken Stag Lord was not lost on anyone...
Are you doing anything to combat bias in how you're seeing the fights play out?
Valid point. Well, I'm just trying to be as objective as I can, although obviously no-one is perfect. I trained as a scientist, so my general approach is to try and 'destruction test' things by seeing if I can 'break' them.
The first thing I did with my changes was to apply them to some builds and see if they took some existing monk builds and made them too good. They didn't, so far as I could see. Next I made some custom monks designed to get the best out of the changes, and looked at them to see if they were broken - again, I saw improvements, but not overly good.
Lastly I started the play-tests. I'm playing existing APs, Carrion Crown and Kingmaker, and in both I'm not modifying the stated tactics of the NPCs, or their nature, save to beef them up in strength or numbers as stated in order to keep appropriate to the size and power of the party. By posting up the character from the play-test I'm showing each step for you guys to see exactly how that character is working, if you like I could post up the whole party to give some context?
Dabbler, have you considered keeping track of all the roles the Monk player makes, and then comparing them to what his Monk would be like without the changes, and determine a success/failure percentage?
Probability formulas (like for DPR) are fine in theory, but in reality, most people are playing with warped dice that are inherently biased. Some people are also extraordinarily lucky. I have a friend that has a guaranteed (so far) 1 in 5 natural 20 chance. We've tested it extensively, with 13 different sets of dice, and he always rolls a 20 at least 1 out of 5 times.
The point is, keeping track of where the changes helped the Monk be better in reality (not theory), might give better insight into how the Monk compares to before. Sometimes the player would have only missed it by 1 or 2 points, but with the changes, he succeeds more often. It would be nice to see a comparison of these changes.
I would suggest asking the player to record every d20 roll he makes that is influenced by the changes, and then you could compare what the rolls would have been like without the changes and see the results. One could then, theoretically, try and guess how the fights would have turned out if the Monk had failed the rolls that only succeeded because of the changes.
Hi, Dabbler. That's a really interesting thread you've posted here. While reading the discussio, an idea has occurred me: it would be to radical if, instead of replacing, you could actually ADD the monk's Wis modifier to attack (and/or damage, maybe)? I'm not really sure what mechanics to use in here (limited to monk weapons, FoB and combat maneuvers, limited amount of rounds/turns/minutes per day, based on level, maybe, give it the same progression as the AC bonus of the Duelist PrC)... What do you say?
Hi, Dabbler. That's a really interesting thread you've posted here. While reading the discussio, an idea has occurred me: it would be to radical if, instead of replacing, you could actually ADD the monk's Wis modifier to attack (and/or damage, maybe)? I'm not really sure what mechanics to use in here (limited to monk weapons, FoB and combat maneuvers, limited amount of rounds/turns/minutes per day, based on level, maybe, give it the same progression as the AC bonus of the Duelist PrC)... What do you say?
I actually did that for my own Monk changes and am currently playing a Monk that has those changes active. Something to keep in mind with this, is that such a change shouldn't be viewed as a possible change for all players.
If you add Wisdom to your attack (but not damage) bonus, then what is to stop a player from boosting his strength and Wisdom as high as possible to get lots of attacks? Now, you know your own players, you know whether or not they will do this, but there are lots of other people in the world who will take advantage of this.
Even at first level, it can be a little overwhelming. An 18 Strength, 18 Wisdom Monk would have a +8 bonus just from his ability scores. At 1st level, most ACs for enemies are in the 13-14 range, so you have an almost guaranteed hit, just from ability scores.
Dabbler's changes are designed more around the idea of a playtest for future adaptation into Pathfinder. My changes (which includes Wisdom and Strength/Dexterity to hit) are not designed that way, they were designed with my group in mind because I can trust most of them not to power game. The ones that do power game, don't play monks :)
If I were to go that route, I would add half the value of wisdom to attack and damage. You end up roughly at the same spot as someone who focuses on strength that way. If you do focus on strength, you end up negating half of the flurry penalties at low levels and eliminating the penalties altogether by mid levels.
@Tels: thanks for your argument, mate. I went back in the thread and saw Dabbler's just made it clear quite in the beginning (and I didn't noticed the post, my bad...). So, i guess it would be a good idea to tie the Wis bonus to hit with the Wis bonus to AC, and then we have:
- Harmony of Body and Mind (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wis modifier (if any) to AC and CMD, and this bonus increases by 1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, up to a maximum increase of +5 at 20th level. Additionaly, when unarmored and unencumbered, a monk can apply 1 point of Wis bonus (if any) per monk class level on attack rolls made with unarmed strikes or monk weapons (including Flurry of Blows), instead of Str bonus.
Pretty iconic, it matches nicely with the concept of "hale mind in a hale body", i guess... :)