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this... was the worst of the dungeons.
CR on most of the critters was 3 or 4. No challenge for a group of six 5th-7th level characters.
many things not mentioned in the module are terrain/environmental impacts. which is weird, because they're just illusions anyway,but the DC should be given for the disbelieving, like when you bump your head into the ceiling. The dungeon features aren't even specified like the other levels ( floors made of such and such, ceilings usually so and so high, doors made of wood etc. ) so i had to make up some of the stuff.
the hidden treasure in each room is mostly ridiculous, and completely an after thought. just like the CR for most rooms does not seem appropriate for a level 6 party. its like the author thought a CR 4 snake and a CR 2 plant together made it a tough and memorable CR 5 fight. =P pee ewww.
I'd go give the product a poor rating, but I liked the other dungeon levels, and they had some challenging points.
*pugwumpies: i had to station the four gremlins around the room , with a take 20 on hiding, so most players would never see them. and ready to cast shatter on columns when PCs moved near them. the xigits (sp) were slightly visible when they moved around the room to use disable device to topple columns. It was the only moderately fun encounter, because i had the columns doing 3d6 reflex for half.
*atrium: had the jungle foliage provide 20% concealment and difficult terrain. i hate the hidden treasure. give the PCs a knowledge check to know that the kapok tree produces magical sap, otherwise who is going to think to tap it for some syrup.
*lighting & mud: if they go in from the connecting atrium, they start at the bottom of the ravine. and there's no chance for the elementals to bull rush them off the walkway. solution is there really is no reason for the adjoining tunnel.
*undersea: tactics listed is for the shark people to try to pull party members into the water. my group looked in the room. then cast water breathing outside. important things to consider in the room are water-to-surface combat penalties, water breaking line of effect for spells, huge cover bonus for attacking both ways. but really the shark people are NOT built for dragging people into the water. and the room itself is NOT big enough to have an anemone off in the corner.
*desert: four large scorpions in a room that's barely 25' x 30' ? really? REALLY? they opened the door and the following action was to close it, then buff and reposition the party so two archers and an alchemist could bomb the room.
*decapus. really? a decapus? i was sooo disapointed it didn't get 10 separate tentacle attacks. whats the point of a creature with 10 arms if you can't get multiple attacks!!!
*deathtrap. Really? its tactics are to wait on the block for someone to step on it? its not even a hidden trap. its detailed in the room description. who the frack is going to STEP ON IT!?. as the only CR appropriate encounter, I had it attack them when they were at their weakest, on its own: as they left the room, with the healer leaving last. An amusing, but short fight still.
*sphinx: the adamantium chains aren't detailed. is there meant to be a fight with a chained up sphinx? its the only other CR appropriate creature in the dungeon. And its chained to the floor , while every other creature is free to roam its environment. And the chains don't have locks, the party has to have some way to deal 20+ damage reliably to break the chains or teleport the sphinx out. its a roleplaying encounter, with no flair. When I ran it for PFS as a module, I made the focus of the game that the Decemverite would like some information the sphinx has, please rescue her. But really, the group would have to be evil to just pick a fight and kill a chained defenseless sphinx.
*gibbering mouther: only fun because i had it hide on the ceiling and attack by dropping down, gibbering to confuse one player, and blinding another. Its not even clear how the trap works, or how they'll fall off. its not like confusion will have you wander randomly in one direction. that'd be hilarious. i started to have the creature soften the catwalk so it would break apart, but they blasted it quickly. one CR 5 monster vs. 6 players was really no challenge.
all in all, i give this adventure one star. my least favorite of the dungeons. it should have been rated for character levels 3-5.
James jacobs adventure was first class..damn i wish he had more time to write more modules
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oh my god, cavalier decapus, that'd be hilarious.
shark men with man-catcher poles or polearms other than spears to drag people into the water would be fun too.
and sleeping scorpions hiding under the sand like trapdoor spiders might be more engaging. ( party walks in sees desert oasis, the whole party comes in, then sand sloughs off the scorpions as they rise from their stasis fields... )
having the sphinx be crazy because her stasis field didn't work properly, and she's been alone in her mind for hundreds of years, so she wants to fight, and has already wriggled her way free of the chains, and has to be subdued before she's brought to the decemverite may be entertaining.
have the foliage in the garden room hide the tunnel to the next room, so they encounter the bridge room while on the bridge, not on the floor. this lets the fun tactic of the lightning elemental bull rushing the full plate fighter off the bridge for a 40 ft fall into mud elementals more fun.
hidden pugwumpis was already the most fun room of the dungeon.
having the deathtrap ooze trap the area 10 ft. in front of the block trap, so that they get launched off a spring into the crushing block trap would be great too, very cartoony.
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Chris had an outstanding idea in another thread:
Here's a link
I've had difficulties with the Dark Menagerie: not that it's too easy or too hard, but that it's too mysterious.
The first time I ran this, the party just didn't know what to do, except stumble around, room-to-room, and break stuff. And then, no climax. A ten thousand year old sphinx. Fight it or free it.
I wanted a level that was a little happier, to come between the Visitant and the overpowering fights of level 5. A change-up in character.
So, this weekend, here's what I did:
When the party arrives in the fore-chamber, the lights come up and the stasis fields drop, as written. The incorporeal helmet animates, as written, but then addresses the party, in a feminine voice:
In Draconic, it welcomes visitors to the humble menagerie of Nhur Athemon, using the register of the language reserved for non-dragons addressing dragons.
In a pre-cataclysmic dialect of Elven, it welcomes visitors to experience the breadth of Golarion, through the tableaus of the mage Nhur Athemon.In Azlanti, it welcomes visitors to the magnificent menagerie of the mighty Nhur Athemon, and warns them not to touch anything.
Whichever character addresses the helmet, in whichever of those three languages, that's the character the helmet drifts beside. But it will answer any character's questions, in one of those languages.
--
In any other chamber, the helmet provides running commentary on the areas of pre-cataclysm Golarion which the room represents (bearing in mind that kingdoms have risen and fallen in the interim) and the monsters that the party fights. It doesn't so much provide the results of a knowledge check, but rather explains some of that information from the monster explanations, about the mating habits of the decapus or the relationship pugwampis have with gnolls.
The guide's knowledge of magic is limited, but it remembers that Nhur Athemon had designed each room to serve as a illusory representation of an actual place, and had rigged them not to decay by "looping the threads of each illusion around a living (or otherwise stable) part of the display. So long as the "heart" creature or object continued, the illusion would continue along as well.
The helmet identifies itself as "Melebdara" but does not know much more about itself. "That ... that subject of reflection is denied me in my current state. Please choose another topic." But I play Melebdara as a living mind, not an AI. She doesn't know what's in the Waterworks or the Pressing Room, because those aren't on the tour. (Although she can still identify the gibbering mouther and the deathtrap ooze.) She knows that she has just recently awakened, probably at the same time the menagerie stasis field dropped.
--
At the end of the dungeon, the party turns the corner and finds the sphinx, chained up, with its head bowed in meditation. Melebdara enters and moves across the room, fading into the sphinx, which awakes and speaks in the same voice. "So, this is where I have been. Welcome,my friends, to my chambers here." Her chains rattle as she attempts to stand. "Forgive my lack of hospitality."
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I feel this provides some structure to the level, some explanation as to what's going on (it's the first time the party hears the name Nhur Athemon) and provides a satisfying end to the adventure. (And it doesn't change any of the encounters, obviously.)
This is pure gold!
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this... was the worst of the dungeons.
CR on most of the critters was 3 or 4. No challenge for a group of six 5th-7th level characters.many things not mentioned in the module are terrain/environmental impacts. which is weird, because they're just illusions anyway,but the DC should be given for the disbelieving, like when you bump your head into the ceiling. The dungeon features aren't even specified like the other levels ( floors made of such and such, ceilings usually so and so high, doors made of wood etc. ) so i had to make up some of the stuff.
the hidden treasure in each room is mostly ridiculous, and completely an after thought. n treasure.
I agree. It was a horrible level. The completely obvious trap was the only at level challenge and most parties just avoided it because it was a completely obvious trap.
It specified that virtually everything was an illusion and never bothered giving a DC. Completely lame.
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this... was the worst of the dungeons.
CR on most of the critters was 3 or 4. No challenge for a group of six 5th-7th level characters.many things not mentioned in the module are terrain/environmental impacts. which is weird, because they're just illusions anyway,but the DC should be given for the disbelieving, like when you bump your head into the ceiling. The dungeon features aren't even specified like the other levels ( floors made of such and such, ceilings usually so and so high, doors made of wood etc. ) so i had to make up some of the stuff.
the hidden treasure in each room is mostly ridiculous, and completely an after thought. n treasure.
I agree. It was a horrible level. The completely obvious trap was the only at level challenge and most parties just avoided it because it was a completely obvious trap.
It specified that virtually everything was an illusion and never bothered giving a DC. Completely lame.
It is my contention that Mr. Greenwood was just phoning it in.
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this... was the worst of the dungeons.
CR on most of the critters was 3 or 4. No challenge for a group of six 5th-7th level characters.many things not mentioned in the module are terrain/environmental impacts. which is weird, because they're just illusions anyway,but the DC should be given for the disbelieving, like when you bump your head into the ceiling. The dungeon features aren't even specified like the other levels ( floors made of such and such, ceilings usually so and so high, doors made of wood etc. ) so i had to make up some of the stuff.
the hidden treasure in each room is mostly ridiculous, and completely an after thought. n treasure.
I agree. It was a horrible level. The completely obvious trap was the only at level challenge beyond the end boss and most parties just avoided it because it was a completely obvious trap.
It specified that virtually everything was an illusion and never bothered giving a DC. Completely lame.
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I figure the DC is 24.
If you've got one of the greatest wizards that ever lived creating these permanent illusions. He's going to have an 18 starting stat with a +2 racial bump. Add in another +4 from levels (4, 8, 12, and 16) and a headband +6 = Intelligence 30 for a +10 modifier. The illusion spell is 4th level (Hallucinatory Terrain), so we're looking at DC 24 Will for disbelief. I don't think this breaks anything... if anything it makes it more interesting.
I also wouldn't have them roll a will save until after they step off the main path or interact with the terrain in another way. This is a slight change from RAW, but it makes it more interesting when they stop off to fight something and I ask them to make a Will save. The fighter will have a moment of panic.
Fighter: I five-foot-step and attack the creature.
GM: Excellent; first please make me a will save.
Fighter: Ugh... an 11.
GM: Thank you, noted. <evil grin>
Rogue: I was going to acrobatics around to a flank, but I think I'll stay on the path.
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The mod specifies Hallucinatory Terrain. This guy may have had spell focus, but it's hard to say. From what we can learn from Thornkeep as a whole, he likes to collect things and uses a variety of magic to keep the things he's collected safe. His apprentices are a conjurer and a necromancer; we don't know what Vuzhon's specialty school is (if any).
Without other information, I'm going to assume he does not have anything extra special to bump the DCs past a 4th level spell. That being said, I only had a few players make the saves while walking around. The first few rooms when everyone was failing, people got really nervous. After someone finally made a save, then they became really curious. Each room after that was: "I walk into the room, and my Will save is 22. Did anything change?"
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I will be running this soon and I have a few questions.
* What kind of threat are Pugwumpis and Vexgits to the party? They can't really do any damage. Possibly they can try to damage some of the party's mundane gear with Shatter and Rusting Grasp. I think this room will just be a frustrating and drawn out encounter (with the 2 D20's having to be rolled). The column blow-outs seem like an interesting idea. I agree that it would be nice if there were some real stats and tactics given for this room, though.
* What possible negative effects does the illusionary terrain have on the party? It seems like it's just there for "color", like when it suddenly disappears when an encounter ends. I like the idea of the illusionary cover of the foliage, though.
* How exactly would the Adaro encounter work with them trying to attack from within water into the air tube? Do they just freely attack into the air while remaining in the water? Can someone point out the specific rules on characters attacking creatures from outside the water to inside the water (is it partial cover?). Do the creatures in the water then get a (partial?) cover penalty on attacking into the air tube?
* For the Mud Elementals, their tactic is to try to throw people off the bridge. But, since they start off on the ground then I'm guessing they need to earth glide up the bridge cliff onto the bridge? Can they easily glide directly upwards?
* Other than the Deathtrap Ooze, which I agree would be unlikely to be tripped by the party, the Gibbering Mouther seems to be the most dangerous encounter. But, it's a single creature starting off towards the middle of the room. If it doesn't have initiative it will likely be toast before being able to do much serious damage. Other than dropping from the ceiling (which I'm not sure how it can do that since it doesn't have a Climb speed nor special ability as far as I can tell to allow it to do something like that), what other tactics might work for it?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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The pugwampi/vexgit room is basically interact traps. The pugwampis should make sure that the PCs have bad luck so they will almost certainly fail their Reflex save when the vexgits collapse a column in their direction. I nearly dropped 2 PC's from a pair of those. But they do no real damage outside of that for the reasons you stated.
The terrain can hide enemies in some situations, like in the jungle, but otherwise it's just flavor.
For the elemental room, I have used the lightning spark ability of the lightning elemental to bring them down where the mud elementals are. They have to move up the stairs since those are not soft earth.
The adaro, I don't penalize piercing weapons and gave partial cover from slashing/bludgeoning weapons. A slight variation from the underwater rules.
For the Mouther, I have it ooze from underside the walkway about 20' from the players, so at least it isn't too far away and may be able to charge something. The walkway acts as something of a chokepoint which is arguably its best defense.
One idea that someone gave me that I've used is to make the helmet a speaking tourguide provided by Melabdara. That way, someone can describe the rooms and gives the PCs a chance to interact with the sphinx before actually engaging it. Because of Nhur Athemon's choice of languages, Azlanti, Elven, and Infernal would make sense for the sphinx to know as being learned from its master.