So lets say you are a Divine Defender Paladin, you fell from grace and become an anti paladin, could you technically obtain atonement, and choose a different archetype when you swap back to Paladin?
When such a fall occurs, the transformation can be swift. The paladin trades in all of his paladin levels for antipaladin levels on a 1-for-1 basis. This is usually a traumatic experience, involving a complex ritual that involves a living sacrifice and dark oaths made to foul powers (who sometimes send minions to bear witness). Once complete, the antipaladin emerges, ready to bring ruin to the world.
It should be noted that not all antipaladins are fallen heroes. Some warriors are trained from a young age to assume the mantle of antipaladin, forged through pain and trauma into exemplars of evil. These cruel warriors know nothing of compassion or loyalty, but they can teach a great deal about pain and suffering.
RAW, I would go with no. If you do manage an atonement you would go back to being whatever levels/archtypes/choices of paladin you had before falling. Heck if you leveled up as an antipaladin and then atoned back you'd have 'dead' levels as well it would seem.
I have no plans of ever doing this, however, I was researching paladins which lead to antipaladins, and that is when I saw what I thought might be some kind of crazy stupid way to change archetypes... god I need to find better things to do at work
Without knowing the semantics of Alternate classes.... No. I don't see a statement in the Anti-Paladin that you can re-trade your levels of Anti in for Original flavour. Which would in theory mean that you'd be stuck with <X> levels of Anti that you couldn't get rid of. Now I think about it that would then mean you can't take levels in pally, as Anti is the alternate class for it and you can't have Original + alternate class on one char.
Anyways... Assuming that was possible to do the trade in.... I see no reason why you couldn't.
At the time of taking / re-taking your levels in pally, you don't have a pre-existing archetype or lack thereof that would mean you can't take the pick up a different archetype this time around.
From a thematic point of view, it might make a great deal of sense that a Paladin might change coming back from being an Anti. At the simplest level, he might choose to become a Sacred Servant because that god chose not to give up on him and is the reason he became un-AntiPally. Alternately, a Hospitaler might decide that they are through with healing after seeing the depths of evil, and actively take the fight to the infernal with an oath against fiends. A shining knight might come back as anything else as their steed doesn't trust them any more.
That said... yeah... should be a pretty rare occurrence. You could I guess do a story about something like a pally tricked into putting on a helm of opposite alignment and then his friends redeeming him which would make a degree of sense. But in the natural course of things going from Angel to Demon then back to Angel... This isn't a fall or temptation or moment of weakness here we're talking about with being an Anti. This is full blown "I'm evil as sin and enjoy actively promoting evil in others."
I think it's possible, but should be one of those VERY rare moments--the concept of falling and redemption becomes a bit boring when it goes from being a rare occurrence, to something incredibly common. As to why I think it should be possible--nothing would show a deity's power and influence, or their mercy, then to show that no matter how far their followers fall, there's always forgiveness and redemption.
That said, the types who would fall THAT far to be an Antipaladin would PROBABLY not be the sort to be redeemed, at least not easily, so again, would be VERY rare.
This isn't a fall or temptation or moment of weakness here we're talking about with being an Anti. This is full blown "I'm evil as sin and enjoy actively promoting evil in others."
Would it have to be though? A demon or devil that fooled the paladin (it's possible to do with the right magical protection against the flashlight of justice... I mean detect evil) could convince the paladin that a course was right and just - and corrupt the guy into a moment when he changes - now he's stuck and perhaps didn't even realize that he changed.... That would take some work in game and good RP in co-ordination with the GM to pull off - but the story of a guy who is prodded into the wrong path until he can't tell what he stood for and then finds redemption is a strong one.
I'd say paladins of Sarenrae could always redeem no matter what (just because it's the nature of the deity) - other than that I think it would depend on the story and how the fall happened.
Why? Because she encourages redemption? She also encourages total war against those who are beyond redemption, and I'm inclined to believe that almost every Antipaladin who started out good is darn close to irredeemable just because.
I would go further than that and say I don't think it would be very rare to go Paladin>Antipaladin>Paladin, I think it would be just about unprecedented. Think about it, what is a paladin supposed to be? A recruitment tool for one thing, but also a paragon in the truest sense of the word: an example to be followed by anyone who seeks glory for their god. Let the clerics preach about how they were turned back from evil, because if you trade away your paladin levels, you aren't going to be a paladin of anything ever again. After all, amidst the champions of goodness is no place to have a heel face revolving door.
That said, were I the GM of a character that had been redeemed from antipaladin, I wouldn't screw the player over with dead levels, I would let them trade away those levels in favor of some other class, especially Inquisitor.
That said, were I the GM of a character that had been redeemed from antipaladin, I wouldn't screw the player over with dead levels, I would let them trade away those levels in favor of some other class, especially Inquisitor.
The inquisitor is not a paladin. It can have fluff like a paladin sure, but it most certainly doesn't have paladin mechanics like a mount, immunities, smite evil, and full BAB.
I don't expect a paladin to go to anti and forward and back 10 times in their life, but they probably can go back and forth. I think its taking it a bit too far to claim that anti paladins are beyond redemption and paladins are uncorruptable. Its not super rare, and it definitely isn't common, but it can happen and its not that bad for a paladin who went antipaladin to have a realization that they made a horrible error and want to atone, or for an antipaladin who went paladin to feel betrayed and sink right back into a Chaotic Evil life full of hatred against those who deserve it.
If it was a homegame it might help to make an archetype for the antipaladin similar to the paladin so they still have the same feel, unless you really want to go from sword and board to 2H and stick with it.
Why? Because she encourages redemption? She also encourages total war against those who are beyond redemption
Slightly off topic, but that really depends on the sect of Sarenrae worshipers you are dealing with. Some are more in favor of her forgiving side and less in favor of her warring side, and visa versa. If you're dealing with the right sect of Sarenrae worshipers, you could reasonable be brought back into the fold and given redemption.
That said, to the original topic... I would say yes, you could switch your archetype, but you'd probably need to be selling it really well for me to accept it. The Oathbound archetypes may be a little bit easier to buy, but you'd have to be really damned convincing if you wanted to come back as a Holy Gun Paladin if you were originally a Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin, for example.
This isn't a fall or temptation or moment of weakness here we're talking about with being an Anti. This is full blown "I'm evil as sin and enjoy actively promoting evil in others."Would it have to be though? A demon or devil that fooled the paladin (it's possible to do with the right magical protection against the flashlight of justice... I mean detect evil) could convince the paladin that a course was right and just - and corrupt the guy into a moment when he changes - now he's stuck and perhaps didn't even realize that he changed.... That would take some work in game and good RP in co-ordination with the GM to pull off - but the story of a guy who is prodded into the wrong path until he can't tell what he stood for and then finds redemption is a strong one.
I'd say paladins of Sarenrae could always redeem no matter what (just because it's the nature of the deity) - other than that I think it would depend on the story and how the fall happened.
Ummm..... yes? They do have to be that evil? Go look up the SRD on it. Note the bit about Champions of evil.
This isn't a simple fall your talking about to become an Anti... a fallen Pally has some extra options if they want to become an anti-paladin, but ultimately.... It's still an Anti-paladin. It's still a chaotic evil (mandatory) class that a single good act can cause you to 'fall'.
For me at least, I THINK that the scenario your looking at there is that cusp period AFTER a pally has fallen, but BEFORE he's started trading out his levels into Anti-Paladin. During the period between the two when his alignment is most likely in a little bit of flux and is more susceptible to the influence of fiends (can't use his flashlight of detection). For me though, once you have started taking levels in Anti-paladin, your alignment is already Chaotic Evil, and your subject to the morality code of them (one good act).
RAW, I don't see a way that you could have become an Anti and 'Not realised it'. Logically speaking you walk past a tavern, throw a copper to the begger outside and are suddenly stripped of your Anti powers (as you've been 'good' by providing charity for those in need) and are left going "I know there have been some harsh threads on pallys falling, but what the heck was THAT about?" Or you go to lay on hands and blow half your torso off with Touch of Corruption instead and channel negative energy instead of positive and wonder why your friends are all dead instead of dying. Or why your holy sword is rebelling against you, or why you can't cast "Bestow Grace of Champions" any more, or why that unholy shadow thing is hanging around all the time.... etc etc etc etc.
Ummm..... yes? They do have to be that evil? Go look up the SRD on it. Note the bit about Champions of evil.This isn't a simple fall your talking about to become an Anti... a fallen Pally has some extra options if they want to become an anti-paladin, but ultimately.... It's still an Anti-paladin. It's still a chaotic evil (mandatory) class that a single good act can cause you to 'fall'.
For me at least, I THINK that the scenario your looking at there is that cusp period AFTER a pally has fallen, but BEFORE he's started trading out his levels into Anti-Paladin. During the period between the two when his alignment is most likely in a little bit of flux and is more susceptible to the influence of fiends (can't use his flashlight of detection). For me though, once you have started taking levels in Anti-paladin, your alignment is already Chaotic Evil, and your subject to the morality code of them (one good act).
RAW, I don't see a way that you could have become an Anti and 'Not...
Here is the antipaladin's
Their code is for sure much looser then that of a paladin.
Not all paladins that fall become antipaladins. In fact, the transformation is quite rare. Most paladins spend months or even years regaining their paladinhood, but they never stray so far from the path as to become irredeemable. Rarely, a paladin turns from the light and seeks instead to make a pact with the dark powers. Often this is through temptation or some sort of ruse, but once the deal is struck, the paladin finds himself on the path to damnation.
When such a fall occurs, the transformation can be swift. The paladin trades in all of his paladin levels for antipaladin levels on a 1-for-1 basis.
I would point out 2 things.
First, the opening paragraph of the "Fall From Grace" section seems to indicate by its wording that most fallen Paladins never reach irredeemable status. But, that going so far as to become an Anti-Paladin makes you actually irredeemable. From that time on, you may cease to be pure evil, but will never get back to pure good. Some stains never wash off.
Second, the RAW doesn't indicate anywhere that Anti-Paladins could trade their levels on a 1-for-1 basis, like the Paladin could in a fall. Maybe, if they got back to LG, they could start again at level 1, with some dead Anti-Levels. If you trade your soul for power, you can't just trade it back again.
This is largely borne out in literature. Hercules, even after his labors, never forgives himself for the death of his family. Roland, the Companion of Charlemagne goes off to live as a hermit after the events of Orlando Furioso. After the Sith War, the fallen Sith Lord Ulic Qel-Droma, stripped of all Force abilities, moves to Hoth and lives as a recluse.
First, the opening paragraph of the "Fall From Grace" section seems to indicate by its wording that most fallen Paladins never reach irredeemable status. But, that going so far as to become an Anti-Paladin makes you actually irredeemable. From that time on, you may cease to be pure evil, but will never get back to pure good. Some stains never wash off.
Second, the RAW doesn't indicate anywhere that Anti-Paladins could trade their levels on a 1-for-1 basis, like the Paladin could in a fall. Maybe, if they got back to LG, they could start again at level 1, with some dead Anti-Levels. If you trade your soul for power, you can't just trade it back again.
This is largely borne out in literature. Hercules, even after his labors, never forgives himself for the death of his family. Roland, the Companion of Charlemagne goes off to live as a hermit after the events of Orlando Furioso. After the Sith War, the fallen Sith Lord Ulic Qel-Droma, stripped of all Force abilities, moves to Hoth and lives as a recluse.
Thats pretty brutal, to go so far you never come back. Reminds me of a game I once played where the DM and his girlfriend told me redemption and atonement were evil, becuase you had already commited the evil act in the first place. Trashed that character, made a new one. The logic was absurd in practice.
I do believe it is entirely possible for someone to turn around. Face heel turn from CE to LG and vice versa. If every man with a scar was turned from being a paladin...
Brutal or not the RAW bears out falling from paladin into antipaladin and states you can swap out levels from one into the other. RAW doesn't allow for going from antipaladin into paladin and switching levels that way.
In the typical situation that a paladin 'falls' they don't become an antipaladin, they lose their abilities. In this situation an atonement spell can resolve the 'fall' and the character gets their abilities back. The swap of character levels removes the possibility of the atonement spell working (read the portion regarding getting abilities back) anymore without GM intervention.
RAW, you would be unable to go back to being a paladin by virtue of atonement if you fell so 'far' as to switch class levels to antipaladin.
Brutal or not the RAW bears out falling from paladin into antipaladin and states you can swap out levels from one into the other. RAW doesn't allow for going from antipaladin into paladin and switching levels that way.
In the typical situation that a paladin 'falls' they don't become an antipaladin, they lose their abilities. In this situation an atonement spell can resolve the 'fall' and the character gets their abilities back. The swap of character levels removes the possibility of the atonement spell working (read the portion regarding getting abilities back) anymore without GM intervention.
RAW, you would be unable to go back to being a paladin by virtue of atonement if you fell so 'far' as to switch class levels to antipaladin.
What if it does work backwords and no one wrote it in? I don't see whats so bad about an antipaladin going into paladin.
If noone wrote it in, it is by definition not RAW.
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If noone wrote it in, it is by definition not RAW.
Hypothetical. I didn't really care if it was or not in the statement.
I can see someone having a game where an antipaladin falls from his alignment, finds goodness in his heart, and becomes a renewed champion for good. My favorite characters from media are the bad guys that become good guys.
I see this character in question being perfectly parallel to Darth Vader... starts out as a paragon of good, falls, becomes a paragon of evil, and after seeing the error of his ways comes back from darkness.
My question here is about antipaladins and paladin archetypes, can they mesh?
If I am an oathbound paladin, do I keep my oath spells? Can an antipaladin swear an oath to kill only good dragons? What if his vengeance oath leads him to evil, as he must become evil to fulfill it?
Mechanically the question is just whether or not antipaladins are restricted to the base class as described in the APG.
RAW you can take archetypes from your alternate class if they trade out the same things. Antipaladins don't share much with the paladin.
Homegame its probably easy to just switch the words good and evil on half of it and you'd be okay.
The way I understand Paladins...at least in roleplay, is that the person does not choose to be a paladin, the deity chooses the person. Someone can strive to become the class, but they may fall short. Many LG characters that have the qualities of a paladin, are not chosen.
Saying this, while it may not be impossible for a reformed anti-paladin to gain the grace to become a paladin...it would take some epic roleplay and plot-twisting to come up with the logic why a deity would pick this person, who was once the antithesis of what her faith represents, when there are so may other candidates to choose from, that do not have an evil past.
And even if for some convoluted reason, approval was given for this reformed wretch to gain paladinhood...all traces of his evil life would have to be left behind. No abilities that were tied to anti-paladin class could be used. Basically just skills, and those feats that are not connected to the Dark Power he once served.
There are a lot of ways to become a paladin, and between settings and DMs and players its going to change a bit. The main thing is that its all fluff, I've always thought of paladins as powered by their own righteousness rather than blessed. Makes them feel like they're responcible and in control, rather than guys who won the super power lottery. Paladin of the ideal I guess, especially since they don't have a need for a diety in the mechanics.
I know the paladin class itself is a wierd case where fluff and mechanics mesh to make it, and by RAW you don't have much wiggle room.
Divine Grace.
Divine Health.
Divine Bond.
Divine Defender*.
Sacred Servant*.
Warrior of the Holy Light*.
-Power of Faith**.
Divine Hunter*.
Holy Gun*.
-Divine Deed**.
-Holy Grit**.
-Holy Slinger**.
Holy Tactician*.
Sacred Shield*.
-Holy Shield**.
-Holy Vessel**.
-Holy Reach**.
Holy Champion.
Yep. Powered by their own righteousness. No help from the divine.
* Archetype
* Archetype Class Ability
I did see that the paladin didnt have the option writtten in, but for whatever reason I just thought it worked both ways. I do agree that it should be few and far between to go back and forth, but I really would like to see this in action in a game some time
An irony occurs to me looking at this as RAW...
If a pally can swap out their levels for Anti, but not vice versa.... Does that mean that the gods of evil are more forgiving than the gods of good? More willing to overlook the errors of a mis-spent or mis-raised youth and allow them to become their sacred (errr.... unholy) beacons of wrath, while the gods of Good run around holding a grudge saying "Nope... you were an anti once. Can't trust you. Sorry."
Are the evil gods actually the ones that should get the Redemption / Forgiveness portfolio?
(Hides from incoming violence).
Does that mean that the gods of evil are more forgiving than the gods of good?
Yes! Obviously the Demon Lords aren't so bad, but that Saranrae... Jezelda seemed nice enough, just have to get past that whole cannibalism thing.
If you want extra irony, which one is more likely to backstab you? The guy trying to atone for all his sins and went LG, or the guy who just went CE?
It wouldnt make sense for them to be given levels in any other class, just like paladin, it takes just as much commitment to be perfect oneself to being the fighting machine that is a fighter, and that is really the same with any class. If an Antipaladin is unable to become a paladin, than he would simply become an ex-antipaladin, with the rules stated in the book
and as for vader? I dont know that he was ever really a paladin in the begining. his pre vader days, he didnt ever seem to have the commitment needed to fallow a paladins code, I would say that he was for sure a 3.5 antipaladin, but for whatever reason, paizo made them chaotic (doesnt make sense to me) Regardless of any semantics, at the time of his returning to the light, he didnt show any signs of being a paladin again, just that he wanted to save his son.
and as for vader?
I would say Vader was a Jedi class myself. They have different mechanics. They aren't as limited to picking one side or another as silly divine casters.
Yeah, if you can't go paladin really an anti-paladin would be an ex-antipaladin. Dead levels. Fighter is just the closest match, but when you put it like you did they sort of feel like... suck?
Aaalllrighty!!!
Ladies and gentlemen!
Sorry to interrupt your discussion here, but I have a very interesting question to ask, since I'm not sure about something. I will cut this story short.
Recently, I read Artifacts and Legends book. I found the Thorncrown of Iomedae. It says that the Thorncrown grants deflection bonus to Paladin's Armor Class equal to Paladin's Charisma modifier. That's awesome. But what if the Paladin that wears the Thorncrown of Iomedae uses a smite evil on an evil outsider, the activated smite evil also provides deflection bonus to armor class equal to Paladin's charisma modifier. Do these two deflection bonuses, from both smite evil and the Thorncrown stack? I'm pretty sure they don't, since it would be fantastic and brutal, but I would really like to know if they really stack or don't. Thank you all in advance.
Untill next time.
Peace!
In general, bonuses of the same type don't stack. If you get a "Deflection Bonus to AC" from two different sources, you simply use the higher one. In this case, they would be identical, so you would just go with the one you want.
Thanks, Crusader. I am sorry again, but I have another question. Does that mean that, for example, if the Cleric casts Holy Aura on Paladin, and since Holy Aura also gives deflection bonus, then Holy Aura also doesn't stack with the bonus from the Thorncrown or Smite Evil?
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Thanks, Crusader. I am sorry again, but I have another question. Does that mean that, for example, if the Cleric casts Holy Aura on Paladin, and since Holy Aura also gives deflection bonus, then Holy Aura also doesn't stack with the bonus from the Thorncrown or Smite Evil?
That's exactly what it means.
In general, bonuses of the same type, except for -dodge- type bonuses do not stack. If they had intended some to stack, the writers could have left them without a type (untyped) and then they would be able to stack.
Ok, so it would be better for the Cleric not to waste that spell on the Paladin :) Then he should focus on other spells :) I know that this was too early to ask because of the Thorncrown, since party is just 12th level, but it's good to know in advance :)