So, a little background...
My group was set to play a "gestalt" campaign and I was thinking of different classes that would work together when I hit upon wizard alchemist. I got really excited with the concept when, long story short, that game fell apart. However, I now have this stuck in my mind.
So, what I want to do...
I want to make a multiclass alchemist wizard (not gestalt just to be clear). I know, I know. Not the best idea but I want to see what can be done with it.
I think the best way would be to dip alchemist and focus on wizard. I think you would want at least two levels of alchemist to unlock discoveries (and Extra Discovery feat). I thought transmutation fit best "theme" wise with alchemist.
I also thought sorcerer (with arcane/sage bloodline) would fit the theme as well but I didn't like losing Scribe Scroll (for free) and spell levels one level later.
So, basically...
I'm looking for ideas, any ideas. Archetypes, feats, discoveries, what do you got? I'm really open to anything at this point. Would blaster work best, play off his bombs? What about buffing, and his mutagen? Has anyone ever tried this before?
It isn't a particularly inspiring combo, but if I were going to do a wizard with an alchemist dip, I'd dip Mindchemist to pick up the cognatogen.
That's +4 int at the cost of str damage for hours. Not bad for a DC boost.
And if I really wanted to unlock the extra discovery feat (which IMHO isn't worth it without investing towards the higher level discoveries) I'd also take the internal alchemist archtype which lets me take improved init/save boost feats in place of discoveries. By default the only discovery I'd be interested in as a dipping wizard would be enhance potion, and then, not very interested.
Well I thought it was neat...
Do you not think infusion would be good? My first idea was an item heavy character. Potions, scrolls, bombs, infusions, etc.
For race I was thinking Elf and then Breadth of Knowledge with everything else would make a great utility character.
I do like Internal Alchemist but taking Extra Discovery to take other feats seems silly.
Well if it was me I would go with cryptbreaker alchemist at level 1 then arcane bomber at level 2 and then simply stay with wizard from there on out.
Hmm...
I'll confess I haven't played the Alchemist much, but how about this.
Go Sorcerer (Sylvan) to get an animal best buddy. Go three levels of Alchemist (whatever) and take Boon Companion. With those three levels, can you get something to use your mutagen/etc or extracts on your companion?
Hmm, I don't know crypt breaker. What book is that in? I looked at arcane bomber but thought you gave up a lot (no cantrips, four prohibited schools) just for increased bomb damage. I guess you would focus on bombs for damage and use spells for utility?
Sorcerer sylvan/alchemist uses two casting stats but the infusion discovery should let your animal companion use your extracts (assuming you can feed them a potion). Infuse mutagen should work the same but at 1,000 GP a pop. I like the idea of a pet. I was thinking familiar for his arcane bond.
I'm not too worried if he can't dish out damage if he can do other things. I like the idea of him having the right spell, scroll, potion available at any moment. Probably better ways to do it, just wanted to see what could be done with it.
Ahh found it. (I only have CRB, APG, UM, UC, and just recently the Race guide). I definitely like trap finding. I could work with the changed bombs but their mutagen is terrible. Are there any other archetypes that pick up trap finding? (Wizard or alchemist) that would really help him out.
|
Just get a high perception, traits, skill focus etc and skill ranks... and then learn Aram Zeys trap warding.
Aside from the ability to disable magical traps, the difference between a rogue with high perception and disable device and anyone else is purely "trapfinding" which gives a bonus to disable device and enables magical trap deactivating.
So once you find a magical trap, cast the spell, use a wand of it, etc and then make your roll.
Don't bother with bad archetypes.
Well I thought it was neat...
Do you not think infusion would be good? My first idea was an item heavy character. Potions, scrolls, bombs, infusions, etc.
For race I was thinking Elf and then Breadth of Knowledge with everything else would make a great utility character.
I do like Internal Alchemist but taking Extra Discovery to take other feats seems silly.
Infusions are only good if you have the extracts to make into infusions, and a low level alchemist doesn't.
The alchemist does get brew potion for free, but is it really worth the dip?
And taking internal alchemist was to get you the replacement feat for your second level discovery, not to get redundant with actual feat selections.
And taking internal alchemist was to get you the replacement feat for your second level discovery, not to get redundant with actual feat selections.
Ahh, I gotcha. That's my misunderstanding. So, no discoveries at all, hmm?
And you said no extracts, I'm guessing per day. It seems he would have any number of them known (all 1st lvl of course). Is there a way to increase the number per day?
The alchemist does get brew potion for free, but is it really worth the dip?
It's not a question of "worth it," it's what can be done with it!
Dipping Mindchemist Vivisectionist (feel free to add Internal as well, all the archetypes can combine) Alchemist to enter Arcane Trickster works just fine.
Trapfinding isn't that important, aside from the bonus all it does is let you disarm magical traps. Anyone can find any trap and disable nonmagical ones already. And detect magic and dispel magic exist. Just max ranks in Perception and Disable Device.
And taking internal alchemist was to get you the replacement feat for your second level discovery, not to get redundant with actual feat selections.
Ahh, I gotcha. That's my misunderstanding. So, no discoveries at all, hmm?
And you said no extracts, I'm guessing per day. It seems he would have any number of them known (all 1st lvl of course). Is there a way to increase the number per day?
The only way to increase extracts per day is by large scale permanent int increases and leveling up in alchemist. Which somewhat limits the utility of infusions, even if you're happy with just 1st level ones.
That said, I think StreamOfTheSky has a clever idea with taking Vivisectionist to get to arcane trickster. I think the class is a little underwhelming, but it's got solid flavor.
Here's another fun idea, take the arcane bond from the wizard and the tumor familiar as your alchemist discovery. You're jumping to a prestige class anyway so you might as well have a best of both low-level worlds.
See, I was thinking you couldn't find traps with a DC higher than 20. Is that some old rule stuck in my head? Have they dropped it for Pathfinder?
I know a lot people don't worry about traps but they can be deadly in the games I play. It wouldn't be necessary but would add to his usefulness.
So looking at Arcane Trickster, I would need three levels of Alchemist. Would the fourth level be worth it? Extra BAB, 2nd lvl extracts and another discovery?
I would also need three levels of wizard. Would your specialization matter at that level? I was thinking transmutation at first but maybe illusion or enchantment if going with arcane trickster?
What I've got so far 3rd lvl Alchemist (Mind Chemist/Vivisectionist) 3rd lvl Wizard (Conjuration/Creation Subschool) 6th lvl Arcane Trickster. He's got the BAB bonus of a primary caster, sneak attack +3d6, can make one attack per day a sneak attack, cast a spell without verbal or somatic components 3/day, and can cast 5th lvl spells, and can create any object weighing three pounds are less 3+/day. Plus scribe scroll and brew potion for free!
That's kind of a neat list of abilities. Certainly different from how I saw him when thinking about a gestalt build!
Any recommendations on feats? I was thinking Breadth of Experience and Craft Wand. He has light armor proficiency, would Arcane Armor Training be worth it? That would give me a 5% chance to fail in Celestial Armor.
Ohh, what about Merciful Spell and Sap Adept/Sap Master!?
what are you going for with this... would help to give an idea of your goal.
That's my current character actually. Gestalt wizard alchemist. It seems pretty darn fun so far.
ooo... close on the legality with the archetypes... and school does matter, gives you the basic buff (probably for those spells you want to cast), and a x/day ability. not the buffs wont apply to your alchy extracts, just fair warning.
what are you going for with this... would help to give an idea of your goal.
Well my concept when I was planning a gestalt character was the ultimate elven wizard. He would have had full wizard abilities, the alchemist abilities would just be a bonus. I envisioned him covered in potions and scrolls and wands etc. Just brimming with magical power. I knew that would change going from gestalt to multiclass (although really not too far off so far). I just wanted to see how viable he would be in an adventuring party.
I'm kinda liking it so far. He definitely lost some of his ultimate Mage feel and picked up a good bit of magic rogue but he has a neat combination of abilities so far.
What does everybody think so far. Would he be a help or a hindrance in a party? What does he need to make him better?
|
IMHO a wizard, even not fully optimized, will always be a help to a party, so long as the player makes good tactical decisions.
I do like the idea of taking mindchemist for the cognatogen, because essentially for a one level dip you are gaining the equivalent of (2*however many schools you would want a high dc for) feats. (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.) as a buff for a pretty significant amount of time. Add in actually taking those feats, as a human you could potentially be a Mindchemist 1 / Wizard 1 and have a dc of 19 (10+4 from 18 Int Mod, easily made higher on a 20pt buy)+ 2(Int after cog)+1(SF)+1(GSF)+1(spell)) for a first level spell. Sleep is now just about impossible to save, thus making it even more BA than it was before. As a level 2 character, that's pretty impressive, no matter how you look at it.
Add in the small bonus of brew potion and that makes it a pretty nice looking dip to me. I might have to steal this idea for an NPC...
As for being an ultimate mage, while you may be one level behind other wizards, I feel like the overall bonus gained from the DC boost is well worth it. Also, when you don't feel like wasting any of your higher level spells (and who still really prepares that many damage dealers at low levels?) you can still toss a few bombs for extra damage.
Also, with taking even one more of the craft feats (wondrous being the obvious, magic arms and armor being a close second for the party) you are now a walking magic shop, assuming you get enough off time.
All in all, I see more good than harm from taking the dip, other than the one level behind, but you are still on par with a sorcerer for available level of spells. /serious
Now, if you try this as a sorcerer, you should slap yourself with the CRB first. /sarcasm