Yes, if that's what you want, it won't hurt me or the other players' characters at all, and I would have no problem challenging your character.I just want a character with 18s in all stats and triple WBL, that cool in your game?What is wrong with builds? If I like builds please don't bash them. I can roleplay however and whatever I like same as any of you. What this thread lacks and will lack until shut down, is definitive proof either way that one method is superior to another. I've created characters hundreds of ways,some I liked some I did not but guess what...none of them were wrong.Nothing is wrong with that if that what you like to play. You can play the character you want, made the way you want in my game. If you are using PB, can I make my rolled character in your game? That's the issue, one way is telling players you can't do what's fun to you, that's the only problem with it.
I don't know why that is hard to grasp. It's the simplest courtesy in the world, don't exert your will on other ppl!
Sorry, bro, I don't want my character to be challenged, I want him to easily overcome all challenges like the great demi-god king he is while the other characters stand around in awe of him.
Don't restrict me by throwing challenges at my character, that's total Tyrant GM meta-gaming.
In all seriousness Rebel Arch, how are you going to go about challenging both a character with all 18s the decides to play a Battle Oracle using advice from optimization guides, and a guy who rolls for stats and winds up with the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and decides to play a Monk who has taken the vow of poverty and give away all his worldly possessions who are in the same party without metagaming the hell out of things as a GM?
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Last time I tried a rolling system with my players I allowed them to roll 10 sets and pick the best one. I watched the rolls, they weren't happy when they came out lower than expected. With 10 sets of rolls...
I had been keen on point buy previously as the 3.5 campaign I played in had very high stat characters, mine included. Thing is I had a lot of time on my hands to make characters, and never ended up playing the low stat characters I rolled...
Point buy solved all that. People complain about the dump stat, how can you function with a 7 in a stat? Just fine normally with a -2 penalty... One of out players can't tolerate the thought of a low stat and won't buy that way. They function just fine.
20 points can buy you 16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10. With a +2 race mod there is an 18 or 3 16's. You see far fewer dwarves and elves with 18 strength. You see a lot of Humans, Half orcs and half elves as they can put the +2 boost into the highest stat to maximise their points.
One disadvantage of point buy is it rewards the character that is built at higher level. You want 18 strength? Buy it at level 4 and save some points. Great unless you have to make it through the first 3 levels with the lower stat...
100 simulated character builds each using 3d6, 4d6 drop low, and 4d6 no ones drop low.
1) 3d6 averages to a 5 Point Buy and is just... Wow.
2) 4d6 drop low averages to around a 20 Point Buy but I've seen it go as low as 18. The RANDBETWEEN function recalculates the entire workbook if you blink funny at the document.
3) 4d6 no ones drop low is still around a 30 Point Buy.
One campaign I'm in does 4d6 drop low 7 times and ignore the lowest result. It's probably safe to say it's somewhere between method 2 and method 3 in average point buy value.
Don't you have something better to do than to argue pointless semantics?
The GM and the players agree on the rules for character creation for a campaign be it point buy, rolled stats, both, neither, drawing cards, etc. There. Done.
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Ciretose, I'm not telling anyone they have to roll, I'm telling other ppl not to control what's fun for me or players who don't agree with them. Your concept of fair and balanced is horribly wrong. I saw you in another thread rudely berating a new player b/c his experience with the DM wasn't fun for him. You think it's ok to dictate other ppl's game experience so it doesn't "disrupt" you, but oddly enough don't see yourself as disrupting what is fun to that other person. Why don't you grow up realize there are other ppl in the world that don't like what you like and learn to get along with them.
Actually you are. You are telling the GM they have to run whatever you bring to the table, no matter what.
And you are telling the other players they have to accomodate whatever you bring. They have to play at the level you set.
Sounds awesome...
In all seriousness Rebel Arch, how are you going to go about challenging both a character with all 18s the decides to play a Battle Oracle using advice from optimization guides, and a guy who rolls for stats and winds up with the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and decides to play a Monk who has taken the vow of poverty and give away all his worldly possessions who are in the same party without metagaming the hell out of things as a GM?My group is role players, so someone might have phobias or vices that are much more challenging then any dice advantage can be, but let's say the person is just totally different from the group not only do they want all 18s but aren't interested in RP, you can design encounters for that.
I'm not familiar with the battle oracle, but it's a spontaneous caster that uses CHA right? So it's not really any more capable than an optimized PB build that got an 18 CHA. What extra does it have? Maybe another +2 or 3 to AC and saves?
1) We like skill challenges, so let's do a foot chase, the Monk is faster and more likely to catch the bad guy. Let's make it important, it was a thief still a crystal vile that hold's the princess' soul. Boom monk just saved the day!
2) In combat, use a spacious area, a BBEG w/ multiple minions that skirmish, the monk's mobility would shine. The Oracle can feel great he's taking on the big bad guy. The monk is probably happy he is getting the chance to bounce around the field. Say they don't pick the targets you expected? They both struggle through, taking a lot of damage maybe? Then as a healer they didn't do to well and shine too much.
3) My preferred option, try and involve them in the story and challenge them with options that are in conflict with their alignment. Would that affect an oracles' domains? Spellcasting?
1) Oracle, or another spell caster hits the thief with Hold Person, Grease, Dominate, Slow, ect. Boom.
2) Why would a monk want to "bounce around"? His primary class feature is gaining extra attacks by standing still. I'm getting that the theme is that the monk gets to run around a lot.
Maybe his challenge can be running away from combat before he dies while the other characters get to be heroes who fight the actual bad guys?
3) Oracles don't care about alignment by RAW, IIRC.
Anyway, this is why I don't like rolling for stats, you end up, especially at low levels, someone ends up being Jimmy Olsen trying to keep up with Superman and the only way to provide equal challenges to the characters is through serious metagaming on the part of the GM.
Anyway, this is why I don't like rolling for stats, you end up, especially at low levels, someone ends up being Jimmy Olsen trying to keep up with Superman and the only way to provide equal challenges to the characters is through serious metagaming on the part of the GM.
Jimmy Olsen had his own comic line. Every issue a new powerthat he kept only till the end of the issue. Only a few times did they ever repeat powers. Oddly enough Superman tried to make Jimmy marry an ape more than once... Superman is a jerk.
Anyways the best thing to do as a GM when 1 player is blatantly weaker than the others is to make sure things come up that only he can do. Done well you don't even notice it, done poorly it looks overly contrived. Its like campaigns with no traps suddenly having traps when a new player shows up with his rogue.
You can make campaigns that have rolled stats with varying levels of power work. It just requires more effort on the part of the GM and players to make sure it remains fun and balanced for all members of the group. I'm pretty lazy (so much that when I play wargames I choose the side I'm standing on because walking around the table is too much work) so I prefer point buy.
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We go out to dinner...
You're not going out to dinner, you're coming over to my house for dinner and telling me when you get there you don't want the steak I bought, you want chicken.
Maybe you tell me when I ask you over to dinner 'hey can you make chicken' and I say yes. Maybe I say no, and suggest you cook dinner. Maybe we just don't do dinner.
But if you come to my house and tell me what to make when you get there? Yeah, that's 'exerting your will'.
"Hey, wanna come over for dinner?" = "Hey let's play DnD."
"I'm making steaks!!!" = "We're using a point-buy to make characters."
"You cannot buy a stat under a 9 or over a 16, because that isn't the kind of game I want to run." = "You must eat your steak medium rare, and if you don't also eat the mashed potatoes then you are no longer welcome to my house!!!!"
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This whole discussion is crazy to me. I'm not even sure I'm playing the same game as you Rebel Arch.
If you have characters in your game with stats in the 30's and made up abilities that allow a PC to teleport at will when attacked then what exactly is the point of even rolling stats? You have to understand how silly this sounds to many people that actually use the rulebook for rules.
You say you'd be proud of rolling a bunch of poor stats just because you ROLLED them?
So if I ran a 30 point buy game and you asked to roll and came up with 13,12,10,10,8,8 or some other poor array you would just go with it? Seems a bit like going down with the ship to me...
Anyway, just my 2 cents...
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Ciretose, I'm not telling anyone they have to roll, I'm telling other ppl not to control what's fun for me or players who don't agree with them. Your concept of fair and balanced is horribly wrong. I saw you in another thread rudely berating a new player b/c his experience with the DM wasn't fun for him. You think it's ok to dictate other ppl's game experience so it doesn't "disrupt" you, but oddly enough don't see yourself as disrupting what is fun to that other person. Why don't you grow up realize there are other ppl in the world that don't like what you like and learn to get along with them.
Actually you are. You are telling the GM they have to run whatever you bring to the table, no matter what.
And you are telling the other players they have to accomodate whatever you bring. They have to play at the level you set.
Sounds awesome...
@Ciertose
It is getting more and more difficult for me not to favorite every one of your posts, sir.
Please try and refrain yourself from such concise and accurate statements in the future. ;)
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Rebel you are right about PB only folks being controlling. As one myself I finally see how I am limiting the fun of my players. I thought PB only would make everyone balanced and work easier for me as a GM. You have poked holes in every one of those arguments though. I think its time I stepped aside and allow those who are truly open to fun to do so.
You are wrong about my generation though. We are not a selfish shallow group. I understand now why RPG communities are dwindling. Folks like myself can not have a good time with some one playing in a certain fashion next to us. In turn, they are deciding to fore go RPGs for those who are more enlightened and free spirited.
Its not my story. Its my story and the GMs story and all the players story individually at the same time. A concept that until now has escaped me.
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When you put it like this, I understand your side, but we have no more need to debate between us, b/c I don't see it like the DMs game, and never will. I see it like a dinner party and you're telling the ppl who brought something you don't like to leave. Which I guess you will never see it like that.
If you go look at my posting history, you'll see that I did see it like that, up until this discussion. But as long as you understand, you don't have to agree.
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This whole discussion is crazy to me. I'm not even sure I'm playing the same game as you Rebel Arch.
If you have characters in your game with stats in the 30's and made up abilities that allow a PC to teleport at will when attacked then what exactly is the point of even rolling stats? You have to understand how silly this sounds to many people that actually use the rulebook for rules.
You say you'd be proud of rolling a bunch of poor stats just because you ROLLED them?
So if I ran a 30 point buy game and you asked to roll and came up with 13,12,10,10,8,8 or some other poor array you would just go with it? Seems a bit like going down with the ship to me...
Anyway, just my 2 cents...
But who decides what a fair and adequate PB limit is? If some want high, and some want low, some players will get exactly what they want, while others don't get what they want? Is that fair just b/c you all have the same? If I wanted 15 PB and you wanted 30 PB, do we average them? Now neither is getting the level we wanted. The only completely unbiased and fair arrangement I know of is to roll.
It boils down to what you want to be the arbiter, a DM, popular opinion, or unbiased, unthinking dice? I'm only comfortable w/ dice for myself, I never tell other ppl what they can use. I take offense to other ppl telling me what I can use.
About my game, there rarely is a roll against that guy. I don't know what it is, I don't know if it's a part of the rules or not, it's between the DM and that character, and it has never hurt my experience. Why should it sound silly? Everyone is having fun. Why does it sound normal, and prop worthy for him to sit at a table and be miserable so other ppl can derive their fun from how their characters compare?
Has anyone here played Rifts? Your minds would explode. Some lvl 1 characters have a 100x more HPs than others, some weapons deal 4d6 while others deal 4d6x100. It's the best game system I have ever seen though, and ppl run very successful...
Actually, I played a ton of Rifts when I was a kid. I had a lot of fun too. Now, however, you could not pay me to play that game (or any Palladium game...except maybe Robotech! Lol). That system is horribly imbalanced and the fact that I had fun playing it when I was young does not change that. I use to have fun doing a lot of things that I don't find enjoyable anymore.
But Rifts was never meant to be balanced. There is no CR system. You can play your Dragon, or Glitter Boy alongside my Juicer, and while I may not be as powerful as you, It was my choice to play it knowing full well that I will never be your equal in combat (or probably anything).
You obviously prefer a game that has very little balance and that's okay. But Pathfinder is not that game. D&D has never been that game. And while maybe it hasn't always succeeded, it doesn't change the fact that balance is more often than not the key to any successful game.
It is not how you generate stats that make characters unique or memorable. It is how you play them.
Whatever. To each his own i guess.
*Runs to go start looking through his Rifts books*
*Runs to go start looking through his Rifts books*
*Sigh* I wish I still had all my old Rifts books.
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We go out to dinner...You're not going out to dinner, you're coming over to my house for dinner and telling me when you get there you don't want the steak I bought, you want chicken.
Maybe you tell me when I ask you over to dinner 'hey can you make chicken' and I say yes. Maybe I say no, and suggest you cook dinner. Maybe we just don't do dinner.
But if you come to my house and tell me what to make when you get there? Yeah, that's 'exerting your will'.
Careful Toz, you are starting to sound like me...:)
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@Arch Rebel
Do you play any other RPG's? Ones that don't use rolling methods, like Shadowrun?
Or would you refuse to play in a system where stat rolling is not an option?
just curious if this though process extends to other games or just Pathfinder/d20...
I never came across one that is built the way d20 PB has evolved where you are very limited compared to what you used to have. Is it GURPs where everything was purchased like MnM? I didn't have a problem b/c you had enough points to for go character features or powers to even out the character how you saw them.
I would try any game system but if I felt like I couldn't conceive the character I want, I wouldn't keep playing with it.
The thing that is so different about PB in D20 is that its limited to stats, and came up after the system was set, so it's not a part of the core mechanic, or set rules, it's just a popular rule variant, and it's a rule variant that excludes players and possible character types that you used to sometimes get.
I think something I am seeing, is PB advocates see the stats as bonuses to rolls, me and other rollers see the stats as character personality, so it's very limiting to us if how we want to RP a character is curbed by something other than an unbiased mechanic (dice rolling).
For ex. if I have less than an 11 int, I am not using strategy and great tactics in combat, I am attacking whatever seems the most threatening to me.
If I have less than an 11 wis I am not helping with puzzles, I have no idea about possible plots, I can be lead astay easily
if I have less than an 11 CHA it affects my characters cool factor, I curb how flashy my actions are, and I may have an opinion about the direction of the party but it's ill informed, and not presented in a way that has any chance of being convincing.
Well actually, stats do give bonuses to stat rolls so I'm not sure what to say about that...
But to imply that PB people are less inclined to "roleplay" is absurd.
Is my character a collection of stats, feats, weapons and special abilities? Yes. But he is also so much more than that. He (or she) is a living being with hopes and dreams, talents, flaws and a distinct personality. But much (not all) of that is influenced by his stats and abilities.
I consider myself an excellent roleplayer and I have been told I am an outstanding DM. If you are telling me that you could not have fun in my game because I use the PB method, then you seriously need to reconsider your argument...
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We go out to dinner, and I choose for myself to order fish, but b/c you don't like the smell of fish I'm forcing my way on you? But if you tell me I have to order steak or chx b/c that's what you can tolerate you're not forcing anything on me? Telling someone what to do is controlling, telling someone what you are doing does not compare.
I am sorry you feel like a loser in life, and need to control a game to feel better about yourself, but being intolerant and anti social is not going to fix your problems.
We are going out to dinner. All of us want to have Pizza. It is decided we are having Pizza and everyone is pleased. Except you. You demand we get Indian food. Because that is what you want, and screw everyone else.
Again, sounds awesome.
I'm sorry you think the world revolves around meeting your needs.
I am sorry you feel like a loser in life, and need to control a game to feel better about yourself, but being intolerant and anti social is not going to fix your problems.
On the upside, I can now cite you when someone says "No one is that entitled"
So thanks!
What did I just say! :)
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This thread is making me hungry. I just cant decide what to get on my pizza. Thankfully I can roll for that...
I prefer the point buy for toppings. It's a pizza creation; if I roll poorly, I am stuck with it. It's not like you can roll up a new pizza.
Character Creation requires too much effort and is too permanent. At that point, I like it to be my character. It's not mine if I roll dice, it's from the heart of the dice that the character exists. Now if characters were quick to make and expendable, I would be perfectly happy to roll dice for their creation.
Dang. I was hoping the next post would have been about how Zenlike and I were both wrong, and having pre-generated pizza designs would be the way to go.
Dang. I was hoping the next post would have been about how Zenlike and I were both wrong, and having pre-generated pizza designs would be the way to go.
Well it's true. That's why you can get such a great deal on them. Besides, pizzas are too short lived to spend deciding on the right amount of points to spend on which toppings or mourning over the unfortunate roll of topping that your allergic to.
Rebel:
The most important rule of this forum is to not be a jerk. The rule is located just below where you type in new posts.
We want to keep these forums friendly. Ceritose and I may not get along, but neither of us want to see verbal abuse in these forums. Please refrain from such language in the future.