Do you play any other RPG's? Ones that don't use rolling methods, like Shadowrun?
Or would you refuse to play in a system where stat rolling is not an option?
just curious if this though process extends to other games or just Pathfinder/d20...
I never came across one that is built the way d20 PB has evolved where you are very limited compared to what you used to have. Is it GURPs where everything was purchased like MnM? I didn't have a problem b/c you had enough points to for go character features or powers to even out the character how you saw them.
I would try any game system but if I felt like I couldn't conceive the character I want, I wouldn't keep playing with it.
The thing that is so different about PB in D20 is that its limited to stats, and came up after the system was set, so it's not a part of the core mechanic, or set rules, it's just a popular rule variant, and it's a rule variant that excludes players and possible character types that you used to sometimes get.
I think something I am seeing, is PB advocates see the stats as bonuses to rolls, me and other rollers see the stats as character personality, so it's very limiting to us if how we want to RP a character is curbed by something other than an unbiased mechanic (dice rolling).
For ex. if I have less than an 11 int, I am not using strategy and great tactics in combat, I am attacking whatever seems the most threatening to me.
If I have less than an 11 wis I am not helping with puzzles, I have no idea about possible plots, I can be lead astay easily
if I have less than an 11 CHA it affects my characters cool factor, I curb how flashy my actions are, and I may have an opinion about the direction of the party but it's ill informed, and not presented in a way that has any chance of being convincing.
This whole discussion is crazy to me. I'm not even sure I'm playing the same game as you Rebel Arch.
If you have characters in your game with stats in the 30's and made up abilities that allow a PC to teleport at will when attacked then what exactly is the point of even rolling stats? You have to understand how silly this sounds to many people that actually use the rulebook for rules.
You say you'd be proud of rolling a bunch of poor stats just because you ROLLED them?
So if I ran a 30 point buy game and you asked to roll and came up with 13,12,10,10,8,8 or some other poor array you would just go with it? Seems a bit like going down with the ship to me...
Anyway, just my 2 cents...
But who decides what a fair and adequate PB limit is? If some want high, and some want low, some players will get exactly what they want, while others don't get what they want? Is that fair just b/c you all have the same? If I wanted 15 PB and you wanted 30 PB, do we average them? Now neither is getting the level we wanted. The only completely unbiased and fair arrangement I know of is to roll.
It boils down to what you want to be the arbiter, a DM, popular opinion, or unbiased, unthinking dice? I'm only comfortable w/ dice for myself, I never tell other ppl what they can use. I take offense to other ppl telling me what I can use.
About my game, there rarely is a roll against that guy. I don't know what it is, I don't know if it's a part of the rules or not, it's between the DM and that character, and it has never hurt my experience. Why should it sound silly? Everyone is having fun. Why does it sound normal, and prop worthy for him to sit at a table and be miserable so other ppl can derive their fun from how their characters compare?
Has anyone here played Rifts? Your minds would explode. Some lvl 1 characters have a 100x more HPs than others, some weapons deal 4d6 while others deal 4d6x100. It's the best game system I have ever seen though, and ppl run very successful games no problem.
You're not going out to dinner, you're coming over to my house for dinner and telling me when you get there you don't want the steak I bought, you want chicken.
Maybe you tell me when I ask you over to dinner 'hey can you make chicken' and I say yes. Maybe I say no, and suggest you cook dinner. Maybe we just don't do dinner.
But if you come to my house and tell me what to make when you get there? Yeah, that's 'exerting your will'.
When you put it like this, I understand your side, but we have no more need to debate between us, b/c I don't see it like the DMs game, and never will. I see it like a dinner party and you're telling the ppl who brought something you don't like to leave. Which I guess you will never see it like that.
In all seriousness Rebel Arch, how are you going to go about challenging both a character with all 18s the decides to play a Battle Oracle using advice from optimization guides, and a guy who rolls for stats and winds up with the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and decides to play a Monk who has taken the vow of poverty and give away all his worldly possessions who are in the same party without metagaming the hell out of things as a GM?
I had to run before and cut it short, the last thing I was going to say is, I'm not a play to beat the party DM. I try to give everyone what they want, and I have never found it to hard to do that. Your oracle wants to think they are the most gifted hero ever, well someone has to be, why not you, I can easily let you experience that while the other players get what they want.
I like low fantasy, low magic, low level play, slow xp progression and find a lot of spells goofy, does that mean the wizard in my group should have a limited spell list? Hell no. No one remembers that +37 you added to a roll, they remember the scene, the time you beheaded a dragon, or poke someone in the eye and got a critical, bull rushed a minotaur off a mountain. Just give each player the scenes they want.
So I don't like big numbers or high fantasy, what that really boils down to is I want my attack to be more than I roll a 22 so lets make this combat more descriptive, or I want my magic item to be special so give me a role play scene when I find it and don't just give stats.
The guy next to me currently has stats in the 30s and can't be hit, he literally has something that makes him instantaneously teleport if he is attacked. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't even affect me b/c I'm playing my character and having the moments I like. It doesn't bother the current DM, he's not trying to beat him, he's telling a story with him, who cares if that's the type of character that guy wants? I'm having fun, he should get to have fun too, and I don't see how b/c a different thing is fun for him it disrupts me? His stats aren't even that important outside of how he feels about his character, b/c we might have one combat encounter a session.
In all seriousness Rebel Arch, how are you going to go about challenging both a character with all 18s the decides to play a Battle Oracle using advice from optimization guides, and a guy who rolls for stats and winds up with the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and decides to play a Monk who has taken the vow of poverty and give away all his worldly possessions who are in the same party without metagaming the hell out of things as a GM?
My group is role players, so someone might have phobias or vices that are much more challenging then any dice advantage can be, but let's say the person is just totally different from the group not only do they want all 18s but aren't interested in RP, you can design encounters for that.
I'm not familiar with the battle oracle, but it's a spontaneous caster that uses CHA right? So it's not really any more capable than an optimized PB build that got an 18 CHA. What extra does it have? Maybe another +2 or 3 to AC and saves?
1) We like skill challenges, so let's do a foot chase, the Monk is faster and more likely to catch the bad guy. Let's make it important, it was a thief still a crystal vile that hold's the princess' soul. Boom monk just saved the day!
2) In combat, use a spacious area, a BBEG w/ multiple minions that skirmish, the monk's mobility would shine. The Oracle can feel great he's taking on the big bad guy. The monk is probably happy he is getting the chance to bounce around the field. Say they don't pick the targets you expected? They both struggle through, taking a lot of damage maybe? Then as a healer they didn't do to well and shine too much.
3) My preferred option, try and involve them in the story and challenge them with options that are in conflict with their alignment. Would that affect an oracles' domains? Spellcasting?
I'm ok with being limited by circumstance or achievement, (the dice are a blind judge), I will never accept being limited by the collective opinion of ppl who agree I shouldn't want what I want and will be fine with less.
You can want all you want. You just can't always GET what you want.
Perfectly acceptable. I even said that in my post. But I should get to try, equal opportunity, is the ultimate fairness.
What is wrong with builds? If I like builds please don't bash them. I can roleplay however and whatever I like same as any of you. What this thread lacks and will lack until shut down, is definitive proof either way that one method is superior to another. I've created characters hundreds of ways,some I liked some I did not but guess what...none of them were wrong.
Nothing is wrong with that if that what you like to play. You can play the character you want, made the way you want in my game. If you are using PB, can I make my rolled character in your game? That's the issue, one way is telling players you can't do what's fun to you, that's the only problem with it.
I don't know why that is hard to grasp. It's the simplest courtesy in the world, don't exert your will on other ppl!
PBS leads to a lot of cookie cutter builds, I'm sorry, but it just does. Why does the term Big Dumb Fighter even exist at all? Because most of the time, fighter classes dump their INT.
Point buy doesn't lead to it. It facilitates it. The difference being that it is the players that make the cookie cutter builds, not the stat gen method. You can make a cookie cutter build with rolled stats. The numbers won't be exactly the same, but they will follow the same pattern.
I almost agree with you! It always depends on the player, but it appears players who like that gravitate towards PB. Builds are more common among PB while characters are more popular among rolling.
But if I roll well enough to give my Wizard a 12 CHA to fashion him like a magician, I don't see how I'm hurting other players, or making the Wizard harder to challenge. Anybody built like a face is going to be better in that role, and my CHA is just to give me the flavor and freedom to play him how I pictured. And if there is no face, I just helped the party out.
You can easily do that with point buy too. The only way that wouldn't work with point buy is if you literally want your character to be the very best in that role in addition to your regular role.
Yes I could, but it's not fun to me.
I was disputing the idea that higher total stat bonus, which isn't likely, but possible with rolling, doesn't break CR system.
He is saying at his game, you have to PB or don't play. At my game you can create YOUR character however you like, it's YOURS. So which style is open to all players. I don't understand how ppl talk about fairness, but worry about other people so much. Why is it right to tell other ppl how to play, but not right to let ppl play how they want?
I'm an architect, I'm opening my own firm in the next 5 years, if I succeed I will do much better than most ppl, but if I fail I'll lose, my savings, if I get sued and go bankrupt I'll loose my house, my retirement, just about everything, but it's not fair that if I succeed I would have more than others? People wonder what's wrong with our generation, it's that we can't even play a fake game w/o concerning ourselves with what other ppl have and what they're allowed to do.
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with most of your argument. My company has actually engaged in workshops and training sessions for its management to address the issues that are arising with the introduction of "Generation Y" into the work force. And there is some truth to the point you are making. There is a pervasive mentality of "Everybody gets a trophy just for showing up!"
That said... And at the risk of completely contradicting my implied point... The game is about a group of heroes. They're never going to be equal, no matter what point-system you use, either because the classes are not 100% balanced, or because the players have different levels of system-mastery, or simply luck of the draw with item-drops, etc., etc., etc. But, everyone should feel like part of the heroism, in the game. Let me just stress the in the game part of that statement.
I am perfectly willing to play bad stats. I would not be happy to play the "also-ran" character, though.
I agree with this, but don't think it has to do with stat generation. The rogue, wizard, or clerics moments to shine shouldn't be affected by how weak or strong the fighter is. It's up to the players RP ability to add flavor to their actions, and a good DM giving everyone challenges designed for them. I think courtesy between the players is about not stepping on the toes of another role, ie. if there is a rogue in the group don't cast knock.
But if I roll well enough to give my Wizard a 12 CHA to fashion him like a magician, I don't see how I'm hurting other players, or making the Wizard harder to challenge. Anybody built like a face is going to be better in that role, and my CHA is just to give me the flavor and freedom to play him how I pictured. And if there is no face, I just helped the party out.
I also don't agree with the CR argument. So my Wizard now has a total of +10 instead of +8, if they are coming from secondary stats that don't affect his class abilities, he is no less challenged, or no more likely to defeat them.
aureate has the best answer. If we're working sales together and you see I fail to close you can make your attempt, but the NPC might be harder to convince now. The PC should get a chance if they have something to say, just make the DC+2
I stated earlier in my group, we roll, but if someone likes to use an array then are welcome to. PB isn't threatening to us, the way dice rolling is threatening to PB. And that's a terrible mindset for a DM. It's not your story, it's the groups. Everyone should be accommodate to get what they want from the game. The PnP community is dwindling, finding a different group isn't as easy as it once was, maybe if less ppl thought like that (take a hike if you like something different) we would have more players, more games, cheaper products.
I'm completely happy with you doing whatever you want, in your game
what does that imply? you can play like that when not playing with me is how I read. PB isn't wrong, but telling ppl how to play is the only wrong way to play, which PB is assuming dice rolling is wrong by disallowing it. I would have no problem w/ PB ppl could just say I prefer it for myself, so I'm going to use it for ME, and not concern themselves with how someone else prefers to generate a character.
He is saying at his game, you have to PB or don't play. At my game you can create YOUR character however you like, it's YOURS. So which style is open to all players. I don't understand how ppl talk about fairness, but worry about other people so much. Why is it right to tell other ppl how to play, but not right to let ppl play how they want?
I'm an architect, I'm opening my own firm in the next 5 years, if I succeed I will do much better than most ppl, but if I fail I'll lose, my savings, if I get sued and go bankrupt I'll loose my house, my retirement, just about everything, but it's not fair that if I succeed I would have more than others? People wonder what's wrong with our generation, it's that we can't even play a fake game w/o concerning ourselves with what other ppl have and what they're allowed to do.
There is a DM that has a youtube channel I watch. I disagree with what he says about dice rolling, but he sounds like an awesome DM and actually house rules a PB system where you roll 7d4 to see how many points you get. Now that I would be happy to go along with. How do the PBers feel about that?
Trio- unless I put your name in my post, I don't mean a question to be directed at a specific to be directed at a specific person. I'm talking to the community that likes PB so much as to exclude dice rollers. The rest of this is directed at anyone.
PBers who won't let players who like to roll stats create their way, why is it more wrong for rollers to play the way they want, than it is for you to tell other players how to play?
The only thing I hear from both sides is that players want to create the character they want, but on the rollers side they seem more accepting of whichever way that is, while PBers say it has to be PB in my game, why is that?
Why do you even know what the other players stats are? I have 5 ppl at my current table, I only know the stats of the guy who sits next to me. Why pay so much attention to other players characters?
But I thought PB was better? That it gives the play more control to make the character they want? Makes more interesting and fun characters to play? And means no one character feels useless?
Ok, that works for you to not have a roll affect your whole game, I'm telling you that's great in any of my games you're allowed to do that, but that risk for the opportunity appeals to me and a lot of other players, so why can't we roll our stats in your PB game? How come the way that works for you must be dictated to other players?
Tri0- relying on magic items is not something we do in our games. You can't go to the mall of magic and pick out what you want. Why is my dice rolling super powered? But your magic items aren't?
I also didn't get what you were saying when you quoted me? Examples of ppl saying what?
I'm still waiting to hear why I can't roll stats in a PB game?
Point of interest too, I don't know if this goes for every PB game but, the few I have been in, were played like a miniatures game with more flavor, and was very video game like, completely based on encounters and linear direction, all my groups that are dice rollers are RPers. So why is there a stigma about dice rollers being power gamers?
OMG I dont have all 18's!! I used to play this way and it SUCKED. Try a real character and keep a 15 point buy character alive. That's a challenge I like and its fun too. Your character actually has a bit of fear instead of the god complex all 18 stat characters have.
I thought most ppl who like PB like it so no character has stats far below anyone else, ie rolled poorly. So why do you jump to the conclusion that rolling will give you 18s? I can't even remember the last time I had an 18. I bet you will see more min/maxed 18s at a PB table then you will see a rolled 18 at the games I play at.
To everyone else, when you ignore my points and questions to attack straw men it shows how weak your position is. You are barking up the wrong tree with your insinuations. My group is an RP group. We go whole sessions w/o combat, and likely have one short combat if there is one. I can lay the same argument that we must not RP well if all these characters are the same b/c of the stats, down against your claims that all rolled characters are super powered game breakers with now flaws and boring to play. You don't need dice to be terrified of heights, or fire, or claustraphobic, or insane, or a coward, or ect. But you do need INT to explain being a master strategist, or WIS to explain solving the puzzles.
Yes I agree this is an RP game but you miss my point that the mechanic is a dice game, dice decide if our play is successful, if you have a good DM you will get bonuses to rolls based on great RP, but the decide still decide.
I called it out on the ranger b/c it's not a stat akin to his primary features, when you are so worried about balance and CRs, boosting secondary stats is going to lower your power lvl in comparison to the fighter or wizard who keeps bumping their primary stats.
You are so caught up in perceived balance between power, that you totally miss the reality of how it functions. Who cares if the fighter who is great at physical combat but is charismatic, it doesn't make him any better at his role in the party. Or wizard that's can carry his own rucksack? Yet if you have limited points, that generalist character or MAD class, is weaker at his role than the specialized characters. His bonuses might add up the same but his effectiveness does not, what do you say about that?
Again I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying your style isn't good enough to replace all other styles and would like to know why it can't accommodate other styles? Why can't players choose how to make their character? Again if point buy is so superior, why is it afraid of dice rollers?
Biggest problem w/ PB is this is a dice game. The whole mechanic of the game is based around the sanctity of dice rolls, but that mechanic isn't good enough to trust to character creation? So the mechanics aren't sound enough for the very first thing you do?
Ppl that like PB, use the game mechanics as law and put a lot of faith into CR system. They worry about being balanced w/ the books, the monsters of their CR, and other players. There is nothing wrong w/ that play style, but many of us don't play like that at all and just use the books for quick stats. Just admit PB is good for the way you like to play, but stop acting like dice rollers are trying to break the game and shouldn't be allowed their preferred method.
The reason I like rolling dice, it's exciting, it's the opportunity at greatness. It used to be you couldn't be the ranger unless you rolled great. This didn't bother ppl b/c everyone had that opportunity, and it was balanced and fair b/c you might roll poorly. No one begrudged the guy with 3 16s who can make any character he wants b/c that might have been 3 6s. When I roll I don't always get what I want and have to rethink a character but the stats always feel like MINE. I took the chance I rolled the dice I got them. PB would be taking that opportunity away from me and just handing me something, I feel cheated. Some ppl roll poorly in combat while others roll great, how would you feel about a similar system for combat to spend points to get to hit, or how do you feel at the table when you do something and the DM doesn't even let you get a roll to see if you succeed? You feel cheated.
If PB is superior, why can't rollers roll their stats? They are trading away the safety of being like everyone else, for a chance to be better but is balanced by a higher chance of being lower.
It makes it wrong to me, when a way is dictated. In my game a player can use an elite array if they want, and no one cares, it doesn't mess with our balance and we don't care what other players stats are.
The guy next to me in our current campaign has all stats in 30s and is a wizard that can melee attack for 50pts. I don't know how or why, and I really don't care, b/c 1) when he's done that it really helps the party 2)I'm not a t%%+ who feels inferior to fake characters in a fantasy game 3)I have the character I want to play.
I'm going to guess most would say you can't roll dice in a PB game b/c it throws off balance. The system that can't accommodate the other is wrong. You know the biggest difference between communism and capitalism that never gets brought up? In a capitalist society I can buy land and start a commune and live the way I see fit, in a communist society I can't buy land and start a free market factory.
The wizard is predictable, int highest to accomplish his class features, then his left over points go into the stats that bump his saves. Sure you can rp that character, my point is so is everyone else that is playing a PB wizard. What if you wanted to be a magician oozing charisma?
The ranger can't cast his 4th lvl spells, and what if you envisioned him as an expert tactician or a prince bread and raised for leadership but banished from his home? Your ranger looks exactly like every other ranger every other PB game is running, again you can RP that and be the most descriptive guy at the table, but it's going to be the Tarantino version of a B movie.
Advocates of PB, please make me a wizard (15pt buy) as you would if you were going to play the character.
Then please make me a ranger (15pt buy) that is built for his role as a combatant, can utilize all his class features like 4th lvl spells, and isn't stupid or a social misfit that you explain by him being a recluse that has left society behind.
Plot:battle happens, survivors escape with intel, their important information is intercepted by an ally, they bring information back to the base, but it's been destroyed, and they are captured by the enemy, they eventually escape but lead the enemy to the rest of their force and must stop them before their cause is oblittered.
yawn!
Story: A massive goliath space ship boards a david size ship, but two odd couple droids escape with plans to the enemies super weapon, the droids are brought to mysterious general by a naive farm boy in love with a princess, and they enlist the help of a scoundrel who they never really know can be trusted to return the intel, but find their destination planet destroyed and get sucked into a levithan capable of blowing up planets, and you get the rest.
Awesome! Star Wars!
In RPG this means description and flavor over out of game mechanics.
You never fight CR 1/2 monster, you are ambushed by mischeivious starving Goblins, who want nothing more than to feast on your party!
I'm attacking I roll a 7 and miss, let me see what other actions I can do on this list of actions. Boring! Your turns over. Instead, I'm so furious that whelp just swung at my pretty face, in a frenzy I hurl him over my head and power bomb him into the dust. That was awesome! I can't wait till your next turn!
You find a +1 holy axiomatic sword. Lame! Losing this piece of stats as soon as I find a +5 Vorpal sword.
You find "Demon Warden" a seven foot warhammer, with a haft that looks like petrified wood but is cool and slick like metal, and a hammerhead of a brilliant blue gem shaped on the striking side, and jagged on the back side, when you wield it you feel like you could stand down a demon on your own. F-ing sweet I'm never letting this weapon go!
Hey OP, welcome to the game, thanks for checking it out, the community seriously needs more players so I hope you don't get put off by the experience. Ignore the heat you are getting from some of the posters, some people have trouble socializing and sharing their toys, but your DM sounds bad and isn't typical of what a game experience is like.
You can ignore the labeling too. Most DMs that use min/max-er are min/max-er DMs (max amount of challenge for minimum thought). The problem w/ min/max isn't powerful characters but cookie cutter ones, that's not your fault that's just a part of the system since adopting point buy, but it's something you can keep in mind for future characters if you start getting bored.
This is a game, the only thing you are supposed to do is have fun. You should not impede other player's fun but everyone should have reasonable limits on that. A player is not impeding someone else's fun if their character is more optimized or killed the Big Bad first, that other player complaining is just a spoiled brat. You are impeding if you are stepping on the toes of another character role, ie. stop using knock spells if you have a rogue.
Most ppl that pay too much attention to another character is b/c they want to be the star at the table, but won't admit it so they throw out labels or dress up their argument to look like something else.
A DM doing it might as well just play the game himself b/c he sees it as his game/his story, and isn't willing to do what a good group does, by making room and challenge for everyone.
A weakness should not be exploited every encounter, a weakness should not be exploited in the boss encounter of every session. Optimized monsters makes players optimize their characters b/c no one wants to be useless. Most DM's that say "playing to win" are playing for you to lose.
A game needs to be tolerant of everyone or it should be filled w/NPCs. Just b/c I think fly, teleport, summons, transmutations, and other high fantasy elements are stupid and goofy doesn't mean the wizard next to me should have a limited spell list. Your DM is failing hard.
There are lots of play styles, some play it like a miniatures game, some do dungeon crawls every time, my group RPs so much we might not have a combat in a 6 hour session, you might enjoy a play style different from the group you joined but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to accomodate you especially as a new player.
It's ok if you don't have a back story, but you need an idea of who your character is, and be very descriptive about his actions and what he says in character, that's active story telling which is more powerful than passive storytelling which is what a back story would be. Think about movies do you get a page description of who Indiana Jones, John McClane, or Darth Vader are? No you come in on them in action, their actions, stay consistent, and you get a feel for who they are.
Descriptive actions tell your story, improve the game, and if you have a good DM reward the party. When facing down a corrupted demigod with a vorpal weapon who just beheaded a party member, my humble cleric shouted in a deep commanding voice he hadn't use the whole campaign, "by Torag I demand you drop that abomination and soil your lineage no more" and cast burning disarm, my DM goes that was awesome +10 DC, party disarms a Demi God with a lvl 1 spell b/c it was a great moment. That's what good DMing is like. Right now our entire party has the weapons and armor of our choice, but they weren't just picked out the book, we each RPd to get them, my Cleric discovered a temple built by my god and reforged the gods weapon at the alter, depending on how successful our RP, we got an enhancement cap to chose what the qualities were. That's great DMing, a story is being told in an active way, and it's the story EVERY player wants to play.
To successfully join a group, b/c PnP games have some players that are anti social or territorial, you should make a support character which you did, then you should make him all about buffing and debuffing, it's very funny no one get's in a pissing contest over shutting the BBEG for 2 turns, but as soon as you pop off 45 damage ppl are going to get a complex, keep your head down and don't steer the party at all, when you do have to act be descriptive, then slowly open up your play after a few sessions. If you show up like Trunks and outshine the party some ppl take it to seriously and get apprehensive, but if you're Gohan who comes from the back to save the day when it was really needed, ppl get behind you.
In the wrestling world called kayfabe, like a gamer saying in character, they are not performers but combatants, albeit flashy ones whose morale comes from a crowd, so a bard would be wrong for it.
One more thing, just talk to your DM about mildly altering some affects, but it's mostly in the flavor text of how you describe what your character's action is that will make this successful.
Hammerstein grabs the orc by the back of the head and slams an over hand elbow to his head (stunning fist which sets him up to be grappled)
HS pulls him in tight with a collar tie (grapple)
HS throws his head down grabs him around the waist heaves him above his head and throws him to the ground like a powerbomb (slam)
HS takes running charge at the wizard hurls his arm across his chest beating him like a club (charge)
HS sees the bandit's attack jumps above it lunges out with his legs to close the distance and connects with a dropkick to the face (AoO)
There is rarely a need for homebrew, just change the descriptions
Alright, so I know the idea of a masked Mexican wrestler in a Pathfinder game
you don't even need the rest of that sentence. this is awesome! SI, SI, Si!
My favorite character ever is Hammerstein! A barbarian/monk who wrestled with power slams and elbow drops, his philosophy why use a weapon when you can hit with the Earth? His goal show all the feeble martial types how pathetic their style was compared to Pro Wrestling. He had a charisma of 16 and trashed talked every opponent.
My group never found it silly, and I got copious amounts of XP for my RP.
The campaing: Ancient greece pantheon, the PF gods are Titans, pandora's box has been taken to the material plane causing a world wound style rift, a demon army is marching towards the rift, the party has gone to Hades to close the rift.
My Dwarf Cleric of Torag(archon and defense)is Grunyk w/o Name. He was an orphan adopted by the church, humble, naive, and pure; he never left the mountain till he set off for hades and had a panic attack when he first realized the party was out of the mountain.
He is a true believer, which has made him ferocious and commanding in the underworld, is slowly converting the whole party to his god, and has collected a ton of faith points.
Notable moments -
used a burning disarm to force a demigod to drop a vorpal weapon that just beheaded an ally!
got the party past cerberus with prepared research into religion
resisted a deal with a beautiful demon that would give him 9 extra spells a day
scared the s$%@ out of a fallen angel vampire when he tried to baptize him in the middle of combat, this lead to an internal struggle with the angel vampire that kept fighting us, but started letting us touch him with heals! and swore to release his spirit from the underworld before I leave
has a prequel style 3P0 warforged that is slowly improving
I want feats for lvl 5 - 12 that make sense with the character, but still are useful with the campaign. For ex, I originally thought he would summon archons and angels and would take summon feats, but our summons are not working, and this character is done when we get out of the underworld. Some stuff was to integral to his character like crafting feats (he is finishing the first ever warforged that was started by his god) even though I can't craft in the underworld.
Also if you have any ideas for spells and how to use them that match this flavor I would like to hear those too. His priorities 1)stop the BBEG from acting 2)Buff the party 3)debuff the enemy 4)if no better options with spells attack w/ weapon
I was asking b/c I think where you put the average person might have a lot to do w/ how you judge ability stats. I see them as the average so when I see a teacher who's job is to communicate ideas, I don't think oh that's a 10 for a normal person doing a normal thing. I think wow they are a good communicator they must be a 12-14, then if I see a lawyer I think wow that guy must be a great communicator he must be a 16.
personally, I cannot stand the point buy system. It encourages, nay, mandates min-maxing, and when you turn it into strictly a numbers game, it becomes less fun imo. Playing a melee character usually forces you to dump INT or WIS and that makes me sad, because I like playing melee characters with high INTs for more varied skills that I can offer my party. "But, it's a 20-point buy and we need someone who can swing a damn sword, so no INT for you!!!!"- says the rest of my party.
thank you this exactly! times a million. it one of the worst things to ever happen to the game, and build optimizers benefit the most, as it calls for the same stale, dried up, cliche, unoriginal no RP character to be made again and again.
Or all those things are doable by a character with the stats I came up with and up to 6 class levels and the HP/skill points/feats/BAB that follow therefrom. I would not...
I think we are going to end up arguing over semantics about what a score means to us.
ie. if I want to think of my character as strong he needs to have a 16 v you might say an 11 or 12.
That being said I think there is evidence in the rule his INT is higher given how many languages he knows. And I do think you're not giving him credit for being a magnetic leader, and charming women, look at how the girls in the movie (not the celebrity) fawn over him.
Do you consider ppl in unskilled/menial labor work average or below average?
Now the fun part debating Indy's stats! If it was another system I would agree about the skills, but PF/DND isn't really the type of game where skills improve your ability to do encounter based things the way a Fallout or Oblivion would.
Indy
STR 15 - all around physical guy, throws a guy over the dashboard, out a truck, across the hood with one arm and shot in it!, bashes in a marble library floor with a essentially a candlebra, pushes a 10 ton Egyptian statue over, holds onto a submarine navigating through the Ocean for hours
Dex 16 - going off my rule before, is he more or less dexterous than strong, jumps horses, swings on whips, finds and bypasses traps, scales cars, great shot, jumps mining carts, dodges boulders!
Con 18 - takes some of the best beatings in fiction and keeps going, shot, punched out, ran under a truck, no sleep, no food, no water in the desert, dragged by tank and army truck, survives in hospitable terrain, survived nuclear blast!
Int 17 - Doctor, professor, has all kinds of skills, knows the most about obscure things ppl bring to him, quotes books no one has ever heard off, has pretty much every knowledge skill covered, speaks at least 5 languages from what we see in the movies, outsmarts everyone except for Belloch!
WIS 16 - solves age old mysteries, figures out every puzzle that gets other explorers killed, respects history and knows enough to treat relics properly, resists looking the ark! that Will save has to be incredible!
CHA 17 - He's Harrison Ford! Our grandmother's, mothers, wives, and probably in the future our daughters all want him, he is witty, convincing, ridiculous charm, and has multiple followers on his adventures, he is so charming that even when Sean Connery was in his group he was still the face!
He is either incredible or rolls nothing but 20s!
edit: when I mentioned about STR 14 average for lifters, it was in reply to not many in our hobby being around that, since if you work out that's not much weight, even if you exercise a little you should be at an 11 or 12 according to the heavy load chart.
If it's in character I think those personalities are great for the game. OoC it's bad news.
When it's done in character (especially if the payers personality differs from the character and it's not just the players personality in ever character they make) it's good fun, realistic, and fluid RP, even for a combat heavy group.
I like team work a lot, and my character would never get the MVP, since I tend towards Buff Cleric or Control Wizard, but I don't like when parties meta game together and build there characters around each other, like the characters aren't real ppl in the game world with own wants, goals, advancement.
Groups need to be better at getting everything in that all the players like. It's a problem I've seen in the last few years, I think b/c less ppl are playing different types of players are forming groups just to get to play.
My group is competitive, but don't focus on combat much. Its an odd mix.
I agree with OP, my group still does 4d6 drop lowest, and we are low fantasy, don't like crazy magic + items, RPers. Not only is the point buy boring, and a perversion of the classic idea of playing a dice game with random elements (you roll well, you get something good, rolled great stats, now you can be the ranger!), it invites a lot more problems than it sets out to fix.
1) A 20 pt buy character is underwhelming,and wouldn't be the guy ppl go to, to get things done. Everything he might set out to do will get done by some one better.
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That lich that's threatening the kingdom, guess what somewhere out there, there is a fighter that isn't dumb and crass, there's a wizard that can carry his own ruck sack, and a rogue that won't pass out at the sight of blood, they'll take care of it, you better stay home chump.
Gonna go off and steal that dragons treasure you heard of? They already got it. They're capable of doing more for people, so they have better resources, and are a more active part of the world, they heard about it and got all the information before you even heard the rumor, in fact you only heard the rumor b/c ppl had been talking about since that better party started asking questions.
2)It's artificial and tries to force weaknesses that don't exist so you get stereotypical character after cliche character. it's not the way we work so it severely hurts RP. And our weakness is we're mortal; our strengths can help us last longer but they can't beat that. Good genes are good genes.
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That big strong guy is probably pretty fast and agile too. Brock Lesnar is probably not as fast as Michael Vick and vice versa, but he is hell of a lot faster than the above average guy, and Vick is stronger than the average. And what do most cultures find attractive? Physically fit bodies, there goes CHA too. All that hard working out means you're pretty conditioned and must have endurance so there's a high CON. Don't exclude INT though, b/c while NFL stars may not do to well on tests, in life higher IQ ppl tend to be more physically fit and keep in better health than average IQs.
I know everyone isn't a known athlete, and I'm not arguing PCs should be celebrity top 1% all the time, but while you might have a big cumbersome strongman competitor with an 18 STR and 10 DEX that's not typical. Most ppl that are above average tend to be above average in everything. Their stats all probably fall between 12 and 16. And this does not make a super human, (that's stats above 20) it makes a test pilot, a special forces soldier, an FBI agent, a field scientist.
3)It invites min/max - ing and optimization. Ppl didn't sit around figuring out how to squeeze economy out of their build, and dumping stats to create the same fighter/ranger/wizard/rogue ect. over and over again, b/c if I don't play a dumb fighter he won't have enough STR to do what he's supposed to do, before point buy. We rolled dice (which is the mechanic the game is built around) and had characters that where unique and how we pictured them in our head.
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It proposes the game is flawed. The game mechanic is rolling dice, but the very first thing you do in the game can't be handled with dice? Dice is too random to base a functioning game around?
Most ppl assume point buy is so the characters are equal to each other, but it's not. It's there for the game designer, so they can assume what a party will like when they set challenge ratings and design modules. A party with a few natural 18s that got bumped my racial score has a lot of extra spells and hit points, or 6s has a lot less.
This means just like the characters, the campaigns are more generic, more the same, stale. It's not an RP anymore it's a miniatures game.
4) You can't make Indiana Jones! Most of us have fave characters and archetypes we day dream about and build from. Most of these are well beyond the 20 pt buy range.
5) Your group probably couldn't even make yourselves with a 20 pt buy. Seriously, there's a real simple way to try it. You should, it will open your eyes a lot.
Here's how to do it:
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Start with your STR since it's the only quantifiable stat given (as per load and lifting table) it says what you can lift over your head = your max load and what you can lift off the ground = 2x max load. From there compare what you know about yourself to that Attribute score, are you more or less dexterous, more or less hardy, more or less intelligent,ect.
For example:
My STR is 14 according to the rule book
DEX 14 - I'm a lot faster than strong, w/ good coordination + percision, I can roll and tumble well, but I'm not doing any flips or cart wheels, so I'll just keep it = STR
INT 16 - if you have taken an IQ test this one is less subjective like str, I score in the gifted but miss Genius, so I miss the top 2% (an 18) but am in the top 10%
WIS 13 - I score high in openness, thinking and perceiving, and logic, but I'm young and haven't had much opportunity for experience
CHA 15 - I was an SGA officer in college, gotten professional acting roles, done paid stand up, and my general personality is a face
CON 16 - most ppl know me as intelligent or charming, but I know grit and endurance is my strongest attribute
I bet most ppl would be in the same range, which means our fav fantasy characters would be extraordinary. I did this with my group a few years ago, it was fun, and we all helped eachother, pointing out what other ppl notice most and judging where our examples would rate us
Very general, just what 1st, 2nd, 3rd lvl spells, can you use at later lvls so these aren't dead spell slots? The biggest thing I notice is the DCs if I'm now lvl 14 monsters don't even need to roll a 5 to save against my 1st lvl spells. Second the buff spells are hardly worth the turn spent on casting for a +1 or +2.
Class or build doesn't matter for this discussion, just what are those spell slots for, why do we keep them, what does the game creators intend us to do with them?
But if someone really wants more specifics, lets say I'm playing a 14th lvl Caster Cleric.
Very general, just what 1st, 2nd, 3rd lvl spells, can you use at later lvls so these aren't dead spell slots? The biggest thing I notice is the DCs if I'm now lvl 14 monsters don't even need to roll a 5 to save against my 1st lvl spells. Second the buff spells are hardly worth the turn spent on casting for a +1 or +2.
Class or build doesn't matter for this discussion, just what are those spell slots for, why do we keep them, what does the game creators intend us to do with them?
But if someone really wants more specifics, lets say I'm playing a 14th lvl Caster Cleric.
Very general, just what 1st, 2nd, 3rd lvl spells, can you use at later lvls so these aren't dead spell slots? The biggest thing I notice is the DCs if I'm now lvl 14 monsters don't even need to roll a 5 to save against my 1st lvl spells. Second the buff spells are hardly worth the turn spent on casting for a +1 or +2.
Class or build doesn't matter for this discussion, just what are those spell slots for, why do we keep them, what does the game creators intend us to do with them?
But if someone really wants more specifics, lets say I'm playing a 14th lvl Caster Cleric.
What are some full base attack, buffing classes or archetypes? When I say buffs I mean like the bard's Inspire Courage. I'm not really looking for spells, but I want to weigh my options.
Here's one from the Guide class, Terrain Bond can give the party a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks.
I'm going to play a wizard with a Possessed Hand. When I came up with the character concept, I had planned to take Arcane Bond ring. Then take Hand’s Autonomy
and Hand’s Detachment. I thought if I took Hand’s Detachment I would get both an Arcane Bond, and a familiar. Rereading these feats I don't think it will work that way. I think It's one or the other. Right?
Follow-up questions. Does my dominant hand need to be possessed to get a +1 to hit and damage, and my strength bonus? If the hand is not attached will I still get the +1 to hit and damage?
I'm going to start playing in a new pathfinder urban campaign. I have not played a wizard since 3.0. Please offer any advice on feats, race, and spells. I'm leaning towards Aether Elemental School and human because possessed hand has such a high feat tax. My RP day job will be that I'm a medium.
Heart of the Fields - Humans born in rural areas are used to hard labor. They gain a racial bonus equal to half their character level to any one Craft or Profession skill, and once per day they may ignore an effect that would cause them to become fatigued or exhausted. This racial trait replaces skilled.
OK, so how would this work? Once per day I end my rage then...
1) I am not fatigued, and I can rage next round.
2) I am fatigued but ignore the fatigued penalties. I can't rage for 1 minute. If I suffer the fatigued condition again I am exhausted.
I need a 25 point build 7th level 7000gp equipped character. These are the guidelines, core races, core classes (my choice), archetypes are fine, but nothing third party. I'll be joining a well structured group for one night. They have what they need already, class-wise. I just want to game with some old friends and have fun.
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These are the current classes in the group...
I placed an order on 10-02. I received an email today that reads "Order #3042202 is expected to ship from the Paizo warehouse by Friday, October 24". However, in my Order History under Shipments it reads "Package Tracking Shipped Today (package 709558) Not trackable".
I don't understand how it could take 22 days to ship my order. Why is there a huge 10 day discrepancy between the email and the order history. And if shipping cost me $13.97, why can't it be tracked?
Hey paizo, are there any plans to make more spell templates? I really want a complete matching steel set. The sets I'm referring to are radius, cone, and diagonal cone.
When playing in the Pathfinder Society can I take feats from the Cheliax companion book? I meet all the requirements for the feat, but I'm not playing a character from Cheliax. For that matter can I mix and match feats and traits from different settings, provided I meet the prerequisites?
I'm thinking about playing a kitsune archaeologist for pfs. I found a trait that would give me 3 extra bardic performances. As for feats I'm really thinking about taking lingering performance and, the magical tail feat over and over. I'd equip longsword and shield. In the end, I want a fun to play skill monkey. My fear is that this character will not be able to contribute to combats.
