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Taking 20 on a whole room takes hours, wouldnt that make the time limit tick down?I'm kind of sorry you did this. I'm afraid it's going to cause them issues if they use this with...So some GMs aren't allowing PCs to take 10 or 20 (which is a core rule)? I'm pretty sure Mike Brock and Moreland said we had to play by the rules of the game. And I'm pretty sure that's what we all agreed to do, especially when playing in public. GMs don't get to pick and choose which rules they do or do not use. I hope Brock or Moreland put a stop to that nonsense in your perception thread. You can't break a rule like that and claim you're playing RAW, what a joke.
This brings up an improtant question though...
After we had played this, another player asked me what was to prevent someone from just casting Rope Trick in a cleared room, crawling up in the space pocket and sleeping for the night? Is this on a "time limit", and if so, what is it?
3.0 rules don't really apply. Can you cite where you're getting your "Perception checks of rooms regardless of size only require a move action" if so, taking 20 to search is going to happen a lot more often for me and my gaming group!
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Taking 20 on a whole room takes hours, wouldnt that make the time limit tick down?I'm kind of sorry you did this. I'm afraid it's going to cause them issues if they use this with...So some GMs aren't allowing PCs to take 10 or 20 (which is a core rule)? I'm pretty sure Mike Brock and Moreland said we had to play by the rules of the game. And I'm pretty sure that's what we all agreed to do, especially when playing in public. GMs don't get to pick and choose which rules they do or do not use. I hope Brock or Moreland put a stop to that nonsense in your perception thread. You can't break a rule like that and claim you're playing RAW, what a joke.
This brings up an improtant question though...
After we had played this, another player asked me what was to prevent someone from just casting Rope Trick in a cleared room, crawling up in the space pocket and sleeping for the night? Is this on a "time limit", and if so, what is it?
The time limit is the playing time of "One Convention Slot." The only stricture within the game is leaving the dungeon (if you leave, you cannot go back in). Rope Trick kind of qualifies as "leaving." If a GM wants to get sticky about semantics he could pretty easily call it on you.
There is no in-game time limit. So, even if taking 20 took hours per room there would be no repercussions from it.
Now, that's not to say that extreme amounts of time spent doing nothing won't invite attention you weren't expecting. The big bad in the scenario is not stupid, and has some very powerful minions. I would not want to come down that rope and get ambushed by everything in there that was available (which would be likely, as the big bad makes regular forays into the dungeon, which is apparent if the PCs simply look around within the first room).
You're not allowed to leave and come back? I know the players have the option of quitting the adventure any time they want between encounters, but I thought that just meant that they could decide to leave and not come back to the dungeon. I didn't think it eliminated the possibility of leaving the dungeon, camping outside, and returning the next day with fresh spells prepared. I'll have to re-read the disclaimer, since apparently I got that wrong. But I've also only read the adventure once so far, and I still want to go back and re-read it, paying closer attention to every little details, and making all sorts of notes in the margins as I go, to really prepare to run it at GenCon.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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When I got it last year I asked about that clause specifically, and was told that, as a "tournament style" scenario, the intent was to allow players one chance to explore it, deal with the threats, and escape with as much loot as possible. Essentially, what I was told was that if a group leaves the dungeon, they are deciding to exit the scenario.
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I think the "if you leave you can't come back" is also to prevent groups from alternating between clearing rooms and resting for 8 hours, thus being fully refreshed for every room. I also enjoy the challenge of completing an entire dungeon/scenario on one day's worth of resources.
Here were my tips on going into the dungeon (prepared without knowing what we were facing):
1) Buy 2 or 3 each of Antitoxin and Antiplague. They're cheap and give huge bonuses to poison and disease.
2) If you have good long duration buff spells, don't prepare them. Buy scrolls and reserve those slots for in-battle spells.
3) Buy a higher level scroll of summon monster; I prefer VI as it as has the celestial dire tiger.
4) See if the table will share the price of a lesser planar ally. This can help tremendously.
We did all this and did awesome; we only didn't finish because of a 4 hour convention slot and we started about 20 minutes late.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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When I got it last year I asked about that clause specifically, and was told that, as a "tournament style" scenario, the intent was to allow players one chance to explore it, deal with the threats, and escape with as much loot as possible. Essentially, what I was told was that if a group leaves the dungeon, they are deciding to exit the scenario.
And this answer still holds true.
What was your experience for Bonekeep, nosig?
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I think the "if you leave you can't come back" is also to prevent groups from alternating between clearing rooms and resting for 8 hours, thus being fully refreshed for every room. I also enjoy the challenge of completing an entire dungeon/scenario on one day's worth of resources.
Here were my tips on going into the dungeon (prepared without knowing what we were facing):
** spoiler omitted **
We did all this and did awesome; we only didn't finish because of a 4 hour convention slot and we started about 20 minutes late.
On the antitoxin and antiplague - if you are going to be using those, you might as well go into the Ascendant Court and pay for someone to cast Heroes' Feast on the party and have everyone bring an antiplague (assuming someone at the table has adventurer's armory).
Heroes' Feast spellcasting service - 660
Split 6 ways, with an antiplague per person - 160gp.
It's one of the best dungeon delving prep spells I've heard of for pretty much any random dungeon. Our high level group online has been bringing scrolls of heroes' feast around with us so we can awesome breakfasts every day.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Cant you play tier 7 as a level 8?I plan on playing my level 8 Goblin in both Scenarios.The scenarios are tier 3-7. You're going to have to leave your goblin on the sidelines.
You cannot play a PC through an adventure which his level is not within the tier.
There are tier 7-11 scenarios (sub-tiers 7-8 and 10-11). There are also 7th level modules, which I believe get the tier 7 label (allowing 6th, 7th, and 8th level PCs). THOSE "tier 7" adventures you would be able to join.
But a tier 3-7 scenario has sub-tiers 3-4 and 6-7. You must be 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th level to play at a tier 3-7 adventure.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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well s+$#, there goes that. I've never played down, I guess I misunderstood that rule thinking it just took the APL.
Guess i'll have to rip up some certs, lol.
Erm, you can't remove Chronicles from a PC, either. Meaning you can't simply back your guy down a level in order to fit within the tier.
If, instead, you mean you have chronicles due to having done something like playing an 8th level PC within a 3-7 scenario, you'll need to do more than "rip up some certs." You should get in touch with your coordinator and discuss how to fix it. Or your local Venture Officer, if your coordinator has also misunderstood this rule.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It was a joke.well s+$#, there goes that. I've never played down, I guess I misunderstood that rule thinking it just took the APL.
Guess i'll have to rip up some certs, lol.
Erm, you can't remove Chronicles from a PC, either. Meaning you can't simply back your guy down a level in order to fit within the tier.
If, instead, you mean you have chronicles due to having done something like playing an 8th level PC within a 3-7 scenario, you'll need to do more than "rip up some certs." You should get in touch with your coordinator and discuss how to fix it. Or your local Venture Officer, if your coordinator has also misunderstood this rule.
Ye Olde Internette tends to flatten those out pretty effectively. Sorry I missed it. (-:
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Hmm, if I die and dont pay for the level repair, would that be the same as being level 7?
Creative solutions!
Nope :(
There's a reason my gob's on slow-track. Only 30 more adventures with the little guy!
Too bad I already assigned GM credit for Eyes of the Ten to Garble. Would be a hoot to replay that one with him. (At least I think I did, I should probably check)
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Yes.
Oh, and pt. 1 & 2 will be at U-Con
Update: I played Level 1 at U-Con this past weekend ... at Mike Brock's table! I didn't want to kill off my current main character (Swiftbrook is 'retired') so I preped the pregen Amiri. The more I looked at the Amiri pregen and my Dwarf fighter 7, I noted my 30+ unused Prestige, almost 50% higher AC and just as good base damage, I convinced myself to play my Dwarf. It was well worth it!
In a nutshell:
All the PC's survived ... one animal death.
Completed five rooms ... we quit at just the right time.
No lasting effects.
Successfully earned a special treasure ... only the second group to do so with Mike.
Had a blast!
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Really the question is more abstract then that. Ask 10 different people the question of "Is she pretty?" and you'll probably get ten different answers.
The lady that is bonekeep is something of a special one. She provides a certain challenge to players who have been asking for it while providing a solid reward for the hard work you may have done. There will be those people who say "Eh shes too tall" or "I'm not a fan of blondes" but there will be others that find her just perfect. For an abstract question you must expect a variety of answers.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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The lady that is bonekeep is something of a special one. She provides a certain challenge to players who have been asking for it while providing a solid reward for the hard work you may have done. There will be those people who say "Eh shes too tall" or "I'm not a fan of blondes" but there will be others that find her just perfect. For an abstract question you must expect a variety of answers.
Some people just want a scenario they can cuddle up with by the fire, and take home to meet their parents. Bonekeep shows up to the door with nothing but a trenchcoat and a duffel bag full of chains. It's just a matter of taste, but you'd better know what you're getting into.
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I did it at Gencon and it was definitely both fun and fair (I think? I'll have to read it someday to make sure the GM didn't modify anything).
There's no room for passengers on this one and both the GM and players must move fast to complete it. Also, I don't know of any tables that completed this scenario without a twink PC or PCs in the upper level range of the subtier.
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Swiftbrook, it was a pleasure to experience the horrors of Bonekeep with you at U-Con.... and survive! It was an honor and unexpected surprise to have Mr. Brock as our GM.
Your dwarf carried his weight and then some. I hope my cleric has the opportunity to adventure with him again sometime.
May poor Scooby rest in peace...
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just played this, and I found it very fun, though not deadly at all.
My table of 6 players, one of which played a pregen, played the 6-7 tier, and we used very minimal resources during the whole crawl.
spells were used, one charge off the lesser resto wand, and 10 charges from the wand of cure light wounds.
Like everyone else, we skipped the fight in the elemental room, but not the loot.
fights:
1.first room went fast, blew threw their DR with high dmg.
2.cold room was fine, most of us had cold resist, and cleric blew them apart with two channels.
3.the Well room went too fast to remember anything about the fight.
4.rat guys were blasted with AOE's.
5.elemental room took some coordination, we had the party at one open door, while the monk waited at the other door - then he grabbed all the loot and ran back out.
6.BBEG threw some bombs, monk with snatch arrows grabbed them and threw them back at her.
7.Golem was taken out with trip attacks and Golem Scarab by the Magus.
8.all 3 orbs were placed, we shattered the mirror, and the shard was grabbed by the PC with deathless on his armor, while hounds were neutralized by an oil of sunlight.
Enjoyment:
I thought for a PFS scenario dungeon crawl it was a really well put together Fun House, the kind you find at an amusement park. not really sure why the rooms were set up the way they were or how they came together, but it didn't matter, we had fun, and had some laughs, and a general good time was had by all!
I think we even still had 45min left on the timer to allow us a role played conversation with the VC that sent us out there.
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just played this, and I found it very fun, though not deadly at all.
My table of 6 players, one of which played a pregen, played the 6-7 tier, and we used very minimal resources during the whole crawl.
spells were used, one charge off the lesser resto wand, and 10 charges from the wand of cure light wounds.
Like everyone else, we skipped the fight in the elemental room, but not the loot.fights:
1.first room went fast, blew threw their DR with high dmg.
2.cold room was fine, most of us had cold resist, and cleric blew them apart with two channels.
3.the Well room went too fast to remember anything about the fight.
4.rat guys were blasted with AOE's.
5.elemental room took some coordination, we had the party at one open door, while the monk waited at the other door - then he grabbed all the loot and ran back out.
6.BBEG threw some bombs, monk with snatch arrows grabbed them and threw them back at her.
7.Golem was taken out with trip attacks and Golem Scarab by the Magus.
8.all 3 orbs were placed, we shattered the mirror, and the shard was grabbed by the PC with deathless on his armor, while hounds were neutralized by an oil of sunlight.Enjoyment:
I thought for a PFS scenario dungeon crawl it was a really well put together Fun House, the kind you find at an amusement park. not really sure why the rooms were set up the way they were or how they came together, but it didn't matter, we had fun, and had some laughs, and a general good time was had by all!
I think we even still had 45min left on the timer to allow us a role played conversation with the VC that sent us out there.
Among other things that seem a bit off, a pair that I can say for sure:
1) you can't possibly get the treasure in the elemental room without killing the elementals, since it comes from the bodies of the elementals themselves
2) The monk with snatch arrows can snatch bombs, but per the rules of the Alchemist class, they don't function when he throws them back.
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Recap of run throughAmong other things that seem a bit off, a pair that I can say for sure:
1) you can't possibly get the treasure in the elemental room without killing the elementals, since it comes from the bodies of the elementals themselves
2) The monk with snatch arrows can snatch bombs, but per the rules of the Alchemist class, they don't function when he throws them back.
Don't really need to turn this into a rules conversation or a debate, as I wasn't the GM, so, I cant really say anything about #1.
To address your second point:UMD has already been discussed as applicable for Alchemy within this forum, I don't care to look up the link, but its there. For your reference, I pasted the applicable section from the PHB below:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
Don't really need to turn this into a rules conversation or a debate, as I wasn't the GM, so, I cant really say anything about #1.
To address your second point:
UMD has already been discussed as applicable for Alchemy within this forum, I don't care to look up the link, but its there. For your reference, I pasted the applicable section from the PHB below:Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
First of all, I am glad you had fun playing Bonekeep! And I know you said you don’t want to turn this into a rules discussion, but this is just incorrect. Please look at the bolded portion.
Bombs are not a magic item, but are the result of using a supernatural ability of the Alchemist. Yes, you can emulate a class feature, but only in the aspect to activate a magic item, which you wouldn’t be doing in this sense.
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more stuff I saidFirst of all, I am glad you had fun playing Bonekeep! And I know you said you don’t want to turn this into a rules discussion, but this is just incorrect. Please look at the bolded portion.
Bombs are not a magic item, but are the result of using a supernatural ability of the Alchemist. Yes, you can emulate a class feature, but only in the aspect to activate a magic item, which you wouldn’t be doing in this sense.
Awesome! thank you!
should I ever get meet the requirements to run this in the future I will make sure I take all the above into consideration.I can't wait to play Part 2!
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Actually, there was a post awhile back from Mike Brock that said something about how if you end a scenario with a negative condition or malady, your character would be considered dead.
What is the perspective of this scenario with that idea in mind, per what the chronicle sheet lists?
Do players that complete the scenario fall under that general blanket statement?
No, this is an exception.
The condition(s) listed on the Bonekeep chronicle sheet cannot be resolved. I can’t remember which all conditions you can potentially receive in Bonekeep, but you can’t use PP or gold to get rid of them. Although the one fortunate aspect of them is they only surface when you are in Bonekeep.
I was fortunate with both of my characters that I did not get any conditions with either part 1 or 2.
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Actually, there was a post awhile back from Mike Brock that said something about how if you end a scenario with a negative condition or malady, your character would be considered dead.
What is the perspective of this scenario with that idea in mind, per what the chronicle sheet lists?
Do players that complete the scenario fall under that general blanket statement?
No, because you are not considered to have those conditions while outside of Bonekeep, and you can heal the damage to stats and the like then.
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Wow. I'm not posting this to be confrontational, just hoping to clear up some points and hopefully help your GM next time s/he runs this.
1.first room went fast, blew threw their DR with high dmg.
I'm assuming you took damage to your weapons as necessary. 6-7 it's reasonable that everyone had an adamantine weapon (and of couse you can't leave and re-enter).
2.cold room was fine, most of us had cold resist, and cleric blew them apart with two channels.
That's pretty impressive. Even with a phylactery of positive channeling, (6d6) average damage would require slightly more than 3 channels even if they all failed saves every time.
3.the Well room went too fast to remember anything about the fight.
4.rat guys were blasted with AOE's.
5.elemental room took some coordination, we had the party at one open door, while the monk waited at the other door - then he grabbed all the loot and ran back out.
Not sure what "loot" this was. The only treasure is the elemental gems that drop from the bodies.
6.BBEG threw some bombs, monk with snatch arrows grabbed them and threw them back at her.
Without getting into a rules debate, I will say that the BBEG has a pretty high INT. I definitely don't see her throwing more than one bomb at the monk after witnessing the first result.
7.Golem was taken out with trip attacks and Golem Scarab by the Magus.
8.all 3 orbs were placed, we shattered the mirror, and the shard was grabbed by the PC with deathless on his armor, while hounds were neutralized by an oil of sunlight.
I'm assuming you mean oil of daylight here. That would negate their concealment but they are still difficult enemies even without that. You can't actually "grab" the shard. You have to destroy the crystal or the mirror.
Without all the information, it seems that your GM may have unintentionally softballed some of the challenges here. But I wager the next group will face a much deadlier time.
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No, this is an exception.
The condition(s) listed on the Bonekeep chronicle sheet cannot be resolved. I can’t remember which all conditions you can potentially receive in Bonekeep, but you can’t use PP or gold to get rid of them. Although the one fortunate aspect of them is they only surface when you are in Bonekeep.
The Bonekeep Maladies DO affect you outside of Bonekeep. In fact, there's currently no way to cure them. However the actual diseases (from part 1) and [redacted] (from part 2) only affect you in Bonekeep.
I was fortunate with both of my characters that I did not get any conditions with either part 1 or 2.
Actually, you do have the Bonekeep 2 malady.
The boon comes not from being partially mind-fogged by elementals. It comes from the black-out experience that resulted from the PCs' implied first delve in the prologue. By starting Bonekeep, Part 2, the PCs acquire the boon.
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No, this is an exception.
The condition(s) listed on the Bonekeep chronicle sheet cannot be resolved. I can’t remember which all conditions you can potentially receive in Bonekeep, but you can’t use PP or gold to get rid of them. Although the one fortunate aspect of them is they only surface when you are in Bonekeep.
The Bonekeep Maladies DO affect you outside of Bonekeep. In fact, there's currently no way to cure them. However the actual diseases (from part 1) and [redacted] (from part 2) only affect you in Bonekeep.
I was fortunate with both of my characters that I did not get any conditions with either part 1 or 2.
Actually, you do have the Bonekeep 2 malady.
The boon comes not from being partially mind-fogged by elementals. It comes from the black-out experience that resulted from the PCs' implied first delve in the prologue. By starting Bonekeep, Part 2, the PCs acquire the boon.
So, from your perspective, you're saying its a negative condition that cant be cured and effects the PCs outside the scenario?
That doesn't bode well for the previously referenced blanket statement...
The Bonekeep Maladies DO affect you outside of Bonekeep. In fact, there's currently no way to cure them. However the actual diseases (from part 1) and [redacted] (from part 2) only affect you in Bonekeep.
Actually, you do have the Bonekeep 2 malady.
The boon comes not from being partially mind-fogged by elementals. It comes from the black-out experience that resulted from the PCs' implied first delve in the prologue. By starting Bonekeep, Part 2, the PCs acquire the boon.
Hmm, I'm going to have to go take a look at my chronicle sheets again. I was told otherwise.
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OK, yeah I wasn't talking about the boon/bane on the chronicle affecting you outside Bonekeep. This definitely does, as indicated by Belafon. And it is not a condition, it is a "boon" effect.
I was just referencing any diseases you may have contracted in Bonekeep can not be cleared while outside of the dungeon, so will stay with the character, but not in effect.
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So, from your perspective, you're saying its a negative condition that cant be cured and effects the PCs outside the scenario?
That doesn't bode well for the previously referenced blanket statement...
Not my perspective. John is the PFS developer. There are plenty of scenarios that have a boon on the chronicle sheet that has a negative effect on the character. Negatives to diplomacy checks in a certain city, minuses vs. members of a certain group, there's even a particularly harsh one that gives a flat -1 to Con (not damage, not drain, just a permanent -1 to Con).
So yeah, if you contracted any diseases in Bonekeep 1, you have a -2 on ALL future saving throws vs. disease (regardless of where you are). Just by entering Bonekeep 2 you get the negative effect on that chronicle all the time (as noted by John in the linked post).
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Holy hell... Let me first start off by saying that everything said in this thread was useful, but NOTHING could have prepared me for what we found..
Our Group:
7th lvl Paladin (pregen)
7th lvl Cleric (pregen)
7th lvl Gunslinger
7th lvl Wizard
6th lvl Summoner
5th lvl Sorcerer
At the end of it we had *barely*
besides that we cleared 7 rooms with no deaths. Although we came *QUITE* close several times. (especially me.. as the lvl 5 im super squishy)
the one thing i think helped more than most was that Heroes' Feast. Temp hp, cure poison/plague/disease and a buff against rolls? yes please. Only downside was that due to the nature of the scenario we could not get spellcrafting services so i had to buy the scroll for 1650gp. Even so, WELL worth it.
After everything being said i think the time limit is the biggest constraint. if people were allowed to take their time it would be much easier and more doable but having to keep on yourselves and remember not to role play so much kind of detracts from the experience, in my opinion. I think it could stand to be even a bit harder, but relax the time constraint. But of course thats not what Bonekeep is about... ;D