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So first of all - holy crap. I haven't had my jaw drop while reading a scenario in a while. So yeah...
Anyways - some questions:
Area 5 - As far as I can understand, the brain spiders give a dominate person effect, but dominate person gives a second save in order to make you attack your allies. So should the PCs get two saves a round versus the brain spider's Mind Control ability?
Area 7 - At subtier 6-7, I'm assuming that there's supposed to be 2 swarms to go with the ogre spider. They're listed in the description of what happens when the PCs open the door but not in the monster listing.
Portal K - There's no second portal K on the map. I'm assuming the 2nd one is the unmarked portal in area 7.
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Also, let's say that someone played Bonekeep 1 at Subtier 3-4 and contracted Red Ache and is now playing Bonekeep 2 at Subtier 6-7. What DC do I use for the disease?
(My guess is 3-7 since otherwise, that would cause problems with the later Bonekeeps which I remember someone saying are 5-9's, but some confirmation that I'm not crazy would be nice.)
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Answers to questions
Area 5 - dominate monster (not person, so it will affect tiefling and aasimar players) gives a second saving throw if the person is ordered to do something against their nature. The creature description says that they force the PCs to attack each other. The ability description says the player gets a new saving throw each round. I can see that going either way. In a normal dominate situation you get the initial saving throw, and then if you're ordered "attack your best friend" you only get one more throw, even if you fight her for 20 minutes. I'd probably say that the new saving throw each round represents that attempt to shake it off. (So one throw a round is my answer.)
Area 7 - The description says it is a giant black widow spider and two swarms in 6-7, but the stat block is for an ogre spider. (And also references the wrong Bestiary page.) My guess is that it was changed in development. I don't know the official answer on that one. Unless answered otherwise I'll probably add in the swarms, the ogre spider isn't that much of a challenge to a 6-7 group.
Portal K - That's the only thing that makes sense. Neither area 5 or area 7 mentions that portal by name.
Diseases - they are magical in nature and only exist in Bonekeep. Could go either way. If I was writing the scenario, I'd probably make it the level you are playing at.
Notes
The Mind Wipe ability Oblivion-Water Elemental in 6-7 should have a DC of 16, not 14. The adjustment from the advanced template was not applied.
The chronicle lists loot for "Tier 8-9" which should be 6-7.
In my downloads the scenario is listed as "Maze TO the Mind Slave"
MY questions/concerns
If I have a player suffering from a disease malady from Part I and they make a save, I intend to write that in the notes part of the chronicle. Presumably if they return for part 3 and then make the first save that would count as 2 consecutive saves.
Unlike Part I, it appears there is no way to avoid getting the malady in Part II. As written it applies even in the (incredibly unlikely) event that you take no mental damage during the adventure. Intentional?
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A few other notes/questions after some more in-depth reading:
NOTE: I haven't had this one nearly as long as part 1, but it seems WAY more deadly for a lot of characters. Especially some of the "one-way" portals that can prevent groups from leaving at all.
-There are two special abilities in the stat blocks of various creatures named "Mind Wipe." They do two completely different things.
-The goblins in area 6 have the following description in the creatures section: Like the ogres, these goblins have had their minds almost completely wiped by the power of this place... However the stat block lacks the (ogres') Mind Wipe special ability. I presume it's an error and I will give them that ability as well.
-The spiders in area 7 are "conjured creatures." Are they permanent until destroyed or is there a caster level (and duration) that I don't see?
-Area 8 has a couple of (possible) errors. The "creatures" text says that the brain spiders feed off the electricity in the room, but the stat block is the same as the earlier spiders (who are immune to acid, not electricity). So should they be taking damage if they end in a space that would be affected?
-Karnakin's stat block in Tier 6-7 should have DR 10/adamantine (110 points) under defenses.
-I understand why it's not in the stat block but be aware that Karnakin has resist 20 to one energy type at 3-4 and resist 30 to two energy types at 6-7.
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Anyone a little concerned about running the encounter in area 3 and be able to make it something other than a toe-to-toe slugfest? A 40 ft. x 30 ft. arena (including the steps/seats around the edge) and 3 large sized creatures? This could be a very static fight...
Area 4 is actually worse. Especially 6-7. Consider one-way travel and the starting positions of the enemies. Now consider that this won't just be toe-to-toe, it'll be one-on-one.
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Not really - the equipment in the left one everyone gets, and the equipment in the right one only subtier 8-9 gets.
It works the same as before, but no confusion for newer GMs who cross off the low subtier equipment when playing high.
(I believe all Season 5 stuff works like that. I don't know 100% since I haven't seen any new season 5 stuff other than this, but that's the way the chronicle in the new guide is laid out.)
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The variant water elemental mind wipe ability should be DC 16 in the high tier. It's 14 in the low tier, but the advanced template will bump that by 2.
Yeah, worried about the ogres too. Not much room to maneuver. I kind of want to make that room 1sq = 10 ft. I heard some discussion that ogres dropping into pcs squares can give a reflex save vs falling damage of the ogre to get out of the way lol. Makes it a little fun, but then the tight room is :x
And the ceiling holes aren't designated on the map. So I just presume the 4x4 area centered on the stone pedestal.
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That's not what the boon says.
I don't have the PDF with me, but I think those instructions are in the adventure itself. Just like for the boons in the #5-01 chronicle sheet, it doesn't SAY on the sheet those boons are for those factions only, but the adventure itself tells the GMs to cross them off.
Developer
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Martin, I thought of the same thing for the maze but I am worried it will waste too much time and be frustrating. Maybe if they try to start mapping or marking with chalk, they will see some other marks from when they were there before and it will go quicker?I ended up drawing out each section separately, but when one of the players got chalk out and started marking the walls I gave them a couple of "this way" signs from their previous visit. If they hadn't started using chalk I probably wouldn't have done this.
I had a similar experience at Gen Con when a character marked the first entryway "A." He then noticed that in his own handwriting, there was another "A" already there. The first couple of portals had lettering that further supported their accuracy, but deeper in, the chalk markings suddenly jumped up in the alphabet, including entries like "M?" and "M. Definitely M."
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Developer
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That's not what the boon says.I don't have the PDF with me, but I think those instructions are in the adventure itself. Just like for the boons in the #5-01 chronicle sheet, it doesn't SAY on the sheet those boons are for those factions only, but the adventure itself tells the GMs to cross them off.
PCs that explore this dungeon receive Bonekeep Malady 2, as noted on their Chronicle sheet.
The boon comes not from being partially mind-fogged by elementals. It comes from the black-out experience that resulted from the PCs' implied first delve in the prologue. By starting Bonekeep, Part 2, the PCs acquire the boon.
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Regarding the ogre encounter...one of the tables we had the other night saw someone fireball those poor ogres, and the one with the necklace of fireballs failed his save and his necklace went super nova. Someone in the party got killed by it along with the ogre. I think it being kind of a small place to fight big creatures was intended for that reason..
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Regarding the ogre encounter...one of the tables we had the other night saw someone fireball those poor ogres, and the one with the necklace of fireballs failed his save and his necklace went super nova. Someone in the party got killed by it along with the ogre. I think it being kind of a small place to fight big creatures was intended for that reason..
That's pretty funny, but if he's already thrown one, nobody should be throwing fire at him.
Such are the lessons of Bonekeep. :)As for space, the other two guard for his throws, keeping the party in "Fireball Formation", 20' from wall to ogre, so no room to get out of blasts.
The ogre fight is pretty easy (even outside Bonekeep), sort of a timed event to take out the ogre with necklace before he uses too much of it and your healing.
A party with a blaster will likely lose (and not need) the necklace.
The necklace, in turn, can be pretty important to use against the brain spiders. (Our party made quick use of it there, willing to burn ourselves to avoid domination.)
The maze can lead to a lot of one-on-one fighting, but that's (I think) to test certain party builds, especially if separated. There are enough turns that we were always able to get two-on-one.
Looking forward to #3.
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I have a concern about area 4 and the scale
if you have 6 players ... as soon as they walk into the area they are around a corner ... suddenly there is almost no room to move
Particularly in the rea's between portals
G and H
F and E
D and E
there is simply no room
is the maze supposed to be a 1 Square = 10 Feet ?
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ok another question about Scaling I have a table of each this weekend .. and as Im looking at what I have signed up and my best math puts them in between subteirs (Both part 1 and 2)both tables are 6 players
now reading through these there is no 4 player adjustments so
Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the
scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table
is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario),
a party of four characters must play the lower tier without
any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven
characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play
the higher tier with the four-character adjustment
are they still playing up ?
or Are they playing down ?I realize the difficulty involved with this lends to playing up
I just want to be absolutly sure before I commit 2 tables of PC's to the grave
or do I give them the option like in the olden days
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John, does this penalty apply only in Bonekeep, or does every character who has been through Part 2 suffer from confusion each time they take mental damage anywhere?I'm wondering this myself, as well as whether GMing this scenario grants the "boon" to the character you're giving the credit to.
Any answer on this, yet?
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Any answer on this, yet?John, does this penalty apply only in Bonekeep, or does every character who has been through Part 2 suffer from confusion each time they take mental damage anywhere?I'm wondering this myself, as well as whether GMing this scenario grants the "boon" to the character you're giving the credit to.
Yes. As per the rules in the Guide, GMs are free to accept OR decline any boons (or "boons") in their chronicle sheets.
Unless Bonekeep is treated any differently, the same rules should still apply.
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Any answer on this, yet?John, does this penalty apply only in Bonekeep, or does every character who has been through Part 2 suffer from confusion each time they take mental damage anywhere?I'm wondering this myself, as well as whether GMing this scenario grants the "boon" to the character you're giving the credit to.Yes. As per the rules in the Guide, GMs are free to accept OR decline any boons (or "boons") in their chronicle sheets.
Unless Bonekeep is treated any differently, the same rules should still apply.
I think the question is -
When PC's take Mental Damage outside of Bonekeep - are they subject to the confusion ?or does the Confusion on mental damage only apply inside Bonekeep
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I think the question is -
When PC's take Mental Damage outside of Bonekeep - are they subject to the confusion ?or does the Confusion on mental damage only apply inside Bonekeep
That specific question was never answered by John, but my reading of the boon would indicate that yes, they are subject to it outside as well.
Maybe characters with the boon should invest in an azata's whimsey.
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Played this on the weekend. Ran with a fairly optimised party of six on high tier. We suffered from too much debuffing and not enough damage. Only just got past the brain spiders when time ran out. Reading the mod afterwards, I am confident we could have finished it in it's entirety if there was no hard time limit. The five foot passage with DR'ed up clockwork soldiers was particularly drawn out, even with access to adamantine damage.
Is it just me, or does it seem like an unrealistic expectation for a party to get through all of Level 2 within the time limit? Do people just go numbers savant? Are all the fights reduced to Save vs Death with improbably high DCs? Bonekeep level 1 seemed to be a reasonable ask, but number 2 seems like too many 'slog' fights to eat up time rather than any particular dangers (though the necklace was a nice touch).
There's a message above that says a group of 4 got through all of it within 2 hours 17 minutes. Really?
I would also like an answer regarding where the Bonekeep Malady 2 applies. I assume from the ruling from Part 1 that the Bonekeep maladies only apply to the dungeon, but the chronicle sheet doesn't state this. What's the situation?
From a game design point of view, if Malady 2 applies outside of Bonekeep, it is a great way to painfully punish all non-optimisers who never wanted to touch Bonekeep. You've just corralled all the optimised damage dealer Pathfinder characters into getting a negative boon that will make them go confused and attack their fellow PCs in regular PFS play. For this reason, it is vital that the malady only applies to Bonekeep play.
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Is it just me, or does it seem like an unrealistic expectation for a party to get through all of Level 2 within the time limit? Do people just go numbers savant? Are all the fights reduced to Save vs Death with improbably high DCs? Bonekeep level 1 seemed to be a reasonable ask, but number 2 seems like too many 'slog' fights to eat up time rather than any particular dangers (though the necklace was a nice touch).
There's a message above that says a group of 4 got through all of it within 2 hours 17 minutes. Really?
The major difference between Bonekeep 1 and Bonekeep 2 is in how the monsters are designed. For the most part, the Bonekeep 1 is designed with monsters that are hard to kill. Bonekeep 2 is designed for monsters that will kill you before you can kill them. If you can survive the initial assaults from the monsters in Bonekeep 2, then it's fairly trivial to kill a lot of them. The brain spiders can take some time due to the domination, and the clockwork soldiers obviously have tough DR and limit the number of people who can interact with them, but the amount of defensively abilities in 2 pales in comparison to how hard Bonekeep 1's monsters were.
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Played this two nights ago. Near TPK on the ogre fight. The cleric with 30+ AC was first through the portal, and combat started. The ogres knocked him down, and then most everyone else provoked AoOs as they entered the room and were torn to shreds. Two of us made it out by acrobatics or by following the 37 AC total defensing fighter (who was killed by a crit).
That fight was really brutal, as it was impossible for more than two people to enter the room without provoking AoOs.
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Exocrat, I don't think stepping into the room should have provoked.
You are stepping from a non-threatened space (the other room) into a threatened space (maybe) which doesn't provoke unless you move another square.
Those free attacks shouldn't have occurred unless you mean you had to find places to fit, which I think you could do by using your friends as cover.
Also, our party just rushed through the doors on the same turn. The surprise round should be you all entering, right?
The ogres are so large, you should only be facing two (it's 20' wide), plus the guy throwing if he's willing to burn his allies.
It was one of our easiest fights. It didn't hurt that my high AC dwarf, +4 AC :), was point man.
I think the intention was that you need the necklace as unused as possible to fry the spiders. (We did not hesitate to burn ourselves there!)
For Andrei:
It's made to press for time, but that's to push your limits. You don't need your PCs optimized (ours weren't, just effective & well-balanced), but you need your play optimized. No pauses, move-move-move.
Signs up for all the buffs. Quick talking, quick walking.
And an efficient GM! That's probably the most important.
I'd think a four-PC party would have an easier time with the time limit, if they're optimized so they can handle the threats that is. Fewer voices to be heard, smoother coordination.
You can get your individual turns down to 5-20 seconds.
At least, in a dungeon gauntlet you can.
Cheers
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Those free attacks shouldn't have occurred unless you mean you had to find places to fit, which I think you could do by using your friends as cover.Also, our party just rushed through the doors on the same turn. The surprise round should be you all entering, right?
The ogres are so large, you should only be facing two (it's 20' wide), plus the guy throwing if he's willing to burn his allies.
It was one of our easiest fights. It didn't hurt that my high AC dwarf, +4 AC :), was point man.
I think the intention was that you need the necklace as unused as possible to fry the spiders. (We did not hesitate to burn ourselves there!)
Yeah, we had to find spaces to hit. The ogres got the surprise round after the first guy portalled in. Two attacked our dwarf before the second person had the opportunity to enter the room.