Natural (Weapon) Attacks and Arcane Strike.

[Vincent The Dark]

I had a little argument with a player about if Natural Attacks are made with natural Weapons. I mean the Witch's hair, the claws of a Thiefling, things like that. I also ask if Arcane Strike would make all natural (weapon) attacks Magical.

[CRobledo]

Vincent The Dark wrote:

I had a little argument with a player about if Natural Attacks are made with natural Weapons. I mean the Witch's hair, the claws of a Thiefling, things like that. I also ask if Arcane Strike would make all natural (weapon) attacks Magical.

For arcane strike, it's pretty crystal clear:

PRD wrote:

Arcane Strike:

Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

[Cheapy]

Natural Attacks and Natural Weapons are one and the same...

[Jiggy]

Core Rulebook wrote:

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites...

LINK

[Vincent The Dark]

I wish people wouldn't argue about some simple things like this. But, yes, the description of natural attacks is obviously the key here. Thanks.

[trollbill]

So magic weapon, bless weapon, divine favor, etc. would all work on a bite attack?

[Tristan Windseeker]

trollbill wrote:

So magic weapon, bless weapon, divine favor, etc. would all work on a bite attack?

Unless the spell says otherwise, yes. For example, Magic Weapon says:

Quote:

You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

[trollbill]

Hmmm...
Maybe my melee witch idea will work after all.

[fuzzyillogic]

trollbill wrote:

Hmmm...

Maybe my melee witch idea will work after all.

Didn't try it in any campaing, but at least on paper a white-haired archetype witch combined maybe with some Eldritch knight should allow a quite decent BAB, making for a reach-build that, if not overly powerful, seems quite fun to play...

[lemeres]

I would guess that relying on combat reflexes for melee and just casting spells on your turn would work out (much like the reach cleric). You would not do very many full attacks with only one natural attack, but breaking the action economy is still a great deal.

Still might not be the best idea since the witch's spells are balanced with their ability to use hexes, which would not go up. I mean, if you go white haired witch you might not mind quite as much, but it is still somewhat of a problem.

[trollbill]

I was thinking more of witch that could get 5 natural weapon attacks a round by 4th level. She would need buff spells (probably go with Strength Patron) to make up for a low BAB.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Out of curiosity... how would one get 5 nat attacks at 4th?

I can see: claw/claw from tiefling or similar, bite from toothy/tusked whichever one is the adopted legal one, hair for another using int... what's the 5th?

[trollbill]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Out of curiosity... how would one get 5 nat attacks at 4th?

I can see: claw/claw from tiefling or similar, bite from toothy/tusked whichever one is the adopted legal one, hair for another using int... what's the 5th?

This one is still in rough draft mode but is would work something like this:

Tiefling with Claw & Maw to give is a bite attack.
Stats
St 10
Dx 18
Cn 12
In 18
Ws 12
Ch 5

Lvl 1 - Monk (Monk of the Sacred Mountain, Master of Many Forms), Feats - ki-rin style, improved unarmed strike, weapon finesse
Lvl 2 - Witch, Nails Hex
Lvl 3 - Monk, Feats - toughness, ki-rin strike, ????
Lvl 4 - Witch, Prehensile Hair Hex

So at 4th she would have 2 claws, a bite, hair and an improved unarmed strike.

I figured th rest of the levels would go into Witch and rely on buff spells for greater defense & offense and I would get a Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists as soon as I could afford it. Not sure what to take for the 3rd level feat as Multiattack isn't legal in PFS and Arcane Strike conflicts with Ki-Rin Strike.

[Cornielius]

It might work, but would it achieve anything?

It looks like a resulting BAB of +1, with four of your attacks as secondary and thus at -5 and 1/2 str.

[trollbill]

Well that is the question, isn't it? Which is why it is still on the drawing board. Spells like divine favor and enlarge person can help with that but probably not enough. The lack of Multiattack is a serious gimp.

[Cheapy]

There's also been clarification on the boards that unarmed strikes aren't meant to be mixed with natural attacks.

[trollbill]

Cheapy wrote:

There's also been clarification on the boards that unarmed strikes aren't meant to be mixed with natural attacks.

That wouldn't be a clarification, it would be an eratta since the rules for natural attacks specifically state you can combine them.

[blackbloodtroll]

Cheapy wrote:

There's also been clarification on the boards that unarmed strikes aren't meant to be mixed with natural attacks.

What are you talking about?

I demand proof.

[TGMaxMaxer]

You can combine them.... it just sucks.

If you have claw/claw/bite and a BAB less than 6 (no iterative yet) you get either: Claw/Claw/Bite at full. Once you get your 2nd iterative attack at 6/1 then the claw/claw/bite will be at the same bonuses as the 2nd iterative, and you lose the natural attack for the limb that is making the iterative attack with either a weapon or IUS.

OR

BAB at full (IUS is a iterative attack, not a natural attack) and if you use monk IUS to kick instead of hit Claw/Claw/Bite at -5 and half str for off weapons(it's in the natural attack rules section). If you swung a weapon you would lose the Claw from that limb for Weapon(full BAB) Claw/Bite (Full-5, half str to damage)

Monks Flurry of blows is what is not meant to be mixed with natural attacks... for the purpose of extra attacks beyond the norm...
With Feral Combat training you can -substitute- whatever natural weapon you chose for Wpn Foc into a flurry routine, but you still only get your normal flurry of total attacks.

This example is a monk, but doesn't have flurry of blows, so no worries there. This means that unarmed strikes can come from kicks, but the instant that you take anything other than "natural attacks", you drop to the rules for attacking with other weapons in conjunction with natural attacks.

For a witch2/monk2 with claw/claw/bite/hair(secondary attack per the hex) and Imp Unarmed Strike,

You have BAB 2, Str 0, Int 4, so you have attacks at Claw +2/Claw +2/Bite +2/Hair +1(BAB 2, int 4, -5 secondary).

If you take an unarmed strike, you go to Unarmed strike +2/Hair +1/Claw -3/Claw -3/Bite-3.