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I have realized that special materials limit the level of enchantment that a Pathfinder is able to procure. To me this should be changed.
Your reward is access to enchanters who can enchant gear for you. For example a +4 bonus to a sword or shield or armor costs 16,000gp. Now one person wears a crappy pappy leather armor and asks for a +2 enchantment and it costs him 16,000gp + armor cost. Now if his fame limits him to 16,500gp then he gets it done and no problem, while the warrior who wants to buy a Mithril Full Plate is limited to a +2 bonus, due to the cost of the Mithril.
While I understand this, I believe this to be a poor reward system. After all, the PFS doesn’t pay for the Mithril the PC does, so why should the thief get the +4 bonus while the warrior only gets a +2?
Imagine that a guy says, since you did me a solid one, I’ll install a new and fancy 800 horsepower engine into your car. One guy shows up with a Pinto and the other guy shows up with a Ferrari. Now the mechanic say, well I can put the 800 hp engine into the Pinto but the Ferrari which is much more expensive can only get a 400 hp engine because you paid more for the car than the guy who bought the Pinto. And to that I say: WTH? So I should get penalized for buying a Ferrari while the guy with the Pinto get the better engine, just because I saved all my nickels and dimes and bought a Ferrari?
To me this is just abjectly unfair. Why penalize a PC for buying special material. The Pathfinder Society has obviously made an Enchanter available to him who can enchant a +4 armor, so why punish him for being thrifty with his resources and buying a better quality weapon prior to enchantment?
After when you have enough fame for 16,500gp you can buy a suit of Mithril Full Plate or a +4 enchantment but you can’t combine them? The material cost, prior to enchantment should not be a factor. I’m buying a Ferrari and you bought a Pinto, we both earned the right to an 800 hp engine, I’m just the guy who saved his cash and you didn’t. Why am I being punished for you buying a crappy car?
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For example a +4 bonus to a sword {emphasis mine} or shield or armor costs 16,000gp.
Just to note that weapons are more expensive to enhance than armor or shields (double the cost, in fact). A +4 bonus to a weapon costs #2,000 gp (plus the cost of the weapon).
Back to your regularly-scheduled conversation.
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Anyway, the reason that mithral armor is more expensive, as I'm sure you've realized, is that it is better. It's lighter, it has a lower ACP, and a lower arcane spell failure chance.
+4 mithral full plate costs more than +4 steel full plate, because it's a better suit of armor. The Fame requirement in PFS represents your purchasing power; it takes longer for you to be able to obtain the mithral version of the same armor. Frankly, I don't see a problem with this.
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You don't obtain the Mithral armor from the Pathfinder Society. You obtain it from a smith, who knows a miner. And you pay for that armor, through the nose.
The reward that PFS gives you is access to the enchanters powerful enough to enchant a certain level of enchantment. So, if as my example shows you have two guys showing up with different cars and the reward is an 800 hp engine, why should you be penalized for having the better car. Your reward should be based on your achievements not on what you own.
Whether you have a steel sword or an adamatine sword should make no difference to the enchanter creating the enchantment.
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I think it was something like people in heavy armor shouldn't be gimped.
Except that it doesn't gimp all (or, I suspect, even most) characters who wear heavy armor. The guy who buys +4 (regular) full plate is getting it at, more or less, the same time as the guy buying +4 leather armor. (I say "more or less" because there may be some point at which the ~1500 gp increased cost of full plate over leather comes into play on the Fame chart.)
Most characters who wear heavy armor aren't built on Dex-based skills, and thus, are probably not going for mithral heavy armor. It's the corner-case of someone whose build calls for heavy armor, but the lighter weight / lower ACP of mithral.
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With all the misunderstandings on how the Fame system works now anyways, it would be way too complicated to add a level of complexity where only cost of the enchanter services dictates what you can purchase by Fame level.
Your theory assumes that most folks buy their first set of magical armor at the highest they can get. This is most likely not true. As typically the value of an item vs. what gold you have (unless you’ve been playing up a ton, and then I have no sympathy for you) dictates to be well rounded you typically will have both a magical weapon, armor, couple other items, and some magical consumables.
As such, it is unlikely your example will actually happen. And even if it did, that +4 leather is still a total of +6 armor bonus, while +2 Full Plate is a +10 bonus.
I’m not seeing the problem.
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You don't obtain the Mithral armor from the Pathfinder Society. You obtain it from a smith, who knows a miner.
Hi, there, Eric; it's nice to meet you. I don't think you're right here. I think the Society, or your character's faction, makes all the arrangements for your PC's equipment, unless it's listed as "always available".
The rules for gaining equipment in Pathfinder Society organized play don't adhere overwell to any in-world justifications. (For just one example: if your party finds a unique magical item, like an intelligent ring or a falming axe sacred to a native people, every member of the party can buy the item after the adventure.)
Since the first days of the campaign, the campaign leadership has limited access to equipment based on the total price of the piece in question. That may not "make sense" in world, but it seems like a reasonable way to index items.
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I think the analogy is better by saying both people have 50,000 dollars to spend.
One spent it in a super nice car with a crappy engine.
The second spent it in a crappy car with a super awesome engine.
Both people made their choice on how to spend their same amount of money. Why should #1 have a benefit here?
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@OP
If I read what you are saying correctly you would like the cost of the materials not to be included in the over all cost of the weapon?
Not exactly. What I'm proposing is that the cost of the armor should not be counted against your Fame limit.
Essentially, if someone wants a Steel Full Plate +4 and they meet the fame requirements for a 16,000gp item, have at it. But if you are willing to spend the 10,000gp for Mithral to pay for a Mithral Full Plate +4, you shouldn't be penalized. You want to spend 26,000gp for a Mithral Full Plate, the 10,000gp investment shouldn't be counted against your Fame limit, only the enchantment cost should count against your Fame limit. So you can either buy a Steel or a Mithral Full Plate, one will cost more but neither will count against your Fame limit.
The enchanter enchanting armor for Pathfinders shouldn't really care what your armor is made off, only whether or not you have the 16,000gp to pay for the enchantment.
Essentially, you want to put your 800hp engine into your car the PFS shouldn't punish you for driving a nice car vs. a pinto.
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As Chris Mortika notes, many of the rules about item acquisition in PFS are abstractions, for the sake of making an organized-play environment work well. You're butting your head against this rule because you're trying to come up with real-world examples why the rule is flawed. You may have to just reconcile the fact that it doesn't make logical, in-world sense.
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This kind of arrangement would get exceedingly complicated. As Andrew said (I think), people still possess difficulties in understanding how the fame system works, i.e. you can't upgrade a +2 weapon to a +3 weapon if you don't have enough fame for a +3 weapon's price tag. For reference, a +2 weapon costs 8300 gp + weapon price, whereas a +3 weapon costs 18300 gp + weapon price. You need a fame score of 36 to buy a +3 weapon. Of course a chronicle might offer you a +3 weapon before that.
Anyway, not in favor.
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Yeah, simple is good, it just sucks that you get penalized for having a Mithral BP vs a regular BP and you can only have a +1 bonus because its Mithral vs the other guy who went cheap and got the +2 bonus.
Yes ... but you got mithral, which means you made the decision to have a lighter, less anti-magic piece of armor. If you'd rather have a +2 bonus early, you can do that instead. The choice is, as always, yours.
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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If you take the Special Material cost out of the Fame Requirement, then at lower levels, a character could purchase unenchanted versions of the armour at much lower fame totals, which could also potentially unbalance some characters.
For instance, normally, a Mithral Breastplate could be purchased no earlier than level 4 (18 fame required, best case of 2 fame per XP, meaning 9 XP, which equals level 4). With normal gold awards, a character could save enough cash to afford the MBP at level 3.
As another example, the unenchanted Mithral Full Plate has a full cost of 10500 gp - this needs 27 fame, which is level 6, minimum. A couple of sessions of playing up, and a character could easily afford this sooner. Not only that, but the character could then also choose to enchant it, giving much more effective protection and skills than what would normally be available at that level. Is this desirable?
Now apply the same logic to Adamantine - that +1 Adamantine Sword becomes available at 13 fame, instead of 18 fame. Is this an issue?
as Andrew said most people aren't going to just pop off a +4 suit of armour, with the way magical armour advancement works, as I understand it, is that you can build your armour bonuses as you go... only paying the cost differental between the levels, so if you've perchased mtihiral full plate and had it enchanted at +1, When you get enough gold or fame to pay for +2 you don't pay the full cost just the difference in price between +1 and +2 (or 3 or 4). I see your point in the case of having all kinds of fame and wanting a huge item all at once, but if you slow build it I don't see running into this problem... but maybe I don't understand how magic armour upgrades work.
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If you take the Special Material cost out of the Fame Requirement, then at lower levels, a character could purchase unenchanted versions of the armour at much lower fame totals, which could also potentially unbalance some characters.
For instance, normally, a Mithral Breastplate could be purchased no earlier than level 4 (18 fame required, best case of 2 fame per XP, meaning 9 XP, which equals level 4). With normal gold awards, a character could save enough cash to afford the MBP at level 3.
As another example, the unenchanted Mithral Full Plate has a full cost of 10500 gp - this needs 27 fame, which is level 6, minimum. A couple of sessions of playing up, and a character could easily afford this sooner. Not only that, but the character could then also choose to enchant it, giving much more effective protection and skills than what would normally be available at that level. Is this desirable?
Now apply the same logic to Adamantine - that +1 Adamantine Sword becomes available at 13 fame, instead of 18 fame. Is this an issue?
Actually, to cover everything in your post, you have it pretty much incorrect.
Mithral and Adamantine are both Always Available.
Mundane armor is Always Available.
+1 enhancements to Armor, Shields, and weapons are Alweays Available.
Which means that anyone, even a totally new PC, if they have the gold, could buy a +1 Adamantine Full Plate with 0 (yes, zero) Fame.
The Fame limits kick in, for all but Dragonhide armor, ONLY when you want to make your armor +2 or equivalent enhancement. At that point, the Fame needed to make the armor +2 will vary, depending on the total cost of buying the same armor from scratch.
+2 Padded Armor? 4,155 gp. Well within the limits for 18 Fame.
+2 Adamantine Full Plate? 20,650 gp. You will need 36 Fame for this armor.
Yet, in both cases, as the OP pointed out, the total enhancement cost is only 4,000 gp, which should require only 18 Fame to obtain.
Then again, to get a +2 weapon, you still have to have 27 Fame, rather than 22, because the weapon adds 300+ gp to the total cost, even though the +2 enhancement would only cost 8,000 gp.
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By this argument you only need the fame to pay the difference between a +1 and +2 weapon for the +2.
The cap doesn't make sense in real life, but then again no cap does. It only makes sense mechanically within the context of a game trying to be balanced. I wouldn't accuse capitalism of being balanced.
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If you take the Special Material cost out of the Fame Requirement, then at lower levels, a character could purchase unenchanted versions of the armour at much lower fame totals, which could also potentially unbalance some characters.
For instance, normally, a Mithral Breastplate could be purchased no earlier than level 4 (18 fame required, best case of 2 fame per XP, meaning 9 XP, which equals level 4). With normal gold awards, a character could save enough cash to afford the MBP at level 3.
As another example, the unenchanted Mithral Full Plate has a full cost of 10500 gp - this needs 27 fame, which is level 6, minimum. A couple of sessions of playing up, and a character could easily afford this sooner. Not only that, but the character could then also choose to enchant it, giving much more effective protection and skills than what would normally be available at that level. Is this desirable?
Now apply the same logic to Adamantine - that +1 Adamantine Sword becomes available at 13 fame, instead of 18 fame. Is this an issue?
All +1 magic weapons and armor are available immediately at lvl. 1. So a lvl. 1 after 2 adventures of party leeching could have +6,000gp and can buy a Mithral BP +1.
Also, fame is not required for non-magical items, only for magic items +2 or above.
EDIT:
Just read everyone else's responses, they said what I did. So really, its a question of going from +1 to +2 requires an extra 3-6 fame for normal material and could require an extra 12-15 fame for Mithral or Ademantine armor or weapons.
Let's take for example a Full Plate +1 vs an Ademantine Full Plate +1. Both can be gotten without any fame, the price difference is about 15,000gp.
Now a Full Plate +2 vs. an Ademantine Full Plate +2 requires 5,800gp vs. 20,500gp. In terms of fame the regular Full Plate will require 22 Fame vs. the Ademantine which will require 36 Fame.
So in simple terms, the basic item requires a minimum of 11 adventures, for a minimum level of 4.66 vs. the second item which requires 18 adventures for a minimum level of 7.
It just seems weird to me that a +2 armor made of different materials requires you to be 2-3 levels higher.
FYI: I understand that weapon bonuses cost double the cost of armor bonuses.
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15k is worth DR 3/- in your example.
Besides that, why add a whole new level of complexity to go from +1 to +2. +1 to damage and hit on your shinny new weapon or +1 to AC on your new armor really doesn't make enough difference to change the rules over. +1 is nothing. Seriously. Look into some of the consumables you could purchase instead to become a well rounded character.
Get a character above level 7, perhaps then you will see how futile this post is.
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If you are buying the items, you can probably afford the enchantmets Drogos.
@Mortifier, I'm at lvl. 5 and I can see that by lvl. 7 (4 successful adventures for me), I'll be quite wealthy at 3k gp per adventure at this point. So I have to politely disagree on whether or not I'll be able to afford this. I am currently using a Agile Mithral BP +1. However, I also went with the Darkwood Shield +1 and then Ring of Protection +1, since going the +1 route gave me +3 AC for a cost of 1,000gp + 1,000gp + 2,000gp (ring). But once I want to go the +2 route, I could have gotten stopped at the +2 Mithral BP if I hadn't been so successful with my side mission. (I'm 14/14 right now for a total Fame of 28.) Had I built my PC differently, I might not have gotten more than 14 Fame and I'd be outta luck.
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i kinda skimmed this, but did anyone mention upgrading? RAW you can start with a masterwork version and then pay only the enchant cost to make it magical and then periodically can up the bonus paying only the difference of what the final price and current value of the item is. this is essentially what you were looking for correct?
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i kinda skimmed this, but did anyone mention upgrading? RAW you can start with a masterwork version and then pay only the enchant cost to make it magical and then periodically can up the bonus paying only the difference of what the final price and current value of the item is. this is essentially what you were looking for correct?
Of course to complicate things a little bit; you must have enough fame to cover the cost of the entire item, not just the upgrade.
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Fame thresholds are trivial compared to the actual cash money. My magus has like four items queued up to purchased he could have bought at level 5. He's level 7.
The authors/devs desperately need to put on more unique items and/or discounted items onto chronicle sheets. I have bought literally three things off sheets out of dozens of sheets.
Fame thresholds are trivial compared to the actual cash money. My magus has like four items queued up to purchased he could have bought at level 5. He's level 7.
I completely agree with this.
When I was lower level, trying to raise my Fame as high and quickly as possible was important to me.
But now my Ranger being 8th level, my Fame is plenty high enough for whatever items I own or want to buy, but having enough funds to purchase what I want is another story.
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This is why I don't understand the hand wringing over party wealth. Even if someone completed cheesed the old tiering system and played up every time from level 1, their wealth is still gimped compared to a PC with access to item creation.
But PFS doesn't allow item creation. Thus, saying it wasn't a problem because it's still less wealth than a PC with access to item creation is like saying it wasn't a problem because it's still less wealth than a PC in a campaign that gives double treasure. How a PC's wealth in one campaign compares to a PC's wealth in some other campaign is completely irrelevant.
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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@David - In a home game, where the party does have access to crafting or might get more cash than WBL, the GM can just adjust the difficulty of the encounters he designs, or throttle back the cash he's giving out. In a shared campaign, there is no way for the GM on the day to police this sort of thing, or adjust for it. Therefore, the only way to cater for it is to correct the handing out of wealth in the first place.
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The problem that I see is not the fame vs. Cost for unique materials like Adamantine or Mithril but the rules governing unique materials themselves.
These rules have not be updated since 3.x rules under the current rules Mithril and Adamantine are broken for armor. Mithril should improve the wearers AC by +3 and retain the 50% reduction in weight. Adamantine should increase the wearers AC by 6 and loose the DR 3/- my reasoning for this is by the time you can spend the 16500gp you are at least 7th level for a suit of Adamantine Full Plate by adding AC and dropping DR you are increasing the wearers survival ability of the wearer which armor is supposed to do. DR 3/- is not worth 15000 gp in the current fame WBL frame work If the DR is kept it should be increased to at least DR 5/- or DR 5/ Epic. I am still in favor of or dropping the DR and increasing the ac for unique materials.
I have several reasons for this the classic is the Mithril shirt that Frodo was wearing in LoTR turned aside a spear from a troll and yet was light enough for Frodo to wear without encumbering in the slightest.
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Wealth was never the problem anyway. It was builds.The existence of one problem does not invalidate the fixing of another.
It's a matter of scale. The amount of "problem" that wealth causes versus the issue of builds is so small, it's an error bar. But that's my take on it. It doesn't matter, as they did what they did. Which I'm fine with, because it makes getting a table for level 3's and 5's much easier.
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Basically, it's there for BALANCE...not realism. Stop with trying to impose "realism" to try and get the rules how you like. If you can't explain why the rules you propose is BALANCED...forget it. Your not gonna convince anyone to your way of thinking in leadership without that. And no, your idea is NOT BALANCED. The extra cost of the various special materials gives you added benefits. If you don't like it, don't get it.