Hey everyone,
So here's an example of what I'm trying to do:
I win initiative against a large guy who wields a large reach weapon, standing 30ft in front of me.
On my round, I ready an acrobatics action to move/dodge said enemies weapon swing and get myself up close to him on his attack.
I succeed. We've both had our turn so it's back to mine where I full attack up in his face.
Is this possible or does this break the rules, because usually attacks go against AC, but what I'm trying to do is use acrobatics to dodge the attack to get in close enough to pull off my attack.
What other ways are there around this?
I have a Gladiator I want to use who will be rolling around the arena a lot, avoiding charge attacks and blows with massive hammers or swords, by readying actions until there's an opening.
As I understand it, what actually happens is that you can use Acrobatics on your turn to move through his threatened area without provoking an AoO. You then end up beside him, possibly with a standard action left. On his turn, unless he somehow threatens the square right in front of him, he needs to step back and full attack you. Which he probably will. Take Step Up?
I don't think you can use Acrobatics as a readied way to dodge an attack. That's what total defence is for.
Doesn't work. Acro can be used to avoid Attacks of Opportunity, but not regular attacks.
If you Ready an action, you are, by definition, waiting for his action, which will be a regular attack (therefore not subject to Acrobatics)
Your best bet is to just Charge.
Unless you have Fast Acrobatics, using the skill eats up movement squares at a 2-for-1 price.
If Big Ugly has a Large reach weapon that's probably going to give him an effective reach of 20' (assuming he's a large creature). Lucky for you, it doesn't mean he threatens the entire 20' area. Just the perimeter, where the head of the weapon is.
That's the part you need to tumble through.
You begin your charge and step into his threat zone at 20' away from him. As you exit that threatened square you'll Provoke, so you need to roll acro. Let's assume you beat his CMD. That square costs 10' of movement and you are through the danger zone. You've moved in 10 feet, and then acro'd 5 more, for a total of 20' of movement used. You have 40' left, which is plenty. You move the rest of the distance normally and stab him in the face.
If he threatens with his Natural Reach and has claws or armor spikes or something, you should still have enough movement left to tumble a second time.
Getting to the level of defense I need to effectively block a maximum of +27 to hit, with 3d8+9 damage against this level 3 or 4 inquisitor at level 2 is something I can't accomplish.
I have 16AC, total defense puts that up to 20. If I had Two-Weapon Defense and 3 ranks in acrobatics, I could get up to 23AC but that's still not enough to duke it out with slightly more favourable odds when you enemy has fast healing 1 and can get his AC to 20 or 22 when I only have a +4 to hit with each weapon.
So, my my workings, if I can't use acrobatics in that way (you can in real life, but I've been told not to compare :p), I'd have an AC of 20 if standing Total Defense, then would have to hope the first attack would miss, so on my next round I can use acrobatics to roll beside the guy and get one attack off, as you can't full round attack if you move.
Perhaps I will have to trade Combat Expertise for Step up then.
Still, if you win initiative against a mounted foe, you ready an action to roll to the side as it charges you, it will then miss and you can walk up to it or charge, so I guess it's just the dealing with reach and broken damage routine that poses the issue.
So you're not limited to one tumble per movement?
His blind spots are 15ft and 5ft (so 3 squares away and right next to him). His Large Reach Weapon and Natural Attack cover the 10 and 20ft squares.
My build atm without giving too much away is Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise, with a +5 on Acrobatics.
The opening round in the arena fight is always considered a surprise round, so charging is only at normal 30 speed and there's about a 45 foot gap between us. So I can't activate Total Defense either, as we're limited to a single attack or move action at the start of the match.
Edit: I can always swap out Combat Expertise for Step Up, as I haven't started playing this character yet. I'd just need to shuffle the build around a bit.
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You must ready an action to (fast) tumble to be adjacent to the big guy, and the trigger is 'as he attacks'.
You are 45-ft apart, you've readied so you're waiting for him. He charges you and must attack as soon as he gets within reach. At the moment he starts to attack his movement is finished (charge is a full-round action, or standard action in the surprise round). At that point it triggers your readied action and you tumble through threatened squares rolling an acrobatics check to avoid provoking an AoO (only one needed per opponent per move). When you finish your move you are adjacent to him and he is committed to the attack. If he doesn't threaten adjacent squares then he can't target you and his attack (at the end of his charge is wasted.
You are now both acting on the same initiative, but you go first. Good luck with that full attack. : )
Okay, so with my readied action, say I did it exactly as above (was pretty much my plan), his charge is interrupted but I've rolled around to the side of him and am still in reach of his weapon. Would he still get his attack off if I succeeded on my tumble?
Option 2 is roll 10ft to the side when he charges me, so if he stops in my square, I can 5 foot step and full attack. Though, I doubt he would stop in my square as when charging, you move past your target (especially due to the no square sharing rule), so I could get away with tumbling backwards perhaps, trying to guess where he'll stop, getting myself 10ft away to 5ft step on my next go and full attack.
I have one last question in regard to the charge routine.
If the opponent readies an action to attack me when I get in range (I won't know this) and I've stated that I will tumble at those two specific points (10ft and 20ft), would he still hit me, or would he miss because he's readied an action but I've triggered and successfully outrolled the AoO for passing through those areas.
So, what would happen if I succeeded in my acrobatics when he's readied an attack for when I get into his range?
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Okay, so with my readied action, say I did it exactly as above (was pretty much my plan), his charge is interrupted but I've rolled around to the side of him and am still in reach of his weapon. Would he still get his attack off if I succeeded on my tumble?
Your tumble does two things: it moves you from where you are as he takes the attack at the end of his charge to a square that you hope he doesn't threaten yet is still either adjacent to him or within a 5-foot step so that you can get a full attack on your next turn; and the tumble also gives you a chance to avoid the AoOs that such movement would normally provoke.
The tumble does not let you avoid his normal attack with an acrobatics skill roll! It lets you avoid his normal attack only if you aren't in a square he threatens as he takes that normal attack! So, if your movement, tumbling or not, ends in a square which he threatens then yes he can attack you with the normal attack.
Option 2 is roll 10ft to the side when he charges me, so if he stops in my square, I can 5 foot step and full attack. Though, I doubt he would stop in my square as when charging, you move past your target (especially due to the no square sharing rule), so I could get away with tumbling backwards perhaps, trying to guess where he'll stop, getting myself 10ft away to 5ft step on my next go and full attack.
If he charges then he must stop in the first square from which he threatens your space. You have triggered your tumble to take place after this movement is complete but just before he attacks. If you didn't trigger your readied action until after his movement is finished then, after your tumble, he could move some more if he had any movement left. This movement must be in the same straight line as the rest of the charge, so depending on exact positioning, he could still move to a square which threatens you, or he could keep moving and not get an attack but far enough away so that you couldn't get a full attack yourself. That's why you have to be careful with the exact wording of your trigger; after his charging movement is complete and as he is about to execute the attack at the end of the charge.
I have one last question in regard to the charge routine.
If the opponent readies an action to attack me when I get in range (I won't know this) and I've stated that I will tumble at those two specific points (10ft and 20ft), would he still hit me, or would he miss because he's readied an action but I've triggered and successfully outrolled the AoO for passing through those areas.
So, what would happen if I succeeded in my acrobatics when he's readied an attack for when I get into his range?
You're out of luck! If he readies an action to attack you as soon as you are in range, then that attack is his 'normal' attack. Acrobatics lets you roll to avoid provoking an AoO, but his normal attack is not an AoO and your tumble will not help you.
The movement you make may well still provoke as normal (as well as trigger his readied action), but your tumble will help you against those.
But if his natural attacks cover 10ft range, surely being within 5ft of that prevents him from being able to attack because it would be awkward for him to get his arms there?
Same for the weapon. With reach, as far as I know, you're at set distances that can't be changed, so can only attack at 10ft with a 10ft natural attack and 20ft with a 20ft reach weapon.
In one of the matches I saw, a character playing smart got within 15ft range and the guy with the 20ft reach weapon couldn't touch him in that range.
The rules for reach weapons are not the same as those for natural attacks.
Natural reach Scroll to the bottom. Read what Sean Reynolds wrote.
As far as I understand, the readied action rules don't actually allow you to interrupt someone's turn. Only Immediate actions do that, and I don't think Readied Actions are Immediate.
Anyone have the rules quotation handy? I don't have the time to look up the specifics.
Yeah, sorry dude, natural weapons can have a larger reach (think troll) and still hit every square within 5 feet. Against a large creature with both a reach weapon and natural weapons (or enlarged medium critter with armor spikes and a reach weapon) your are just out of luck for a sweet spot to not get hit.
Man, that's painful!
Until I can get Improved Disarm, that's going to be devastating!
Still, I guess I can make a disarm attempt beforehand, triggering an AoO which I can prep for by stating I'll use Acrobatics to dodge any attacks while attempting the disarm.
Hmm...
Otherwise there's always the game of stand defensively, wait for opponent to come to you where they attack, then you attack and roll backwards where they then come to you again, attacking, where you then attack and roll back once again with acrobatics to avoid BOTH AoO's each time.
Gonna have to pump that Acrobatics stat up from a +5 when I can afford to. Boots of Springing and Striding would be good.
Edit: Actually, disarming a reach weapon, I'd imagine you still have to be within 5ft of the opponent wielding it, not just within the 10ft range of the weapon?
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Still, I guess I can make a disarm attempt beforehand, triggering an AoO which I can prep for by stating I'll use Acrobatics to dodge any attacks while attempting the disarm.
If you mean that you'll use acrobatics to avoid the AoO provoked by your attempt to disarm, you're out of luck again! The only AoOs that acrobatics can help you avoid are those provoked by your movement out of threatened squares.
Well, through I guess.
Anyway, that's really really aggrevating because it means when you only have one main attack a round there is no point in getting in close to trip as they'll stand up next round, meaning when you go to trip without Improved Trip, they get an AoO on you, then when they stand, you on them.
It's a pointless slugging match, and with his defenses, AC and attack power all covered and each sky high, with fast healing (Inquisitor), there is no getting around that as a Two-Weapon Warrior who uses nothing but dual Gladius'.
I'm lost for words, especially with the inability to dodge AoO's with acrobatics. I mean it makes little sense to me that you can dodge AoO's, but only some of them. Seems a little useless to include that mechanic if it's that limited. Still, I guess from a lot of peoples perspective it is only a skill.
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You can make acrobatics work for you.
If you have an ability which lets you attack with two weapons as a standard action (such as Doublestrike), attack with both as a standard action, then use your move to tumble away. Rinse and repeat.
This is not an auto win, but it means that he never gets a full attack on you (probably just the one attack) while you get two attacks on him each round. That is better for you than standing toe to toe and both of you taking full attacks which presumably would be your 3 to his 2.
This is only a good tactic if your acrobatics is good enough to avoid most of the AoOs provoked by your movement.
1. Ready roll (acrobatics) action for when opponent reaches me and goes to attack.
2. Opponent enlarged with 20ft reach weapon reaches me and goes to attack.
3. I roll 25ft away.
4. His attack misses.
5. Back to my go.
6. I know have to charge and use acrobatics to dodge his AoO's and attack with a -2 to AC but +2 to Attack Power (unless I just move normally with acrobatics, in which case I wouldn't suffer AC penalties).
7. He's now right next to me and although he can't attack with his reach action, he can attack with his fist or pull out a weapon.
8. He 5ft steps back to pull a weapon from his arse.
9. I use step up to immediately follow him so he'll provoke if he draws his other weapon (I think it provokes. Waiting on a NO again. :p).
10. I attack on the provoke.
11. He attacks me regardless.
12. I get a full attack (2 attacks) on him and likely miss due to his AC being around 22-27 usually.
I'm guessing it will play out like that and with his damage output I think it'll be over quickly, although saying that, his reach weapon is the real problem here, so perhaps I do have a fighting chance, providing I charge and get in quick right next to him.
We'll see.
Edit: Though even then you're still having to move up to him, every time you double strike and roll away again.
It's looking like the best tactic is just to wait for him to go in for the attack with a readied roll towards him, through the damaging reach weapons range, so it can no longer hit and as long as you stay within 10ft I don't think his reach weapon can hit me, only his natural. So I would have to keep rolling around that area lol.
doublestrike isn't acquired until level 9, so I need a solid tactic for now. I guess I'll have to play about with the getting in close to attack once, then just stay in his face non stop until he hopefully drops, though my 16AC to his 22 or whatever doesn't bode well for me!
Perhaps I can ready my first action to grab sand from the ground and throw it at him, though that might not be possible in one standard action (Surprise round). If it worked it would blind him for a round possibly though.
First off, if you have enough ranks in Acrobatics, then you gain an additional bonus when using the Total Defense action. You may very well enjoy a +6 Dodge bonus to AC. See the Special section of the skill.
As said, reach is being run wrong here. If I'm a Large creature with a Lance and armor spikes, then I threaten 5-10 feet away with the armor spikes and I threaten 15-20 feet away with the lance.
Whether you want to attack or use a combat maneuver is really situational. A lot of AC bonuses also add to CMD -- Deflection, Dodge, Insight, and so forth. However, armor and natural armor bonuses to AC don't add to CMD. It's posslble that an opponent could have a high AC but low CMD, such as you often see with divine spellcasters that abandon Dexterity and wear full plate armor.
If you're 30 feet away from your opponent, and your opponent is Large and has a Reach weapon, then you're hard-pressed to get into melee range without eating an attack of opportunity. You can move 10 feet forward, at which point you're within a threatened square; now you need to use Acrobatics to exit the squares that are 20, 15, and 10 feet away from him. If you tumble at half speed, that's 30 feet (40 feet for the round). If you move at full speed, that's just 15 feet (25 feet for the round) but you're taking a -5 on your check.
I will remind you that if you take damage while using Acrobatics, you have to make another check at the same DC or fall prone. It sounds like you really don't want to fall prone by taking risks here.
I think what you want to do is find some way to lay down Cover or Concealment. How about Smokesticks? When you benefit from one of these effects, opponents cannot perform attacks of opportunity on you. This would allow you to move in without provoking attacks of opportunity -- hell, it would allow you to attempt to disarm or trip your opponent without provoking and risking a penalty on your check. But it would do the same to you.
If you have a Speed of 30 (as I suspect you do) and you find yourself 5 feet out of his reach, then consider the following type of movement: Move 5 feet toward your opponent, tumble through two squares, then move through his last square so that you are adjacent. This will cost you 30 feet of movement; you'll still have a Standard action to spend, and you'll eat an attack of opportunity, but it'll be from his natural weapon, which I'm betting does a LOT less damage than his reach weapon.
Hell, if he ever full attacks you with the reach weapon, then a single successful Acrobatics check will get you adjacent to him. You could do that every round -- and he can't attack you with his reach weapon, even with a 5 foot step.
If successful, this forces him into an uncomfortable position. He can attack you with the natural weapon, which is suboptimal damage. He can tumble away, but if he doesn't have good Acrobatics then you're getting AoOs and an opportunity to make him Prone to boot. He can move away and hit you with the spear, but if both of you repeat this, then you're getting two attacks every round and he's perhaps only getting one.
You can use acrobatics to avoid AoO, but not standard attacks, unless your GM is house ruling it. You can't substitute Acrobatics for AC, it doesn't work that way.
If you trip someone, when they stand up and provoke an attack of opportunity you can use that attack to trip them again. That is very useful!
A list of actions and if they provoke AoO
Drawing a weapons does not provoke an AoO.
When an opponent is Prone and provokes an attack of opportunity from standing up, you cannot use the AoO to keep them Prone. There is a FAQ on this.
@Troubleshooter - Okay. So my best bet is to stand defensively for him to swing his nasty thing at me (or just ready an action so when he's in range I can roll through his first two threatened squares taking up 20 foot movement, then move normally the next two, taking the suboptimal AoO. Or, I could charge with acrobatics from that distance to take no AoO if successful, but get myself right next to him?
I have Step Up, so if he 5ft steps away, I'll step up to him immediately. Then on my go I can full attack him.
His other trick is pulling a weapon out, then throwing it at his opponent and although the drawing may not provoke an AoO, I think the ranged attack would, and I'd be right next to him at that point.
I think this build really has to take advantage of being in the opponents face at all times, rolling with acrobatics to get there, but yea, I'd be stepping up each time, he'd be stuck to attacking with his weaker attack unless he rolls, and if he does and fails, I get an AoO off on him, and if it hits, he falls prone.
Okay, I guess the problem is solved then?
I know about the ranks in acrobatics for +6 TD though. It would put my AC up to 22 which may not be great, but it's better than 16. I just don't feel it's worth spending a full round action in these situations though. So what I'd do is stand still with a readied action to roll towards him (you can't do this with charge I think), then I'd take the AoO and be right next to him for my next turn, as although you can only make one move action in a surprise round, I think you can still ready a set move action that consists of a a two square tumble and a one square walk, as long as it's still within your move distance.
Then I just need to remain close with step up.
P.s. When this guys AC was on 26 (he has a tower shield that he was using for cover in this fight), 24 didn't beat his CMD and his attack power is vicious!
When an opponent is Prone and provokes an attack of opportunity from standing up, you cannot use the AoO to keep them Prone. There is a FAQ on this.
So there is. Thanks Troubleshooter, I must have missed that one.
I just wanted to chime in and say that the earlier discussion of readied actions doesn't work quite the way it was being discussed, or perhaps I misunderstand. They way I read the readied action sectino of the rules says that you can take a (1) standard, move, immediate, free action as a result of the trigger effect. This means you could either move or attack if you set the condition of after he moves or charges to attack but before the attack occurs. However, since you are smaller size you cannot attack him since he will be out of range with his reach weapon. This means you can move either towards him or away from him. If you move away you can't be hit, if you move towards him he will hit you with his natural weapon with the bonus from charging. When the round start you can use your full attack action to attack him. He can either attack you with natural weapons, or move to try get advantageous positioning. He would probably use a withdraw action as a full round action to move away from you double distance without taking an AoO. When it's your turn you could charge and attack and avoid an AoO by charging him. It will turn into mostly a game of avoiding AoO and tactical movement. In other words, cat and mouse. In either event, I don't think a ready action will let you take both a move or standard, which would be the equivalent to a full round of action since full round actions aren't listed as available actions under readied action.
Also, if you keep getting in his face and staying up close and does have natural weapons or armor spikes he should probably just grapple you since he is larger. It's not a certain thing, but grapple you will help him unless you have light weapons as well. Further more, after one round of this sequence he would probably try to trip you rather than directly attack you. If the trip didn't work he would then probably grapple you. He's not going to keep walking away and let you sneak past his main weapon and keep repeating the sequence so you can wear him down, not unless the creature is just being played as very stupid.
Tower Shield? Excellent! Those have an armor check penalty of -10, a Max Dex of +(3?), and they cause you to suffer a -2 to attack rolls. He's accepting some serious limitations for that benefit, and honestly, I think only Fighters and shield-based archetypes can get real bang out of them.
How do you feel about using a mount and wielding two lances? Lances become one-handed when you're mounted. If you charged, you'd still take a nasty AoO, but the double~ damage might be worth the drawback.
Mount would probably die unless you cheese your Ride skill, and at level 3~ you can't exceed his attack rolls as easily.
Or you could build for access to ranged attack spells. That shield helps him not at all against those, and it sounds like he's probably wearing armor that limits his speed to 20 (Enlarge Person doesn't increase your speed). You might be able to run-and-gun him.
Hahah, I'm now imagining you fighting him using a two-weapon warrior with hand crossbows and Boots of Striding and Springing. Maybe it's not optimal, but a funny thought.