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I’m a huge OGL & 3PP fan. It was the OGL & 3PP that brought me back into the d20-sphere and caused me to purchase the D&D 3e ruleset. Rather than being limited to official D&D splatbooks, there were suddenly a very large offering of products that catered to varying tastes and if you looked hard enough, you could find something to scratch your particular itch.
So while going the Pathfinder route was a no-brainer for me, I was thrilled that PF would encourage the ongoing use/support of 3PP products. I have bought & continue to buy a ton of 3PP products. However, this past weekend as I was looking through several PDFs, it occurred to me that unlike in years past, I use very few “crunch” products these days. It was a short walk to realize why:
General lack of Hero Lab support.
Yes, I know that in some cases, fan-created material is available for Hero Lab. However, in the rare instance where I go searching for it, I’m often reluctant to use it.
Yes, I know that Hero Lab is not required. However, one of the major draws for me as a GM is that PF utilizes a consistent framework for PCs, NPCs, and Monsters. Hero Lab allows me to have my cake and eat it, too – I can turn out a fully-statted, detailed character in minutes. I don’t go so far as to say Hero Lab is a requirement for PF GMs, but I strongly recommend it for the utility & value it provides.
Although it’s a nice-to-have tool rather than a must-have, as a GM with a full-time, demanding job, a wife, and kids and all of the time demands those require, I’m not willing to lose the time-saving HL gives me on NPC creation so I can focus on adventure, setting, & such.
Unfortunately, this means that most of those awesome character classes by Super Genius Games or those expanded character options/advanced feats from Open Design don’t get used. Or if so, very rarely.
I recognize that some 3PPs have begun testing the waters with HL support in some of their products. I'm officially weighing in with a "thank you" and "please, more".
I recognize that the coding of Hero Lab files isn’t an insignificant undertaking. I realize that there are costs involved. However, I’d pay more for those PDFs if HL files were included. I’d also likely buy more as I’d be more likely to use them.
As it stands, without them, I find myself leaning towards products that aren’t providing character-crunch like setting creation guides, pre-made settings, etc. or searching out publishers that are providing HL support (or are at least having Lone Wolf develop it) ala Frog God Games.
I can’t speak to the business realities of being a 3PP. I suspect that what I’m asking for may be seen as unrealistic or unfair. However, I can’t escape the conclusion that I’ve arrived at from a time/prep/value-for-my-$ perspective. As a fan of 3PPs and their products, I figured that it couldn’t hurt to ask. Maybe I’m just in a small minority. However, my gut tells me that I’m probably not.
Thanks for your consideration.
It is a significant amount of work to do it right, but its worth it to help build the community and push the envelope. Thanks for the kind words.
As you already discovered in the thread I posted today, Jon Brazer Enterprises is FULLY COMMITTED to providing Hero Lab support. So far we have 11 products with Hero Lab files and a 12 file will be coming out for one of our existing monster products shortly. The job of one of JBE's 4 people is to program Hero Lab files. We have a list of all of our products with an included Hero Lab file here.
We take our commitment to providing Hero Lab support seriously and you can count on us to provide ALL of our character options with Hero Lab files, where the program allows us.
Something else you need to consider is the time and effort that it cost to make a Hero Lab support. We got a quote to cover the NeoExodus Campaign Book for HL and the cost was just astronomical and not financial reasonable for a company of our size. There is the cost to due HL conversion is pass the cost over to the customer in an increased cost of at least 15% to 25%.
Yep, everything we do is also done with Hero Lab support. We are all kind in the same boat. With everyone's busy lives, Hero Lab, PCGen, d20Pro and other software saves a lot of time and keeps everyone on the same page. You are right, it is almost "a must have" today.
But it takes a lot of time and work, especially if you don't have a background in programing. So it tends not to be cost effective.
I am able to keep up our data files and I also try to include other's that are related to the setting. Because I know it's just not something everyone can afford to hire someone to do. You just kind of have to "DIY" when you can find the time. It's just not something many 3pp can afford or have time to do. So we all kind just have to help each other out when we can.
With the editor in HL, if you are doing a simple input with the editor, it's fairly strait forward and not too bad. But, if you are doing something that requires a "script", it can get tricky. What I do is look around for something already scripted that is similar and try to modify it to what I need. Also the HL forums has great support and many people that are willing to help out.
Also, there is great community support where people try to help out making datasets. It's at: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/hero-lab
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It's not an unfair request. Any business has an obligation to itself to understand the needs of its customers, and offer products which meet those needs. If Hero Lab support is demanded by customers, then a savvy 3rd party publisher will consider that when designing their product line. They should be thanking you for the constructive comments.
I too would be much more inclined to buy 3PP if it included HL, even at a price increase. It's worth it to me for the ability to have all of the options through the official HL add-on packets as well as the 3PP packets. Another thought is to do things where you can have one or the other or both. Example being you have a PDF/Book only for $9.99, Hero Labs only for $9.99 or both for a small discount of say $16.99. This way you'd capture everyone's tastes and make it worth your while to hire people to code the information into HL files.
I'll just chime in that it isn't always that simple.
We have been trying to get Hero Lab to support psionics for a very long time without success.
Instead, the only option has been work around solutions.
We have two folks creating herolab support for us, and they work at thier own pace because they work as interns (and they get free pdfs).
1001 Spells has Hero Lab Support, and we are working on Hero Lab support for Heroes of the Jade Oath when it is released.
It is not a small effort, and I come at that conclusion as someone who's spun up some HL material for a 3PP, then tested, then revised, and still trying to get the other deadlines accounted for.
It is a great tool, and if you wanted to get in with a 3PP, taking payment in product for conversion into HL, I would be pretty certain you'd find yourself awash in great stuff.
But that's an endeavor, no joking. If it was all you did as a freelancer, it'd still keep you busy.
-Ben.
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Yeah, I think the problem is that, while Hero Lab is a great resource, it's still kind of a niche thing. A percentage of people use it cetainly but an, I suspect, larger percentage don't. So, justifying the not insignificant amount of time and effort is hard. As others have correctly said, creating these HL versions of classes correctly with no bugs or problems is a pretty specific skill set, so many (most?) 3PPs have to rely on volunteers.
I think you have to take the stance that when a 3PP does offer a HL file with their product ( and doesn't even charge extra for it!) you should be thankful for the bonus as opposed to coming down on them when they don't ...
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And the customer in question should realize that he's asking for work to be done for free, and not a small amount of work at that. Herolab charges for each product they support, and most 3PP's are pretty tight on their budgets. So you should gauge your expectations appropriately.
OP said: "I recognize that the coding of Hero Lab files isn’t an insignificant undertaking. I realize that there are costs involved. However, I’d pay more for those PDFs if HL files were included. I’d also likely buy more as I’d be more likely to use them."
Doesn't sound like he wants something for nothing. At all.
Generally most of the products I have hl files they are extra or paid for through the Kickstarter so they are paid for one way or another. They generally are not cheap, but are worth it if you use them a lot. It is not like it is an extra dollar or two for a large product.
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I started with a pencil and a character sheet, and I'm still using a pencil and a character sheet. I feel it gives me a much greater understanding of how the rules work.
So, I'd vote for cheaper third-party products, and no HL support.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, and I do think there might be a market for such a thing, but my great preference would be to offer it as an add-on.
$x for the book
$x + $y for the book and HL
I would be okay with this being added... so long as it is not mandatory. Those of us who do not use Hero Lab would have no need for the excess product and its associated cost.
By all means, if you think there's a market for it, make Hero Lab material available for your products, but sell it separately from the material itself. That way those of us who don't need it don't have to pay the extra for it, and those who do want it can pick it up alongside.
EDIT: Yes, what rkraus said, exactly. An available add-on extra, absolutely. Part of the base cost and an addition - in both content and cost - to most products, please no.
I got turned off to HeroLab after a poor start with it several years ago.
Hero Lab has gotten ALOT better since then. The monster builder they introduced this year makes monster design a breeze. Its easy enough that I am starting to use it to double check my numbers while writing monsters. Steev, JBE's Hero Lab programmer, tells me that the toughest part nowadays is prerequisites for prestige classes. Mind you, that could be because the PrCs that we have had lately have most unusual prereqs.
To reverb the above as a company. It's a great resource and niche, but not in the main budget.
As a player, I prefer pen and paper. I dislike having laptops at my gaming table. People get very distracted.
Like in combat, "Hey did you see what was on the Chive..."
"No, did you see the troll that ate your character?"
Now if they print it out...totally fine.
I've done programming for herolab, and it's a lot of work. I love to use the resources when they are available, but if I'm going to freelance, I much prefer to do writing rather than programming. My wife has also nixed herolab work because I scream at the computer. . . . I hope to see more community support for 3pp games - if you want it, open up the editor and get to work! Then, please share.
Nick
[snip some]You're entitled to your opinion of course, and I do think there might be a market for such a thing, but my great preference would be to offer it as an add-on.
$x for the book
$x + $y for the book and HL
I volunteer for a competing product (PCGen) so I do not need Hero Lab support when I purchase a product, especially a PDF, so the above by rkraus2 works for me. If 3PPs include HL support at a surcharge, or for free, that is great. I do not wish to pay for something that I do not need.
-- david
ps. Before the bloody arguments start, Yes - I have tried HL, and Yes - it is a good product. Just not what I want.
Personally I don't use HL and many of the people at LRGG don't either. We are not really familiar with it. I'd rather dedicate more time to editing a product or working with a system/program I am familiar with than possibly deliver something I wouldn't be proud of.
I am also in the camp of the people that dont use hero labs. And I certainly wouldnt want to pay more for products for something that I dont ever use. Like others have said I'd rather 3pps focus on their content and not trying to make hero labs work. If there was one ubiquitous character generator that most people used, sure, but there isnt at least not yet.
Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge
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The Kobold Press crew is spending more time and energy on HL, and I think you'll see the fruits of that continue to roll out this year.
After initially offering HL support as a freebie on some releases, it's become clear that the work involved is not trivial. Generating those data files is a serious effort, with testing, support, and compatibility issues of their own.
But there's also clearly some level of demand for it, so we'll keep testing the waters and expanding as our limited resources allow.
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Hooray for HeroLab support! I love time that it saves me, but I do understand the reasons why many folks don't use it.
I also have a pretty strong library of 3pp products that I'd love to get more use out of, and HeroLab integration would make that even easier.
Like some folks above, I have noticed that my use of 3pp rules has dropped off a bit since my adoption of HeroLab, but I hadn't quite connected the two in my head. I suppose I could just add the info in on my own with the authoring utility, but I'm lazy.
So, where do I stand on the issue? I'd love to see more 3pp content on HeroLab, but I understand why many don't pursue that avenue. I'll still buy my 3pp products, whether they have HeroLab support or not. Those with HeroLab support, when weighed against a similar product (size, price, quality), will be the ones I'm more likely to purchase. Well, purchase first. I'll probably get the other product, too. I have a problem. Luckily, I can still get the bills paid and feed the addiction.
*edited for spelling*
While I appreciate that Rite Publishing has volunteers to write HL files for them - they don't do it for all their publications, and some are kind of low priority for getting that done. That said, I too as a GM/Player do not use anything electronic in prep or running a game. I find laptops and other devices things that generate heat on a table that is actually uncomfortable for those gaming at our table, to the point that we leave laptops, IPads, phones on a table outside our gaming room, so we don't have to be interuppted with calls - or anything electronic in our game. We are pen and pencil.
I run computers all day at work, the last thing I want is a computer in my game.
As a freelancer and developer, I'd love to see Kaidan material converted for use by a segment of my customer base. I don't need it myself, however.
Frog God Games does off HL files at additional cost for some of its material, Tome of Horrors in particular. The Razor Coast files was an at cost add on so the experiment seems to be in progress.
There's an interesting question. Question: Is the fact that we include Hero Lab files for an extra $0.50 keeping people from buying our products? I mean, do you see our products and think, "I'd buy that but it costs $3.49 and includes a hero lab file instead of $2.99 without a Hero Lab file?"
Is that the case? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
For us, I think our datasets is our main selling point. I do not have a background in writing, art, or programing (as many of yall have seen, lol). But, I was able to put together datasets when we released our material and it helped promote it.
To be fair, our datasets are free, but that is because I kind of enjoy putting them together. It's kind of like a puzzle and it also keeps me busy and out of trouble, lol.
But it is a lot of work and can be very frustrating without help. Again the HL community and HL staff are very willing to help you out and point you in the right direction.
We're working on getting more and more HL files, and when we do one they're always added to the product as a free update.
It is taking some time though and our catalog of 200 or so PDFs isn't helping. :)
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It does seem to me that, given the amount of time, effort and knowledge these Hero Lab files require to be done right, coupled with the need for support after the fact ... companies really *should* be charging extra for the Hero Lab files. I mean, it's awesome if companies choose not too, but I don't see that as being a sustainable model long term.
I would certainly hope that those folks wanting an Hero Lab file in addition to the product itself would be willing to pay extra for it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've tried tinkering with the Damascarran in Herolab, with, poor, results. That said, maybe I can import some of the Donna's Dozens into it.
Good points Marc. And it's why I tinker. IF I double what I charge for my fun stuff.. "Hmm. Nothin, Times Nothin, Carry the Nothin...
But then I'm not a publisher, I'm a guy with a chihuahua with bursts of creativity.
We're working on getting more and more HL files, and when we do one they're always added to the product as a free update.
It is taking some time though and our catalog of 200 or so PDFs isn't helping. :)
And adding a new one every week makes it even more fun to try to catch up.
To put this all in perspective, here is a response for an email I sent out about getting the Machinesmith converted for Hero Lab:
"Hi Louis, I’ll apologize this time for taking too long to get back.
I did get a chance to look over the pdf, and spent a couple hours in Herolab trying to see just how complex the Machinesmith would be to do.
Uff, you picked out a toughie on that one. The good news is it’s a small document and should be manageable. The bad news is it will require some serious ingenuity to get operating properly in Herolab, especially the tricks and just making all the new math work in general.
Terms of cost? Probably too much to make it worthwhile, based on the little bit of time I spent tooling around.
I would like to take it one for the experience and professional credit, but it might be early summer before I have a chance. Razor Coast is finally kicking into gear (we were not quite there when I started talking to you.) and free time is going to be at a premium for a couple months. Of course that project is huge and I was hoping to squeeze something else in. I don’t want to make any commitment to the Machinesmith at this time because of the complexity involved.
Thanks for all considerations."
Just something to think about...
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It might be an idea to try and crowd source the effort it takes to convert things to Hero Lab format from your fans and customers. Giving rewards to those who go out of their way to share their custom HL files with 3PP material in it, such as free PDFs for example. It wouldn't necessarily be as high quality as paying a professional to do it per se, but something is better than nothing!
Alice, this is a good idea. Crowdsource funding for 3pp stuff in herolab, perhaps with an option for those who support to put in money. Maybe there is a cabal of programmers out there who need the work?
There's an interesting question. Question: Is the fact that we include Hero Lab files for an extra $0.50 keeping people from buying our products? I mean, do you see our products and think, "I'd buy that but it costs $3.49 and includes a hero lab file instead of $2.99 without a Hero Lab file?"
Is that the case? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
As I stated above, I'd be willing to pay 25%-30% more to the base price of 3PP if they included HL. I like having options available to me and I really enjoy using HL to create my characters and my DM loves using it to keep all of our characters together.
Example:
PDF Only = $2.99
PDF + HL = $3.49-$3.99
HL Only = $.99-$1.99
I just figured something like that would be a pretty decent pricing model and cover the costs of having someone do up the coding IF there is enough demand for the HL files.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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We've considered adding HeroLab files for our products at Legendary Games, but given that none of us is really a programmer type we've decided to focus our effort on bringing out great new product rather than re-versioning existing product. It's on our radar screen but hasn't risen to the level of a priority.
Perhaps I should visit the HeroLab boards and see if some enterprising fan wants to take it on as a project in exchange for product. I think it would be a fine thing to add, but not something we have the bandwidth to do at the moment.
The LoneWolf boards for HeroLab are a very helpful community, and the community support already has implemented a number of products. Making them "official" would be a nice thing to see, and payment in-kind might help mitigate the costs.
Where it gets dicey is when the product gets... innovative... with the game rules. New feats, new classes, new monsters.. those range from easy to moderately complex to do in the editor, depending on exactly what any special requirements are, or what the special benefits do. More significant new materials.. such as new rules systems (ex. psionics) or whole new categories of magic items (ex. SGG's Runestaves and Wyrdwands) would need LoneWolf to build changes into parts of the underlying game system that are not available in the editor, and add to their ongoing to costs to maintain those new things while adding new content under their official license. That is not to say they cannot be done, but LoneWolf has its hands full just trying to keep up with the Paizo product. It would take some kind of mutual licensing deal, like the recent addition of FGG's Tome of Horrors to the material sold through LoneWolf's site, to spur that investment.
Where it gets dicey is when the product gets... innovative... with the game rules. New feats, new classes, new monsters.. those range from easy to moderately complex to do in the editor, depending on exactly what any special requirements are, or what the special benefits do. More significant new materials.. such as new rules systems (ex. psionics) or whole new categories of magic items (ex. SGG's Runestaves and Wyrdwands) would need LoneWolf to build changes into parts of the underlying game system that are not available in the editor
This is a major element. As a designer, I want to find spaces that not well developed and create rules that expand those spaces-- because people are paying for me to use my imagination, not just crank out gruntwork for them. For instance, vehicle templates are a feature in Pirates of the Western Seas, or a three stage template. Neither of those two things is terribly feasible or straightforward with HL (which I'm not even sure addresses vehicles). Same with creating things like Rune Magic, or incantations. New classes, as long as they're not too exotic, are feasible, but they're a serious labor of love. (I double dog dare you to try putting the Luckbringer or Time Thief into HL-- I'll pour the congratulatory drink myself.)
Sure, it can be done, but look at the base that was thrown out there for HL material-- it's low. ($1 to $2) The HL material needs to be written, tested, reviewed, and in someway packaged before it goes out. There will likely be art requirements-- head shots or monster portraits. Just spitballing the costs, maybe you get a coder willing to do it for $75. Perhaps your tester is willing to work for PDFs, but to be sure, call it $25. Your editor needs to be able to look at the finished PDFs/text/html and work with them. That's going to be a rare soul, just a hunch. But we'll call them another $50. I'm completely lowballing-best case-ing it here. Maybe three or four small pieces of art you can't crop/adjust/pull out of the source material, for another $100. That's about $250 for a small project with mostly straightforward code-- if they'll indulge my example, like the Legendary Games Imperial Heroes.
Setting a price point on that...I'd probably put it at $5, but that's without the benefit numbers publishers more readily know. The real sticky point is that time necessary to put things into code and then test it, and how those skills should be valued.
-Ben.
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And if you had a choice of the PDF or the HL files at the same price or a bundle with both @ 75-80% of the combined cost of the two?
Personally, I don't use HL, but I do have friends who swear by it. So I am curious as to what would be considered a far pricing model by folks ... would you pay the same price for a HL file as you would a PDF?
EDIT: What about the PDF/HL File bundle? Would you expect 10% off? 20%? 30%? More?