I am an avid fan of designing my own items and, as my groups DM, i've done quite a bit of seeding my players with home-grown items but ive hit a small idological conundrum that i'd like to ask the larger crowd here before I give the players any ideas.
An item that grants the benefits of a level 1 spell are fairly cheap,
especially if you design them using CL 1.
Using the formula to create an item that can cast a spell or maintain it constantly (lvl x CL x 2000) You can get:
level 1, caster level 1, constant mage armor for 2000 gp.
level 1, caster level 1, constant shield for 2000 gp.
level 1, caster level 1, unlimited cure light wounds for 2000 gp.
The unlimited cure light wounds effect is an obvious ban in my opinion, but the other to are less obvious.
The other two dont stack with armor or shields respectively, but they're damn good for the cost, why buy a +2 heavy steel shield if you can have this ring, its cheaper, has no check penalty and does not require a hand!
So, opinions?
Should I modify the rings to be more expensive or require activation?
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The first step to pricing a custom magic item is to always compare with existing items first.
A constant Mage Armor effect (+4 AC) is the same as Bracers of Armor +4, and must therefore cost the same. So 16,000gp.
The Shield effect is equivalent to +2 bracers, so 8,000gp at least. Thats not including the protection from Magic Missiles part.
And don't forget the additional cost modifier for multiple powers in an item. The most expensive ability cost remains unchanged, but each additional ability has its cost increased by 50%. So the Shield effect actually costs at least 12,000gp. The Mage Armor and Shield effect combined cost 28,000gp, not the 4000gp like the formulas would suggest.
Your instincts are correct here. These are broken items.
1) You shouldn't be using that formula for continuous mage armor and shield because all those spells do is give an armor/shield bonus (except for shield's protection against magic missile).
2) I'm personally wary of wondrous items having armor and shield bonuses. There's even a table somewhere that states what bonus are appropriate for what magic items. It's gamebreaking because for less than the price of a +2 armor, a character now has +8 to his AC without any of the downsides of wearing shields and armor. For a mage, that's a very cheeky way of bypassing the inability to wear armor.
3) Yes, unlimited cure light wounds is definitely a no no.
Remember that the table is mainly a guideline. When thinking about the cost of an item, you should be looking at how the item stands up against other items in the game. When a 2000gp ring grants +4 AC when a +4 Ring of Protection costs 38000gp, there's definitely something wrong there. The table only exists as a fallback if the proposed magic item doesn't compare to any existing item.
I dont think they would be constant. Items that have spell effects usually need to be activated and have durations based on the caster level, so at that price, every hour you would be reactivating the Mage Armor, and every minute be reactivating Shield.
16000 gp. Thats a monstrous price for an easily accessible level 1 spell effect....
I found out that spell effects applied at a constant vary their price according to the duration of the spell, and shield is cast in 1 min increments, which double the cost.
Also, if I design the items as use activated that reduces their all-round utility and forces the players to use them strategically, especially in the case of spells such as shield, that last only 1 minute if the items are crafted so cheaply.
Also, there was no mention of combining the spell effects into a single item :)
16000 gp. Thats a monstrous price for an easily accessible level 1 spell effect....
And? A constant Mage Armor effect is exactly the same as Bracers of Armor +4. It doesn't matter if its a 1st level spell or not - the effects are the same, so the price is the same.
Also, if I design the items as use activated that reduces their all-round utility and forces the players to use them strategically, especially in the case of spells such as shield, that last only 1 minute if the items are crafted so cheaply.
In a lot of cases, use-activated is no different from continuous. A use-activated item functions constantly when its used. How do you use a cloak? You wear it. Which can be done constantly.
If you want a cheaper item, don't use continuous or use-activated. Make it a command-activated item. Spell level x caster level x 1800gp. That drops the price for the Mage Armor and Shield effect down to 4,500gp. (Or 1,800gp if each of those abilities are in different items.) Requires a standard action to activate, and lasts 1 hour (Mage Armor) and 1 minute (Shield).
Even then, the Mage Armor effect should cost more then that. You spend only a standard action 1/hour, and you get what is effectively a constant +4 to AC.
You need to keep in mind that spells were designed to be limited use, limited duration effects. Making them at-will or continuous breaks that limitation. Even a 0-level spell effect is powerful if active continuously or at-will. For example, a ring of detect magic would be a valuable asset. Even for a wizard, that's awesome because they never have to prepare that spell, and it completely negates a major downside to alchemists and archetypes that take away cantrips.
Honestly, if your players want a "spell in a can" item, give them a wand. That's what they're for. Alternatively, you can make it have charges or limited uses per day. Even an once-per-day ring that grants you +4 armor for one hour and +4 shield for one minute is very useful.
Plus, it's a lot more fun for the players if they have to think about when to utilize their limited resources. The mage will feel good saving that ring for when a horde of zombies suddenly ambushes him. Will he feel good if the ring's effects were continuous? No, he'll just add +8 to his AC and forget all about it.
You need to keep in mind that spells were designed to be limited use, limited duration effects. Making them at-will or continuous breaks that limitation. Even a 0-level spell effect is powerful if active continuously or at-will. For example, a ring of detect magic would be a valuable asset. Even for a wizard, that's awesome because they never have to prepare that spell, and it completely negates a major downside to alchemists and archetypes that take away cantrips.
Honestly, if your players want a "spell in a can" item, give them a wand. That's what they're for. Alternatively, you can make it have charges or limited uses per day. Even an once-per-day ring that grants you +4 armor for one hour and +4 shield for one minute is very useful.
Plus, it's a lot more fun for the players if they have to think about when to utilize their limited resources. The mage will feel good saving that ring for when a horde of zombies suddenly ambushes him. Will he feel good if the ring's effects were continuous? No, he'll just add +8 to his AC and forget all about it.
Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking about.
Ive been testing the item creation system by dropping simple 1/day 1st level spell items in loot piles here and there, their favorites so far are:Locket of purity (no slot, cl 1 cure light wounds, 1/day, 400 gp on the table but I upped it to 550 gold)
Wizard's herald (wrist slot, cl 1 color spray, will sv 12 negates, 1/day, 400 gp but lowered to 350 for being less universally useful and requiring a slot).
These small "spells in a can" have been huge hits among the players and I intend to make some more, but I dont want to make any too reliable or powerful items, thats for higher level adventuring groups!
Thanks for all the reply's, I wont be giving my players perma-buffs any time soon without making them pay for it properly! If you had easy access to spells anytime, anywhere, by spending some gold then why would you need a caster in your team?
Also, about a 1/day ring of CL1 Shield, how would you price it and why?
Also, about a 1/day ring of CL1 Shield, how would you price it and why?
Command word activated item: spell level x caster level x 1800gp
1 day use: divide cost by 5So 1800gp/5= 360gp
Your formula is a bit off.
Shield has duration of 1min/level. That means the you double it's price.
Crafting needs a bit of common sense and self-control to be viable in a game. Don't make a perma Mage Armor because you technically can, check first other +AC items and compare, adjusting as needed.
@Jeraa
About that. Why is the wording so weird for it?
"Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)"
Your formula is a bit off.
Shield has duration of 1min/level. That means the you double it's price.
Only for continuous items. For all other items, there is no modifier for duration.
@Jeraa
About that. Why is the wording so weird for it?
"Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)"
It can be a little confusing, but what do you find weird about it?
Though it would probably be easier if they said "Divide by 5, then multiply by the number of charges per day." Then include a note that says "Items with 5 or more uses per day are priced as if they were unlimited use items."
The cost divided by 5 makes perfect sense when you do the math.
Lets say we have the aforementioned shield ring before dividing: Caster level x level x 1800 = 1800.
1800 divided by ( 5 / times per day)
Once per day: 1800 / (5 / 1) = 1800 / 5 = 360
Twice per day: 1800 / (5 / 2) = 1800 / 2,5 = 720
Three times per day: 1800 / (5 / 3) = 1800 / 1,66.. = 1080
Four times per day: 1800 / (5 / 4) = 1800 / 1,25 = 1440
Five times per day: 1800 / (5 / 5) = 1800 / 1
In other words, for an item usable once per day, you pay one-fifth price, for every additional time you can use it the price division is reduced appropriately, its simple math for semi-complex mechanics.
By the time you can use an item five times per day it is assumed that there is no reason not to just let the item have infinite uses, since many spells only have so many opportunities to be used per day.
Incidentally, as I proof-calculated my argument above I noticed some merit in costing items with more uses than 5 without implementing the infinite method. For excample, a 1st level Cl 1 item usable 6 times per day is worth 2160 ( 1 x 1 x 1800 / ( 5 / 6 )).
Its far from being as powerful as a constant or infinite item and is suitable for certain spells, I wouldnt give my team a Ring of Infinite cure light wounds, but a Ring of Cure light wounds 5-6 times per day doesnt sound so bad.
I'll try to address all concerns posted on this thread based upon original post. Hopefully it will add some perspective and/or food for thought.
Should I modify the rings to be more expensive or require activation?Yes because you have not priced it correctly. Look at the crafting cost table again, especially subnote 2:
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.You can see that the lvlxCLx2000 is based upon 1 hour per level spells.
The shorter the duration the higher the cost, and if we progress that to an instantaneous duration it would approach an infinite cost which is why a continuous Cure light cannot be made.
Also remember this is the price to craft this item ... along with having devoted a feat to craft. The crafter will then double this price to sell it to the players.
Using the formula to create an item that can cast a spell or maintain it constantly (lvl x CL x 2000) You can get:level 1, caster level 1, constant mage armor for 2000 gp.
This spell is minutes/level, so x2 to craft (4000), and 8000 to buy.
Is this cheaper than bracers of Defense +4, yes but those bracers have a slotless-like charcteristic as they can have armor effects added up to +8 bonus .... so they cost twice the amount... 16000.
level 1, caster level 1, constant shield for 2000 gp.
Again, This spell is minutes/level, so x2 to craft (4000), and 8000 to buy.
Again we compare this +4 Shield bonus to a +3 light shield that costs 9000, but the shield spell only protects in front of you, so if you are flanked by melee opponents (or mages for magic missiles) it only protects from one side. Also, you have used a slot for the item where the person who can wield a shield still has that slot for a different item...
You could also only spend 4000 for a +2 heavy shield, but then weight and Armor check penalty might have an effect, arcane spell failure is higher ... everything has some balance issue if you looks at it. You could then afford the 1500 for a brooch of shielding that protects you from missiles from all sides .. .at least for a time.
level 1, caster level 1, unlimited cure light wounds for 2000 gp.
AGAIN, Not possible to make as it would take infinite cost .. you cannot make a continuous item for a spell with an instantaneous effect.
16000 gp. Thats a monstrous price for an easily accessible level 1 spell effect....And? A constant Mage Armor effect is exactly the same as Bracers of Armor +4. It doesn't matter if its a 1st level spell or not - the effects are the same, so the price is the same.
But the Bracers of Armor are way off in their pricing. Assuming they are something you would buy around lvl 4 or 5; an additional spell slot costs 1k, extending a 1. level spell costs 1k; these are slotless items. Make it 24 hours instead of 8, and in return, take up an item slot and suffer the no-combo drawback of the bracers, that seems like an even trade. Bracers of Armor +4 should cost 2k.
But the Bracers of Armor are way off in their pricing. Assuming they are something you would buy around lvl 4 or 5; an additional spell slot costs 1k, extending a 1. level spell costs 1k; these are slotless items. Make it 24 hours instead of 8, and in return, take up an item slot and suffer the no-combo drawback of the bracers, that seems like an even trade. Bracers of Armor +4 should cost 2k.16000 gp. Thats a monstrous price for an easily accessible level 1 spell effect....And? A constant Mage Armor effect is exactly the same as Bracers of Armor +4. It doesn't matter if its a 1st level spell or not - the effects are the same, so the price is the same.
It is not that the bracers of armor are 'off' so much as the mage armor spell is more powerful than a 1st level spell should be, presumably to increase survivability on the lower levels. The bracers of armor are mostly identical to magical armor with an armor bonus of +0 enchanted to +4. I do not think we have to trivialize armor proficiency further by making ridiculously cheap options to bypass it.
Agreed. +1.
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This spell is minutes/level, so x2 to craft (4000), and 8000 to buy.
No, the table gives base price - price to buy, minus cost of mw weapon or expensive material components - not craft cost. The formula gives 4000 gp to buy a continuous min/level 1st level spell effect (assuming no costly components).
Is this cheaper than bracers of Defense +4, yes but those bracers have a slotless-like charcteristic as they can have armor effects added up to +8 bonus .... so they cost twice the amount... 16000.
No, Bracers of Armour are slotted. They just take the wrist slot instead of the armour slot - they're magic armour without the armour and are priced as such at base cost = bonus squared * 1000 gp. 4*4*1000 = 16,000.
2) I'm personally wary of wondrous items having armor and shield bonuses. There's even a table somewhere that states what bonus are appropriate for what magic items. It's gamebreaking because for less than the price of a +2 armor, a character now has +8 to his AC without any of the downsides of wearing shields and armor. For a mage, that's a very cheeky way of bypassing the inability to wear armor.
If they're priced according to the current guidelines, armour bonuses on Wondrous Items are not gamebreaking. Physical armour is still worth it for most proficient characters since it's the cheapest AC bonus you can get. Wearing magic breastplate might encumber you, but it gives you an extra +6 armour bonus to AC for just 350 gp more than Bracers of Armour with the same enhancement, and if you don't like medium armour the Chain Shirt gives +4 AC for 250gp and -1 ACP - or you can shell out 5,350 for mithral breastplate +1 and get +7 AC with that same -1 ACP, compared to 49K for Bracers with the same bonus. 44K is a lot to pay to avoid an ACP.
On the other hand, I don't necessarily think the Bracers should be cheaper. They might be expensive compared to a Rod of Extend to go with your Mage Armor, but Mage Armor is dispellable and does take a spell slot, and like AnnoyingOrange said Armour Proficiency is supposed to be valuable.
Items granting Shield bonuses are a better deal since the benefit is smaller (+1 or +2 AC) and the cost is bigger (free hand). Which might be why the Ring of Force Shield has to be wielded.
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16000 gp. Thats a monstrous price for an easily accessible level 1 spell effect....
I found out that spell effects applied at a constant vary their price according to the duration of the spell, and shield is cast in 1 min increments, which double the cost.
Also, if I design the items as use activated that reduces their all-round utility and forces the players to use them strategically, especially in the case of spells such as shield, that last only 1 minute if the items are crafted so cheaply.
Also, there was no mention of combining the spell effects into a single item :)
This take precedence to the formula at the bottom of the table:
AC bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,500 gp Ioun stone (dusty rose prism)
So 4*4*2.500=40.000, plus a small extra for the protection from magic missiles (that alone is stronger than a brooch of shielding).
A kind GM can say that it is a shield bonus and so ti should fall under the armor bonus:
Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp
Very cheap at only 16.000 gp (plus the cost of the MM protection).
You should always use the specific cost formula before the generic formula for constant spells.
You don't make a belt of constant Bear endurance for 24.000 gp. You make a Belt of Mighty Constitution +4 for 16.000 gp.
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I'll try to address all concerns posted on this thread based upon original post. Hopefully it will add some perspective and/or food for thought.
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level 1, caster level 1, constant shield for 2000 gp.
Again, This spell is minutes/level, so x2 to craft (4000), and 8000 to buy.
Again we compare this +4 Shield bonus to a +3 light shield that costs 9000, but the shield spell only protects in front of you, so if you are flanked by melee opponents (or mages for magic missiles) it only protects from one side. Also, you have used a slot for the item where the person who can wield a shield still has that slot for a different item...
You could also only spend 4000 for a +2 heavy shield, but then weight and Armor check penalty might have an effect, arcane spell failure is higher ... everything has some balance issue if you looks at it. You could then afford the 1500 for a brooch of shielding that protects you from missiles from all sides .. .at least for a time.
That is a 3.0 rule, there is no facing in 3.5 or Pathfinder.
The text in the shield spell that say "Shield creates an invisible shield of force that hovers in front of you." is essentially a leftover from the 3.0 edition, with no in game effect.What the spell do is all in this phrase: "It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC." The effect is at 360° and above and below you.
The problem with Bracers of Armor is, you get about 2k worth of protection for 16k. Let's be generous, and call it 4k worth for the trouble; that's still a 12k charge. And the next point of AC costs 9k.
Actually, since the +4 Bracers are a terrible purchase, the first point of AC - buying +5 Bracers - costs 21,000 gold.
That means that, if you're investing in +1 AC, buying your Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor another +1 is always a better deal. It means that upgrading a Belt of Dexterity is a better deal even if you only care about AC, and a belt of physical might/perfection upgrade is almost worth it. If your mithral buckler is +4 with +5 in abilities, upgrade that to +5 instead.
If you're buying +2 AC, that's a +6 bracer, 32k with discount. Now, you're breaking even with upgrading a +3 ring of protection or a +6 buckler, both of which are still better choices.
Most AC boosters cost 1/4/9/16/25k, some of them twice that. The bracers, given a 4k discount, cost 21/32/45/60/77/96.
The problem with Bracers of Armor is, you get about 2k worth of protection for 16k. Let's be generous, and call it 4k worth for the trouble; that's still a 12k charge. And the next point of AC costs 9k.
Actually, since the +4 Bracers are a terrible purchase, the first point of AC - buying +5 Bracers - costs 21,000 gold.
That means that, if you're investing in +1 AC, buying your Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor another +1 is always a better deal. It means that upgrading a Belt of Dexterity is a better deal even if you only care about AC, and a belt of physical might/perfection upgrade is almost worth it. If your mithral buckler is +4 with +5 in abilities, upgrade that to +5 instead.
If you're buying +2 AC, that's a +6 bracer, 32k with discount. Now, you're breaking even with upgrading a +3 ring of protection or a +6 buckler, both of which are still better choices.
Most AC boosters cost 1/4/9/16/25k, some of them twice that. The bracers, given a 4k discount, cost 21/32/45/60/77/96.
Bracers of armor dont cost what they do because of most classes, they cost what they do because of monks, rogues, and other casters that may not have access to mage armor. Keep in mind, many classes have abilities that are not usable in anything heavier than light armor, By the time you can afford them, its not inconceivable that your dex may be beyond the max dex bonus allowable with padded armor. This is another benefit bracers of armor provide. Also, many people actually keep track of encumbrance.
As an example, Think of the sneaky halfling rogue with 8 strength. You have to make a decision between carrying a second weapon, enough utility items to be use useful, and ARMOR. Even a bag of holding is too much weight to justify. Bracers of armor, are an almost Nil weight item that gives you an actual "armor" bonus where you would otherwise have none, especially when you have to min/max a character every point can count. The bracers of armor are for characters that don't wear armor, but still need to have an armor bonus so they don't fall completely behind others.
This is a fascinating conversation. I think I'd probably make the ring of Armor or Shield one that has charges...personally speaking...
So, it would operate basically as casting the spell...but you only have so many charges of it.
So I suppose that would be like it would be in a staff or wand.
level 1, caster level 1, constant mage armor for 2000 gp.
Here we go:
Caster level 1, spell level 1 2000gp base price.
Multiply by 1,5, because it has a duration measured in 1hour/level, and the closest is 10min/level. Total 3000 gp base price.
But, since there is nothing in between 10min/lv and 24 hour duration, we could houserule that 1 hour/lv should be 1x price, but thats up to your GM.
So, since it has no charges and is unlimited use, we have to consider it as having 100 charges, thus 100/5 = 0,05.
Then, we apply that to our 3000 gp, 3000/0,05 = 60000 gp for a ring of constant mage armor (or 40000 gp] if we consider it as 1x).
Not that cheap, huh?
Here is a tip, never make continuous items, make them have limited charges or charges per day.
Limited charges are extremely useful for lower levels, as the items become less and less useful as you level up.
By the way, you cannot make any of them continuous because the default rules for those items is that they either give a passive effect, using the tables mentioned by others above, or they have to be activated with a standard action.
level 1, caster level 1, unlimited cure light wounds for 2000 gp.
You could easily make FOUR wands of cure light wounds for that price, thats 200 charges for 1875 gp. Do you still think its THAT unreasonable to craft something that can cast cure light wounds unlimited?
Personally i dont like unlimited spell effects, but if you make it charged, then its fine by my standards.
The fact that you can't cast shield on another player, only on yourself, is a significant restriction of the spell. Same for most personal only spells (see invis, divine favor, expeditious retreat, true strike, et al)
Yeah but a ring of invisibility has no special modifier when calculating the base price of the item.
I was referring to the 'see invis' spell, not saying to see the 'invis' spell =)
Same goes for any item with see invisibility spell, they arent cheaper because the spell is personal.
The spell being personal makes it a lower level spell (lv2 instead of lv3), thus the final price is cheaper than if it was one level higher.
You cant base the item price on the specifics of a spell, otherwise the table would need tons of restrictions and examples. The spell level should be enough to calculate the cost.
Else every player would be doing what the original poster was talking about... making cheap-ass items with constant effects like Shield or Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, et al.
Correction, they are cheap because they ignore some of the rules when designing it. Otherwise they are often more expensive than similar items.
Perhaps why you can't make potions of personal spells.
The reason is because personal spells would only work on the caster. While potions use the formula allowing that spell to be used by anyone who consumes the item. Its two conflicting rules and so the feat takes priority.
You COULD make personal potions, but they would cost twice as much.
There are lots of spells that you shouldn't just follow the table guidelines for cost. If you want to create such an item anyway, then you need to consider other factors... bypassing the personal only aspect of spells, or casting time of said spells, etc, are definitely factors that should be considered...
Read:
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.