Goblin Squad Member
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So, I started to derail Druids, mother is calling... with this topic, but it really deserves its own thread.
What are GW's plans for Group Size restrictions? Will Dungeons be designed around a particular group size? Will the entire Dungeon be scaled for the same group size?
I'd very much like to see PFO move away from encounters that are balanced for a particular group size. I'd also like to see a single Dungeon support wide variances in group size, so that there are single-pull small-group mobs all the way up to mobs that require a "Raid" to defeat.
It seems to me that most Theme Park games need to restrict group size because the dungeon mobs drop gear directly, and they don't want that gear to be easily acquired by sending in a larger group. Since PFO mobs will generally drop materials and resources that can be used to craft loot, I think we'll be in a much better position: 1) loot can be easily divided among all characters present, rather than having to figure out a system for determining who actually gets that one piece of gear that dropped; 2) having a smaller group means everyone gets more mats, while having a larger group means each character gets fewer mats, so it's self-balancing to an extent.
We know that gear won't be the focus of dungeons in PFO, but I would like to cast my vote for the inclusion of Miscellaneous Magic Items to be distributed randomly in dungeons. With Pathfinders huge repository of items, I think PFO can really be made interesting by including these items.
I say randomly distributed just to break the "boss mob" mentality that comes with theme park dungeons.
I think t would be an interesting twist to the game, and give dungeons an extra lure aside from resources.
I'd rather see all those Miscellaneous Magic Items crafted and enchanted by players...
Why not both options? No reason items can't drop and be created really. It seems like it would take more development time to add craftable items over just dropped, but as I'm not a Dev, I could easily be wrong in thinking that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather see all those Miscellaneous Magic Items crafted and enchanted by players...Why not both options? No reason items can't drop and be created really. It seems like it would take more development time to add craftable items over just dropped, but as I'm not a Dev, I could easily be wrong in thinking that.
It's more that the devs seem to want crafters to be the main route by which equipment enters the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah I get the focus on player crafted items but its just not a dungeon if there isn't some cool loot. I mean a red dragon lair can't just have platinum ore as a treasure hoard. That 's almost literally a lump of coal in your christmas stocking.
I'm just reading the tea leaves here and like I've said I eagerly await the dungeon blog; but it looks like that's where the relics come in. The relics take the role of the cool loot at the bottom of the dungeon and the relics in turn are useful for summoning monsters against opposing nations.
It looks like the relics will be in the vein of "dragon calling egg" like Dragonlance. Or "Femur of the Necromancer" that calls undead hordes.
Again, just guessing, but that's the direction this seems to be headed and if I'm right that would be good material for Baker's meta-plot.
Yeah I get the focus on player crafted items but its just not a dungeon if there isn't some cool loot. I mean a red dragon lair can't just have platinum ore as a treasure hoard. That 's almost literally a lump of coal in your christmas stocking.
With mobs not giving exp, and with not everyone being crafters, it might be difficult to field a group to tackle a dungeon. This might never be a problem, but even though I plan on being a crafter, looking at dungeons only dropping coin and resources is pretty dull. I always loved that random chance of getting some cool magic item while doing dungeon runs in D&D.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah I get the focus on player crafted items but its just not a dungeon if there isn't some cool loot. I mean a red dragon lair can't just have platinum ore as a treasure hoard. That 's almost literally a lump of coal in your christmas stocking.
I'm just reading the tea leaves here and like I've said I eagerly await the dungeon blog; but it looks like that's where the relics come in. The relics take the role of the cool loot at the bottom of the dungeon and the relics in turn are useful for summoning monsters against opposing nations.
It looks like the relics will be in the vein of "dragon calling egg" like Dragonlance. Or "Femur of the Necromancer" that calls undead hordes.
Again, just guessing, but that's the direction this seems to be headed and if I'm right that would be good material for Baker's meta-plot.
I haven't seen anything on relics. Can you point me at some reading material, it sounds interesting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With mobs not giving exp, and with not everyone being crafters, it might be difficult to field a group to tackle a dungeon. This might never be a problem, but even though I plan on being a crafter, looking at dungeons only dropping coin and resources is pretty dull. I always loved that random chance of getting some cool magic item while doing dungeon runs in D&D.Yeah I get the focus on player crafted items but its just not a dungeon if there isn't some cool loot. I mean a red dragon lair can't just have platinum ore as a treasure hoard. That 's almost literally a lump of coal in your christmas stocking.
I've got to side with GW's emphasis that materials are collected out and crafters then work their magic before these items hit the economy. Maybe a few exceptional rare or peculiar exceptions... eg relics as avari3 alludes to.
I'm sure salvaging all sorts things will be interesting from dungeons. But equally it sounds like exceptional pve content if the range of stuff on offer is divers eg types of mobs need specialists to deal with and so on.
On the party size, I think this classic adventuring stuff could do with a range of party sizes if the above is sufficiently diverse, but atst always too few to be able to match all enemies that might be encountered so there is real duress possible in a dungeon if you're unlucky or don't back down in time and so on? And the fact you might meet another party spoiling for a portion of the spoils to send to their contractor?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... its just not a dungeon if there isn't some cool loot.
You're right. We need to be able to find "loot" in dungeons. I just hope it's never possible to completely avoid the market by getting loot from dungeons.
I haven't seen anything on relics. Can you point me at some reading material, it sounds interesting.
Perhaps he's using "Relic" interchangeably with "Artifact"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah I get the focus on player crafted items but its just not a dungeon if there isn't some cool loot. I mean a red dragon lair can't just have platinum ore as a treasure hoard. That 's almost literally a lump of coal in your christmas stocking.
Im pretty sure that one of the blog posts mention that monsters will drop coin in addition to salvage. So after fighting a red dragon Im guessing you would get a horde of coins and things like scales and dragon bone as salvage.
Personally I would prefer a system like EVEs where the npcs drop loot, salvage, and respources...but the usuable loot they drop normally low quality (meta lvl 1 or 2 mostly) and the salvage and materials that they drop are the money makers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps he's using "Relic" interchangeably with "Artifact"?
Yeah sorry for confusion. Arifacts/relics. GW has hinted they will be powerful items that can turn the tide in Nation wars(or cause them). I am guessing that these Nation warfare weapons take the role of the "uber item drop". Uber item drops that are important joker cards in the player interaction that is central to the design instead of uber item drops that benefit the individual who "rolled it".
The "Mug of Cayden Cailean" that buffs a settlements spirit score when placed in a tavern would be another example. It's got a Raiders of the Lost Ark vibe to it, and that would be very Pathfinder-like. It's also consistent with the promise that player crafted gear is the most powerful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather see all those Miscellaneous Magic Items crafted and enchanted by players...
I agree, as long as it is crafters who make the items, but Wizards and Clerics that enchant them. Yes I know I will get flamed, but you NEED spell casting in order to enchant in Pathfinder (and D&D). This is something I don't think GW should change, as I doubt it would violate any OGL issues. The quality that the item can be enchanted to (the plus or the size) should be determined by the crafter's result - a Bag of Holding could be a Small bag of Holding if T1, Bag of Holding if T2, and a Large Bag of Holding if T3. This keeps the Crafter fully part of it, but you'd still need to work with a true Arcane or Divine caster to have a finished product. It just adds one more person to the list of people working on crafting an item from the resource till final stage.
... its just not a dungeon if there isn't some cool loot.You're right. We need to be able to find "loot" in dungeons. I just hope it's never possible to completely avoid the market by getting loot from dungeons.
You'd know better than I, Nihimon, but didn't Ryan or maybe it was one of the Devs that said that most dungeon loot would be resource items and coins? I know Ryan said nothing would drop as loot that would be better than player made... So did I , as usual, miss something?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I agree, as long as it is crafters who make the items, but Wizards and Clerics that enchant them.
I don't think that's the direction they're going.
From If I Had a Hammer:
Finished gear can effectively be used as a component (along with magical essences and gems) for characters with the enchanter craft skill to apply a minor but permanent magical boost. Enchanters can also make temporary-boost consumables for gear (some of these work by temporarily supercharging the minor enchantment on the item).
... didn't Ryan or maybe it was one of the Devs that said that most dungeon loot would be resource items and coins?
You're probably thinking of this.
From Goblinworks Blog: If I Had a Hammer:
We don't intend for usable items to be dropped by anything as loot from the system. You get them by crafting them, buying them, or looting dead PCs.
I suspect we have to leave some room at the bottom of the quality pyramid for some loot drops just to help make sure low level/new PCs don't get too squeezed, but that stuff will not be meaningful to the in-game economy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, as long as it is crafters who make the items, but Wizards and Clerics that enchant them. Yes I know I will get flamed, but you NEED spell casting in order to enchant in Pathfinder (and D&D). This is something I don't think GW should change, as I doubt it would violate any OGL issues.
This isn't actually true.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
The only items you have to have spellcasting to craft are potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items. Magic weapons and armor, rings, amulets, and most wonderous items do not fall into those categories.
with not everyone being crafters,
So? Make a crafter friend. Ask your organization for help.
Like most, I support there being materials for those miscellaneous magic items that you can only get through dungeons. Maybe you stumble upon a bag full of glass eyes and realize these are required to make a robe of eyes. You contact your organization, find a wizard who'll create the robe for you, and pay him off. Voilà. A unique and cool magic item that still required teamwork to acquire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only items you have to have spellcasting to craft are potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items. Magic weapons and armor, rings, amulets, and most wonderous items do not fall into those categories.
And PFO will likely waive those requirements as well (at least for potions), as it has been stated that consumables will be the easiest things in game to craft and there will be a large demand for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Considering the difference in ability recharge rate between MMORPGs and PnP games a typical gaming group of 4 can really clean out an MMORPG dungeon where as in PnP they usually have to rest the caster after every few battles. I would like to see most small dungeons set for a typical 4 person team. A large dungeon with some really nice artifact should take most of chartered group to take down with like portable alchemist labs and forges maybe to support.
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Goblin Squad Member
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with not everyone being crafters,So? Make a crafter friend. Ask your organization for help.
Like most, I support there being materials for those miscellaneous magic items that you can only get through dungeons. Maybe you stumble upon a bag full of glass eyes and realize these are required to make a robe of eyes. You contact your organization, find a wizard who'll create the robe for you, and pay him off. Voilà. A unique and cool magic item that still required teamwork to acquire.
Seconded, the key point in everything being crafted, is that knowing crafters will be important. Making your own equipment will be the exception not the rule. Being able to make good gear, is going to come at the cost your training time, thus 2 people who craft and adventure, are going to be half as good at either as 2 people who one chose to craft, the other adventure. Adventurers who cannot craft, will fully be able to take their harvested resources back to town, where dozens of crafters who cannot adventure are just waiting to buy them and make something out of em. Making those guys unnecessary is IMO a bad idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For reference, here is a link to a thread from awhile ago where I thought some good ideas came out: MMOs? I can't see no MMOs!. I don't mean to necro that thread, however, I thought it might offer some inspiration; continue this conversation here =)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is a goblin themed area in a dungeon, I hope we can hear them sing the Goblin Song Stephen made in 2007.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like most, I support there being materials for those miscellaneous magic items that you can only get through dungeons. Maybe you stumble upon a bag full of glass eyes and realize these are required to make a robe of eyes. You contact your organization, find a wizard who'll create the robe for you, and pay him off. Voilà. A unique and cool magic item that still required teamwork to acquire.
Most def. You can still support the sociality of the game by having items be crafted, but have significant "remnants" drop off magical mobs. If that's how it works--if getting a rare magical component is necessary to getting a cool magic item, then the day you drop a displacer beast you will be like "POW! Cloak of Displacement baby!"
Pity displacer beasts aren't open game. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Displacer Beast is correct!!!
lol
Anyway, Im hoping they have some really rare items that crafters cannot make in dungeons (or wherever.) It seems like there should be those kinds of things... Stuff that were created by the powerful wizard that died 1,000 years ago.
Seemed like it will likely happen from the kickstarter stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I agree, as long as it is crafters who make the items, but Wizards and Clerics that enchant them.I don't think that's the direction they're going.
From If I Had a Hammer:
Finished gear can effectively be used as a component (along with magical essences and gems) for characters with the enchanter craft skill to apply a minor but permanent magical boost. Enchanters can also make temporary-boost consumables for gear (some of these work by temporarily supercharging the minor enchantment on the item).... didn't Ryan or maybe it was one of the Devs that said that most dungeon loot would be resource items and coins?You're probably thinking of this.
From Goblinworks Blog: If I Had a Hammer:
We don't intend for usable items to be dropped by anything as loot from the system. You get them by crafting them, buying them, or looting dead PCs.
I suspect we have to leave some room at the bottom of the quality pyramid for some loot drops just to help make sure low level/new PCs don't get too squeezed, but that stuff will not be meaningful to the in-game economy.
Thank you Nihimon. Yes, I had read both, and I am hoping to get GW to reconsider. Enchanters should be spell casters IMHO.
@ Dario, than you as well for clearing this up. I will be running a new campaign in the next month or two for PFRPG, and see I will need to house-rule some things. I already ban Gunslingers and all guns (the reason for this was I played with a Gunslinger in the party who multi-classed with Summoner and between his gun and his Eidelon he was a one man killing crew - and what was worse it was in a PF Society group. He usual killed the "boss" before most anyone even got close.), so now I will also make it that only spellcasters can enchant items. They will still need Masterwork items, but will be the only ones capable of enchanting (Enchanter Wizards will get a bonus). Still on the fence about allowing Sorcerers to be PC class - personally never liked them, but that is me. I'll let my players vote on it. Maybe only certain races can have access to it, like Kobolds have access to Dragon-blood Sorcerers, as an example.
In any case, as Nihimon was kind enough to post, loot drops will not exceed player made items, so artifacts will have to be player made, and I doubt any Crafter will have that power before they hit max skill in crafting. As someone who is planing a crafter alt, I like this idea - artifacts by their very nature are rare and wondrous, and should remain so in PfO.
As always these are my opinions, and not something I expect GW to agree to without other's input. I do hope, however, they will, at some point, revisit enchanting and maybe offer a vote on it, once the systems are further along. As a compromise, maybe GW could require some things be craftable by Crafters alone, while more powerful items will need a spellcaster to finalize the item. Happy medium as they say.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you supposition if true (and I hope it is) we will not see artifacts or relics for 2 1/2 years, plus crafting time. And I things such as artifacts will require only the grandest materials and the most skilled craftsmen and enchanters to create them. Only then will they actually have meaning.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your supposition if true (and I hope it is) we will not see artifacts or relics for 2 1/2 years, plus crafting time. And things such as artifacts will require only the grandest materials and the most skilled craftsmen and enchanters to create them. Only then will they actually have meaning.
If you supposition if true (and I hope it is) we will not see artifacts or relics for 2 1/2 years, plus crafting time. And I things such as artifacts will require only the grandest materials and the most skilled craftsmen and enchanters to create them. Only then will they actually have meaning.
I'm sure we will see artifacts within a couple of months after settlements are put in. Escalations that reach the level to spawn a "leader" are supposed to drop an artifact that benefits a settlement if they are defeated.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Thank you Nihimon. Yes, I had read both, and I am hoping to get GW to reconsider. Enchanters should be spell casters IMHO.
Hey Gloreindl. Remember that there are no strict classes in PFO, so it's not just full time wizards / clerics who are 'spell casters'. A character who mostly takes combat skills can also learn some magic, as can someone who mostly takes sneaky rogue skills.
With this in mind, I think that there will be craft skills that allow creation of enchanted items. Possibly to learn those craft skills the character will also have to learn some basic magic skills. In other words, I doubt that only full-time wizards and clerics will be able to make magic swords. But it would make sense for full-time crafters to learn a little magic before they can apply flaming holy keen scimitars.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I disagree very largely with all of the ideas of "enchanters should be spellcasters". IMO that was a necessary part of a world that the P&P game was, in which there were no players who would ever want to spend much time outside of adventuring, a crafter on his own would not level up, and be kind of a soar thumb and liability in following the single adventuring party that his story would be tied to.
Even there it was of particular annoyance to the game in many levels. Namely that since the bulk of weapons was enchants... people who wanted to be the swordsman who uses swords, is really only responsible for 2% of his weapon, and even that part is completely spit upon by a wizard with a fabricate spell, greatest irony of course being those who are most dependent on gear, are the ones who can't make it.
PFO is of course a drastically different environment, There's been no shortage of posts here of people who would like to be full time crafters, in addition of course are adventurers who want to split their time between crafting and adventuring, they too while suffering the penalties of having to split their time between the 2, and thus being only half as experienced at any role, at least get the benefit... of being able to train what they want.
I think that's the key value in the training system as described by GW... is you are supposed to train what you want, and focus less on the skills that don't meet what you like. Some would certainly like to enchant, that really could care less about actually ever seeing the line of battle, and are happy to hide behind bodygaurds. Those above all should not be forced into taking unneccesary spellcasting skills that they don't want, and IMO those skills should not be given for free, to people who haven't shown any interest or made any sacrifices for crafting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd also like to add in that I disagree all magical item crafters should have to be "caster classes". One doesn't have to know how to hurl fireballs to know how to work magic. It's just a different sort of magic.
As an aside: Enchanters (in the sense of the Enchantment school of magic) have no particular advantage in regards to the creation of magical items. That's not what the "Enchantment" in the title is referring to.
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.
All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two subschools of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.
Charm: A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.
Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO is of course a drastically different environment, There's been no shortage of posts here of people who would like to be full time crafters, in addition of course are adventurers who want to split their time between crafting and adventuring, they too while suffering the penalties of having to split their time between the 2, and thus being only half as experienced at any role, at least get the benefit... of being able to train what they want.
This does not hold true for the 8000+ kick starters who will have Destiny's Twin. Many have expressed the desire to have a full time crafter because they have the advantage of training two characters, equally.
I personally wish we had another option with Destiny's Twin. I wish we could train martial / adventuring skills as one category, and a second skill as crafting / gathering on the same character. This way we could just focus on one character and not even bother with alts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf,
I see your point, and like you, I'll likely be spending the vast majority of my time on one character, but if they allow what you suggest, those characters would have a sizable advantage, since they would be learning twice as many skills as everyone else in the same amount of time. That could potentially make things unbalanced.
Personally, I like the chance to create an alt with some real skills, either as an associate of Hobs or possibly as a total alter-ego so I can play a character without any strings attached to my main. Sometimes it's nice not having everyone know who you are...and no, not because I plan to be bandit or assassin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No character should be able to have more than one training queue actice. Even though the mechanics changed from the original idea, only earing 1 unit for 1 unit's time is approproate, even with a Destiny's Twin option. That would be 1 unit per character. Which is what your KS contribution paid for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have a problem with the way DT is now, but I don't see how having the ability to train in both areas I mentioned simultaneously would be unbalanced.
We woukd still be limited to one activity at a time anyway. In Eve I can fight or I can mine, I can do both at once but neither affectively well at the same time.
Having alts sometimes leads to behavior you might not otherwise do with your main character. But on a positive note, it also opens opportunities to play a character very different from your main as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have a problem with the way DT is now, but I don't see how having the ability to train in both areas I mentioned simultaneously would be unbalanced.
We woukd still be limited to one activity at a time anyway. In Eve I can fight or I can mine, I can do both at once but neither affectively well at the same time.
Having alts sometimes leads to behavior you might not otherwise do with your main character. But on a positive note, it also opens opportunities to play a character very different from your main as well.
Well the advantage/drawback of it, is it lessens the dependencies on others. The reason for it is pretty simple. If say in 2.5 years, every adventurer has also mixed in one crafting role... well the pure crafters aren't going to be needed. odds are a community of 20 adventurers who have capstoned their adventuring classes, will also have maxed a different crafting skill each etc... Now of course alts are the loophole that allow people to bend that rule, but that also involves them paying more etc... to make it not a slam dunk decision that everyone will absolutely make.
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Uh, I think someone should mention this feat.
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
So even in the pen-and-paper, a high-level Expert could still make supershiny swords if he wanted to.
