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Hi, im new posting to this forums but i've played pathfinder RPG for a while.
Right now im focusing at building a saurian druid and now i need to solve an important question regarding the rules of the combo pounce+rhino hide.
I've seen a lot of posts regarding this question but couldnt find an answer.
My druid is a saurian druid 6/ranger 1, i got the wildshape into dinosaurs of huge size. I want to transform into an Allosaurus (bestiary II) that has pounce+rake combo, and i want to wear the rhino hide armor.
The question is: Can i get +2d6 of damage on every succesfull atack of my pounce (including rake attacks)?
The rules involved are:
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a
single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and
take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack
makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake
attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Rhino Hide: This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition
to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor
check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage
on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including
a mounted charge.
So taking in account this definitions i would say this:
When you make a charge you MAY MAKE single melee attack, but because of pounce you CAN MAKE a full attack (including rake), rhino hide gives you an additional 2d6 of damage on ANY successful charge attack made by the wearer.
So the big question is: Does every attack of the full-attack of the pounce ability are considered charge attacks?
From my point of view i can say that in the charge because it says that you my decide to make a single melee attack after moving in the charge, and so you may decide to make a full attack in the charge because of the pounce ability, both definitions state that those are considered charge attacks for the purpose of Rhino Hide.
Another example is this one, im planning to use this item too on the same druid:
Belt of Thunderous charging:
An engraving of a charging rhinoceros
decorates this thick leather belt. The
belt grants its wearer a +2 enhancement
bonus to Strength. Treat this as a
temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
The belt magnifies the wearer’s momentum whenever she
charges, granting her a +2 bonus on bull rush and overrun
maneuvers.
Furthermore, when the wearer makes a charge
attack, her melee weaponS and natural weaponS deal
damage as if they were one size category larger than they
actually are.
So if i make my pounce charge attack all my natural attacks should get the bonus.
The numbers should look like this:
Bite:
normal 2d6, with belt 3d6
Claw:
normal 1d8, with belt 2d6
Talon: (rake)
normal 1d8, with belt 2d6
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I don't see why you wouldn't get the bonus to all of your attacks. Sidenote: The Tai-Chi Allosaurus build is built around max damage pounces. Using it would require making a new character, but you should be able to use some stuff from it without a rebuild.
EDIT: Changed the link so that it goes to the second page of that thread since the version of that build that I'd recommend(Str based/MoMS)is posted there instead of the first page.
I think it Jacobs (don't have the link handy) stated that charge benefits only apply to one attack even in multiple attacks are allowed (such as pounce).
Awhile ago, there were some questions about how pounce and lances worked, specifically whether you'd get the double/triple damage on each attack. There was a FAQ about this that said no, and one of the reasons was that in the core rulebook, there were so few player-usable methods with which to get pounce that it was not necessary to specify that it worked with just one attack. Pounce is very so much the exception to the rule, and is so rare that it's safe to assume the charger doesn't have it. Link here.
I am assuming that the same sort of logic will apply to the rhino hide, although reading the blog post again, I'm not as convinced of that as I was when I started writing this post.
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The problem here is that you can actually pounce and get rhino hide with just the core rulebook, lets say, my build but only with bestiary I and core rulebook, i wildshape into a dire tiger while wearing Rhino Hide, then i pounce and got a lot of attacks that work that way.
Then comes to me another questions:
That post mention the combo doesnt work because you had to "back and stab" again to get a second attack with the lance and that "loses" the power of the charge that is supposed to add the extra damage.
Ok, but right now im talking about 2 MAGICAL items that create a magical effect.
Besides the thing is that i am doing an attack with a different "weapon" every time so i dont have to back and stab, the main reason for me to say this is that my primary natural attacks share the same attack bonus no matter if i do a full attack and that makes me think that they are performed at the same time, correct me if i am wrong.
If that is true then i should be able to add the Rhino hide and belt of thunderous charge bonuses, to all my natural attacks.
Now im considering changing my build from 6 druid 1 ranger to 7 druid to get acces to Strong Jaw spell, another question comes to my mind xD
And also,i have totemic transformation from saurian druid, that gives me a bite attack, does that mean that i am capable of getting the feat improved natural weapon (bite)?
If that is the case, if i wild shape into my dinosaur i get the benefit of it and get an improved bite attack as wildshaped, then cast Strong Jaw on myself with natural spell and make my bite attack advance 1 more step?
If that is the case can i stack this with the effect of the belt of thunderous charge, making it advance 2 more steps?
The numbers should look like this:
normal totemic transformation (medium size character) - bite (1d6)
with improved natural attack (bite) - 1d8
wildshaped into allosaurus (huge size) - 3d6
Strong Jaw - 4d6 (or 3d8 im not sure about this)
charging with my belt - 8d6 (or 6d8)
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The closest thing I can find is the RAGELANCEPOUNCE FAQ which states that you don't get the bonus damage for lance attacks if you are able to make multiple attacks. Whether that applies here or not....
I would say the idea is probably that the first attack that hits "breaks" your momentum and the following attacks are no longer gaining the bonus damage. Even if you are attacking with multiple weapons, there is still always one hitting first, then the next, etc.
Personally, I'd probably allow the bonus damage on the full attack routine.
"Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, for two reasons.
One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.
Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)"
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Have bite with wild shape qualifys you for Improved Natural Weapon on its on, it just means it can only be used when you have a bite attack. This has been explained several times with such feats as power attack, if for example you used a belt of str to get the strength needed for it you can use it as long as you have the belt (or a high enough strength) but lose the belt you lose access to the feat.
Keep in mind that Totemic Transformation can't be used with Wild Shape, they are both polymorph effects and thus don't stack, this is different from the ability of sorcerors and barbarians to grow claws.
One thing I would take from ragelancepounce FAQ is that while your natural attacks would all the get bonus if you gain the Multiattack feat and have all primary attacks, thus be granted an iterative with one attack, that iterative would probably not apply the damage bonuses for a charge.
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Well it seems to me that its not possible to do any of the things i wanted to do, as RAW its not completely clear as RAI we got different opinions, some people say yes, some people say no. The thing is that its not well defined if the pounce full attack is considered a charge attack, i will have to ask my DM about how are we going to take this.
On the other part i guess its not possible to stack 2 effects of natural attacks considered as larger. I will revise again the feats and the rules and make some adjustments to my character, thanks for all your help and quick responses, i will leave this thread open because i think there is still things to consider and rules that need to be clarified.