Oh yes, money.
With it you can buy a lot of masterwork items to give more +2's into chosen skills.
All these options give a capacity to have a respectable set of modifiers.
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I have to agree with shifty here. Pathfinder already boosted the skills with consolidation and favored class bonuses. And no one says you have to max out every skill you have.
So far the two arguments that amuse me the most are "Everyone but the int-based casters need more skills" (Because we should penalize them for being Intelligence focused?) and "Lets give clerics more stuff" (you want to play a skill focused cleric? it's called an inquisitor)
What I can not abide, is this idea that Heroic Men at Arms are supposed to be these stupid limited constrained nobodies that can't even tie their own shoes, let alone be considered a valid member of an adventuring party.
Then don't re-inforce that mindset by not only encouraging people to dumpstat Int down to 8 (or even 7!) and then give them a couple of freebie skill points as a reward.
Skill DCs (during the levels wherein skills matter) tend to disagree. Especially with the randomness that is the accursed d20 playing along.
Examples?
Then there REALLY shouldn't be a problem here.
12 Wis, 10 Cha... allowing the 14 straight into Int.
Thats going to be a fair amout of skill points, ESPECIALLY if they then go the more skilled options raised elsewhere.
by RAW though, I am still awaiting a good explanation of why they are being shorted, unless they are self-harming by using dumpstat Int.
Actually, Handle Animal is specifically for training animals, including horses, but not actually using them in combat or riding them.
Therefore, Ride works just fine for most warrior types. You buy your mount already trained; that's what the Heavy or Light Warhorse listing in the core book is for. If you want more of a bonus, grab the military saddle.
Just wish that Ride didn't suffer the ACP!
Men at arms are basically just as potent as knights in battle, it's just that they tended not to be as well armored, as it takes a rich boy to afford mail even if its handed down and patched to heck and back. That's why knights freaked out if they lost a battle, as they'd lose all their keen gear on top of your estate paying a ransom.
Shifty, most actual knights were aristocrats. That character trait simulates that fact, by granting 900gp at first level. You can even go farther by making your first or second level Aristocrat, nobody's saying you can't.
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Then don't re-inforce that mindset by not only encouraging people to dumpstat Int down to 8 (or even 7!) and then give them a couple of freebie skill points as a reward.What I can not abide, is this idea that Heroic Men at Arms are supposed to be these stupid limited constrained nobodies that can't even tie their own shoes, let alone be considered a valid member of an adventuring party.
No, having a 2 skill points per level is what encourages you to dump INT to 7, since a Human Fighter with 7 INT still ends up with 3 skill points a level, as opposed to 4 for a Human who doesn't want to dump their INT but doesn't feel like they can afford to invest extra in it either on a 15 point buy.
The 10 INT Fighter gets one whole extra skill point a level at the expense of 4 point buy points.
If you bump the skills per level up to 4, now dumping INT to 7 has you at 4 skill points a level (1 more than he'd have otherwise), but the 10 INT fighter is actually rewarded for his investment by getting 6 a level. He's showing an appreciable advantage in skills over the guy who dumped his INT down to 7.
I said taking care of a horse Piccolo. There are a lot of things that go into having a personal mount as an adventurer that a typical Knight wouldn't have to deal with because he'd have grooms as retainers to take care of the horse when he wasn't riding it.
Near as I can read, Handle Animal is literally ONLY for training animals, little else. The DC for standard use is 10, 12 at most. Most characters can pull that off, even if the skill isn't class (or even has ranks). Ride in particular works great with combat trained horses. Pushing is the only ability the HA skill is necessary for, outside of actually training it.
Applying the animal's training is also handle animal. Yes, it's only DC 10, but to make a combat-trained animal attack something, you have to make a Handle Animal check. If the animal has been injured, it goes up to DC 12. If it doesn't know the trick already, the DC goes up to 25.Page 97, core rulebook. It's actually the first check listed, with training being covered by the last three.
And, there are the not-specifically-listed aspects involved that Kyrt-Ryder alluded to, such as proper maintenance and care of the animal.
Yeah, I was looking at the page already, as well as Ride. Turns out Ride is already used for combat trained animals. No HA check needed.
One would think that Ride already has the little bits like taking care of a mount included in the skill. HA is more for training it in the first place, like for a colt.
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As someone who's still so old-school that he (gasp!) rolls PC attributes, rather than using point-buy, the point-buy argument about dump-stats is actually one of my pet-peeves. So, instead of getting into a 'discussion' that will only lead to elevated blood-pressure, I'll simply direct the OP to the following file and let him do with it as he wishes.
SGG - Houserule Footnotes - Stocking Stuffers
Including an optional rule giving +2 skill-points per level, for all characters, but only for use in certain skills.
In my last game I made this changes to the skill rule.
Climd & Swim = athletics
Droped Spell craft totaly and made it knoweldge or perform roll based off your class.
Wiz, Sor, Alchemist= KN Arcane
Pal, Cleric, Inquistor = Kn Rel
Ranger, Druid = KN Nature
Orcale, Witch = Kn Planes
Bard = Perform
To ID a spell is Base 10 + ((1-9)level of the spell)+ ((5) Acrane and you cast Divine or vis versa)+ ((5)if the spell was not no your list).
I also gave if you in prefered class pick any 2 of three list when you leveled +1 HP +1 SKill pont or +1 other thing as per Advanced Race guild and Advanced Player Guild stuff. These 3 changes worked well for my group.
Haven't read everything, but here's my solution:
Every class get's half as much "free" skill points (1 for fighter/wizards etc., 3 for Bard/Ranger, 4 for the rogue...).
On top of this, you can gain skill points equal to your stat mods that can only be spend on the respective skills.
So a fighter with Str17 gets 3 skill points he can spend on Str-skills and all the skill points for his other stats PLUS his one bonus skill point he can spend on any skill he wants.
Makes for spezialized characters that are good at what they...are good at.
Haven't read everything, but here's my solution:
Every class get's half as much "free" skill points (1 for fighter/wizards etc., 3 for Bard/Ranger, 4 for the rogue...).
On top of this, you can gain skill points equal to your stat mods that can only be spend on the respective skills.
So a fighter with Str17 gets 3 skill points he can spend on Str-skills and all the skill points for his other stats PLUS his one bonus skill point he can spend on any skill he wants.
Makes for spezialized characters that are good at what they...are good at.
Bad idea. It really encourages Int dumping, as there is no penalty to a non-int based charater.
Examle:
Human Fighter (20 pt buy)
str 18, dex 12, con 12, int 7, wis 14, cha 14
From str - Climb, Swim (the other 2 pts are wasted, as those are the only strength based skills)
From dex - Ride
No con based skills
From wis: Profession (Soldier), Survival
From cha: Handle Animal, Intimidate
That is all of the non-int class skills that a fighter gets.
He also gets 2 or 3 bonus skills (1 from class, 1 from being human, possibly one from favored class) that he can put into non-class skills, like perception, diplomacy and possibly stealth. Or he could put a point into an int class skill he couldn't get before.
That's 9-10 skills on an Int 7 fighter.
Personally I think all skills being int based is kind of arbitrary. For instance how many dumb athletes are there out there that are likely highly skilled in acrobatics, climb, and swim, or charming but emtpy headed people that are great at diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate but couldnt do complex arithmatic? Sure Knowledge linguistics and spellcraft being tied to int makes sense, but the physical and charisma based skills gaining ranks because you are smart just doesnt sit with me.
I just usually give my players a few craft, profession, and/or perform checks for free. Works for us. :)
Ankheg
Hardwool wrote:Haven't read everything, but here's my solution:
Every class get's half as much "free" skill points (1 for fighter/wizards etc., 3 for Bard/Ranger, 4 for the rogue...).
On top of this, you can gain skill points equal to your stat mods that can only be spend on the respective skills.
So a fighter with Str17 gets 3 skill points he can spend on Str-skills and all the skill points for his other stats PLUS his one bonus skill point he can spend on any skill he wants.
Makes for spezialized characters that are good at what they...are good at.
Bad idea. It really encourages Int dumping, as there is no penalty to a non-int based charater.
Examle:
Human Fighter (20 pt buy)
str 18, dex 12, con 12, int 7, wis 14, cha 14From str - Climb, Swim (the other 2 pts are wasted, as those are the only strength based skills)
From dex - Ride
No con based skills
From wis: Profession (Soldier), Survival
From cha: Handle Animal, IntimidateThat is all of the non-int class skills that a fighter gets.
He also gets 2 or 3 bonus skills (1 from class, 1 from being human, possibly one from favored class) that he can put into non-class skills, like perception, diplomacy and possibly stealth. Or he could put a point into an int class skill he couldn't get before.
That's 9-10 skills on an Int 7 fighter.
Why should there be a penalty for non-Int classes regarding skills that have absolutely no reason to be tied to the intellect of a person?
He will have a hard time getting any knowledge skill because he is basically stupid, but can invest his 1 free skill point to slowly improve that skill.
Yes, this will give classes a lot more skills, but specialization is improved. You want to play a stupid fighter? Why, go ahead! Stupid people can excell at simple skills, too. But you will still be stupid.
There is, of course, a problem with leftover skillpoints, or with Con in general. It's not perfect, but it makes for able, specialized characters, that don't have to put extra points in Int to be good at climbing trees.
Personally I think all skills being int based is kind of arbitrary. For instance how many dumb athletes are there out there that are likely highly skilled in acrobatics, climb, and swim, or charming but emtpy headed people that are great at diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate but couldnt do complex arithmatic? Sure Knowledge linguistics and spellcraft being tied to int makes sense, but the physical and charisma based skills gaining ranks because you are smart just doesnt sit with me.
Well obviously those are aristocrats or experts or something not fighters for you see fighters are unskilled brutes as evidenced by
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I am personally of the opinion that Pathfinder classes do not receive enough skill points per level. I see too many Bruisers/Casters that dump int, and end up getting one skill point per level... ONE SKILL POINT PER LEVEL!
The issue is a result of player choice. If you choose to dump intelligence you live with the results.
Look at it this way: would you be sympathetic towards a player that dumped constitution and then complained about low hit points.
Why should there be a penalty for non-Int classes regarding skills that have absolutely no reason to be tied to the intellect of a person?He will have a hard time getting any knowledge skill because he is basically stupid, but can invest his 1 free skill point to slowly improve that skill.
Yes, this will give classes a lot more skills, but specialization is improved. You want to play a stupid fighter? Why, go ahead! Stupid people can excell at simple skills, too. But you will still be stupid.
There is, of course, a problem with leftover skillpoints, or with Con in general. It's not perfect, but it makes for able, specialized...
If that is what you want, fine. Just realize that many characters are going to have nearly maxed skills in all their class skills. Another example:
Human rogue
str 12, dex 16, con 8, int 14, wis 14, cha 14
So, that's either 15 or 16 skill points. There are only 22 general skills total, plus the 4 skills you have to take subskills for.
If you are going to go that route, you might as well just give everyone max class skills (for craft, profession and perform, choose one subskill), and allow players to add 2 skills to their list of class skills, +1 per point of int. Maybe adjust the class skill list a bit, first.
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I also felt that a few of the classes ran a little lean on skill points. While fighters could use a small boost, it seemed to me that the more scholarly classes such as Cleric, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Wizard should be more knowledgeable.
The introduction of Favored Skill Points and the Skilled trait for humans helped, but not quite enough for all classes.
The adjustments I use are minor, but I think they are enough. I want players who dump INT to feel skill-pain. It should be a choice they have to make.
This is what I came up with (in case anyone is interested):
CLASS.......ORIG.......MINE
Barbarian.....4...........4
Bard.............6...........6
Cavalier.......4...........4
Cleric...........2...........3 + 1 (knowledge)
Druid...........4...........4
Fighter........2............3
Inquisitor....6............6
Paladin.......2............3 + 1 (knowledge)
Ranger........6............6
Rogue.........8............8
Sorcerer......2............2 + 1 (knowledge)
Wizard........2............2 + 2 (knowledge)
I also give one free skill point in a Profession at first level to represent previous non-adventuring experience.
Only the classes I currently allow are represented.
I think that keeping things balanced would be staying with the 3 tiered progression. BaB, HD, skills and spell progressions should all be in tiers of 3.
BaB- good, med, poor
HD- 6, 8, 10 (sorry Barbie... Your base class features favor high con score and DR/- as is)
Skills- 4, 6, 8
Spell progression- 4, 6, and 9
There is nothing wrong with giving an int based class 4 skill points. Bonus skills for a high int is fine... If your wiz/ witch have more skills than a rogue than so be it... The key is proper customization of class skill sets.
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I am personally of the opinion that Pathfinder classes do not receive enough skill points per level. I see too many Bruisers/Casters that dump int, and end up getting one skill point per level... ONE SKILL POINT PER LEVEL!The issue is a result of player choice. If you choose to dump intelligence you live with the results.
Look at it this way: would you be sympathetic towards a player that dumped constitution and then complained about low hit points.
I don't think that anyone here argues that stat-dumping should have no consequences. I agree that there should be, I just feel that the skill points for base 2 and 4 classes is simply too low. The way you argue, it seems as though you would blindly defend paizo having created fighters and sorcerers with a base of 4 skill points. I'm trying to look beyond the rules as they are written, and more into what seems universally appropriate.
@ANYONE WHO ASSUMES THAT ALL PFDR CHARACTERS ARE HUMANS: Stop using humans as the benchmark for how many skills a Pathfinder character should get per lvl. Their special ability is the exception, not the rule.
Coincidentally, I've been working out a rules tweak for this very problem. I fall squarely in the "fighters and clerics need more SPs" camp, so if you disagree, feel free to ignore this idea.
The alpha version of my tweak is to make base skill points INT based - you get 1/2 of your INT score (rounded DOWN) as your base skill points per level. In addition, you get bonus skill points based on your class - if the class in RAW gets 2 SPs, you get no bonus points, if it gets 4 SPs, it gets 1 bonus point, etc etc.
I've only run very preliminary calculations, but it seems to me that this system (assuming an average INT score of 11) raises the available skill points of the non-INT intensive classes while not dramatically affecting those that assume high-INT scores. It also discourages using INT as a dump stat if you like having skill points to play with.
This is very much a WIP, any input is welcome.
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4+int skill ranks should be the minimun for every non-int based caster, like paladins fighters and clerics.
And why is it you believe highly intelligent people who spend a great deal of time studying should have reduced access to skills?
Do you also believe that classes not typically utilizing a high strength should receive bonuses to hit and damage in melee as compensation?
As an aside: I value skills as a player. When I build a fighter, he has 4-6 skill points/level. That is using the current rules, no archetypes.
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I am personally of the opinion that Pathfinder classes do not receive enough skill points per level.
Me too, sorta.
I find that mid to high level characters are supposed to be exceptional, and not just at the one thing they do (cast spells, hit things with pointy pieces of metal). The idea of a 18th level sorcerer struggling to swim or balance, and not knowing the information of their own adventures (knowledge skills), or stealthing past level 2 guards, is inconsistent to me. Where are the awesome heroes, if they're not the high level characters?I've always been a fan of having a generalized skill bonus by level, such as +1/4 to all class skills and +1/5 to all non-class skills. Trained and untrained rules still apply, so a Ftr20 getting +4 to disable device still does nothing without any ranks.
1. Would increasing all 2 and 4 skill-per-level classes by 2 skill points per level, and increasing everyone else by 1 be a reasonable balancing act? What about only increasing the 2 skill-per-level classes by 2 and everyone else by 1?
2. Is increasing skills-per-level by an odd number somehow wrong or taboo? Why does paizo only have even numbered skills per level?
3. Would this kind of increase in skills encourage viability in non-combat encounters without over-doing it?
I don't like adding more skill ranks because it just continues the problem of lopsided characters at high level.
I think the skill system is fine as it is. Most skills can be done without specific training it's just that the character is not better than average if they haven't trained to do it. Fighters are good at fighting and average/unpracticed in most skill areas, they do tend to have physical attributes that gives them an advantage over joe commoner. Whereas a rogue, as has been discussed in many threads, isn't great at combat. But they do practice a lot of skills and so are better at many things outside of combat. Wizards are great at casting spells, but they have a limited number of these so whilst they can excel at a skill by using magic, it is only if they are expecting to use it in advance and only for a limited time. Clerics are great at healing and okay at fighting and spells
Part of the problem arises from the low number of encounters per day problem. If the adventures were structured so that there was a wider mix of scenarios then all the classes would shine. I.e. the wizard knows they have to conserve their spells, the fighter knows he will have to pick his battles and the rogue can help pick them
Here's another idea which I found in an old document somewhere.
All characters get 1 rank per HD, selected from among cultural skills. This includes
- Craft, with the category is known by a current party member or friendly NPC willing to teach, or is among the equipment in the party.
- Knowledge (any), with the category known by a current party member or friendly NPC willing to teach, or is among the things encountered during the last adventuring level.
- Linguistics, with the language known by a current party member or friendly NPC willing to teach, or is among those used often in the last adventuring level.
- Perform, with the performance skill known by a current party member or friendly NPC willing to teach.
- Profession, with the profession known by a current party member or friendly NPC willing to teach.
The skill rank cannot be allocated to any skill which directly affects class abilities. This rank cannot put any skill above 3 ranks.
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All characters get 1 rank per HD among adventure skills. This includes:
- Acrobatics, Appraise, Climb, Fly, Heal, Perception, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.
The skill rank cannot be allocated to any skill which directly affects class abilities or feats. This rank cannot put any skill above 3 ranks. If all of these skills have 3 ranks each, the character replaces the rank for +1 hitpoint.
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well I do think that they need more skills as class skills, fighter has almost none, same as sorcerers. Skill points I don't think they need more of. yes the figher is a trained solder but why would you train a solder with anything more the basics of what you need them for. If you need a scout you train a scout, if you need a leader you train a leader, if you need a medic you train a medic. But why would you train a medic, scout, and a leader for a unit? There should be a arctype for scout that gives them the right skill sets. But a gen fighter is a solder, not anything more.
From statements like this I have to assume you have never served in the military. It's been almost 20 years now but I served for 9 years as a medic and let me tell you from my experience that they don't just teach you one single thing and figure that's enough. They DO teach basic medical skills to everyone, they DO constantly try to encourage and develop leadership skills in soldiers (at least good units do), they do teach basic combat skills to everyone, etc... Training doesn't stop upon completely basic training, training NEVER stops as long as you are in the service. They don't just rely on one person to spot ambushes or to lead.
If you need a scout you train a scout, if you need a leader you train a leader, if you need a medic you train a medic. But why would you train a medic, scout, and a leader for a unit?
You said if you need a medic you train a medic. I was a medic and I was trained as a medic, but I was ALSO trained as a leader, and I was trained to operate tactically amongst many, many other things. To think that they are going to train someone just enough to stand there like a moron and poke things is shortsighted and naive.
well I do think that they need more skills as class skills, fighter has almost none, same as sorcerers. Skill points I don't think they need more of. yes the figher is a trained solder but why would you train a solder with anything more the basics of what you need them for. If you need a scout you train a scout, if you need a leader you train a leader, if you need a medic you train a medic. But why would you train a medic, scout, and a leader for a unit? There should be a arctype for scout that gives them the right skill sets. But a gen fighter is a solder, not anything more.From statements like this I have to assume you have never served in the military. It's been almost 20 years now but I served for 9 years as a medic and let me tell you from my experience that they don't just teach you one single thing and figure that's enough. They DO teach basic medical skills to everyone, they DO constantly try to encourage and develop leadership skills in soldiers (at least good units do), they do teach basic combat skills to everyone, etc... Training doesn't stop upon completely basic training, training NEVER stops as long as you are in the service. They don't just rely on one person to spot ambushes or to lead.
If you need a scout you train a scout, if you need a leader you train a leader, if you need a medic you train a medic. But why would you train a medic, scout, and a leader for a unit?You said if you need a medic you train a medic. I was a medic and I was trained as a medic, but I was ALSO trained as a leader, and I was trained to operate tactically amongst many, many other things. To think that they are going to train someone just enough to stand there like a moron and poke things is shortsighted and naive.
I can verify this. I was also a medic in an infantry unit. I taught everyone as much medical knowledge as I knew, and learned every weapon system and piece of equipment we had at our disposal. I also got together with the RTO and learned communications, learned Arabic with the translator, and picked up just about any advice/ knowledge I could that I thought would be useful to bring either myself or my buddies home.
In combat, it is not infrequent to be cut off from half of your platoon and resources, and some times even a private can step up and offer some sage tactical leadership that the platoon leader missed out on...
I like my PF characters to be able to do similarly.
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I can verify this. I was also a medic in an infantry unit. I taught everyone as much medical knowledge as I knew, and learned every weapon system and piece of equipment we had at our disposal. I also...
Except modern Infantry is VERY DIFFERENT in that regard to how it was even a few generations ago. My service in Infantry, and particularly the skill-sets I have been provided, are awhole alien world of advanced compared to my Great Uncle as he fought the Japanese in Singapore in WWII; and in turn, his training would have been vastly different to Joe the Fighter in a fantasy setting like Golarion.
Comparing todays soldiers to those of yesteryear is pretty apples and oranges, for a start all our soldiers are literate... can't dump-stat Int. Well you aren't supposed to, I have served with a few guys that really made me wonder :)
Which is pretty mind-blowing when you think about it; the literacy levels in Golarion far exceed those of 21st century Earth.
I can verify this. I was also a medic in an infantry unit. I taught everyone as much medical knowledge as I knew, and learned every weapon system and piece of equipment we had at our disposal. I also...Except modern Infantry is VERY DIFFERENT in that regard to how it was even a few generations ago. My service in Infantry, and particularly the skill-sets I have been provided, are awhole alien world of advanced compared to my Great Uncle as he fought the Japanese in Singapore in WWII; and in turn, his training would have been vastly different to Joe the Fighter in a fantasy setting like Golarion.
Comparing todays soldiers to those of yesteryear is pretty apples and oranges, for a start all our soldiers are literate... can't dump-stat Int. Well you aren't supposed to, I have served with a few guys that really made me wonder :)
I retired nov of 12... While I think it's odd to hear Metallica on a classic rock station... I don't think of my self as a soldier of yester year... More like last year...
While I think it's odd to hear Metallica on a classic rock station...
I know that feeling all too well. When did Motley Crue become 'classic rock'?
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So the 'everyone but int casters' crowd... what about a sage-blood sorcerer? he gets less points than the regular sorcerer?
Now as for the 'more skills in general' bit...
Heal can be done untrained, as can perception, survival, etc.
So your 'average soldier' *can* heal, spot ambushes, forage for food, identify basic things (knowlege of DC < 11 can be done untrained) etc. All without skill points.
I give everyone across the board two more skill points per level. Have done for years and it dosen't cause any problems for us.
Infact the breathing room has allowed alot of characters in my games to be good at unexpected things. I like it alot and I highly recomend it.
- Torger
Yep.
And if he's keen, less time in the gym, more time in study = choice of 1hp or 1sp. Plus he can focus (medic) for higher bonuses, or... oh wait, there's already choices in game to help you build skills!