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Everyone please take a deep breath and remember the messageboard rules. Other players don't get to decide who does or doesn't have a "right" to play PFS because they are or aren't "good enough." If you don't find a particular game or the other players in it to your liking, you aren't required to play. If you feel other players are doing something objectionable, please speak to a PFS representative.
Please don't get into personal argument about it here on the messageboard, however. If you feel a post is objectionable, flag it and move on.
And I now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion of ninjas and gunslingers.
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The thing about public games like PFS is that they're open to all players. So you get the occasional player who still has a lot to learn about table top RPG, and who requires a lot of handholding until they collect enough experience to know better. These kinds of players are a REAL pain to play with, but since it's an open game you have to grin and bear it. Eventually the player will get hit by a clue-by-four, and hopefully they'll evolve into someone who's actually worth playing with.
Hint: I'm not talking about the ninja/gunslinger player.
It's a communal game and we were all new once, the fact that you've decided his build was inept and that the player is inept seems like a hard judgement to reach when you don't know if he's a ninja or a gunslinger. Offer him some helpful advice and help him improve. Posts like this don't achieve anything.
As for the ninja, I had a fighter dip ninja for a few levels, the extra class skills and the sneak attack on top of all the other bonuses really helped him and the party out, the skill monkey scout who can solo the sentries makes for a much better scout than one that isn't combat viable on his own.
I've yet to play with a gunslinger, one is queued up in our group as a replacement PC, and I'm eager to see the result. What are the gun rules for PFS? Another gunslinger consideration is what level of guns are in the world, so if he's using a primitive flintlock pistol, it could be hard to compete against more traditional builds.
Diplomacy check No offense caused!
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The forum moderators decided to delete my post. But essentially, in it I said that since some folks were piling on because they thought they had the numbers, I'm done posting on this thread. So, I'm posting this again so you'd understand why I'm not replying to your replies.
And since I'm already breaking my word, just to clarify that, I'll give some of the info requested, I looked at Warhorn, this was a lvl. 5 Ninja, who was using guns for some reason. If at lvl. 5 he couldn't do any damage, then I don't really need to play with this guy again. My cleric is also lvl. 5 and I did more damage in the module.
And since I heal like a madman, I expect others to either, HEAL, BUFF, or DAMAGE. If you do none of the above, I'm going to avoid you like the plague.
This is not me being mean, I just don't want my PC to die in a TPK.
I think of the PFS in RL terms, as a mercenary company. You go on missions with people to do jobs and to get paid. If you have an unreliable mercenary that brings nothing to the company, other mercenaries will avoid him and won't work with him.
I am RPing my PC as if he was a real person, you know, as if this was my life on the line and not some random generated character on a piece of paper. And a real person would not keep going on missions with an unreliable guy, who might get you killed. Or maybe you would. Who knows. I personally have a self-preservation instinct, I should stop assuming that others do to.
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And since I heal like a madman, I expect others to either, HEAL, BUFF, or DAMAGE. If you do none of the above, I'm going to avoid you like the plague.
What about tanking, debuffing, battlefield control, and countermeasures? And what about noncombat competencies, like sneaking, diplomacy, trap disarming, etc?
And a real person would not keep going on missions with an unreliable guy, who might get you killed.
Well, a good-aligned real person would think of that guy's future companions' safety as well, and do their best to help him be more useful.
EDIT: Also, as a point of clarification, the in-game PFS is not a mercenary company. The PCs are not mercenaries who take up contracts for individual missions and enlist the help of other mercenaries as they see fit. They are field agents under the employ of an organization which assigns them to missions at its own sole discretion. Said organization provides enough funds to stay equipped for the job; it doesn't pay you for your services like they would if you were a mercenary being hired by them.
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Jiggy, I would have to disagree on some of your points. Its not an organization like the military or like a government agency. You don't get equipped by PFS, you get paid in coin at the end of every mission based on what you brought back and PFS takes its cut. You don't get paid for a failed job, like you would in the army for example, you loose a battle and have to run with your tail between your legs, guess what, you don't get paid, a soldier gets paid no matter what.
In return PFS gets you new jobs so that you can make more money and they can keep taking their cut. Field agent is just a euphemism for adventurer, mercenary or soldier of fortune. None of the folks working for Venture Captains are obligated to work for them or to take every job. Not like someone is going to fire you or put you in jail if you choose not to take a job, which they will in an government or military organization.
If somehow my PC retires, he doesn't have to give back his gear or what he's found or looted, that's his pay. A US Marine or Soldier on the other hand has a set salary and he doesn't get to retire by taking his M-16 or his Kevlar vest with him, upon completion of service.
If a Venture Captain needs some people to do a job for him and the PC or an NPC is summoned and looks around and its the biggest group of screw-ups he's worked with before or heard off in the Society, he can tell the VC, "Sorry Cap, I'm good to go BUT not with this rag tag, band of misfits. I wouldn't trust any of them to watch my back." PFS isn't some sort of a heroic Temple of Elemental Good. They are the RPG version of Tomb Raider that hires adventurers to retrieve stuff for them.
Now having said that, non-combat competencies are good, be good at one or two things, I'm ok with that. But be ready to put the hurt on anyone or anything that's going to cross our path or make sure you can do something useful in a fight. If in a fight I know you are going to be of no use to me, I just may avoid working with you.
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A few things:
First, I wasn't trying to compare to the military or a government organization. The Society is a private enterprise. I did use the word "organization", but that was not meant to imply military/government affiliation.
Second, you make it sound like a temp agency, where you're not really beholden to the Society and you either accept or reject "jobs" as they offer them to you. This is incorrect. You have to be accepted into the organization (approved by the Master of Blades, Master of Spells, and Master of Scrolls), and then you are literally their agent. It's not until you hit level 12+ (previously called "retirement", now called "Seeker" status) that you're in a position to work with the Society on your own terms/at your leisure.
Prior to that point, you are "a Pathfinder field agent". You don't get offered tasks that you can accept or decline, you get assigned to a team and sent on a mission whether you like it or not. Heck, there's even an NPC VC (Drendle Dreng) who is downright notorious for yanking you out of bed at 3am to send you on an urgent mission (that he's known about for months ), with no time to even buy mission-relevant gear or prepare new spells, let alone decline the mission or ask for a different team.
Your PC is not an independent adventurer who gets offered individual gigs by the Society. Your PC is a Pathfinder, subject to its hierarchy and everything that goes with it. If you want to be an independent adventurer who assists the Society at your leisure, then finish Eyes of the Ten.
Now, I don't have my setting books with me, so some of the exact details might be a bit off. But your big-picture view of the in-game Society and how your PC fits into that doesn't seem to be in line with canon.
EDIT: As another example, sometimes you don't even know what your mission is until you arrive on-site.
Gunslingers and Ninja's are good for flavor.
I actually always wanted to play a cowboy type in a D&D campaign. It's just wierd enough to sound fun.
This is coming from someone who hated the concept of Shadowrun.
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@Jiggy, consider the following.
Jack got Bob killed last month. Jack got Bill blinded 2 months ago. Jack got Frank crippled 3 months ago. Jack got Jill burned half to death 4 months ago.
John is not working with Jack. And a VC who tries to force John and his other 4 buddies to work with Jack, will soon be found floating in the sewers, with his throat cut. The PFS is not an autocracy or a dictatorship without its consequences. And even a powerful VC knows that.
The VC who gets these sort of reports from proven operators about one of his Pathfinders, will soon send Jack and 5 others just like him on a mission together that will get all 6 killed. Because if he doesn't and tries to force his competent Pathfinders to work with Jack against their wishes, he will soon find that every Pathfinder with a solid reputation will leave his City and work for other VCs while all the screw-ups are sent to his City.
Your term Temp Agency is exactly what Pathfinders are. If Pathfinders find that a VC puts their lives at risk needlessly, will soon leave town and work for another VC. And the VC will be removed or replaced by the Decemvirate for failure to attract competent agents and failure to get his missions completed. Pathfinders are not slaves and they are not the private property of the VCs of any specific Chapter House, they are paid agents who accept risks of their profession, but not needless risks that endanger them pointlessly.
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@Eric Saxon: Where in the world are you getting your information? How did you come to these conclusions about how the Society works? This isn't an issue of "Here's how I choose to picture the undefined details of the Society, and I like my idea better than yours." We're talking about documented canon here. Some of your ideas about how the Society works are objectively, provably wrong.
There are scenarios where a VC summons you hastily (possibly in the middle of the night), gives you a briefing, and sends you on your way; they're not posting a job and seeing what Pathfinders it "attracts" (to use your term). If your understanding of the Society conflicts with this fact, then that part of your understanding is objectively wrong.
There is at least one scenario I can think of off the top of my head where one VC (in Absalom, I think) calls in the PCs, tells them there's a mission of which he has no details, and sends you to a Lodge in another country (the River Kingdoms) to get your briefing. And then that VC only has partial details, and sends you to a non-Society NPC to get the full details, but by that time you're already under orders to acquire the book he's offering, no matter what. If your understanding of the Society conflicts with these facts, then that part of your understanding is objectively wrong.
Some scenarios are done for one Lodge, some for another Lodge, some for the Society as a whole, some involve helping set up a new Lodge, and so forth. Nothing (that I'm aware of) even remotely hints at the idea of choosing a Lodge to work with or having your place of residence make any difference in determining which Lodge's missions you're called upon to perform. Many scenarios pretty strongly suggest the opposite - that you could be called halfway around the world just to get your mission briefing from a different Lodge. If your understanding of the Society conflicts with these facts, then that part of your understanding is objectively wrong.
So again, I ask: where are you getting your information? Because although I'd love to discuss how to handle under-prepared colleagues both in and out of character, it's only worthwhile if you're willing to let published canon trump your personal imaginings, rather than setting yourself up as the final authority on how things work.
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Some of the missions as you said are "You get pulled out of bed, go to Blacrose (sp?) Museum, there's trouble, you aren't my best choice but you are the choice I have available."
That means, if you refuse to work with Jack, who got your friends killed then you might not be in Absalom or simply told the person sent to fetch you, you've got the flu. Maybe you work in Cheliax or in Andor. By that very adventure, it showed me that you are sort of expected to be in that location, since you can't be pulled out of bed in Cheliax to take a job in Absalom. If you aren't on location to do this job, you wouldn't be doing it.
So, if your VC refuses to not pair you off with Jack, that means you have the choice to be at any other location, which means you can choose who you will or will not go on missions with.
That's the conclusion, I drew.
Now you can get angry with me with certain statements "that part of your understanding is objectively wrong" but this is your last chance to change your tone with me. Should you attempt to provoke me further, this conversation all future ones between us, are done.
Eric nobody is mad with you, and he is not being rude. He was simply stating facts he saw them. As for your last example the I think the game assumes that you were in the area for whatever reason, or it assumes you were requested to go there. That goes back to his idea of "you have no choice".
Basically the problem is that Jiggy is saying "this is how things actually are", and you are trying to say well "this is why that does not make sense."
However this is a game, and what makes sense does not always work.
ninjas are good for answering all your questions
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@Eric Saxon: I'm sorry I gave the impression of trying to provoke you; it was not my intent. I'm also not angry with you. Do please note that when I say "objectively wrong", I'm using the "incorrect" definition of "wrong", not the "morally objectionable/reprehensible" definition of "wrong". All I was saying was that "X and Y are mutually exclusive, and X is verifiable fact, therefore if you believe Y, your belief is incorrect". Nothing angry or provocative, just facts. If it sounded like I was trying to communicate something else, I apologize for the confusion. Now if you're provoked/offended by the idea of being corrected on a matter of objective fact, that's another issue altogether; but I'm going to instead move forward with an assumption of miscommunication, and perhaps we can get onto the same wavelength. :)
So! To answer the content of your post, it appears we've been talking past each other a bit. I've been talking pretty much only about in-character canon. It's clear from your post that you're mixing out-of-character decisions ("I don't want to be at a table with Player X, therefore I'm not playing here/now") with in-character events ("My character was not sent on that mission").
The reason I was talking about in-universe facts is because you were basing some of your decisions on the idea of roleplaying your character's self-preservation instinct; thus, I was trying to explain how that would fit in with the campaign setting/canon. It seems a bit puzzling to me that you're mixing that "roleplaying decision" with your real-life seating decisions, since presumably you would still avoid a difficult player even if you were both playing brand-new PCs who couldn't possibly know anything about each other. (Let me know if that presumption is incorrect and you would actually be fine with sharing a table with such a player if your characters had not met.)
In any case, since we're apparently including out-of-character decisions in this dialogue, then I'd like to point out that you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot by avoiding a player whose PCs tend to be unprepared or under-equipped for their games.
You see, if you simply avoid players whose PCs don't have their damage types/weapon materials covered (or don't have contingencies for SR, energy resistance, deeper darkness, or whatever), then they keep not having those things and you have to keep avoiding them. If instead you educate them, then maybe they correct those oversights, and then you don't have to avoid them anymore. Not only are you then saved the work of having to steer around them over and over and over agin, but you've also gained access to a wider variety of helpful teammates. Don't you think that would be a preferable goal?
Now, obviously sometimes there will be people who won't listen, and there's nothing you can do. Bugs me too, to be honest. However (and now I'm reaching back to some of your much earlier comments in this thread), you won't know if they're open to suggestions unless you try, not just because they're at X level and still don't have Y covered. For instance, my wife's archer has (at my suggestion) been carrying blunt arrows since 1st level. She's now at 6th level, and has never needed to use them. So had she been operating on her own, she'd be at 6th level with no idea that DR/bludgeoning existed in the game and would not have blunt arrows, through no fault of her own. But if her alternate-dimension self had encountered skeletons in her first scenario, she'd be packing those things the very next session. This doesn't mean hypothetical-wife is any better of a player than real-wife; it means real-wife hasn't ever encountered a certain challenge.
Similarly, all my PCs carry alchemist's fire in case of swarms. And yet, one of my PCs was 9th level before encountering such an enemy (technically it was a Worm That Walks, not a swarm, but still). Had that been my first and only character (and if I didn't also GM some swarms), I might not have had any contingencies for that type of challenge. It wouldn't have been because I couldn't/wouldn't learn, or was too cheap, or any other such thing. It would simply be that I had no reason to think that was something I needed to be ready for.
So if you game with someone for the first time and discover that they're not prepared for [whatever] at a level where you would expect it, you can't reasonably assume that it's because they're cheap or incompetent or unwilling/unable to learn. For all you know, this is the first time they've become aware of that particular obstacle and will be fully prepared for it by next week's game. (Or they might be aware of the obstacle but unaware of how to deal with it. If the first DR a player encounters is DR/—, they might have been told "you can't do anything about it" and thought that was a blanket statement about all DR.)
So all in all, it's in everyone's best interest, including yours, to educate unprepared players rather than simply avoiding them.
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@wraithstrike Most of these adventures assume that you are at a certain location and if you are not, then you are somewhere else, which is why you aren't playing that adventure.
Otherwise Paizo could say, everyone has to play this Saturday. :D You as a player are available to play sessions when time permits and you are willing. You show up and ask your VC(aka GM) I'm available for a module. The VC (aka GM) says just giving you a heads up, Jack is in town. Ooops, sorry I just got called away to go to Cheliax.
No one in PFS or Paizo can force me or any other player to play (work) with someone else, that's ultimately a basic fact.
And by that same token, no one in PFS or Paizo can force your PC to work with Jack the guy who got your friends killed and doesn't pull his own weight, when going on missions.
Sorry, who I play with and who my PCs associate with, is always going to be MY choice. I do not consider this to be an opinion or debatable, its just the way it is.
Hitting things until they're dead.
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@Jiggy Honestly, I don't mind playing with that particular player, so any other PC that he might play is more than acceptable to me. That particular lvl. 5 Ninja build that he was using, was unacceptable, so my PC saw him fumbling around and wanted nothing to do with him.
He plays a fighter or a monk or an oracle tomorrow and actually gets a decent build, I'm down to play with the player, just not with that particular PC.
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@Jiggy Honestly, I don't mind playing with that particular player, so any other PC that he might play is more than acceptable to me. That particular lvl. 5 Ninja build that he was using, was unacceptable, so my PC saw him fumbling around and wanted nothing to do with him.
He plays a fighter or a monk or an oracle tomorrow and actually gets a decent build, I'm down to play with the player, just not with that particular PC.
Okay, then why not educate him about how to improve his ninja so that you don't have to ask what character he's playing every time you see him at the table? Wouldn't that be preferable? A good ninja is a boon to any party, and you could help make that happen. Any objections to that?
Ross I think you should ask to be paid each time you make that post, instead of a salary. You would be loaded!
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Okay, then why not educate him about how to improve his ninja so that you don't have to ask what character he's playing every time you see him at the table? Wouldn't that be preferable? A good ninja is a boon to any party, and you could help make that happen. Any objections to that?
Honestly, I don't know that class, I mean I know ZERO about what it does, all I know is that, this particular PC is not up to snuff in comparison to everyone else at that level.
The other problem I'm worried about is, that its not fixable. When I decided to play my Cleric, I spent 2 weeks learning everything I could about the class, the Deieties, their spell choices, and their domains. I got hints, advice, potential builds and future goals, set up long before I started the adventure at lvl. 1 with the PC.
At level 5, that Ninja is sort of stuck with his choices. So, if the build is poor or his stats are inadequate and there is no vision or a plan of what the Ninja would look like at lvl. 8 or 9. It feels like a bit of a lost cause.
An example of this is my PC started off with 13 CON because I would get it up to 14 at lvl. 4, to gain the extra hp. But that's a conscious choice I made prior to hitting level 2. I knew my PC wouldn't need WIS to be 18, so I went with 14 + 2 for my race and at 8 and 12 I'll up it again, since I don't really need to be able to cast lvl. 7+8 spells until lvl. 13+15.
Eric sometimes you will get stuck with those guys who either don't grasp the game well, or don't care as much as you do. You will have to pick up the slack for them. Yeah, its not as fun, but if his PC is "that" bad there is also an issue with base understandings of how the game works, not just the class. If you don't feel comfortable making suggestions to him, then see if one of the other players can do so.
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There's also the issue of 'We only see this person once a month or so' so I don't know if anyone knows this guy well enough to approach him. A lot of us play in a semi-weekly group and we pick each other's characters apart and ask others what they would do differently or what's most vital in a fight.
This person I've met once and I'm pretty sure no-one else I know, knows this person from Adam. So its hard to talk to this person because we see him once a month and I doubt any of us would wish to approach him, since he's a stranger.
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Alright, I think now we're communicating. :)
Honestly, I don't know that class, I mean I know ZERO about what it does, all I know is that, this particular PC is not up to snuff in comparison to everyone else at that level.
If you don't know anything about the class, how do you know he's not up to snuff for the level? Feel free to jog my memory if I missed something, but the only fact I recall you referencing was his damage output.
Well, what if he has +15 to an assortment of monster-ID knowledge skills that didn't come up? What if he was good at disarming weapon-using foes, but that didn't come up either? What if he had great Diplomacy but no chance to use it? What if he would have done a great job of invisible scouting via the ninja's Vanishing Trick, but it didn't come up?
Heck, maybe he does great damage in certain situations, but not in others. You mention he used a gun; firearms target Touch AC within the first range increment. That means that if the ninja has his gun out and beats the enemy in initiative, he can move within range and make an attack against AC 10 that gets Sneak Attack dice. Frankly, that's not a bad idea. But if he gets crappy initiative rolls, he's not going to do as well.
So again, how do you know that it's a case of "not up to snuff" instead of "none of his capabilities came up" if you don't ask him about it?
It's as simple as "Hey, it seemed like you were struggling in that scenario. How do things normally go for you?"
The other problem I'm worried about is, that its not fixable.
...
It feels like a bit of a lost cause.
That very well could be... for that character. Maybe after some education he'll make a replacement and start over. Or maybe it's a matter of being unaware of certain gear or feats, and it's easily fixed before the next session/at his next level up. Or again, maybe it turns out to have been "one of those days" and nothing actually needs fixing. You won't know unless you ask.
An example of this is my PC started off with 13 CON because I would get it up to 14 at lvl. 4, to gain the extra hp. But that's a conscious choice I made prior to hitting level 2. I knew my PC wouldn't need WIS to be 18, so I went with 14 + 2 for my race and at 8 and 12 I'll up it again, since I don't really need to be able to cast lvl. 7+8 spells until lvl. 13+15.
Heh, I do the 13CON-bump-at-4th plan sometimes too. :)
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There's also the issue of 'We only see this person once a month or so' so I don't know if anyone knows this guy well enough to approach him.
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This person I've met once and I'm pretty sure no-one else I know, knows this person from Adam. So its hard to talk to this person because we see him once a month and I doubt any of us would wish to approach him, since he's a stranger.
That's a fair point; I don't do too much approaching of strangers (or acquaintances, for that matter). On the other hand, most folks enjoy talking about themselves, including their characters, so it can be a great ice-breaker. :)
I believe I referenced a game earlier where a new player (this was his 3rd session) had a DEX-based rogue and didn't know Weapon Finesse existed. After a while, the rest of us caught on that he would roll an attack and subtract 1 from the die roll to get his result. I'd never met the guy before, another player was brand-new, but we all asked him about it. He told us his STR score. We asked about his DEX, and he told us. Then we asked if he had Weapon Finesse.
"What's that?"
"It's a feat that lets you use DEX instead of STR for attack rolls with light weapons."
"...I like the sound of that!"
Then we finished the scenario, he leveled up, and I imagine he probably has the "Finesse Rogue" rogue talent now. :)
I for one nearly quit my gunslinger after the first couple of levels because it quite frankly sucked. Barely did any damage and took forever to reload.
I am glad I did not. Currently the character is 8th level and can destroy most opponents in one or two full attack volleys. Typically 50-70 damage a round and if I crit the target is going to be a red smear on the wall.
At the same time I was able to build in nice levels of social skills so the character often also performs the role of Face quite well.
But dear lord the first few levels sucked.
-k
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First fight was against some evil planars, he disappeared and shot them and disappeared and shot them. Really, not much damage, and the only damage he did all adventure.
In the first fight, I did more damage with one channel burst than he did in the entire fight/module. But that's unfair, since I'm built to hurt evil planars and undead.
Then we come up against the golem, and he has no ammo to do anything and he can't do damage beyond 10 dmg, to get past its 10 DR and we almost TPK.
Now, sure he might be the greatest diplomat ever but he can leave that to Clerics and Bards. Most knowledges he can leave to Wizards but even if you have the knowledge of how to hurt the monster, if he didn't buy an adamantite bullet or three, how is that knowledge of any use to the rest of us.
So, now we're only down to his fighting skills, since all other skills are not what he's being judged on. No AC to speak off and no hp either, so he can't tank, so really only down to damage output as a useful skill in a fight and in this he failed.
Our barbarian smacking the heck out of the golem for 20-30 and taking horrendous damage, monk getting the job done of making sure the golem can't get to the rest of us by blocking its path. Ninja, just sitting there picking his nose since his bullets can't get through.
At lvl. 5 I'm expecting for people to be well geared or have enough cash to buy some penetration bullets, arrows, weapons or something. At that level, anyone should have at least 10,000gp earned.
And I also expect for someone to be able to do more than 10 dmg unless they are a healer or a buffer like a bard. >10dmg per round on a successful hit, just won't cut it.
I guess the stress of the situation came from the fact that the Archer who's spot was taken, always carries 2-4 ademantine arrows. The module we finished 60 minutes earlier, (he literally ended the final boss with two shots in one round, it was some girl controlled by a magic artifact that had a hardness of 5.) And I'm thinking through the whole fight, I'm going to die because this guy is too cheap to buy a few ademantine bullets and can't do more than 10 dmg, while the archer would have helped put this beast down before I run out of healing spells.
Now I come here and most people are talking about doing decent damage at lvl. 5 with any class and I'm comparing it to the PC in question and I'm not coming up with a reason why he shouldn't be able to do more, other than a failure to build a proper PC. And I'm just not interested in telling a guy, he dude why can't you do any damage because I will feel bad for him, if I embarrass him.
I also don't want my PC to die in the next adventure because he doesn't prep and hasn't built a proper combat spec and won't have one, even if he figures it out, until he's lvl. 11. So, I'm resigned to not playing with that PC. But I guess I'll ask at the next session, if he's at my table what his damage and what his gear is like.
Let them go, and ask the other players if this is a problem... If they say so too, then come abck to us...
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And since I heal like a madman, I expect others to either, HEAL, BUFF, or DAMAGE. If you do none of the above, I'm going to avoid you like the plague.This is not me being mean, I just don't want my PC to die in a TPK........
........blah blah blah real person. Blah blah blah self preservation.
*the quote above was modified and is not a direct quote but a pseudo quote*
The original post didn't suggest that Eric was so thoroughly upset by another players low level characters inability to deal damage at low levels. Interesting.
I have a summoner who can deal, at most, 18 damage, with 6 of it being subdual. I'm sure that by your definition above you'd HATE to have this guy on your team- but he's by far the strongest character in my group. And 'by far' is a modest understatement. I scale back my combat contributions so that other players can enjoy themselves.
But you know, since my character isn't built to buff, heal or deal damage, I guess that it would be useless in your group. Nevermind that he's great OUTSIDE of combat for utility purposes and information gathering. But hey- he can't heal, buff or damage so....
And I have plans for my next character who is a monk who focuses on protecting allies and healing very small amounts of damage. Nothing -remotely- close to what your cleric can do. In fact, he'll NEVER be able to heal as well as your cleric does at level 4 or 5.
Oh, and his damage at low levels isn't particularly good. Hell, he may even have a strength penalty for less damage.
But he's a tank..and an absolute BEAST of a tank.
But since that's not actually healing (and his actual healing is not very good healing) and since he can't do noticeable damage and since he can't buff...I guess he'd deserve the axe because he sucks at everything important to role playing- which is only three things, btw.
And then there is the rogue/Wizard soon to be Arcane Trickster in my group. He's all but useless in a fight. His spells are illusions that are too weak to effect the types of things we're fighting. His physical stats aren't good for melee, his BAB is terrible for hitting things at range, even with his great dex score.
He's INTENTIONALLY not built for combat...at all. I've not once complained about him because of his minuscule or nonexistent combat contributions. Similarly, I don't complain that our Cavalier is dead weight when we're not in combat. He can bluff and has some diplomacy but he's still bad with people despite his charisma.
And what about my idea of running with a party of all thieves? The Burglar patrol. If we're all suboptimal combatants because we're focused on robbing a town blind, and none of us can buff or heal, I assume this means that every single member of the group is useless or not worth having in any party? Nobody in my game has anything adamantine. Are we bad because of it?
This guy is a 5th level ninja and using a gun 'for some reason' (the reason being he wanted to use a gun). Are you implying that any ninja of 5th level is not allowed, or should not be using a gun? Is it against the rules somewhere or is weapon and class selection an indicator of 'poor' play?
So when my scythe or greatsword wielding wizard or which walks onto the scene but has no proficiency and no intention of being a melee combatant, are you going to discount her/it/him because at that level and at first glance it seems stupid? Especially if I refuse to take any buff spells, didn't learn any when I could, have no damage dealing spells and being a wizard can't heal anyway? I can quiet readily think of a few ways that wizard/witch with the greatsword is deadly...starting at level 1 and continuing on through the levels.
Everyone has their own opinions of what is useful or good but it all comes down to circumstance. I imagine that your 100% pure combat party would find themselves immediately useless in many encounters and several battles in any game I ran since buffing, damage dealing and healing can sometimes have nothing to do with getting through a combat filled with status effects, level drains, fatigue, poisons, against enemies whose hp are not all that relevant. Now you have nothing to heal, nothing to buff for (typically speaking) and a target where dealing damage isn't the answer.
By your definition, your party would die or have to flee.
And to answer your original question: Gunslingers are good for cheesily dealing out neigh effortless damage per round....once they are at or higher than gunslinger level 5.
Ninjas are good for all the things rogues are good for, plus more. That means, combat, poisoning, debuffing via status effects, spike damage, stealth, infiltration, social problems, trickery, thievery, distraction, and several other things that I can't immediately bring to mind.
Eric, I have to thank you because, to an extent, I *may* have been like you as far as my last session. While it was different and I felt I was doing the right thing, I'll definitely reconsider those motivations in the future and either remain silent or be SURE that they are expressed for the right reasons. After seeing how your posts made me and others feel, how elitist and obnoxious they were, I don't think I could stand to consciously propagate that philosophy and be viewed as having it. So if I have taken anything away from this thread it is that I should be ever more vigilant to not behave as I've seen your philosophy suggests, and to be wary of players who have the expectation that I have to play specifically to their narrow style of gaming (in this case, only characters who are good at dmg, healing or buffing like an mmo, even when it is not an mmo).
short answer: To fill the list of classes (and one can say something like "dude!!! there is a 21 20level classes to choose one")
Long answer:
Gunslinger: to fill that hole in all campaigns and maybe let the GM´s aproach to the firearms without the fear they usualy has against those kinds of weapons
Ninja: to drop out the monk and rogue class!!
Honestly, I think that he should keep his level and gp, but change his scores a bit...
.....
And since I heal like a madman, I expect others to either, HEAL, BUFF, or DAMAGE. If you do none of the above, I'm going to avoid you like the plague.This is not me being mean, I just don't want my PC to die in a TPK........
........blah blah blah real person. Blah blah blah self preservation.
*the quote above was modified and is not a direct quote but a pseudo quote*
are...
it's one thing to play in a pickup game and anothe to play in a league game. sure everyone should have fun, but clearly there are higher expectations in one scenerio verus another.
There is such a thing as a "free rider problem, and it's legitmate. i would back eric on this. this is not a home game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
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And if Eric and posted something like:
I was in a party in a PFS game that was harder than normal and we had this one guy who was a ninja or gunslinger and he wasn't really able to contribute to the adventure (which was broad in terms of game play styles it covered), and we nearly had a TPK because he wasn't useful in combat (to the point of only dealing maybe 15 damage out of the entire series of encounters). It got me to wondering exactly why the ninja/slinger was so limited in utility. Does anyone have any thoughts? Here was an example of the situation: <insert story about gargoyle, adamantine, bullets, barbarian, etc>.
I strongly suspect he may have simply been free riding, though.
Instead what we got was: This dude in a game I played sucked. He sucked at everything. People in games should ONLY be able to do exactly three things. Heal, buff and hurt things good. You're useless if you can't. Your character shouldn't exist if you can't do these thing well. This table top rpg is an MMO and should be treated like one. The other dudes character should never have been made an why on earth did Paizo make gunslingers and ninjas if they can't fit my expectations of how their game and other peoples characters should be. *rage* <Then insert multiple posts of elitist comments>.
Can I sympathize and support the first statement? Absolutely. Can I sympathize and support the second? Uh...no.
He gave us the second (that's how I heard it).
*note* Eric did not actually say the things in my second example. It was an exaggeration (if slight) and is how it sounded to ME after hearing it repeated over the course of multiple posts for two pages. Again, Eric did not actually say any of the things in statement 2. It is merely what I took away from his comments.
I'm not a fan of cross-classing, and have played as both a Ninja & a gunslinger. Both did really well in their play-style, but I knew what role was needed of each. A ninja is essientally a rogue archetype, just like a samurai is a cavalier archetype and should be played to fill similar roles. Gunslinger has some versitilaty to the class as it has good weapon prof, decent skill set, good BAB & hp, and to top it off, weapon that hit vs. touch AC. If they are not effective in combat, you should reconsider how you're playing them.
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I am still trying to figure out how a lvl 5 monk ends up with a 33/37 ac. And how a gargoyle with a +7 to hit ever hits him so you need to do MASSIVE HEALING.... But yeh, it wasn't a normal gargoyle I guess... Also, yeh, the gunslinger needed a magic weapon of any sort and they would be rolling a 10+dex bonus of the gargoyle to hit. 10-15 damage seems kind of low unless he had to overcome the 10 DR. A +1 weapon cures that ailment. At level five, if the monk has a 33AC (HOW??) then he should at least have a +1 pistol.
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I'm starting to get suspicious of the GM in Eric's story as I read more details.
The first fight, the 5th-level ninja was disappearing and then shooting the targets (sounds like multiple times). That would be (I presume) Vanishing Trick to become invisible in order to enable Sneak Attack on those shots. Guns target Touch AC, and invisibility costs them their DEX to AC, so we're talking about multiple attacks against AC10 (less if they have single-digit DEX or are Large or bigger) that would each hit for (assuming a pistol) 1d8+3d6 damage, which is an average of ~15 damage per hit.
How did he manage to, as you put it Eric, deal only 10-15 damage total? Did they have DR10 or higher that you didn't mention (or that you mentioned but I missed)? Was the GM denying him SA damage for some reason? Was he rolling lots of natural 1s on his attack rolls?
As for the "problem fight" against some sort of gargoyle or golem with (apparently) DR10... You say he couldn't deal enough damage to punch past DR10? We just established that his Sneaks deal more than 10, and you mentioned other melee in the party so he should have been able to flank just fine (and had your uber healer to keep him up). So why wasn't this happening? Was he just afraid of getting creamed in melee? Was the GM denying him Sneak Attack for some reason (perhaps playing "in 3.5 mode")?
This situation is sounding less and less like an unprepared player and more and more like someone not understanding Sneak Attack rules. Can you speak to any of that, Eric?
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Ok, I will try to answer some questions but not all, since I can't remember everything I've read.
@Dark Immortal Not sure if you caught this or if this was deleted but our Monk is the reason we didn't TPK. His AC 38 was a beast. Also, buff or debuff comes to the same thing, so when I said I expect things, I've included the following categories: Heal, Damage, Buff(Debuff) or Tank.
If you can do 18 damage, then you can still get 8 damage per round into the enemy with a DR 10, that's not amazing damage but its not useless. He wasn't getting it done.
@maouse I have no idea how the monk gets that sort of AC, the base was lower but the bard upped it a bit and so did other spells or abilities and fighting defensively and what not, not positive since it was 2 weeks ago. As for the Gargyole having a +7 to hit, I don't know about that, since my AC is 24 and he was hitting me on 9 or 10. This was a 6 claw/1 bite/1 gore gargoyle and every time it hit, which it always did against others it did 15-20 dmg per hit. Now the monk was the only one capable of not getting hit, I was healing everyone else, while the monk kept it busy and didn't let it get through him. But if anyone else got close to this thing, it would hit them and take them to - 1> in one round.
@Jiggy I don't think the GM was the problem since this was a Season 5 exclusive, so a 4-5 star GM. But if the Ninja got caught behind the golem, it would have tore him apart with his 8 attacks, if he got caught. Also, he burned 3 of his invisibility tricks in the previous fight, where he wasn't in danger of being hit and he wasn't flanking the evil planars, just burning his abilities for no apparent reason.
Was the player 'not understanding Sneak Attack rules'? Possibly but its not something I'm all that familiar with so I would expect him to have been ready with that sort of information and know when to hold 'em and know when to use 'em.
@All If I had recorded the session it would be much easier to answer every question but it all came down to the conclusion that he wasn't much use in a fight. Also, I have a bit of a head cold right now or the flu so I'm hoping I explained everything correctly.
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This won't help people who haven't played it, but I think Jiggy is on to something.
The second encounter doesn't have DR/adamantine, he has DR/magic. Now I've been guilty as a player of not having a magic weapon by that level, although you should inform the ninja/gunslinger to upgrade his weapon. If he DID have a magic weapon, then the GM was scamming you guys.
The third encounter is pretty standard, bring your cold iron or go home. Nevertheless, a good sneak attack should have done some damage.
Tips you can give your ninja/gunslinger player:
- invest in Extra Ki. He does the most damage when he's coming out of invisibility.
- get at least five levels of gunslinger. Adding Dexterity to damage will make all of his shots count.
- Save some ki for later. He probably made an error in using his ki in the first fight to the exception of the others, and should be educated on saving resources.
Feats I would suggest for him:
- Extra Ki
- Deadly Aim, if he doesn't have it
- Clustered Shots, assuming he has ways of firing more than once per round
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This won't help people who haven't played it, but I think Jiggy is on to something.
** spoiler omitted **
Okay, then there's something definitely wrong with that first fight. Sounds like the player was making the right choice by attacking at range, but something's wonky with the damage. Either Eric's memory of 10-15 damage total is way off, or the GM was (intentionally or unintentionally) negating the ninja's damage. Presumably if the ninja knew to use his Vanishing Trick, he believed he was getting Sneak Attack. So if Eric's memory of the damage is correct, then either the GM was adding DR that wasn't there, or thought that outsiders weren't subject to Sneak Attack but let the player keep thinking it was working. Either way would be a terrible thing to do, so I'm really starting to hope that Eric is simply mis-remembering the ninja's damage output. Yikes.
As for the second fight, I've encountered GMs who mistakenly believed that the quality listed after the "/" in a DR entry is the only thing affected by the DR, instead of being the thing that bypasses it, so perhaps that was going on? On the other hand, Eric seems certain that adamantine ammo would have helped. Eric, was that a conclusion you reached yourself (out of character), or did someone make a Knowledge check and the GM said adamantine was needed to penetrate the DR?
In any case, something doesn't add up. So Eric, if you must avoid someone, you might end up needing to focus on that GM instead of that PC. :/