Then it came full circle didn't it?
While Princess Toadstool (Peach?) was indeed a helpless maiden needing rescue by Mario and Loogie, I mean Luigi, it should be noted that there were 8, yes 700% more, Toads that were also helpless and needing rescue. To suggest that the Princess, as a female, was unique in that role in that game is disingenuous.
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To suggest that anyone plays mario for the story is disingenuous.
To suggest that anyone plays mario for the story is disingenuous.
True that.
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Peach should really take care not to be kidnapped. I mean, there must be a reason she keeps getting kidnapped... =)
While Princess Toadstool (Peach?) was indeed a helpless maiden needing rescue by Mario and Loogie, I mean Luigi, it should be noted that there were 8, yes 700% more, Toads that were also helpless and needing rescue. To suggest that the Princess, as a female, was unique in that role in that game is disingenuous.Actually, there were only seven Toads that needed to be rescued, one each in worlds 1 through 7, Princess Peach (nee Toadstool) was at the end of world 8.
Also, Super Mario Bros. has a cool story if you read the instruction booklet.
Ok, sorry. There are only 600% more Toads that needed rescuing. ;P
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Well, to be fair, there is a fairly large segment of the left, especially in universities and social justice circles, that do define "=isms" as only possible against minorities and "oppressed groups", and that it is literally impossible against whites, males, etc. So she's correct that there is a different definition for it within that circle, which is why I said "different" rather than "wrong", even though it's not a definition I agree with. The battle for the meaning of words and their proper usage is one that has been going on a long time.Who makes up the vast majority of Congress? White Males.
Who makes up the vast majority of upper level corporate echelon in America? White Males.
Who makes up the vast majority of the military, judiciary, police force, and local elected officials still? White Males.
All other factors being equal who's more likely to be paid more?
It's really hard to be the discriminated party when you're still holding the bulk of the power cards. The white male power base may be in decline as far as sheer population numbers go, but they still got most of the keys to the kingdom.
Who makes up the vast majority of the 25 "worst jobs in America", the toughest, most dangerous, smelliest jobs? 85% are performed by men, but I don't see many women demanding an end to the glass cellar.
On a related note, who makes up 93% of all workplace deaths? Men.
Who makes up the vast majority of homeless? Men.
Who commits 80% of all suicides? Men.
Morale: Just because some other people with the same gender as you are rich, famous, or powerful doesn't mean a thing to all the other men out there, the ones working as garbage collectors, sewer workers, plumbers, farmers, etc.
Who makes up the vast majority of the 25 "worst jobs in America", the toughest, most dangerous, smelliest jobs? 85% are performed by men, but I don't see many women demanding an end to the glass cellar.
On a related note, who makes up 93% of all workplace deaths? Men.
Who makes up the vast majority of homeless? Men.
Who commits 80% of all suicides? Men.
Morale: Just because some other people with the same gender as you are rich, famous, or powerful doesn't mean a thing to all the other men out there, the ones working as garbage collectors, sewer workers, plumbers, farmers, etc.
That is because men don't allow them to have those jobs, obviously.
And women aren't allowed to own guns, only whistles, so it is hard to commit suicide if all you have is a whistle. You might pass out from using it too much or pop an eardrum, but death isn't likely.
In the Mario game that I most remember, the 16-bit version of Super Mario Bros. 1 (in S. M. All-Stars), you rescued 1 Toad at the end of level 1, 2 at the end of level 2, and so on, until you rescued 7 at the end of level 7. That makes 28 in all, or 2700% more.
(Of course, the genders of those Toads were unclear.)
And yes, Sissyl, that Princess Toadstool really should take a few lessons in self-defense.
Nah. She needs to stop dressing like a cupcake. She goes dressed like that, OF COURSE she gets kidnapped!
Nah. She needs to stop dressing like a cupcake. She goes dressed like that, OF COURSE she gets kidnapped!
mmmmm, cupcakes.
I'd rather see a cupcake than a muffin top. LOL
While I am reluctant to mention this... the "Equality of Opportunity" is a lie. It doesn't exist except as an idea that never gets achieved.
Look at it this way:
Lots of people apply for a white collar job, people of all shapes, genders, and colors. The hiring manager FIRST sorts them out by removing anyone under qualified (they can't do the job) or over qualified (they are likely to leave soon for a better job). He now has a small stack of applicants to interview. Your remaining qualifications are no longer relevant as everyone left in the stack can do the job. He is now looking for someone he wants to work with. In this case he is FAR more likely to select someone similar to himself and who he would like to work with. If the hiring manager is a Black Man then you have a better shot at the job if you are also a black man then a white man or woman of any color. He is also going to factor in your appearance and personality. The person ideally suited to get that job is an attractive black male with a winning personality. The farther from that ideal you get the harder it will be to get that chance.
There is no equality of opportunity until computers select who gets hired.
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While I am reluctant to mention this... the "Equality of Opportunity" is a lie. It doesn't exist except as an idea that never gets achieved.
Look at it this way:
Lots of people apply for a white collar job, people of all shapes, genders, and colors. The hiring manager FIRST sorts them out by removing anyone under qualified (they can't do the job) or over qualified (they are likely to leave soon for a better job). He now has a small stack of applicants to interview. Your remaining qualifications are no longer relevant as everyone left in the stack can do the job. He is now looking for someone he wants to work with. In this case he is FAR more likely to select someone similar to himself and who he would like to work with. If the hiring manager is a Black Man then you have a better shot at the job if you are also a black man then a white man or woman of any color. He is also going to factor in your appearance and personality. The person ideally suited to get that job is an attractive black male with a winning personality. The farther from that ideal you get the harder it will be to get that chance.There is no equality of opportunity until computers select who gets hired.
While I mostly agree, in my experience, and I'm just saying in my experience, almost all of the jobs I've applied for are through an HR dept, which are mostly female staffed, the interviews I've held are usually with females, and even the local managment where mostly female.
I wish this thread would get back to "sexualized, scantily clad heroines" and get off the "we need more women firefighters" kick.
Well, unless part of needing more women firefighters involves more of those "non-profit" firefighter calendars that is....
I thought this thread was about depictions of women in gaming?
I thought this thread was about depictions of women in gaming?
It is, but it's not worth discussing in a vacuum.
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Unhealthy gender depictions aren't restricted to the fairer sex.What I find interesting about those is the male depictions in those could easily be described in the same terms as the relatively common shirtless male fantasy characters that everyone brings up as the male equivalent to the sexualized scantily clad women. But the effect is very different. Many of those same people would whine if we started getting Fabio covers for gaming books.
It's not about the details of the clothing. It's about the gaze. It's about the pose. It's about what the artist or photographer chooses to emphasize.
This is very true, and what I think a lot of people fail to realize. You can have fully clothed women depicted in insulting/sexist ways, and you can have naked women who are not. The emphasis on certain features is one of the greatest sources of objectification for character artwirk.
All I know is that my single, eligible daughter works in a bookstore and she SELLS those firefighter calendars! Every time one goes across her scanner it just reinforces those unrealistic male beauty stereotypes in her head and just makes it THAT much harder for her to find a nice guy whose pectorals aren't as well developed as his diaper changing skills. It's totally unacceptable what we are doing in this culture.
(Seriously though, if you ever want to experience unbelievable discrimination in the workforce, try to get promoted to a senior executive position in the corporate world as a short, middle-aged bald guy. And don't expect any help from anyone, 'cause it ain't coming.)
(Seriously though, if you ever want to experience unbelievable discrimination in the workforce, try to get promoted to a senior executive position in the corporate world as a short, middle-aged bald guy. And don't expect any help from anyone, 'cause it ain't coming.)
Interesting. The roommate has no problems in the corporate world, and he is middle-aged (I guess, he is 37) and bald. But... he's 6'2''.
Interesting. The roommate has no problems in the corporate world, and he is middle-aged (I guess, he is 37) and bald. But... he's 6'2''.
(Seriously though, if you ever want to experience unbelievable discrimination in the workforce, try to get promoted to a senior executive position in the corporate world as a short, middle-aged bald guy. And don't expect any help from anyone, 'cause it ain't coming.)
So, where is your roommate a CEO, CFO, CTO or EVP?
So, where is your roommate a CEO, CFO, CTO or EVP?Interesting. The roommate has no problems in the corporate world, and he is middle-aged (I guess, he is 37) and bald. But... he's 6'2''.
(Seriously though, if you ever want to experience unbelievable discrimination in the workforce, try to get promoted to a senior executive position in the corporate world as a short, middle-aged bald guy. And don't expect any help from anyone, 'cause it ain't coming.)
I'm not sure WHAT his job is. He works for Deere Credit.
I know less than NOTHING about the corporate world. But I know that he does financing stuff.
So, where is your roommate a CEO, CFO, CTO or EVP?I'm not sure WHAT his job is. He works for Deere Credit.
I know less than NOTHING about the corporate world. But I know that he does financing stuff.
Well, if your roommate is bringing home North of $1M per year, then he might be in one of those positions...
Well, if your roommate is bringing home North of $1M per year, then he might be in one of those positions...
So, where is your roommate a CEO, CFO, CTO or EVP?I'm not sure WHAT his job is. He works for Deere Credit.
I know less than NOTHING about the corporate world. But I know that he does financing stuff.
HA HA HA! No. I wish.
The roommate has no problems in the corporate world, and he is middle-aged (I guess, he is 37) and bald. But... he's 6'2''.
Short, bald, middle aged men are more or less automatically assumed to be George Costanza clones.
Politics: Studies have revealed a bias favoring tallness in politics. For example, from 1904-1984 the taller candidate won the U.S. presidential elections 80% of the time, and only two presidents in the entire history of the United States have been shorter than the nation’s average height at the time of their presidencies.
Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich writes, “With rare exceptions, senators are always tall and big shouldered. Heightism is rampant in American politics. I’m tempted to stand on my chair, but that would be uncabinetlike. I have to remain content to hear the oath and watch the backs of senatorial necks.” --Reich, Robert, B. (1997). Locked in the Cabinet. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, p. 44.
Business: The business world also favors the tall over the short. For example, one study found a positive relationship between newly hired MBAs' height and starting salaries. Tall men (6 feet 2 inches and above) received a starting salary 12.4% higher than graduates of the same school who were less than 6 feet, even when the shorter applicant was a man of higher intelligence. In 2003, researchers at the University of Florida and the University of North Carolina found that each extra inch of a man’s height commanded an additional $789 dollars annually. Over the years, that difference can result in hundreds of thousands of dollars more for the tall person compared to his shorter counterpart.
Dating: Another area where height prejudice exists is in dating. Studies have shown that women favor tall men over short men. For example, when 100 women were asked to evaluate photographs of men whom they believed to be tall, average or short, all of them found the tall and average men significantly more attractive.
thejeff: Here's a USA Today article that examines the population of CEOs and politicians and compares the statistical ratios of bald to not-bald with the general public.
TL:DR version, roughly 20% of male politicians, CEOs, CFOs, etc. are bald, while roughly half of the male population of the same age is. So if you have hair, you are roughly 2.5x more likely to be promoted to such a position than a similarly qualified bald person is.
Similar results surround height. In fact there is quite a bit of debate over which is worse in the corporate world, being bald or being short.
But nobody really denies that being both really sucks.
This thread inspired me to buy the new Tomb Raider. Looking forward to playing a kick-ass survivalist!
I'd be curious if any studies on height have been done in other countries. If the difference is less pronounced or negligible in some than I would attribute one factor of our heightism to the hypermasculinity of our culture.
From Wikipedia:
In business ...in the great majority of cases a person’s height would not seem to have an effect on how well they are able to perform their job. Nevertheless, studies have shown that short people are paid less than taller people, with disparities similar in magnitude to the race and gender gaps.[9][10] A survey of Fortune 500 CEO height in 2005 revealed that they were on average 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) tall, which is approximately 2.5 inches (6.4 cm) taller than the average American man. 30% were 6 ft 2 in (1.88 m) tall or more; in comparison only 3.9% of the overall United States population is of this height.[11] Similar surveys have uncovered that less than 3% of CEOs were below 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m) in height. Ninety percent of CEOs are of above average height.[12]
Dating and marriage Heightism is also a factor in dating preferences. For some people, height is a noteworthy factor in sexual attractiveness... on a cultural level in Post-industrial society, a sociological relationship between height and perceived attractiveness exists. This cultural characteristic, while applicable to the modernized world, is not a transcendental human quality.[18] Quantitative studies of woman-for-men personal advertisements have shown strong preference for tall men, with a large percentage indicating that a man significantly below average height was unacceptable.[19] A study produced by the Universities of Groningen and Valencia, has found that men, who felt most anxious about attractive, physically dominant, and socially powerful rivals, were less jealous, the taller they were themselves.[20] The study also found that women were most jealous of others' physical attractiveness, but women of medium height were the least jealous.[21] The report, produced by Dutch and Spanish researchers, stated that because average height women tend to be the most fertile and healthy, they would be less likely to feel threatened by women with those similar features.[22]
I'm not denying that short and bald hurts your chances. Statistically speaking, being female is worse.
Well, it all depends on how you look at the data. If you look at the promotions in the last decade, females look a lot better than they do overall, but bald hasn't improved. Also, if you are female and go to the EOC you might get a case. If you are bald, you'll get laughed out of the office.
Bald discrimination has been going on forever. Why do you think our founding fathers wore wigs?
One of these days the bald will rise! The hairy ones will rue the day!
In the interest of full disclosure I freely admit that I started the whole fireman calendar and bald short men diversion to finally put an end to all the discrimination in the modern work force talk.
Seriously people, we've still got lots of "sexualized, scantily clad heroines" to examine in exquisite detail before we settle the original question. Let's get back to it!
To bring some levity to the discussion, a kickstarter. Busty Barbarian Bimbos - an RPG.
Fixed that for you. ;)
Dismissal of manliness. Men don't matter. The heroines aren't encouraged to solve problems by emulating manly characters from other games. We aren't taking Conan the Cimmerian and photoshopping a bikini onto him. Not to knock Red Sonja, but the model of empowering girls by having them act like boys is not the goal here.
Even if the game is purposefully silly, I actually like this statement. I've always thought emulating a man to be an odd means of female empowerment — to me that's always seemed like a devaluation of feminine strengths.
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Fixed that for you. ;)To bring some levity to the discussion, a kickstarter. Busty Barbarian Bimbos - an RPG.
Its been a long day at work. Meetings could use some brevity.
Brevity is the soul of levity...