But I like “sexualized, scantily clad heroines” in my gaming entertainment.


Gamer Life General Discussion

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Shifty wrote:

Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?

Seems legit.

Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

The bottom line being: It ain't in there for the ladies in most cases.


Jmacq1 wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?

Seems legit.

Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

The bottom line being: It ain't in there for the ladies in most cases.

I'd buy it if the guy wasn't always waxed/freshly shaven.


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Never understood the revulsion some women have for hair. Beards are hot :)


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Jmacq1 wrote:
Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

To what degree is this true for women as well? To be more clear, to what degree does showing illustrations of physically attractive and in "ludicrously" good physical condition (which I don't take to mean muscular, per se) appeal to female viewers who want to -be- that character?

I'm honestly asking, and not trying to play a game of tit-for-tat regarding idealization in imagery. The degree to which female viewers appreciate pictures of very attractive women as something they'd like to be (as opposed to giving them unrealistic and damaging standards for self-imagery) seems to me to receive very little discussion.


Ah, finally, something to say!

So, I am half Italian and a quarter (or an eighth--my dad's peeps were mutts) Scottish, and have been able to comb my shoulders since before I was 20, so you can imagine how distraught I was seeing Hugh Jackman with his little boyish wisp of chest hair depicting Wolverine.


Most men in comics still don't have armpit hair, when you see their naked armpits.


firefly the great wrote:
Appearance can *very much* be changed. Not every guy can be David Tennant, but in reality, you don't have to be. If you manage to stay within a reasonably healthy weight for your height, practice hygiene, and pay a modicum of attention to your clothing you're probably in the top 20% of men, looks-wise.

I'm still 6" too short for all that to have done me any good at all. Me and a fair number of other men will *NEVER* be attractive to 99.9% women on that basis alone.

Guys with uneven facial features? Ditto.
And any number of other things.

Mrs Gersen and I watched "Safe" last night. Jason Statham looks great in a suit, and in a grungy sweatshirt. Shaven and unshaven.


Freehold DM wrote:
Jmacq1 wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?

Seems legit.

Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

The bottom line being: It ain't in there for the ladies in most cases.

I'd buy it if the guy wasn't always waxed/freshly shaven.

Right, because women always talk about how they want the guys that can braid their back hair, don't they?

The guys are always waxed/freshly shaven because A: It's easier to draw/paint/etc... and B: because once again...being physically attractive is part of the power fantasy, and women tend to prefer guys that aren't hirsuite.

Alzrius wrote:
Jmacq1 wrote:
Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

To what degree is this true for women as well? To be more clear, to what degree does showing illustrations of physically attractive and in "ludicrously" good physical condition (which I don't take to mean muscular, per se) appeal to female viewers who want to -be- that character?

I'm honestly asking, and not trying to play a game of tit-for-tat regarding idealization in imagery. The degree to which female viewers appreciate pictures of very attractive women as something they'd like to be (as opposed to giving them unrealistic and damaging standards for self-imagery) seems to me to receive very little discussion.

By most indications, women are more interested in portrayal of character than portrayal of appearance. They tend to have no problem with female characters being physically idealized, but are a wee bit turned off by the fact that butt-floss and chainmail bikinis tend to be standard issue, and that they are often depicted in anatomically impossible positions that somehow manage to show off both their bust and the derriere at the same time.


Freehold DM wrote:
Jmacq1 wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Because heterosexual men like nothing more than admiring the ripped well oiled biceps and smooth hairless lines of a strong jawed Adonis dressed only in leather and assuming power-butch poses?

Seems legit.

Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

The bottom line being: It ain't in there for the ladies in most cases.

I'd buy it if the guy wasn't always waxed/freshly shaven.

What are we talking about? Fantasy barbarian art? Cause that isn't really my impression of it.


Alzrius wrote:
Jmacq1 wrote:
Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

To what degree is this true for women as well? To be more clear, to what degree does showing illustrations of physically attractive and in "ludicrously" good physical condition (which I don't take to mean muscular, per se) appeal to female viewers who want to -be- that character?

I'm honestly asking, and not trying to play a game of tit-for-tat regarding idealization in imagery. The degree to which female viewers appreciate pictures of very attractive women as something they'd like to be (as opposed to giving them unrealistic and damaging standards for self-imagery) seems to me to receive very little discussion.

Given the romance novel cover examples, the gender roles are so entrenched that if you identify with the attractive woman, you also have to identify with the woman who waits around to have her life validated by a walking cliche of a man. It's due to a ton of cultural baggage, but 9/10ths of what we (societally speaking) consider attractive in women seems to actively work against identification with said character.

Two disclaimers: I'm a dude, so I know not what of I speak; and I am well away that very good novels may have very cheesy covers through no fault of the writing within.


thejeff wrote:
What are we talking about? Fantasy barbarian art? Cause that isn't really my impression of it.

To be honest, I don't know what you're talking about, but I feel inspired...


Top results for "Hawt Fantasy Barbarian Art" Googlesearch 1


2

Hmm, interesting.


3

WTF?


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Jmacq1 wrote:
By most indications, women are more interested in portrayal of character than portrayal of appearance.

Presuming that "portrayal of character" means knowing who the person is and what they do, then isn't "still art" (e.g. a single picture) a bad medium for that anyway, compared to text and cinematic depictions (e.g. TV and movies)?


4

Yeah, baby, yeah!!


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Alzrius wrote:
Jmacq1 wrote:
Way to miss the point entirely. It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character. Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

To what degree is this true for women as well? To be more clear, to what degree does showing illustrations of physically attractive and in "ludicrously" good physical condition (which I don't take to mean muscular, per se) appeal to female viewers who want to -be- that character?

I'm honestly asking, and not trying to play a game of tit-for-tat regarding idealization in imagery. The degree to which female viewers appreciate pictures of very attractive women as something they'd like to be (as opposed to giving them unrealistic and damaging standards for self-imagery) seems to me to receive very little discussion.

Generally, the problem is not the woman's physical appearance, but the "gaze" used. If you want some examples, take a look at League of Legends' art. Almost all of the females are put into poses to emphasize their busts, some also emphasizing their ass. The men on the other hand are usually in action shots emphasizing what they are doing or in fairly standard tough guy poses.


Interesting. I don't play League of Legends, but have been repeatedly told I should. Still not interested, but I think I'll take a look at the art. Should prove... enlightening.


So, in the later books by deCamp and Carter, Conan grew a beard, but, despite his loathing for decadent civilization, I bet he shaved his body.

I knew guys who did that, swimmers and wrestlers and bicyclists, and I bet Conan did it, too.


Caineach wrote:
Generally, the problem is not the woman's physical appearance, but the "gaze" used. If you want some examples, take a look at League of Legends' art. Almost all of the females are put into poses to emphasize their busts, some also emphasizing their ass. The men on the other hand are usually in action shots emphasizing what they are doing or in fairly standard tough guy poses.

For example.

I like how she's subtly offering me her loins...

And look at that "gaze" on the fox! Hawt!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm still 6" too short for all that to have done me any good at all. Me and a fair number of other men will *NEVER* be attractive to 99.9% women on that basis alone.

I'm a woman of above average height in an area full of people who are above national average for height and I've dated a couple guys shorter than me. The only thing unattractive is how they both spent their time going "HEY! I'M NOT THAT SHORT. ARE YOU SURE IT'S OK THAT I'M SHORTER THAN YOU? OMG MY FRIENDS ARE MAKING FUN OF ME FOR BEING SHORTER THAN YOU. ARE YOU SURE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DUMP ME?" It's just such a total lack of confidence, not to mention the implied sleights at my own appearance, that is a turn-off. I mean, people thought Tom Cruise was attractive before they found out he was a total whack job and he's shorter than the average American dude.


firefly the great wrote:
I've dated a couple guys shorter than me.

That's rare -- I'm impressed. I've had women who were shorter than I was tell me point-blank, "You're an awesome guy, and you'd be totally hot if you were taller, but you're just too short for me."

More recently, a friend of mine was always telling me about the latest "upgrades" to her boyfriend: "Yeah, this one's got the same amount of money, and is almost as cute -- but he's taller, so I totally ditched the last one! Is that wrong?" So maybe these guys' wondering if you were going to throw them over for someone taller was grounded in experience? Dunno. Thank God I don't have to worry about that kind of crap anymore.

P.S. I'm actually the same height as Tom Cruise, but don't have the tricky camera always shooting upward to make me look taller. And I'm not a Scientologist. And I don't usually wander around grinning like a freak at nothing.


I think the guy is a bit cuckoo for coco puffs, but you do have to give him some mad props.

Dark Archive

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Let's just get this out there:

Men would appreciate a woman's mind more if it gently bounced as she walked.


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Jmacq1 wrote:
Way to miss the point entirely.

No I got your point, I just didn't think it was accurate.

Jmacq1 wrote:
It's not about the male readership finding the male characters attractive. It's about wanting to -be- the character.

Just like they wanted to be say Rob Halford in Judas Priest in all his leathers singing mega-butch Heavy Metal songs? or maybe Freddie Mercury in all his spandex? Some of them may well have wanted to be the image, some of them wanted to be the image. Don't handwave or try trivialise the amount of 'sexuality questioning' that goes on in the minds adolescent and early age males.

Jmacq1 wrote:
Physical attractiveness is a by-product of that, because most men, given a choice, would want to be physically attractive and in ludicrously good physical condition (at least outwardly).

So do most women. I'm sure if you put up the scantily clad barbarian queen and a picture of Roseanne and said "Ok ladies, magic wand time, which would you like to look like - we wont judge".

Jmacq1 wrote:
The bottom line being: It ain't in there for the ladies in most cases.

Why, because they only like men like Leonardo or that fink from Twilight? Ladies love cheesecake too, plenty of them quite dig the Barbarian guy with his well oiled biceps and dreamy smooth skin, they look into those big intense animal eyes and say 'yes please'.

Have you seen a bunch of women arrive at Chippendales? Did you hear the screams of the female audience at Magic Mike?

If you put Channing Tatum on the cover of the next Conan movie with sword and loincloth it would sell like hotcakes - it would be the cheeky 'chocolates and red wine friday night movie' of many a lady I'm sure.


pres man wrote:
I think the guy is a bit cuckoo for coco puffs, but you do have to give him some mad props.

Is that her dad?


Shifty wrote:
Just like they wanted to be say Rob Halford in Judas Priest in all his leathers singing mega-butch Heavy Metal songs? or maybe Freddie Mercury in all his spandex? Some of them may well have wanted to be the image, some of them wanted to be the image. Don't handwave or try trivialise the amount of 'sexuality questioning' that goes on in the minds adolescent and early age males.

I remember reading an article about Kit Lambert and The Who in a Britrock mag a long time ago and they were going on about how the sixties Mods figured out how to sell men to other men without the occurence of balls (the sporting kind) and that it wasn't a coincidence that two of the three big impressarios (Brian Epstein, Lambert, Andrew Loog Oldham) of the British Invasion were gay.


Shifty wrote:
pres man wrote:
I think the guy is a bit cuckoo for coco puffs, but you do have to give him some mad props.
Is that her dad?

Snerk. That's her husband - former Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich.


Bless you!


firefly the great wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm still 6" too short for all that to have done me any good at all. Me and a fair number of other men will *NEVER* be attractive to 99.9% women on that basis alone.
I mean, people thought Tom Cruise was attractive before they found out he was a total whack job and he's shorter than the average American dude.

Maybe not the best choice since there were a slew of jokes about Tom Cruises' height throughout his career. Especially about 'Interview with a Vampire', where he supposedly threw many a diva fit about it.

In fact that was more of a feature of his media portray throughout the 90's than him being a heart-throb.


DSXMachina wrote:
firefly the great wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm still 6" too short for all that to have done me any good at all. Me and a fair number of other men will *NEVER* be attractive to 99.9% women on that basis alone.
I mean, people thought Tom Cruise was attractive before they found out he was a total whack job and he's shorter than the average American dude.

Maybe not the best choice since there were a slew of jokes about Tom Cruises' height throughout his career. Especially about 'Interview with a Vampire', where he supposedly threw many a diva fit about it.

In fact that was more of a feature of his media portray throughout the 90's than him being a heart-throb.

Aside from Jackie Chan and Kevin Bacon, who WASN'T a diva in the 90's?

Especially in the department of 'For-Female-Fanservice'*?

*not intended as a diss to my gay brothers out there - I'm talking purely demographic-targetting, not active discrimination


pres man wrote:
Detect Magic wrote:
This thread has reached its apex: Sean Connery Wizard. Too much cool... too much... overload... overload!
I always thought he looked more like Kris Kristofferson.

Oh my god yes!

Dark Archive

Alice Margatroid wrote:

Samurai, please name some video games that have a female protagonist.

I can think of the following off the top of my head:
- Final Fantasy 13 (and Final Fantasy X-2)
- Mirror's Edge
- Beyond Good and Evil
- Assassin's Creed 3: Liberation

Now think of the numerous games that have a male protagonist only.

I'd like to exclude games that give you a choice on protagonist gender, because in 99% of cases these games do not differ whatsoever no matter your selection*... which is fine, and good, but there are still an ENORMOUS amount of games that have a male protagonist, but very few that have a female protagonist.

* Minus cosmetic aspects - which can still be problematic (compare male armor vs. female armor in fantasy games for example) - and things such as ability (or inability) to get into a relationship with an NPC based on sexual preference etc...

I would say if you are looking for more check out Alice: Madness Returns for one.


Samus Aran!

Here is a whole list.

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Freehold DM wrote:
Also Kirth, it's obvious we know different women the only person I know who finds diCaprio attractive is my ex. The vast majority of women I know would prefer stallone or Schwarzenegger in their youth to diCaprio today.

For me it is Johnny Depp any day of the week. :)


Johnny Depp is at least somewhat respectable as a Man...


...who left his girlfriend for a younger woman. Now, there, there's a role model for you.


Hence, my use of Somewhat.


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Terquem wrote:
...who left his girlfriend for a younger woman. Now, there, there's a role model for you.

Because remember, if what you do takes place in the media, then you're expected to be a role model, whether you wanted to be or not.

...unless, of course, you do something objectionable. Then you're to be scorned forever.

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Gee and here I thought that was about how attractive a guy was as a action star and not what kind of person they was or what kind of role model they was.


We all have responsibilities, to ourselves, to the people who are close to us, public figure or not, and how attractive a person is, is to me, affected by their character.


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Terquem wrote:
We all have responsibilities, to ourselves, to the people who are close to us, public figure or not, and how attractive a person is, is to me, affected by their character.

Yeah, but that's not what your previous post was about. You said that his personal failure in one specific regard made him unfit to be a role model.

He was never a role model to begin with.

Statements about how celebrity "role models" contribute to the moral decay of society when they fail us are virtually always operating on a flawed premise. We set these famous people up on unreasonably high pedestals, and then lament their fall when their human foibles invariably come out, making them topple from the lofty perches we put them on.

I have no doubt that Tiger Woods' sex addiction and infidelity caused a lot of harm to himself, his wife, his family and friends, and other people close to him, but he doesn't owe me an apology for anything. I have no expectations of the man besides being a talented golfer, nor do I have any of Johnny Depp besides being a talented actor.

If we make celebrities into icons, we're the cause of our own disappointment when they turn out to be as flawed as everyone else.


You're right. I have no business being in this conversation anyway, and my comment was crass and inappropriate.

Liberty's Edge

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Samus Aran!

Here is a whole list.

Hey, cool link, although a lot of the older things make me pretty sad (one female protagonist per year... having her be replaced by a man in the NA release... etc) It's a real shame that a lot of the old female-protagonist games are Japan-only as well.

I kind of laughed a little though - the category on Giantbomb appears to be including Otome games and Eroge (erotic visual novels)...


Terquem wrote:
...who left his girlfriend for a younger woman. Now, there, there's a role model for you.

Umm...so?


Perhaps he had a good reason? Celebrity gossip is lame.


The celebrities don't really exist. They are figments of media imagination.


I still see no answer to my question. :D

I digress, however - I'm all in favor of equal opportunity fanservice, personally, so long as no one infringes on my opportunities to note when something isn't my bag, without saying others are bad for liking what they like and should feel bad.*

Except 'bronies', 'cause seriously, screw those guys.

Yes, I'm kidding.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
For me it is Johnny Depp any day of the week. :)

Mrs Gersen agrees! But that still supports my point: Johnny Depp is fairly girly-looking, can't grow a mustache any better than a 13-year-old boy (see "Public Enemies"), and certainly looks nothing like Ah-nold. Women love him (1) for female eye-candy value and (2) for his acting ability

Spoiler:
which I find highly variable, ranging from truly formidable to annoying to totally lame, depending mostly on the director.
Men don't want to be like him, though (unless they're emo teenagers or just want to be able to pick up more chicks). In that respect, he's a good analogy for the women in comic books.

Brad Pitt is much in the same mold.

Spoiler:
And do I detect another similarity? Depp... Pitt... if Elmer Fudd had a relatively androgynous son, maybe he could be the next "hottie" guy actor!


Mustache comparison:

John Dillinger

Johnny Depp

They both look pretty lame to me.

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