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I literally was looking for an image to inspire some Greatsword Wielding Characters.
I found a few like this & this which are fairly realistic.
BUT!
A majority were like this, this, this, this, & this.
Can anyone give me a reason why? Is it just the Cloud and Guts wannabes? And which do you prefer your character to wield?
I guess mine is simple. I like the Realistic ones.
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I always pictured 'em as something about the same length as Skyrim's Greatswords, give or take a bit.
Though I do not enjoy the fact that this comes up when I search "Skyrim Greatsword". Warning: Censored virtual nudity.
Elder Scrolls for the most part has been one of the few games I can stand to use a greatsword in simply for how realistic they are. Though they do tend towards the larger side. But not that much... Maybe 6 Inches or so.
Don't get me wrong here I know there were some very large Greatswords. Such as the Greater or Late Claymores and Zweihanders but those are usually outliers when it comes to them.
Yeah, the foamcore Anime swords probably weigh more than a real claymore...
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Well then to be fair, in your third picture Siegfried uses a Zweihander, not a Greatsword. Says so in his character bio, the annoying little midget.
I am going based on Appearances not just names. As Zweihanders are a type of Greatsword.
Especially when a Zweihander was only 5 inches across on their Foreguard. Not the 2-3 feet that Siegfried's has.
I guess it is mostly the Width of the blades that bugs me most. I could see a long blade and long hilt. As Zweihanders and Greater Claymores were Long. Heck, some averaged around 5-6 Feet based on the Wielder. But I think the Widest Greater Claymore recorded was only 7 Inches where the blade met the crossguard and quickly tapered down to 4 inches before it went to its point over the last 6 inches of its length. And that blade was only 4 feet 9 inches with a 1.5 foot hilt.
Actualy, those greatswords you say are reasonable look pretty damn small to me. Obviously greatswords aren't really twice the bulk of a man, but those things are long!
I guess it's for two main reasons. First of all, if you picked the biggest sword, the chances are you're aiming for the biggest sword possible, not just that specific one, and second because if you scale up a normal sword to be as long as possible, plus a little longer because it's fantasy, you get something that looks like those over the top pictures.
Personally, I love the aesthetic of the dual-grip flame-edged zweihander, but I guess it depends what kind of fantasy you're running.
If your game is epic fantasy point buy, some starting levels, hero points and monster races allowed, that flammenschwert is going to look pretty small. A lot of other games and settings are more like that than your average pathfinder game.
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I enjoy the imagery of giant weapons since I first played Monster Hunter (one of the pictures you linked), but I don't think any of those pictures were striving for realism... although I could be mistaken! Perhaps just the result of current artistic trends?
You might find this interesting:
Hence why I pointed out in my edit it is mostly the width. I get that there are some thick and long swords. But again those were Outliers of the Greatsword. Though Pathfinder's descriptions also inflate it.
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Why? Rule of cool.
I like the big weaponry. It's badass. I also like scythes to look like an awesome grim reaper style rather than the incredibly boring realistic style. Etc.
Reality isn't nearly as interesting as fantasy!
@Mortuum: I will also say that my first example is a bit small if the man is of average height. but if he is slightly taller then it is on the smaller side but is well within the norm.
But the Image of Gerald is perfectly sized for a standard Greatsword for his height.
@Alice Margatroid: The Scythe you are wanting is a Battle Scythe, the Picture is of a War Scythe, and then there is the Farming implement. All are valid for the CRB Stat Block. Though the War Scythe might be deserving of reach depending on the nation. Those Russian ones are LONG! around 14 feet overall.
And I can see an Orc wielding a larger Greatsword than a Human but not that much. I mean I will give Pathfinder the fact that most artwork is within line with some exceptions (Orik or whatever his name is that wields the Bastard Sword and Shield in RotRL[?]) but even his can be realistic if he is taller than average for a Human.
I am going based on Appearances not just names. As Zweihanders are a type of Greatsword.
Especially when a Zweihander was only 5 inches across on their Foreguard. Not the 2-3 feet that Siegfried's has.
I guess it is mostly the Width of the blades that bugs me most. I could see a long blade and long hilt. As Zweihanders and Greater Claymores were Long. Heck, some averaged around 5-6 Feet based on the Wielder. But I think the Widest Greater Claymore recorded was only 7 Inches where the blade met the crossguard and quickly tapered down to 4 inches before it went to its point over the last 6 inches of its length. And that blade was only 4 feet 9 inches with a 1.5 foot hilt.
I'm gonna play devil's advocate again (and another jab at Siegfried) and say the sword looks bigger than it is. He's only like 5' 2" tall and weighs 140 (or was it 125?) pounds.
Maybe the sword just looks wide!
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I don't pretend to know much at all about medieval weaponry, but a Google search for 'battle scythe' only brings up articles from video games and the like. The Wiki article for war scythes says that scythes were transformed into weapons by reforging the blade at a 90 degree angle. So who knows! Super curved scythes are cooler either way, even if they aren't realistic.
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Having watched many many demonstrations of two-handed swordfighting at the Royal Armouries in Leeds, UK (real sword experts), you begin to appreciate how every part of the two-hander was a weapon. It was not just about swinging it about and leaving yourself open. There were trip techniques, 'dagger' techniques, blunt weapon techniques, anti-armour techniques, parry and riposte techniques as well as less subtle utilisations of a big metal object. Far cooler than any unrealistic phallic extention.
This is a video to demonstrate the style of what Royal Armouries demonstrations look like - not the full demonstration just one technique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhUStWq-_Is
Been there, done that! I live in Leeds, and natives get in free!
I've mentioned these very demonstrations in previous posts, as evidence that hands aren't glued to two-handed weapons but are in constant motion, letting go and re-gripping many times in any six second period.....I better stop now, before I 'go off on one' again. : )
Another topic about fantasy characters wielding big oversized greatswords?
How about the fact that guts has a cannon in his arm, or Siegfried being possessed by a sword that has a rotating eyeball in it that causes him to turn into a giant killing suit of armor, or what about the overly complex Bowguns of Monster hunter, because you have access to gunpowder, but you launch --arrows-- with it.
Fantasy is just that. Fantasy. If your character is super-human, there's no reason why they couldn't use a larger weapon. If you're fighting demons, warlocks, and Cthulhu-spawn. A guy that has a 28 to strength and wielding a sword twice his size isn't exactly out of the realm of possibility.
If you think it looks stupid, that's fine, but there's a reason for this in literature and other works. Simply because the bigger the object, the more intimidating it is. A Magnum Revolver isn't any more deadly then a regular handgun (in terms of able-to-kill someone, not the size of the hole), but that doesn't stop Dirty Harry from using one.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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A Magnum Revolver isn't any more deadly then a regular handgun (in terms of able-to-kill someone, not the size of the hole), but that doesn't stop Dirty Harry from using one.
Factually incorrect. Magnums generally have 80-100% more kinetic energy than non-magnum, non +P rounds of the same caliber, and consistently higher one shot stop percentage. You don't use one because it's scary looking, you use it because it is more effective.
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A Magnum Revolver isn't any more deadly then a regular handgun (in terms of able-to-kill someone, not the size of the hole), but that doesn't stop Dirty Harry from using one.Factually incorrect. Magnums generally have 80-100% more kinetic energy than non-magnum, non +P rounds of the same caliber, and consistently higher one shot stop percentage. You don't use one because it's scary looking, you use it because it is more effective.
A magnum is harder to aim, harder to carry (because of the size) harder to compensate for recoil, and overall harder to fire as a result. A regular handgun does the job just fine, but there is a reason why no real military force or even police force uses a Magnum over a more simple handgun. If you're facing someone with kevlar or the like, you still wouldn't use a Magnum, you would use a rifle.
A giant greatsword has way more stopping power then a shortsword, but there are the same reasons why lighter, more stabby weapons were used in combat over a horsecleaver.
But thankfully this is a fantasy game and the rules don't cover swing speed, exhaution, or any other stuff. And most media glosses over that as well.
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The big problem with most of those weapons is the physics of the matter.
Nice video. We can assume cloud's sword is not zinc/aluminum. So, 60 lbs.
Even if you are superhumanly strong, the problem is the weight of the weapon throws off your center of gravity and the inertia is going to keep your body moving even if you are strong enough to handle it...your arms would stop, but your whole body would turn and your feet tear up the ground as the weight and force of the blow dragged you around.
If you extended it out to the side, your center of gravity would shift and you'd tilt and fall over, regardless of how strong you are.
Now, if you've got 'heavyfoot' and can lock your position in relative to wherever, and/or you can fly, all this becomes moot, as where you stand is no longer dependent on gravity, weight and footing.
Physics is why most of cartoon super-strength doesn't work right. The Hulk can't lift a tank unless he's right under it, because the instant he grabs hold of it, his center of gravity is going to be under the tank, and he'll just fall over, regardless of how strong he is. Unless there's a telekinetic element to the strength, it just doesn't work in normal physics.
===Aelryinth
The big problem with most of those weapons is the physics of the matter.
Nice video. We can assume cloud's sword is not zinc/aluminum. So, 60 lbs.
...
===Aelryinth
Glad you saw it! Personally, I don't think it is pertinent that his sword, specifically was made of the alloy, rather that a sword of similar size and craftsmanship could be a lot more feasible than one might assume (I know I certainly thought otherwise!)
That being said, I've had to swing a 20 Ib sledgehammer, and there is no way on Earth I would be able to use it in a combat, lol.
You made some very valid points about the physics of it, however, which is something I hadn't truly considered (I'm not much of a physicist, heh). Now I have an image of the Hulk falling over after trying to pick up a tank! :P
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The big problem with most of those weapons is the physics of the matter.
Nice video. We can assume cloud's sword is not zinc/aluminum. So, 60 lbs.
Even if you are superhumanly strong, the problem is the weight of the weapon throws off your center of gravity and the inertia is going to keep your body moving even if you are strong enough to handle it...your arms would stop, but your whole body would turn and your feet tear up the ground as the weight and force of the blow dragged you around.
If you extended it out to the side, your center of gravity would shift and you'd tilt and fall over, regardless of how strong you are.
Now, if you've got 'heavyfoot' and can lock your position in relative to wherever, and/or you can fly, all this becomes moot, as where you stand is no longer dependent on gravity, weight and footing.
Physics is why most of cartoon super-strength doesn't work right. The Hulk can't lift a tank unless he's right under it, because the instant he grabs hold of it, his center of gravity is going to be under the tank, and he'll just fall over, regardless of how strong he is. Unless there's a telekinetic element to the strength, it just doesn't work in normal physics.
===Aelryinth
Thankfully, most media doesn't follow normal physics.
Otherwise Large+ creatures would have some severe issues and our poor dragons would at the very least be land bound.
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Whoa whoa whoa, don't diss on Guts swords. It's the only oversized sword that's actually treated like an oversized swords. He is a rather formidable man that has trained with oversized weapons since he was a kid. And he wields it properly, not like a butter knife, unlike those other characters.
On a side note, you should totally watch/read Berserk. It's awesome, even if you don't typically like anime/manga.
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And this is why fighters are overpowered ^_^
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@Rynjin: It would still be around 75% wider than the normal for his height.
@kyrt-rider: It is still the fact that it was the Third most common of the images I found when looking for this.
I am mostly annoyed that they are the most commonly depicted even in real people being Photographed.
I can see Guts weilding a Large Bastard Sword like Amiri or even being a Titan Mauler with some form of Houserule or gaining the Powerful Build trait as an alternate race feature. Heck, even Amiri's blade is a bit wide for being a large Bastard Sword though not as much as Siegfried's maybe around 25-30%.
@Alice: Battle Scythes were Smaller than they are depicted. But Battle/Death Scythes were typically rare and used by Skirmishers from rural regions. Though they typically had a Handle halfway on the Haft.
I know this seems like an odd thing to be frustrated about but when we can't find a seemingly realistic picture for these oversized blades. Even if the Length is right the width is overkill. I mean I have tried wielding a blade around the width of Amiri's. As far as I can tell I am taller than she would be and I have a hard time drawing the blade. Wielding it was fairly easy. It was only the drawing of the blade I had a problem with. At least in any Sheath configuration that would make it easy to carry. The easiest one we found was a breakaway sheath but it made it slightly more difficult to carry.
Most I see don't ever actually sheathe their blades, they just sling them over their shoulders and carry 'em around all day. Pretty sure that's what Guts does (I only read like 2 chapters of Berserk like 2 years ago), it's what Siegfried (and Nightmare, though he just drags it across the ground since it's magic octopus sword and it doesn't dull. That or it doesn't cut anything anyway) and Cloud do for sure.
Cloud actual uses a holster in Advent Children. Zack, Cloud, & Angeal all used a special magnetic thing worked into the SOLDIER Uniform. At least according to Canon.
Seigfried & Nightmare you are right. I think Guts/Gats also is shown with it on his back. I don't think it is given an explanation in canon... Though I am currently re-reading the series.
EDIT: Interestingly when I replace Greatsword with Longsword I end up getting a few realistic Longsword wielders and then some that are either oversized Longswords or realistic Greatswords.
some people like to play Guts with the dragonslayer.
and me, i like to RP the loli with a hand and a half Sabre sized and weighted for a man 18 inches taller than herself.
nothing like being 5'0" and wielding a Sabre that was designed as a hand and a half sabre for a powerful man of 6'6" in one hand. using it as an improvised bastard sword with the grace and elegance of a dervish.
Just the image I needed... But that style is one thing.
I guess it is still lost on me...
I will admit I have had a Greatsword Wielding Fighter with a Greatsword fluffed up to be larger than average but only after I got the Impact Property on it. I fluffed it as the Property made it into the size of Large Greatsword when wielded. And only when wielded.
Just the image I needed... But that style is one thing.
I guess it is still lost on me...
I will admit I have had a Greatsword Wielding Fighter with a Greatsword fluffed up to be larger than average but only after I got the Impact Property on it. I fluffed it as the Property made it into the size of Large Greatsword when wielded. And only when wielded.
the sword itself isn't 6'6". it was a hand and a half sabre designed for a knight who happened to be 6'6"
knight dies, 5'0" squire girl loots it, uses it as her primary weapon. using it one handed with the ease of a dervish wielding a scimitar.
I get that. Trust me that is more reasonable than a 1.5 foot wide, 8 foot overall Greatsword and calling it a Medium Greatsword and being a 5'2" Human.
How I know is my 4'7" best friend can wield a Greatsword Sized for my 6'0" self just as easy as I can. Well until she tries using it in 1 Hand. I get ASoIaF's -2D Penalty when fighting with a Greatsword 1-Handed...
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I hear what you're saying. Personally, I can't stand the anime stuff that seems to be everywhere nowadays.
That being said, it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Something I like to tell new players is that "everyone at the table is playing a different game." You may imagine your character to be a wafer thin cross between an anime character and a boy-band member with a sword bigger than himself, but the guy sitting across from you might picture him as an average Joe with a standard great sword and a stupid haircut.
We are playing a game of pretend and everyone can pretend what they want, it's great!
I hear what you're saying. Personally, I can't stand the anime stuff that seems to be everywhere nowadays.
That being said, it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Something I like to tell new players is that "everyone at the table is playing a different game." You may imagine your character to be a wafer thin cross between an anime character and a boy-band member with a sword bigger than himself, but the guy sitting across from you might picture him as an average Joe with a standard great sword and a stupid haircut.
We are playing a game of pretend and everyone can pretend what they want, it's great!
As another note, only one of those characters in the OP was an anime character. All of them except Guts are from games.
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Even anime is a bit better about it sometimes. In the anime Kenshin (sometimes listed as Samurai X), supporting character Sano initially appears with just such a very large sword. He tries to fight with it, and is called out on how limited and obvious his attack angles are, and the general slowness of the blade. And gets his sword broken by the katana wielding star of the series.
Turns out, he's a better unarmed fighter anyways.
The big problem with most of those weapons is the physics of the matter.
Nice video. We can assume cloud's sword is not zinc/aluminum. So, 60 lbs.
Even if you are superhumanly strong, the problem is the weight of the weapon throws off your center of gravity and the inertia is going to keep your body moving even if you are strong enough to handle it...your arms would stop, but your whole body would turn and your feet tear up the ground as the weight and force of the blow dragged you around.
If you extended it out to the side, your center of gravity would shift and you'd tilt and fall over, regardless of how strong you are.
Now, if you've got 'heavyfoot' and can lock your position in relative to wherever, and/or you can fly, all this becomes moot, as where you stand is no longer dependent on gravity, weight and footing.
Physics is why most of cartoon super-strength doesn't work right. The Hulk can't lift a tank unless he's right under it, because the instant he grabs hold of it, his center of gravity is going to be under the tank, and he'll just fall over, regardless of how strong he is. Unless there's a telekinetic element to the strength, it just doesn't work in normal physics.
===Aelryinth
Magic also doesn't work in normal physics. RPG worlds (and comic worlds for that matter) have magic, thus their physics are not normal physics. Also, normal biology does not allow for almost anything inside a bestiary, any bestiary, thus RPG worlds have different bological laws. If biological and physical laws different, our knowledge about the normal rules does not apply to the in world rules. I propose that the rules of physics in those worlds may allow for different rules of momentum, inertia and center of gravity, allowing any halfling strong enough (titan mauler perhaps) to swing a Large greatsword.
I always pictured 'em as something about the same length as Skyrim's Greatswords, give or take a bit.
That one looks actually already too big to be wielded by a real person.
This is more like the real deal.
If the greatsword and longbow were as good in real life as they are in Pathfinder, they'd both see regular military use in modern times.
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They are as good in real life as they are in Pathfinder.
But assault rifles and semi-auto pistols beat arrows and swords every time.
speaking of oversized weapons
the Macedonian Army, Defeated Persia through the help of a spear with an 18 foot shaft and 2 foot blade.
such a spear being so difficult to wield, the help of a phalanx was needed to support to wield. but by increasing their action economy, they defeated the persians by allowing a greater amount of their own soldiers to attack by comparison.
the persian phalanx had i beleive 7 foot spears, about a third the length of those of Alexander's soldiers.
so for every one lone persian soldier attacking the macedonian phalanx, there were three macedonian soliders to take him down.
Emperor Darius may have had more soldiers, but Emperor Alexander found out how to increase his action economy to compensate.
Ehhh, while the shape of the Skyrim greatsword is unrealistic (in a curvy fantasy kind of way) the one you (addressing Yora) linked just seems a little too narrow to be sufficiently sturdy to me.
I think it's actually a bit too long. The width seems about right. Three fingers at the base seems to be a common width.