Let's not forget the amazing Rogue Talents they get, which grant such outstanding boons as "+4 to one incredibly specific use of one skill" and "be worse at attacking than you would be if you never used this talent at all".
Well, rogues can take a favored terrain every 2 levels. That's something pretty special.
Yay?
in groups where you play with 15pts, the rogue excells at the skills more so than anyone else. He also is the only one who typically can handle traps, and also tends to be able to escape any situation on his own more so then anyone else.
And he also has that whole backstab thing.
It's a shame that literally none of that is true. Even the rogue's backstab is weaker than a fighter's normal attack.
With 15pt buy generally Bards are your huckleberry for skills in my opinion.
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Regardless of your point-buy, by second level bards are functionally getting 8+Int skills per level due to Versatile Performance. This continues to scale up through 14th level, when they start getting 11+Int skills per level, and that's counting the four different Performs you're maxing as only one skill.
Anyone can handle traps with Perception / Disable Device. Rogues just get a marginal bonus to those skills, and that bonus is small enough that Wis-based classes can out-Perception them for quite a while anyhow. The ability to disarm magical traps with Disable Device sounds unique until you remember that Dispel Magic exists (and a thousand other spells could likewise circumvent any given trap as needed - Mount seems to be a common one). And that's assuming you ever see a trap; Pathfinder's writers seem to have forgotten that those exist. There are also several other archetypes that get Trapfinding anyhow.
If a situation is bad enough that everyone needs to fend for themselves, the rogue is probably the first one to drop, between the d8 hit die, the MADness, the poor saves, and the poor AC. The classes that are likely to escape are the ones with effects like Invisibility and Dimension Door, like wizards, sorcerers, and monks. (It's worth remembering that, even though Stealth is possibly the most iconic rogue skill, Invisibility blows the rogue's meager "has Stealth as a class skill" bonus out of the water. But rogues don't get Invisibility, casters do, which means that, as usual, rogues are bad at doing their own narrow job.)
And backstabbing rogues hurt less than facestabbing fighters.
And backstabbing rogues hurt less than facestabbing fighters.
To be fair, the Fighter doesn't get bragging rights about butter-knifing people like you can as a Spy either.
And backstabbing rogues hurt less than facestabbing fighters.To be fair, the Fighter doesn't get bragging rights about butter-knifing people like you can as a Spy either.
Can't do much butter-knifing as a Rogue either, unless you're spending one of your precious feats on Catch Off-Guard.
Regardless of your point-buy, by second level bards are functionally getting 8+Int skills per level due to Versatile Performance. This continues to scale up through 14th level, when they start getting 11+Int skills per level, and that's counting the four different Performs you're maxing as only one skill.
How are you maximising your multiple perform skills as if it were just one skill? What have I missed? Our game uses only the standard players guide, no other material. I could save a lot of skill points if that is in the base book!
How are you maximising your multiple perform skills as if it were just one skill? What have I missed? Our game uses only the standard players guide, no other material. I could save a lot of skill points if that is in the base book!Regardless of your point-buy, by second level bards are functionally getting 8+Int skills per level due to Versatile Performance. This continues to scale up through 14th level, when they start getting 11+Int skills per level, and that's counting the four different Performs you're maxing as only one skill.
She's not.
It's just that for the price of Perform: Act, Dance, Oratory, and Percussion he's getting max ranks in:
Bluff
Disguise
Acrobatics
Fly
Diplomacy
Intimidate
Handle Animal
As well, because of Lore Master and Bardic Knowledge he has an effective Knowledge: All rank of 10 on each (assuming 10 Int and no ranks) by level 14, and can take 10 on any of those for an auto 20 at base Int and no ranks whatsoever, giving him all of those as effective extra skill ranks as well.
So by the time he reaches that level, what's he got left? He's got all of the Knowledge skills, and a plethora of other useful skills to an acceptable level. Really the only useful skills he DOESN'T have are Disable Device and Spellcraft, and he's still got 2 ranks per level left...
Yeah.
If I understand the discussion correctly, Stealth is never going to be viable as a specialization. Either the rogue is better than everyone else, so he has to be alone to do it and will therefore die (or at least everybody else will be bored), or everybody can do it, and therefore the rogue won't be special.
How about giving Rogue free Skill Focus every couple of levels? That would definitely make him the king of skills again.
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I found the new Stealth rules from the playtest on the blog made the "stealth in combat" issue much more dynamic and playable.
The issues raised by the OP are legit, but the solutions are a combination of GM finesse and house ruling (like the rule from the blog).
I think skills got a raw deal in the general power inflation of the game. If you have a GM who really likes skill checks and calls for them all the time, the value of the rogue (and bard, et al.) increases dramatically.
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Add to the pile of problems that the rules on stealth are such a mess and that you can't steal a chicken in a highly contrived scenario specifically set up to cause the rogue to fail.Fixed that for you.
You broke it again by
1)contriving to get the wind in your favor: something not under your control. It turns rogue stealth into just as much of a "mother may I" ability as the rangers favored enemy bonus.
2) Assuming the Dog isn't going to yelp! when you shoot it.
3) Assuming the DM is supposed to design encounters around the limitations of stealth. I mean you functionally need something wondering around with an implausibly low light level: the elf doesn't have a candle, the human doesn't have a lantern, the dwarf doesn't have eyes.
4)-You sneak around back and come at the chicken house from the corn field.
You have to wait for dusk for this to work: concealment won't help you in bright or normal light. Of course if you're human at dusk you can't sneak attack the dog because he has concealment.
Also if Fido is awake you're out of luck, because dusk is normal light to a dog (who has low light vision)
So no, its not a contrived scenario to deny the rogue the ability to steal a chicken. It takes a contrived scenario to let them do it.
You need a sleeping dog or an 8k magic item to steal the chicken.
Killing the dog runs entirely counter to the idea of a rogues ability to infiltrate without making a mess. Any class can just walk up and kill the farmer if they want the chicken.
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Stealth is influenced by the following: cover, distance, lighting and perception. The problem isn't that it's useless or easily negated, it's that GM's get it wrong. They don't take cover, distance and lighting into consideration and (much like illusions) always assume everyone in a square mile radius gets a perception check (Will save for illusions).
Stealth done properly is hard. It requires the GM to answer a lot of questions. If the GM wants stealth to be a viable option for his/her players then these questions will be answered. Otherwise no one should be playing a rogue at that table.
A party that supports their rogue stays close by, but takes no actions. You don't provoke a perception check if you take no actions that create noise. Even if the party is loud, the rogue can still move into position to flank the enemy and maybe even take one out with a ranged attack before the enemy notices them.
It doesn't take much for stealth to work. You just gotta play the game as intended.
A major problem with the rogue for me is the amazing number of lackluster talents and archetypes. A distressing number of talents are only useable Once-per-day. Once-per-day! They're extradinary abilities that do not use resources! Why does Camaflogue, Assault Leader, and Knock-out Blow Once-per-day abilities! Once-per-round is far more reasonable and increases the useability of many, many Rogue Talents.
And they could've had a thing with archetypes where they had a archetypes that focused on a set a skills and got half their level to certain skills sets. Instead we got a piddly +1 or +2 I'm seeing with some of them. Or something more combat orienated and robust than "You can take Combat Trick TWO TIMES! Oooooooo!" The Acrobat doesn't even get half their level to Acrobatics. And many times there's been an opportunity to turn trap sense into a scaling bonus to hit, saves, AC, etc, and they don't do it. And the Skirmisher archetype for Ranger has alot of abilities that I think Rogues should've have.
Man, if I've done Swashbuckler it would look more something like this:
Martial Training (Ex): At 1st level, a rogue counts 1/2 her level as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. These levels stack with fighter levels. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Daring (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 morale bonus on Acrobatics and Bluff checks and saving throws against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd.
Oh wow look at that! That's way better.
Also, you could make Sneak Attack more backstabby:
1/rd when enemy denied dex or flanked, you deal x2 damage at level 1-4, x3 lv 5-8, x4 lv 9-12, x5 Lv 13-16, x6 level 17-20 (similar to 2e AD%D).
Example, 12 Str, short sword 1d6 on a Backstab: 1d6+1 =4.5 on average x2 = 9 damage.
Con: low strength will hurt more than sneak attack version. Have to wait till 5th before damage increases again.
Level 5: +1 short sword, 12 Str = 1d6+2 = 5.5 average x2 =11 damage
Now the more you increase Str or damage bonuses the better this will be (power attack/piranna strike helps)
Normal sneak Attack: 1d6+1 +3.5 (aveage 1d6) = 8 damage.
Level 5 +1 short sword, 12 Str = 1d6+2 + 3d6 = average 16
How are you maximising your multiple perform skills as if it were just one skill? What have I missed? Our game uses only the standard players guide, no other material. I could save a lot of skill points if that is in the base book!
I'm not maxing four Perform skills for free. I'm spending four points per level to max four Perform skills, but I'm only counting them as one in my calculation of how many effective skills per level the bard gets. If I count them separately, the bard is up to 14+Int, plus those bonuses to Knowledge, and can basically spit in the Rogue's face.
Stealth is influenced by the following: cover, distance, lighting and perception. The problem isn't that it's useless or easily negated, it's that GM's get it wrong. They don't take cover, distance and lighting into consideration and (much like illusions) always assume everyone in a square mile radius gets a perception check (Will save for illusions).
Stealth done properly is hard. It requires the GM to answer a lot of questions. If the GM wants stealth to be a viable option for his/her players then these questions will be answered. Otherwise no one should be playing a rogue at that table.
A party that supports their rogue stays close by, but takes no actions. You don't provoke a perception check if you take no actions that create noise. Even if the party is loud, the rogue can still move into position to flank the enemy and maybe even take one out with a ranged attack before the enemy notices them.
It doesn't take much for stealth to work. You just gotta play the game as intended.
You're getting several rules wrong here - for example, you do provoke perception checks even if you don't do anything (see the "Hide" skill that got folded into stealth, or the +40 bonus to stealth checks while standing around doing nothing while invisible).
As far as I can tell, what you're saying is that the stealth rules aren't broken, it's just that the stealth rules are broken and those damn lazy GM's aren't good enough to realize how broken they are and throw out the game system they paid for and invent a new one. By the same argument, it is literally impossible to write a bad RPG rule, as any sensible GM will just make up their own RPG system to replace it anyhow.
Also, you could make Sneak Attack more backstabby:
1/rd when enemy denied dex or flanked, you deal x2 damage at level 1-4, x3 lv 5-8, x4 lv 9-12, x5 Lv 13-16, x6 level 17-20 (similar to 2e AD%D).Example, 12 Str, short sword 1d6 on a Backstab: 1d6+1 =4.5 on average x2 = 9 damage.
Con: low strength will hurt more than sneak attack version. Have to wait till 5th before damage increases again.
Level 5: +1 short sword, 12 Str = 1d6+2 = 5.5 average x2 =11 damage
Now the more you increase Str or damage bonuses the better this will be (power attack/piranna strike helps)Normal sneak Attack: 1d6+1 +3.5 (aveage 1d6) = 8 damage.
Level 5 +1 short sword, 12 Str = 1d6+2 + 3d6 = average 16
"I know how to fix Sneak Attack! Limit it to once per round and reduce the damage bonus it gives, then tell rogues they all need to be Greatsword-swinging Str-based warriors to make up the difference!"
How exactly is this a good idea in any conceivable way?
I have been considering how much damage a raging Barbarian getting a critical hit with a great axe can do and I think allowing a Rogue to get up to that kind of damage is reasonable.
So as a house rule a Rogue at 1st level might get:
Critical Sneak Attack
Any time a Rogue scores a critical hit with a one-handed light or finesse weapon or a ranged piercing weapon they add their Sneak Attack dice from Rogue levels (and only Rogue levels). If the weapon has a x3 or x4 critical multiplier they add double their Rogue Sneak Attack dice. These extra dice are in addition to any Sneak Attack dice they are eligible for, such as flanking or the target being flatfooted.
So if a 5th level Rogue were to sneak up and shoot a flatfooted target with a short bow and scored a critical hit they would do: 3d6 + 3d6 Sneak Attack + 6d6 Critical Sneak Attack. For an average of 42 damage. Add in Point Blank Shot, maybe a +1 bow and +2 Str damage and that goes up to 54 damage. Good, but hardly unbalancing.
I really don't like Str Rogues, so I have no problem leaving them out of this benefit. And I like to pretend that x4 crit weapons don't exist. ;)
Something like this makes a Rogue's sneak attack better than everybody else's Sneak Attack, which it should be! The Assassin can still have his Death Attack to make him special, but he won't have the raw damage of a Rogue's Sneak Attack.
How about instead of the extra damage die, simply allow Rogues to add their Int modifier to damage rolls?
This could be precision damage, to keep the backstab flavor, and have the max Int bonus to damage limited to Rogue level, so it avoids dippers.
It deals less damage than rolling 5d6 or whatever, but it's also much less situational, only being innefective against creatures immunes to precision damage, which are not nearly as common in PF as they were in 3.X.
It'd would also mean Rogues have a real reason to invest in Int, so they can actually have more skills than Bards.
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A major problem with the rogue for me is the amazing number of lackluster talents and archetypes. A distressing number of talents are only useable Once-per-day. Once-per-day! They're extradinary abilities that do not use resources! Why does Camaflogue, Assault Leader, and Knock-out Blow Once-per-day abilities! Once-per-round is far more reasonable and increases the useability of many, many Rogue Talents.
And they could've had a thing with archetypes where they had a archetypes that focused on a set a skills and got half their level to certain skills sets. Instead we got a piddly +1 or +2 I'm seeing with some of them. Or something more combat orienated and robust than "You can take Combat Trick TWO TIMES! Oooooooo!" The Acrobat doesn't even get half their level to Acrobatics. And many times there's been an opportunity to turn trap sense into a scaling bonus to hit, saves, AC, etc, and they don't do it. And the Skirmisher archetype for Ranger has alot of abilities that I think Rogues should've have.
I totally agree. I've read an awful lot of rogue talents thinking "That's really cool!" until I get to the part where it says "once per day." Yeah. No thank you.
I can't make heads or tails as to why the vast majority of them even have such a limitation.
A major problem with the rogue for me is the amazing number of lackluster talents and archetypes. A distressing number of talents are only useable Once-per-day. Once-per-day! They're extradinary abilities that do not use resources! Why does Camaflogue, Assault Leader, and Knock-out Blow Once-per-day abilities! Once-per-round is far more reasonable and increases the useability of many, many Rogue Talents.
And they could've had a thing with archetypes where they had a archetypes that focused on a set a skills and got half their level to certain skills sets. Instead we got a piddly +1 or +2 I'm seeing with some of them. Or something more combat orienated and robust than "You can take Combat Trick TWO TIMES! Oooooooo!" The Acrobat doesn't even get half their level to Acrobatics. And many times there's been an opportunity to turn trap sense into a scaling bonus to hit, saves, AC, etc, and they don't do it. And the Skirmisher archetype for Ranger has alot of abilities that I think Rogues should've have.
I totally agree. I've read an awful lot of rogue talents thinking "That's really cool!" until I get to the part where it says "once per day." Yeah. No thank you.
I can't make heads or tails as to why the vast majority of them even have such a limitation.
Same here.
I totally agree. I've read an awful lot of rogue talents thinking "That's really cool!" until I get to the part where it says "once per day." Yeah. No thank you.
I can't make heads or tails as to why the vast majority of them even have such a limitation.
There you go, another house rule. Remove all "once per day" limitations from Rogue talents.
I'd rather it was errata'd out.
Expand it to 3 times per day as well and remove that too. Stuff like that really cripples rogue talents most.
For example, outside of tomb raiding traps are usually used as alarms. Being able to bypass them rather than setting them off with a summon or unseen servant is only an advantage when your party is stealthy enough to take advantage of the lack of alarm to get a surprise round.
It is very, very VERY rare in my experience that the pcs are ever allowed a surprise round on the monsters. The myraid of things that would stop the NPCs from ambushing the pc's largely get handwaived, but will come up in the inch by inch, step by step creep as pc's try to sneak up on the npcs.
I read this and it hurts my mind as to how badly some of you don't realize how nuts the rogue can get, I believe that they're one of the classes with the most potential for power. In the game I'm running now a player is using a rogue with two weapon fighting feats.
At level 8 when the get that sweet +6 BAB, you take combat trick to get your improved two weapon fighting, then at level 9 when you get your regular feat you take two weapon feint, which allows you to forgo your first attack to make a feint attempt that denies the enemies DEX until the end of your turn, and it magically doesn't require you to waste feats on the horrible Improved Feint, and even doesn't have Two Weapon Feint in the requirements to make things even more wonderful.
Rogues are nuts. Stealth Checks aren't the hardest thing in the world to pull off either, to repeat many many people on here, GMs just usually do it wrong.
BaconBastard: That sounds like a HORRIBLE build. Not only are you suffering from TWF penalties on a 3/4 BAB class, but you are ALSO giving up the one attack that might actually hit anything?
Unless you are fighting enemies way beneath your power level, it sounds to me like his damage output is going to be negligible. What's more, with the heavy feat/talent investment, he's not going to be so hot out of combat either.
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Indeed, we should stop trying to shore up the rogue's weaknesses and focus on the rogue's positive qualities, which are as follows:
> Almost as many skill points as bards and wizards
> Doesn't have a d6 hit die?
> I'm drawing a blank here
Rogue 8, Bard 6: 8>6 = win for rogue.
Rogue 8, Sorc/Wiz 2: 8>2 = win for rogue.Even with an 18 int the Wiz gets 2+4+1(favoured class) = 7. A Rogue would need an 8 intel to get the same.
The problems with the rogue class stem purely from all the splat books. If you use purely the core players guide then nothing comes close to doing what the rogue can do. Rogue is the only one of the core classes that gets disable as a start. It has the highest number of skill points, with the Bard only taking over at higher levels due to versatile performance - which is pretty fruity, but has got a massive overlap with the skills that the performances cover. Personally I find a well built, well played rogue can be a massive boon to any party. Generally it is only when you make one thinking that you are going to be the uber killing machine that you get dissapointed.
Rogues are support characters, they can easily cover ranged, traps, scouting, melee, be the socialite and via umd be a useful wand / scroll user for buffs and healing. Hell in the last game session we played my level 2/1 (rogue/bard) used a magic missile wand to kill a mob that had a fairly hefty DR/magic and we had no magic weapons, so things were looking pretty touch and go. In a previous session our cleric was on negative hit points and I was able to umd a wand of cure light to get him back up (pre bard level).
So far it's been an awesome built, level two you take the talent that gives you weapon finesse, level four the one for weapon focus, you play a human so you have TWF out the gates, once the opponent loses the DEX to AC your chances to hit go up to make up for passing on the first attack.
Also ranged rogues were brought up earlier, and you can make a stealth check immediately following a ranged attack (while at -20 which is rough stuff), to stay hidden. So provided that you're put together well and got everything possible in your favor, it is possible to snipe someone out and then duck away.
While enemies will obviously know something is up you still have that chance to fire off another sneak attack, or slink away using the enemy with a crossbow bolt in it's neck as a distraction.
Also people keep talking about performance stuff... why would anyone that's not a bard ever take one of those skills ever (except if you want to be a shadow dancer and the game forces you to waste skill points on something horrible and worthless for like 2 seconds of flavor)?
Rogue 8, Bard 6: 8>6 = win for rogue.
Versatile Performance. At 2nd level, the bard is able to max 8+Int skills, so right out of the gate the bard can already match the rogue, and because of the way Versatile Performance works, a Skill Focus helps the bard far more than it helps the rogue (since it applies to three skills for the price of one), so the bard is better at boosting skills too in a way that the pitiful Rogue Talents can't even touch. By 14th level, the bard can max 4 Perform skills and 10+Int other skills, while the rogue is still stuck at 8+Int.
Rogue 8, Sorc/Wiz 2: 8>2 = win for rogue.
Even with an 18 int the Wiz gets 2+4+1(favoured class) = 7. A Rogue would need an 8 intel to get the same.
So the wizard matches the rogue at low levels, shoots past the rogue at higher levels, and has spells that laugh at rogue skills anyhow - Invisibility is better than a stealth score, both numerically (+20 bonus is enormous) and qualitatively (since it allows stealth without cover or concealment).
And hey, guess who else can use wands of magic missile, and can do it better than rogues can? Wizards and bards.
Even restricted to core, rogues are sub-par at what is supposed to be their defining feature.
Also ranged rogues were brought up earlier, and you can make a stealth check immediately following a ranged attack (while at -20 which is rough stuff), to stay hidden. So provided that you're put together well and got everything possible in your favor, it is possible to snipe someone out and then duck away.
While enemies will obviously know something is up you still have that chance to fire off another sneak attack, or slink away using the enemy with a crossbow bolt in it's neck as a distraction.
It's a move action to re-stealth, so you can't use it in the surprise round, you can't full-attack, and you can't move away from the position where you exposed yourself (so even if enemies can't see you anymore, they still have a very good idea of where you are). And that -20 penalty is crippling.
If you want to snipe, be a class that gets Greater Invisibility. (As usual, if you want to do Rogue stuff, Rogue isn't actually a good choice.)
Also people keep talking about performance stuff... why would anyone that's not a bard ever take one of those skills ever (except if you want to be a shadow dancer and the game forces you to waste skill points on something horrible and worthless for like 2 seconds of flavor)?
Try actually reading Versatile Performance?
Again I said that I don't know why anyone that isn't a bard would put a rank in a preform skill, and last I checked you needed to be a bard to get Versatile Performance.
I never said that you would get your full attack when you snipe, but in the core rule book in stealth, it says that you can make dat check to remain hidden. If you pull that off it's beyond surprise round when you consider that the enemies are still not aware of your presence.
Also people keep talking about performance stuff... why would anyone that's not a bard ever take one of those skills ever (except if you want to be a shadow dancer and the game forces you to waste skill points on something horrible and worthless for like 2 seconds of flavor)?
Wait I'm confused. How is "Maxing out 3 skills for the price of one" useless again?
Again I said that I don't know why anyone that isn't a bard would put a rank in a preform skill, and last I checked you needed to be a bard to get Versatile Performance.
Ah, I see. In that case... try actually reading other people's posts better?
The point is that, by using Perform, bards actually get more effective skill points per level than Rogues do. In fact, they get more effective skill points per level in non-Perform skills than Rogues do - eventually hitting 10+Int. And they get twice as much out of Skill Focus. You want to be a skill monkey with more skills per level than anyone else? Bard or Wizard is the way to go, not Rogue.
I never said that you would get your full attack when you snipe, but in the core rule book in stealth, it says that you can make dat check to remain hidden. If you pull that off it's beyond surprise round when you consider that the enemies are still not aware of your presence.
Actually, it doesn't say you remain hidden, it says you can make the check to "use stealth again". You temporarily become visible when you attack, but you can re-hide afterward. Enemies do see you for a moment, and your position is revealed.
There's no "beyond surprise round" (whatever that means) at work here.
I understand that the comparison is number of skills for rogues vs bards, but alternately some of those skills that you get from your versatile performance are real lame, and I have never been like "my rogue or bard needs to have more skills."
"I know how to fix Sneak Attack! Limit it to once per round and reduce the damage bonus it gives, then tell rogues they all need to be Greatsword-swinging Str-based warriors to make up the difference!"
How exactly is this a good idea in any conceivable way?
It was how it was done 2E. Str based rogues were the best come to think of it.
Again I said that I don't know why anyone that isn't a bard would put a rank in a preform skill, and last I checked you needed to be a bard to get Versatile Performance.
Yep.
And when I go to make a skill monkey (and I have), I make a bard.
3-for-1 skill ranks on a skill you need anyway, plus good synergy with the Prodigy feat if you can spare the feat slots (you can't).
Plus, a LOT of useful skills are Charisma-based, giving the bard another edge.
I actually like rogues, a lot, but there isn't much of a case that they're mechanically superior to any other class. BAB hurts them in combat, TWF only makes that worse for insufficient bonus damage.
In my own campaign, the rogue received the following legs-up:
Even with all that, if it weren't for traps and locks, the rogue would have completely faded into the background.
I understand that the comparison is number of skills for rogues vs bards, but alternately some of those skills that you get from your versatile performance are real lame, and I have never been like "my rogue or bard needs to have more skills."
Like which one? The only "lame" ones are Handle Animal and maybe Bluff. You're getting Diplomacy AND Intimidate, Sense Motive, and a plethora of other skills that definitely aren't "lame" for free.
Well assuming that the rogue has a higher than 10 intel - my rogue has a 14, so I am getting 11 skill points with the favoured class bonus. A wizard with a starting intel of 18 gets 7 so that is 4 points less. Even if they put all 5 level up points into intel that would only net them an extra 2 skill points, getting them to 9 at level 20, which is still less than the 11 that my rogue is getting from level 1. Even with a 2 point difference that equates to 40 skill ranks over 20 levels, but in reality it will be much more than that as the Wizzy is only getting 1 extra skill rank at lvl 8 and 16. My rogue will net 62 more skill ranks than a max intel wizzy at level 20.
Wizard: (7*7) = 49 + (8*8) = 64 + (5*9) = 45 for a total of 158
Rogue: 20 * 11 = 220
Sure versatile performance makes a huge difference in the skill points a bard gets, but remember several of those skills overlap. A bard can get a total of 5 versatile performance choices but with the overlap you get;
Act (bluff / disguise),
Oratory (diplo / sense motive),
Dance (acrobatics / fly),
Percussion (handle animal / intim).
So if we work on a 14 intel just like my rogue and taking into acount VP;
lvl 1 = 9, 2-5 = 11, 6-9 = 13, 10-13 = 15, 14-17 = 17 and 18-20 gives you 19. Total skill points = 290
So a bard does indeed beat rogue in skill points by a whopping 70 skill ranks at level 20 - as long as equal int bonus..
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I understand that the comparison is number of skills for rogues vs bards, but alternately some of those skills that you get from your versatile performance are real lame, and I have never been like "my rogue or bard needs to have more skills."Like which one? The only "lame" ones are Handle Animal and maybe Bluff. You're getting Diplomacy AND Intimidate, Sense Motive, and a plethora of other skills that definitely aren't "lame" for free.
Not to mention Bards get to use their primary stat, Cha, for Sense Motive, Acrobatics and Fly.
Oh, and Bluff is really useful! Just have to be a litlle creative... ^^
Instead of asking/convincing/bribing the guard to give you information, just trick him into doing so without even realizing.
My gaming group used to joke that my Sorcerer's Bluff score was more useful and dangerous than any of his spells, and that at the end of the campaign, we'd find out that he had no magic at all, he just convinced everyone around that all that weird stuff was actually happening! lol
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Eldmar, you may have missed the change from 3.5, but in Pathfinder skill points from Intelligence is retroactive. Also you get skill points from magic items like a headband.
So at 20th level a Wizard starting with 18 Int will have an Int of at least 29. So that's 12 skill points per level including a favored class bonus.
20x12=240
So a friend and me just had an idea.
Give rogues an enhanced weapon finesse for free, letting them use more and better weapons with weapon finesse. (Because it´s kind of iconic)
Then have a classability or trick that let´s them make an acrobatic check and use that check instead of their BAB for attacks and maneuvers. If you are successfull or high enough (like 5 higher than AC) you land sneak attack. And let sneak attack crit.