Ultimate Eqiupment (sad face)


Product Discussion

Grand Lodge

So I got my copy of Ultimate Equpment finally. At least a physical copy. As I was flipping through I got to the last page and was so very disappointed in Paizo. An ad really in a hardcover that is already almost $50. I could see it in something that was not already so expensive of a book. I get that the short book are page crunched for space already but still guys I though better of these books. Is this going to be the new standard? If so I am not so sure I will want to grab anymore books sadly I do not buy all the lines but I am well aware of them.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Assuming it was an ad for one of their own products, then that's been common for a while. Pathfinder Society pdfs have ads for their games right at the end. Honestly, it's not that bad. It's not like the ads are in the middle of the content like a magazine would. And for people who purchase Paizo books and do not check out paizo.com, it's a way to let those customers know of upcoming or recent products they may be interested in.


If its the very last page... who cares, just ignore it. Its not like its hindering the book in any way. And its not like they had another page of content to add and decidced to put advertisement instead. They just added it in the back to let other people know more about their other products. Which means they sell more, which means they have more profit, which means they release more content for the rest of us.


To be honest, I've not seen an RPG book in a long time that doesn't have an ad in the back for their upcoming products.


I remember my old-school basic D&D red box had a few ads on the last page. This has been a long-time method of advertising to fans--it's using up a couple pages near the end to inform you about other products of the company's. And seriously, what's the actual issue with this?

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

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There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

Shadow Lodge

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Merchandising! Pathfinder the T-shirt! Pathfinder the breakfast cereal! Pathfinder the Flamethrower!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I need me a Pathfinder the Flamethrower.


Personally, I've never had an issue with advertisements in the hardcovers. They are usually only one to two pages of advertisements and are lodged way in the back. And honestly, I don't have an issue with a company advertising in their books, especially since not everyone that starts Pathfinder learned about it from the web. The first printing of the Core Rulebook had the "3.5 Survives" ad in the back. It's since been replaced with a single ad for their other hardcover books.

In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't an issue nor is it a sign of Paizo being dishonest or selling out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Just checked my 1st printing of the Core Rulebook, got full page ads for the Bestiary in the back. Not a new thing.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I'll take "Much ado about nothing, for 600, Alex."

Only annoyance is when I forget to not print that page of the PDF in my scenario packs.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

This is an extremely flip attitude to take toward the concerns of a paying customer. Actually, pretty poor social skills for a representative of any company to display (audience paying or not.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Paizo tends to take the stance of 'if we are no longer providing the product you want, we do not want you to continue to purchase it'.

Immaterial complaints get immaterial responses.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Paizo, please remove your logo from the book. It's taking up valuable space that could be used for something more relevant to what I spend my money on.

/sarcasm.


Um, what is the problem with the ad anyway? Its a full page image of the cover of the NPC Guide in the back of mine which is nice. Its not like its an ad for washing detergent or snacks.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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The back of my 1E PHB has a page and a half list of other fine RPG products available from TSR Hobbies, plus a half-page ad for GenCon.

I want my money back.


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BigDTBone wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

This is an extremely flip attitude to take toward the concerns of a paying customer. Actually, pretty poor social skills for a representative of any company to display (audience paying or not.)

I actually prefer his response, i mean what else would he do? Ignore this guy? That seems equally if not more rude. Or perhaps you would like him to give a press release and apology for letting people know that if they like what they bought, they have more stuff to go with it?

Jeven wrote:
Um, what is the problem with the ad anyway? Its a full page image of the cover of the NPC Guide in the back of mine which is nice. Its not like its an ad for washing detergent or snacks.

^^ cant say it better than that.


You do realize that books are composed of folios, right? If a book doesn't come out even you have blank pages at the end. There's no reason not to put adds there. I don't think I've ever seen book add space sold, but other similar products by the same publisher? All the time. Sometimes the whole first chapter of the next book in the series as a teaser.


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Wyran wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

This is an extremely flip attitude to take toward the concerns of a paying customer. Actually, pretty poor social skills for a representative of any company to display (audience paying or not.)

I actually prefer his response, i mean what else would he do? Ignore this guy? That seems equally if not more rude. Or perhaps you would like him to give a press release and apology for letting people know that if they like what they bought, they have more stuff to go with it?

How about something professional and not antagonistic toward the customers of the company he works for/represents. i.e. "We use the last page of our products to keep customers who do not frequent our website aware of the other products scheduled to release in the near future. While we understand that page space is at a premium we nevertheless find it a necessity from a business perspective to include this relatively small amount of advertising. I appreciate your feedback, but we will not be making changes to this practice at this time nor any time in the foreseeable future."

That would have been ok.


Exactly what Atarlost said. A bound book is made of signatures, which have a certain number of pages. If Paizo were short, say, two pages of content, they'd have to either a) fill those pages somehow (in this case with ads, since I'm sure they'd use more content if they had it), b) leave them blank (which looks awful), or c) cut that signature altogether, which means eliminating over a dozen pages of actual book content.

I'd rather have a page or two of ads at the back than blank pages, or worse, miss out on a signature's worth of game content.

Grand Lodge

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BigDTBone wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

This is an extremely flip attitude to take toward the concerns of a paying customer. Actually, pretty poor social skills for a representative of any company to display (audience paying or not.)

Wait a second.. IS it not allowed to have a humorous approach to how things are dealt with.

I get you are not happy but humor is humor. It was not at someone's expense or anything like that and it was harmless... not flippant at all. So cut them a break for heavens sake.

Grand Lodge

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At the back of the book there is usually a backing page that is left blank. So the AD takes that place. Cool. It is an AD. the backing page is gone so it is not taking any page count up.. Not seeing the problem at all!!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
Wyran wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

This is an extremely flip attitude to take toward the concerns of a paying customer. Actually, pretty poor social skills for a representative of any company to display (audience paying or not.)

I actually prefer his response, i mean what else would he do? Ignore this guy? That seems equally if not more rude. Or perhaps you would like him to give a press release and apology for letting people know that if they like what they bought, they have more stuff to go with it?

How about something professional and not antagonistic toward the customers of the company he works for/represents. i.e. "We use the last page of our products to keep customers who do not frequent our website aware of the other products scheduled to release in the near future. While we understand that page space is at a premium we nevertheless find it a necessity from a business perspective to include this relatively small amount of advertising. I appreciate your feedback, but we will not be making changes to this practice at this time nor any time in the foreseeable future."

That would have been ok.

Well said!

I have no problem at all with the advertisment but that was quite unprofessional to say the least.
With that said sarcasm with a touch of levity can either defuse or antagonize people.


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I'll say first that there is no absolute right or wrong way to approach it here.

But as a Paizo customer, I'll just say that I PREFER Sean K. Reynold's approach!

Do I want devs who are obsequious and give me bland corporate-talk all the time? Nope. Sure, there are genuine issues out there that call for delicacy -- dealing with strong opinions on the monk class or on mythic rules, for example. And the Paizo staff gives that in spades.

But bending over backwards for every individual in the ether who has a bone to pick? I think not. I think Sean Reynolds treated the OP with as much consideration as the OP gave the company -- not much. Which, in THIS case at least I think was appropriate.

I know that if *I* were in the corporate chair always dealing with customers with innumerable complaints, some of which were not-well-thought-out but still required some sensitivity and care, the occasional WTF non-sequitor would make me laugh out loud and relish the opportunity to respond with appropriate disdain.

Just my +1.


I second the need for "Pathfinder the Flamethrower".

And perhaps the Nissan Pathfinder. I mean c'mon!!! Why aren't the Japanese all over this? Somebody get me Carlos Ghosn on the phone.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

+1 for finding Sean's response appropriate to the inquiry and being sick of corporate "bless-their-little-hearts-speak".

Also, I really want to see a Pathfinderized Nissan Pathfinder... to combine the brilliance, maybe with something similar to one of those south african flamethrower defense systems for goblin hordes... hmmmm...

-TimD


If the greatest complaint one has is about a touch of self-promotion inside a product that was funded in part by other self-promotions in an unobtrusive manner and has done so from the initial print run of the product (And I checked - my Core Rulebook has one in the back, gasp!)...

Then, really, somebody's doing something right.

And this gives more than sufficient grounds to be slightly 'flip' about complaints about said long-standing practice.

Fortunately, I'm not in a position where my desire to answer said grievance with a faux-Russian declaration of "CRY MORE" will cause anything more than the rightful assumption that one member of the fandom is not entirely sympathetic to what comes across as a case of King Customer. :D

*edited to correct phraseology*


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Atarlost and El Ronza are correct. I work in the publishing/printing industry and when binding a book they typically have to have pages divisible by 4 or 8 depending on how it is bound and the size of the book. It is industry standard to put filler on any extra pages instead of just leaving them blank, so promoting a new book they they will be releasing in the future is 100% acceptable.

I mean really, did the OP just post this to cry about nothing, or just to be a troll?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Morbidsoul wrote:
I mean really, did the OP just post this to cry about nothing, or just to be a troll?

You should maybe wait for him to actually come back and respond to Sean before you cast aspersions on his character.

Sczarni

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh, come on, just cut that page out with some scissors and fold it into a paper airplane. Then write a post thanking Paizo for the free extra paper airplane paper they included with their book!

Shadow Lodge

You're awful wise for a kobold...


Deanoth wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

This is an extremely flip attitude to take toward the concerns of a paying customer. Actually, pretty poor social skills for a representative of any company to display (audience paying or not.)

Wait a second.. IS it not allowed to have a humorous approach to how things are dealt with.

I get you are not happy but humor is humor. It was not at someone's expense or anything like that and it was harmless... not flippant at all. So cut them a break for heavens sake.

I've said my piece on this, and some posts (including a response to me by SKR) have been removed without the normal moderator tag so I am taking this as a sign to let well enough alone.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

3 people marked this as a favorite.

We think that people who like our products enough to buy them and read them might actually want to be informed about the existence of related products that they might like. We've done it in most products, and we will continue to do it in most products.


Trinite wrote:
Oh, come on, just cut that page out with some scissors and fold it into a paper airplane. Then write a post thanking Paizo for the free extra paper airplane paper they included with their book!

Quite possible the best thing i have heard in a very long time. Just made my day.


Robert Jordan wrote:
I need me a Pathfinder the Flamethrower.

Da kids love it!

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber
Trinite wrote:
Oh, come on, just cut that page out with some scissors and fold it into a paper airplane. Then write a post thanking Paizo for the free extra paper airplane paper they included with their book!

But... without... SCISSORS... included? How THOUGHTLESS of them!


rknop wrote:
But... without... SCISSORS... included? How THOUGHTLESS of them!

Scissors are included in the deluxe collector's edition.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TOZ wrote:
Pathfinder the Flamethrower!

If I have another kid, that will be his/her name.

-Skeld

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Damon Griffin wrote:
rknop wrote:
But... without... SCISSORS... included? How THOUGHTLESS of them!
Scissors are included in the deluxe collector's edition.

They really ought to package the scissors with the PDFs, too. Yet another way in which PDF customers get screwed!

Dark Archive

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook, too.

SCaaaaAAAAAaAAAaaarryyyyy!

... sweet Asmodeus, there really is an ad in the back of the Core Rulebook. In fact, there's an ad in the back of every Pathfinder hardcover book! Sean, I want my money back... ;P

Alright, seriously, all in all it's something like thirteen pages; and these are not some random ads. As Vic said, they want to inform their customers of upcoming Pathfinder releases, and I'm totally fine with that. It'd be a whole different matter if we were talking about 5-10 pages in every AP or Companion book.

A single page devoted to an ad? I'm far more concerned about so many SIAC and "+X to ability Y" items (for example, all those belts) in UE; it's highly discouraged in Paizo Superstar, but somehow quite a few ended up being printed in an official PF supplement? Otherwise this book is very good; I especially love the random treasure tables, but also that I don't need any other books to equip my PCs and NPCs.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Asgetrion wrote:
A single page devoted to an ad? I'm far more concerned about so many SIAC and "+X to ability Y" items (for example, all those belts) in UE; it's highly discouraged in Paizo Superstar, but somehow quite a few ended up being printed in an official PF supplement?

As we've said many times over the course of RPG Superstar, "just because something is 'good enough for a book of magic items' doesn't mean it's a superstar item."

A +2 belt of strength is a useful item. But it's boring. Not superstar. Ditto for a pair of boots that gives you +5 to Stealth. Or even a ring of three wishes. Useful? Yes. Innovative? No. Superstar? No.

Scarab Sages

There was an ad page in the back of 1st ed books too If I recall, at least one of the early printings, for other TSR items, like Boot Hill I think. So...not a new concept.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
redcelt32 wrote:
There was an ad page in the back of 1st ed books too If I recall, at least one of the early printings, for other TSR items, like Boot Hill I think. So...not a new concept.

You can take it back even earlier than that. The last page of "Men & Magic" (the first booklet of the three-volume box set) is taken up by a list of the available TSR products (complete with prices).


I'd also imagine it's to keep the page count divisible by 4 to keep in line for printing.

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