Hello forum!
I am going to play as a Sorcerer for the first time tomorrow, (I've played wizards before, but after reading about sorcerers every day this week I am starting to feel just how different they are) and all I've nailed down so far is that I'm going to be a merman (it's a caribbean pirate style campaign and I really like the idea. Also, I'm NOT going to take strongtail.).
I'm joining a level 6 party with a barbarian(strong melee), a ranger(strong melee), and a bard(He doesn't do anything. Not even sing, I hear). It's a RP-heavy group, with heavy and really dangerous encounters. They've had multiple player deaths already, but we hope to make it to lvl 20 (fast xp progression). I'm tempted to try a blaster, but intrigued by save or suck style.
I get the following stats to put where I want: 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.
If I'm a blaster, after merfolk bonuses, I'm thinking:
str 11
dex 18
con 16
int 12
wis 13
cha 18
Or as a save-or-suck-caster:
str 11
dex 16
con 17
int 12
wis 13
cha 19
I might take darkvision instead of low light vision if I go for save-or-suck, as -1 to hit won't be an issue.
I've looked at feats, and spell perfection seems like a must-have spell for any sorcerer.
Draconic and elemental bloodlines look very tempting thanks to the flying. Celestial, too, a bit, but I'm not sure about this one.
I don't think crossblooded, while extremely tempting, is an option, simply because I wouldn't be able to start with the fins to feet spell... And the 2 lvls behind thing is really bad.
Other than this I'm pretty much uncertain about everything. So, uh, yeah, I wish I had more time, but I really don't, and studies have been killing me this week, so I'll gladly take extensive suggestions on what kind of merfolk sorcerer might be fun to play.
Well, for starters, I gotta ask. What are your spells looking like? Spell selection is one of the most important things on any sorcerer. You really need versatility in most cases. Or have you not chosen yet?
Bloodline is probably on par for importance, but still probably less of a big deal than good spell selection.
Edit: And are you sure you want Fins to Feet? It seems like a bit of a waste to use one of your highest level spell slots just to regularly get the same land speed most people already have, not to mention it'd be your only available third level spell. Mount could do something similar for twice as long on a first level spell (large size of the mount notwithstanding), and for a level 3 spell, you can grab Fly for much more maneuverability when you need it. If/when you get access to Overland Flight, your worries are done.
Scorching ray is a must have for a blaster...
Glitterdust and grease are awesome...
Black tentacles...?
Fly, overland flight, greater invisibility, polymorph self (I've heard tales of fearsome pixie-sized sorcerers)...
Mount could be good, but I feel like the DM is going to give me troubles with it. "No. A Mount can't possibly enter here, or climb there."
I'm very open on spell suggestions, too. I'm currently reading https://docs.google.com/document/d/13MRfgZWlAakfd06JnboqbK6xNdb2Ht63dYqVg2k pGiI/edit to find suggestions there, too.
Black tentacles is pretty awesome, provided you get enough enemies to make it worthwhile.
The best thing I can advise is try to avoid redundancy on the spells you take - Example, if you're gonna go blaster, at least make sure to pick up different elements, and single target/AoE spells.
Truth be told though, you don't necessarily need to cement yourself into a specific style. Pretty much the main point of sorcerers is versatility. Grab a few AoE's for when enemies are clustered, and single target save or sucks for stronger ones. You can pick up some party support, (I'm going to bet Haste for the Barbarian and Ranger will make them extremely happy), and enemy debuffs and such. And you can grab what you need when the situation arises. Obviously, you'll be more limited than a wizard in terms of what you know, but you'll always have them ready, hence the focus on making sure the spells you pick will be either highly versatile or at least varied.
On that note, segueing into Bloodlines, the spells you get from your bloodline are big things to think about, in addition to the Arcana and Powers.
Just to discuss the ones you mentioned:
Draconic is great for a blaster, but it does sort of force you to specialize in your chosen element, which can be problematic when enemies with resistance or immunity show up. Elemental spell is actually very good with this though, because it doesn't change the energy descriptor of your spell. Even if you convert a scorching ray to cold or acid damage, if your dragon color is red it'll get the bonus damage.
Elemental is great for blasters in the exact opposite line of reasoning. It promotes versatility. Every elemental spell you pick up that isn't your primary energy type, is now like two spells - one of its own element, and one of yours.
If you want to do some blasting, both of these are probably really nice bloodlines to take, and the powers they grant are certainly nice.
One that I will point out, if your source books aren't restricted, is the Orc Bloodline. Personally, I don't think the powers are as nice as those granted by Draconic or Elemental, but the arcana is basically the same as Draconic but without any restriction on energy type, so there is that.
I don't know, it's tough to really get into too many specifics, since Sorcerers can all look amazingly different depending on bloodline and spell selection.
I'd go wide, especially if this is your first sorceror.
Have an area effect spell, and a single target spell. Have spells that buff allies and spells that debuff your foes. Be able to target Fortitude, Reflex, Will, and touch AC.
And please, PLEASE check with the DM before you show up with a merman. If you think he's going to be tough on you with where mounts can go, he might be incredibly tough on what you can do with fins. If you can't get to all areas of your own ship, you're in trouble.
For a similar aquatic feel, consider lizard man or gill man.
Spell selection is the single biggest thing about sorcerers.
Have a variety of things to do. Area effect damage, single target damage, spells that target at least two different saves and preferably all three, some spells that are useful out of combat (social or travel situations), and preferably spells that do multiple things at once.
Another way of thinking: never pick a spell that does just the something as one of your existing spells, only better. Or ifyou do, swap out the now redundant spell.
Note that sorcerers with their high charisma nada bluff as a class skill ought to be able to do lots of things out of combat. You won't have lots of skills but a social one should definitely appear on your list somewhere.
Thank you for all your advice. I ended up going wide, but lacked quite a bit in the DPR-department. I actually followed the reality manipulator build in this guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aixPcR_eT0re47tG_HfisyjS58NE93MIQcutPA7 kSaE/edit#heading=h.qi1enytwybvg
In retrospect I should've taken burning arc/scorching ray and/or fireball. After I had cast glitterdust, grease and stinking cloud all over the place, the ranger and barbarian didn't manage to output enough damage to cope with the encounters, and I felt kind of useless just vanishing/levitating/hiding behind cover while magic missile'ing... The DM will allow me to recreate the character as I wish, so while glitterdust/grease/stinking cloud were awesome, and I'm probably still going to get them, I'm definitely going to emphasize on facemelting.
So my facemelter is less scared of going crossblooded... I can always use the higher lvl slots for metamagic, which is cool.
Statline with the headband of alluring charisma that I acquired this session:
str: 11
dex: 17
con: 14
int: 14
wis: 13
cha: 23
Bloodlines: Draconic, Elemental, Primal, Orc. Crossblooded?
Damage/evocation Spells
lvl 1: magic missile or burning hands?
lvl 2: burning arc.
lvl 3: fireball?
lvl 4: Ball Lightning?
lvl 5: ???
Conjuration spells:
lvl 1: grease
lvl 2: glitterdust
lvl 3: stinking cloud
lvl 4: black tentacles
lvl 5: wall of stone
Defensive Spells & buffs
vanish, mage armor, levitate, invisibility, fly, haste, dimension door, overland flight, teleport... I want some sort of polymorph self spell that can make me tiny, flying and still cast spells.
Instead of conjuration I COULD go for summoning, as that'll make haste that much more awesome, for example.
I'm going to have to research higher lvl spells because I've never really been much higher lvl, even with my wizards, and I remember feeling that lvl 4 spells felt underpowered compared to the allmighty fireball and scorching ray...
Spells on wands
Mount, expeditious retreat, communal mount... (I'm a merman without strongtail, after all... I did get a pair of boots of striding and springing this session, though!)
Feats
Spell focus (evocation)
Spell focus (conjuration)
Spell Perfection
I probably should take combat casting...
Metamagic
Dazing Spell
???
???
I've looked at the tesla coil build in the guide I linked higher up, and it looks tempting. I could go for it, except:
1. I'm not sure I understand the Varisian tattoo stuff. Doesn't look great, except for the DC increase.
3. The build doesn't go beyond lvl 12 and I want a plan to lvl 20...
I haven't really looked too far ahead concerning feats or spells as I really have no clue what lies down those levels. I'll gladly take suggestions/thoughts on anything. The only things set in stone that I'm a merfolk sorcerer who wants to melt face, as they say, while at the same time not being completely useless when I meet something immune to my nukes.
Level 4 spells do different things than damage -- they let you break the rules in a big way. Dimension door bypasses obstacles, fear and confusion break up crowds of enemies and own those big stupid monsters with lots of hit points. Enervation spectacularly nukes everything a big bad guy does, including his saving throws against the next attack. Acid pit, tentacles, or walls of fire/ice break up your enemies into smaller groups which can then be dealt with piecemeal. Ice storm does mass damage with no save. If you want damaging 4th level spells, just metamagic up fireball or scorching ray.
I suspect that if a ranger and a barbarian together can't put out enough damage, the problem isn't your lack of face melting spells, it's their lack of chutney-producing skills. Give them haste or heroism or flanking buddies, or even lower-level spells. You'd be amazed how much more effective a few low-level buff spells make fighter types. As for damage spells, the single most effective blast spell in any wizard's arsenal is -- "I dimension door the hasted raging barbarian next to the enemy. His turn. He full attacks."
Summon monster IV can be pretty effective, too. Hound archon, anyone? Pack of dire apes? Summoning, though, is much more effective if you build for it, particularly Augmetnt Summoning and Sperior Summoning, and you want to do that from the beginning, not in mid-course.
Well, if you're gonna go crossblooded, consider Draconic/Elemental on some energy type you like. Unlike the Elemental Spell metamagic, the Elemental bloodline arcana does change the type of spell to match the new energy, meaning whenever you convert a spell into your primary energy type, you'll also get the Draconic bloodline's boost to damage. Picking up spells of different energy types then allows for more versatility if you find something immune to your element, as you can simply use them without converting the damage, and you'll only miss the Draconic boost.
Definitely keep some good utility/party support/battlefield control spells. If something is immune to all of your blasting (through high SR or whatever else), you don't want to be sitting there doing nothing. At least have a couple buffs you can give the rest of the party (Haste comes to mind) and you should probably grab some spell that avoid SR (on that note, do pick up some acid damage spells - as they usually avoid SR, they're pretty nice, and if you do go Draconic/Elemental, you can still convert their energy type for extra damage).
I wouldn't worry about combat casting all that much. Ideally, you shouldn't be getting threatened often, and if you do, your highest level spells at the moment only require a 21 on concentration, which you've got a +12 on. Though admittedly... having a speed of 5 feet does mean you can't 5-foot step, I suppose :/
Level 4 spells do different things than damage -- they let you break the rules in a big way. Dimension door bypasses obstacles, fear and confusion break up crowds of enemies and own those big stupid monsters with lots of hit points. Enervation spectacularly nukes everything a big bad guy does, including his saving throws against the next attack. Acid pit, tentacles, or walls of fire/ice break up your enemies into smaller groups which can then be dealt with piecemeal. Ice storm does mass damage with no save. If you want damaging 4th level spells, just metamagic up fireball or scorching ray.
I suspect that if a ranger and a barbarian together can't put out enough damage, the problem isn't your lack of face melting spells, it's their lack of chutney-producing skills. Give them haste or heroism or flanking buddies, or even lower-level spells. You'd be amazed how much more effective a few low-level buff spells make fighter types. As for damage spells, the single most effective blast spell in any wizard's arsenal is -- "I dimension door the hasted raging barbarian next to the enemy. His turn. He full attacks."
Summon monster IV can be pretty effective, too. Hound archon, anyone? Pack of dire apes? Summoning, though, is much more effective if you build for it, particularly Augmetnt Summoning and Sperior Summoning, and you want to do that from the beginning, not in mid-course.
So what do you call that overly imba spell?
Imba?
that sounds like a horribly imbalanced spell. I was just curious what you called it.
I'm still not sure what you're asking about. Could you please be more specific?
As for damage spells, the single most effective blast spell in any wizard's arsenal is -- "I dimension door the hasted raging barbarian next to the enemy. His turn. He full attacks."
I'm not saying that its imbalanced, just that it's very powerful.
The power is balanced by the risk, which is that if the raging barbarian doesn't kill the target the wizard is now right next to him.
As for power, you will need to look long and hard before you find a spell capable of doing more damage to a single target than a full-BAB class of the same level as the wizard executing a full attack.
I think IejirIsk is impressed with your suggestion. I'd read "imba" as "awesome" in this case. And "Surprise axe-wounds" sounds like a fitting name. :D
I really like this suggestion and your suggestions overall, tonyz. We did meet a lot of constructs this session and struggled with the DR of 10 and big spell resistance these constructs had, though, so that's part of the reason they didn't do much damage. He's got an adamantine axe now, so I guess we'll see next session. :D At any rate, I do like summoning and buffing, too, and I'm sure they'll love some flanking partners and buffs. I'm leaning towards this, now. :P
Well, if you're gonna go crossblooded, consider Draconic/Elemental on some energy type you like. Unlike the Elemental Spell metamagic, the Elemental bloodline arcana does change the type of spell to match the new energy, meaning whenever you convert a spell into your primary energy type, you'll also get the Draconic bloodline's boost to damage. Picking up spells of different energy types then allows for more versatility if you find something immune to your element, as you can simply use them without converting the damage, and you'll only miss the Draconic boost.
I have considered that, but I'm still not sure, so I'd love some opinions on that combination vs the other combinations.
Definitely keep some good utility/party support/battlefield control spells. If something is immune to all of your blasting (through high SR or whatever else), you don't want to be sitting there doing nothing. At least have a couple buffs you can give the rest of the party (Haste comes to mind) and you should probably grab some spell that avoid SR (on that note, do pick up some acid damage spells - as they usually avoid SR, they're pretty nice, and if you do go Draconic/Elemental, you can still convert their energy type for extra damage).
Do you have any suggestions of good non-SR spells?
I wouldn't worry about combat casting all that much. Ideally, you shouldn't be getting threatened often, and if you do, your highest level spells at the moment only require a 21 on concentration, which you've got a +12 on.
Yeah, I didn't get threatened once this last session...(2 combats) But when I do, a 45% chance to fail is a bit much, wouldn't your agree?
Though admittedly... having a speed of 5 feet does mean you can't 5-foot step, I suppose :/
I've got boots of striding and springing on, so np there. ;)
@dzyu Yea, like the name.
SR damage, you probably looking at conjuration. and for control, the Protean Bloodline lvl 1 ability amuses me. potentially rather effective.
for combat casting, usually you can 5'
iirc acid works well on constructs, and low level SR... acid splash :D yea, its a 1d3 but free, no SR, good at opening chests (at least as of 3.5 with acid going around hardness... stupid wooden tables resistant to fire....at least there was a lightning bolt...)
The thing with golems and constructs and such is that they (usually) have extremely low saves and no skills. So, for instance, dropping one into a pit (create pit et sequelae), or using grease to knock it prone, can both be very effective. Hardness is much more difficult to affect, at least at low levels.
One thing with summoned creatures is that, even if they can't hit themselves very well, they can always flank, aid another, and get in the way of enemy blows. However, trying to get them to do complicated tactics usually requires the ability to communicate with them (unless, say, they're natural pack hunters like wolves.)
The major problem I see here is mobility. Overland Flight is a 5th level spell, which means that you are 4 levels away from gaining it. Other spells that could give you legs have durations in the minutes per level range, which means that most of the time you will not be able to move very well on land. That fins to feet spell that others dismissed becomes a necessity for you.
Still -- if you want an aquatic character, maybe you should consider an undine? Unlike a merman, an undine can function perfectly well on land, and he can select racial features that make him fully aquatic as well. This race is also better balanced than either a merfolk (overpowered once you overcome the mobility problem) or a gillman (seriously underpowered).
Merfolk seems like a huge problem to me. But that is between you and your group to see if you can make it work.
I would not try to outdo a barbarian at single target dpr. That is there specialty. You might be able to do it if you really specialize and are willing to go nova and blow a whole bunch of spells in one fight. But it is hard and you might be mostly burnt out after 1 or 2 fights.
Evoking is fun and I always take a few evokation spells for when needed and useful. Also area effect spells are fun. But for the most part I usually find I have something better to do than burning one opponent.
Have at least 1 of several different categories of spells. It is even better if 1 spell fits into several categories, like reduce can be a buff for you or a debuf of someone else
- No save spell (like most ray attacks)
- All three saves. So if you are fighting a cleric he probably has a poor reflex save so hit him with that.
- Buff (haste)
- Debuff (I love slow when it works)
- Multiple targets or area of affect (grease or burning hands)
- Defense and/or escape (shield or dimension door)
- Information gathering (cham monster or seek thoughts)
- Just for fun (I am currently in love with chain of perdition and pilfering hand)
Last time we fought golems I used grease and create pit to seperate and slow them. Then I just waited while the maritals would pound 1 of them to rubble. When one would finally manage to climb out of the greasy pit before they were finished with the other, I would just do it again.
You have a huge spell list even if you don't know very many. Also remember that UMD is a class skill for you. Keep that up and eventually you can use almost any scrolls (or whatever) at will. A couple scrolls of versatile weapon would have made the golems much easier and been very much worth the cost.
Every time we think it might be useful to have a scroll (of say shrink item) on a mission, I buy 1 and the group buys 1. Then I can use the group purchased one to help complete the mission. And I have one for later when it unexpectedly becomes useful again. When ever I do get good use out of one, I buy at least one more (probably 2). My sorcerer is now walking around with more low level scrolls (from several classes) than most wizards I've seen.
I made a merfolk sorcerer once. Perhaps it will help you with your own idea?