Dzyu's page

I think IejirIsk is impressed with your suggestion. I'd read "imba" as "awesome" in this case. And "Surprise axe-wounds" sounds like a fitting name. :D

I really like this suggestion and your suggestions overall, tonyz. We did meet a lot of constructs this session and struggled with the DR of 10 and big spell resistance these constructs had, though, so that's part of the reason they didn't do much damage. He's got an adamantine axe now, so I guess we'll see next session. :D At any rate, I do like summoning and buffing, too, and I'm sure they'll love some flanking partners and buffs. I'm leaning towards this, now. :P

Well, if you're gonna go crossblooded, consider Draconic/Elemental on some energy type you like. Unlike the Elemental Spell metamagic, the Elemental bloodline arcana does change the type of spell to match the new energy, meaning whenever you convert a spell into your primary energy type, you'll also get the Draconic bloodline's boost to damage. Picking up spells of different energy types then allows for more versatility if you find something immune to your element, as you can simply use them without converting the damage, and you'll only miss the Draconic boost.

I have considered that, but I'm still not sure, so I'd love some opinions on that combination vs the other combinations.

Definitely keep some good utility/party support/battlefield control spells. If something is immune to all of your blasting (through high SR or whatever else), you don't want to be sitting there doing nothing. At least have a couple buffs you can give the rest of the party (Haste comes to mind) and you should probably grab some spell that avoid SR (on that note, do pick up some acid damage spells - as they usually avoid SR, they're pretty nice, and if you do go Draconic/Elemental, you can still convert their energy type for extra damage).

Do you have any suggestions of good non-SR spells?

I wouldn't worry about combat casting all that much. Ideally, you shouldn't be getting threatened often, and if you do, your highest level spells at the moment only require a 21 on concentration, which you've got a +12 on.

Yeah, I didn't get threatened once this last session...(2 combats) But when I do, a 45% chance to fail is a bit much, wouldn't your agree?

Though admittedly... having a speed of 5 feet does mean you can't 5-foot step, I suppose :/

I've got boots of striding and springing on, so np there. ;)

Thank you for all your advice. I ended up going wide, but lacked quite a bit in the DPR-department. I actually followed the reality manipulator build in this guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aixPcR_eT0re47tG_HfisyjS58NE93MIQcutPA7 kSaE/edit#heading=h.qi1enytwybvg
In retrospect I should've taken burning arc/scorching ray and/or fireball. After I had cast glitterdust, grease and stinking cloud all over the place, the ranger and barbarian didn't manage to output enough damage to cope with the encounters, and I felt kind of useless just vanishing/levitating/hiding behind cover while magic missile'ing... The DM will allow me to recreate the character as I wish, so while glitterdust/grease/stinking cloud were awesome, and I'm probably still going to get them, I'm definitely going to emphasize on facemelting.

So my facemelter is less scared of going crossblooded... I can always use the higher lvl slots for metamagic, which is cool.

Statline with the headband of alluring charisma that I acquired this session:

str: 11
dex: 17
con: 14
int: 14
wis: 13
cha: 23

Bloodlines: Draconic, Elemental, Primal, Orc. Crossblooded?

Damage/evocation Spells
lvl 1: magic missile or burning hands?
lvl 2: burning arc.
lvl 3: fireball?
lvl 4: Ball Lightning?
lvl 5: ???

Conjuration spells:
lvl 1: grease
lvl 2: glitterdust
lvl 3: stinking cloud
lvl 4: black tentacles
lvl 5: wall of stone

Defensive Spells & buffs
vanish, mage armor, levitate, invisibility, fly, haste, dimension door, overland flight, teleport... I want some sort of polymorph self spell that can make me tiny, flying and still cast spells.

Instead of conjuration I COULD go for summoning, as that'll make haste that much more awesome, for example.

I'm going to have to research higher lvl spells because I've never really been much higher lvl, even with my wizards, and I remember feeling that lvl 4 spells felt underpowered compared to the allmighty fireball and scorching ray...

Spells on wands
Mount, expeditious retreat, communal mount... (I'm a merman without strongtail, after all... I did get a pair of boots of striding and springing this session, though!)

Feats
Spell focus (evocation)
Spell focus (conjuration)
Spell Perfection
I probably should take combat casting...

Metamagic
Dazing Spell
???
???

I've looked at the tesla coil build in the guide I linked higher up, and it looks tempting. I could go for it, except:
1. I'm not sure I understand the Varisian tattoo stuff. Doesn't look great, except for the DC increase.
3. The build doesn't go beyond lvl 12 and I want a plan to lvl 20...

I haven't really looked too far ahead concerning feats or spells as I really have no clue what lies down those levels. I'll gladly take suggestions/thoughts on anything. The only things set in stone that I'm a merfolk sorcerer who wants to melt face, as they say, while at the same time not being completely useless when I meet something immune to my nukes.

Scorching ray is a must have for a blaster...
Glitterdust and grease are awesome...
Black tentacles...?

Fly, overland flight, greater invisibility, polymorph self (I've heard tales of fearsome pixie-sized sorcerers)...

Mount could be good, but I feel like the DM is going to give me troubles with it. "No. A Mount can't possibly enter here, or climb there."

I'm very open on spell suggestions, too. I'm currently reading https://docs.google.com/document/d/13MRfgZWlAakfd06JnboqbK6xNdb2Ht63dYqVg2k pGiI/edit to find suggestions there, too.

Hello forum!

I am going to play as a Sorcerer for the first time tomorrow, (I've played wizards before, but after reading about sorcerers every day this week I am starting to feel just how different they are) and all I've nailed down so far is that I'm going to be a merman (it's a caribbean pirate style campaign and I really like the idea. Also, I'm NOT going to take strongtail.).

I'm joining a level 6 party with a barbarian(strong melee), a ranger(strong melee), and a bard(He doesn't do anything. Not even sing, I hear). It's a RP-heavy group, with heavy and really dangerous encounters. They've had multiple player deaths already, but we hope to make it to lvl 20 (fast xp progression). I'm tempted to try a blaster, but intrigued by save or suck style.

I get the following stats to put where I want: 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.

If I'm a blaster, after merfolk bonuses, I'm thinking:
str 11
dex 18
con 16
int 12
wis 13
cha 18

Or as a save-or-suck-caster:
str 11
dex 16
con 17
int 12
wis 13
cha 19

I might take darkvision instead of low light vision if I go for save-or-suck, as -1 to hit won't be an issue.

I've looked at feats, and spell perfection seems like a must-have spell for any sorcerer.

Draconic and elemental bloodlines look very tempting thanks to the flying. Celestial, too, a bit, but I'm not sure about this one.

I don't think crossblooded, while extremely tempting, is an option, simply because I wouldn't be able to start with the fins to feet spell... And the 2 lvls behind thing is really bad.

Other than this I'm pretty much uncertain about everything. So, uh, yeah, I wish I had more time, but I really don't, and studies have been killing me this week, so I'll gladly take extensive suggestions on what kind of merfolk sorcerer might be fun to play.

3 rogue talents, you say... But the remaining rogue talents seem kind of rubbish to me. What would I take instead if I were to not take minor and major magic?

Things have developed a bit, by the way: I am now lvl 9, and the DM has still not arranged my cohort to appear! >.<

Also, I have yet to use minor and major magic, and since the DM is allowing us to retrain feats and feat like class skills the next time we're in town I CAN exchange these two talents for something better, though perusing the rogue talents in the core rule book and the APG I don't really see anything better...

Also, this ioun stone costs 16 000 gp, and a lvl 1 wand costs 1500 gp. I am far from affording stuff like that. I want to afford my +1 bow first... We get too much random good stuff that we use, such as monk's robes, positive channeling phylactery, efficient quiver, boots of running and striding, adamantine dagger, immovable rod... So much stuff we don't really want to sell. Also, we've had two character deaths/ressurections so far, and that's not exactly cheap either (though that ancient black dragon (Freak luck and a sword with +5D6 dmg vs dragons let us kill it) hoard (monk robes, cleric phylactery and 6k gp worth of liquid treasure) helps a bit. I reckon we've got about 4k gp each in liquid assets after selling everything except the things we need, and this is basically the first big GP injection we're getting, so we do have some issues...

unseen servant is good utility, particularly for a rogue (it can set off traps, grab stuff, carry a bedsheet with some holes in it and pretend to be a ghost for bluffs/intimidation, untie you after your scemes get fubared, tie off the rope you intend to climb up, untie the rope after you climb down, keep you well maintained in a social situation, steal enemy arrows and bring them to you, create distractions by dropping bricks ect from a height... its flexability more than makes up for its lack of direct combat applications. also, it lasts for 1 hour/lvl, so at 8th level you're able to keep it up for almost your entire adventuring day per casting.)

You make good selling points for a spell I'd normally not even look at twice, but upon investigating further I notice a few nasty drawbacks:

1. The range is close (25' +5' every 2 lvls) and the servant ceases to exists if it is outside range.

2. It has a base movespeed of 15'.

Attempting to keep it "alive" for the full duration would slow us down greatly, unless we put it on the halfling's riding dog, and even then I think the range leaves much to be hoped for concerning both its usefulness and it's winking out of existence. That aside, I really like this. :) I am thoroughly amused by the thought of the opportunities this option could provide. I commend you for coming up with such an unusual suggestion. It's really something, so on the list it goes. :) :) :)

Normally I'd say vanish, but if you've already got the flanking angle covered, gravity bow is probably better unless your cohort can't manage to flank them for some reason. I would pick true strike over shocking grasp, as sneak attack damage keeps going up while shocking grasp caps out at 5d6. Also, it sounds like you ought to be avoiding melee.

I can't flank with my bow, in fact, I try to stay out of melee as much as possible, but the Shatter Defenses/Dazzling Display combo which kicks in on lvl 9 SHOULD provide ample opportunities to do ranged SA. Thanks for pointing out that True Strike does what I wanted Shocking Grasp to do, only better... :P I guess Shocking Grasp still got the very situational "what if I'm unarmed" thing going for it, though...

I would choose major magic. Get the ioun stone to store a level 1 spell, UMD and wands.

I'm getting it for Dispelling Strike, and there are a few other basic things I feel I have to spend my gold on first when I get some gold, such as +1 enchants for bow and armor.

Of the four ideas listed....

Gravity Bow basically increases your damage output by 2.5. It does last ninety rounds, though. This would be pretty handy, and I don't think it'd ever stop being handy.
I also think Vanish would stay useful--it means an easy Sneak Attack, and also for easier stealth. In addition, you can cast it on others. I think that these two are the least likely to become obsolete.

Good point about being able to cast Vanish on teammates! :) Also, if you have any spell advice outside of the four I listed I'll gladly take them. :)

I'm kind of surprised to see Gravity Bow come out so well. I guess it's True Strike, Vanish or Gravity Bow so far, then, and I think I'm leaning towards Gravity Bow as I'm really after getting a good offensive use out of my major magic, I think... On the other hand - how offensive can I be if I'm dead? :D
My worry about vanish is that I won't need it to set up ranged sneak attacks considering my Shatter Defenses build, and perhaps the sorcerer getting Greater Invisibility at some point if I'm lucky and it is even needed?
I really appreciate your thoughts on this, guys. Keep em coming if you got em, please. :)

I always wanted to try an archery rogue, despite its challenges and shortcomings, so now I have a rogue lvl 8 with the current feats:
Improved Initiative
Point Blank Shot (Rogue Talent)
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus: Longbow (Rogue talent)
Dazzling Display
Leadership

I'm taking Shatter Defenses when I hit lvl 9.

My Cohort is a "tanky" half-orc fighter with +20 to intimidate and Dazzling Display.

Our group consists of a Cleric on healing/buffing duty, a sorcerer on buffing/nuking duty and a monk who receives said buffs and makes sure as many opponents as possible are lying flat on their backs.

The DM has said that he wishes to have us encounter every single monster in the bestiary, and what we do/what kind of encounters we have in our sessions can vary greatly, so sometimes we have up to half a dozen combat encounters during a session, while other times we can have only one or two, with the rest of the session being diplomacy/investigation/stealth.

As you probably can tell, I'm REALLY looking forward to my next level, and we're not really an optimized group. ("Where the hell is your precise shot?!?" I know I know...) Nevertheless, I am completely unable to decide what spell to take for my major magic talent...

So far I am looking at:

Vanish - Great for getting in ranged sneak attacks, and getting out of icky situations, AND for non-combat reasons... Though the 5 round duration and the fact that I have my cohort to ensure I get sneak attacks does make this spell less attractive.

Shield - +4 AC for x minutes twice a day... This is just awesome. I know I'll get a use for it most days as we do a lot of fighting, and I tend to end up on negative HP every now and then because of my low (19) AC. However, I will invest more in defensive items later, as soon as we catch up to the treasure tables (assuming we will) so I fear that the spell will become obsolete later.

Gravity Bow - Now this one is REALLY tempting as I'm after all going for a glass cannon/skill rogue... 2D6 for all of my arrows fired during the spell's duration? I just know I will use both charges of this every day... I just don't know if it's really worth it. Maybe I'm blinded by the fancy DPS-ness of it?

Shocking Grasp - What's attractive about this one is, of course, the ability to bypass natural armor of tough monsters. I have Acid Splash from before in my minor magic talent, though, so, I don't know. I haven't removed this from my list yet, though.

Any tips about other spells or advice to help me decide is really appreciated! :)

This is fixed with one sentence in the headband description.

"This item gives no bonus skill points for increasing your intelligence."

Then it explains it gives skill ranks. Not the same thing and while technically splitting hairs, is the only way people like the OP won't abuse the thing.

Really its not necessary as its easy to see the design intent in the rules, and reading RAW is stupid.

Its really things like that that allow Iron Heart Surge to end the effects of gravity, drowning, breathing, anti-magic fields, and anything else you could conceive of that is an ongoing condition lasting longer than a single round.

I actually know the OP personally. He's tutoring new DMs and would never abuse loopholes or poorly worded rules, he merely use them pedagogically to give the new DMs more experience, security and understanding of game balance, so you shouldn't be so judgmental. He does, however, have a love for details and discussion.

I think you underestimate the confusion such details can throw unexperienced people into and the effects it has on their experience of the game. It's just tiresome and deducts from the overall gaming experience because you feel you're playing an unfinished or poorly tought through game.
Sure, for dedicated, seasoned players/DMs what you say might hold true in most cases, but far from everybody who picks up this game has that kind of dedication or experience.

Dzyu wrote:

Specifically, where does it say that you get languages for increased int? It's only at lvl 1 you get them, right? At least that's what p.17 indicates.

It doesn't say specifically that these are those skill points. You have to guess. If you're a rules lawyer playing a wizard crafting a headband and you get both the associated skills AND skill points for high int you haven't done it wrong according to the diffuse RAW. You've stayed within the framework of the rules.

Page 17 does not say "You only gain these at character creation", so without some text to explicitly limit it to 1st level you can interpret this both ways: You either get them with increased INT or you only get them at character creation. It depends on your GM and how he interprets the RAW.

No, it doesn't say "first level". It says: "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game."

Specific beats General rules. The specific rules in the Headband beat the general rule on page 555. While I agree your interpretation (while clearly against RAI and the least probable interpretation) could be considered RAW, it is the kind of RAW where you have people going with the interpretation that is not the simplest interpretation. You have to work to theorize you get both sets of skill ranks.

This is where we disagree. Playing my wizard I actually added the skill points for my int when I next lvled up without even thinking about the fact that I already had gotten the hard coded skills from my recently crafted headband +4. And I even had a headband +2 before this which I also have been adding skill points from. It's really intuitive and easily understandable, but I thought it a bit odd the second time and came here in search of answers. Then I was made aware of p.555 which complicated things(read: messed up) things further.

Dzyu wrote:

I'm mostly satisfied with my answer from JJ (James Jacobs) and other answers I've gotten, but this whole arguing for argument's sake was actually started by James Risner who didn't agree with me that the RAW were unclear.

I said no such thing. I said that you can't prove your position (that you get the skills twice) from the rules, because your position (your interpretation) isn't the only valid interpretation of the rules. I offered up another valid interpretation (that you only get the skills once and you get the ones the item has hardcoded.) My whole point was this is an "Ask your DM" problem because there is no unambiguous RAW.

At least we agree the RAW is ambiguous at best. :)

I'm mostly satisfied with my answer from JJ (James Jacobs) and other answers I've gotten, but this whole arguing for argument's sake was actually started by James Risner who didn't agree with me that the RAW were unclear. Other than trying to explain WHY I read the RAW so horrendously different from the RAI I'm just trying to comb out all the little errors so that if and when Jason finally reads this he's got alot of input about what to put in his faq/errata thing...

I think it's important to point out all the ways that p.17 and p.555 isn't consistent and that it does not adress different items and sources of int gain well enough, like Watcher said early on. It's not only that the headband isn't clear enough. This is bigger than the headband, in fact anything that gives you int, even the earned bonuses on lvl 4, 8, 12 etc is touched by this potential confusion and therefore I ask you guys if you agree or not and try to discuss it with you to figure out the "nooks and crannies" of this for the sake of the community. Repeating that "it's just the way it works" is really counterproductive because I know how at least the core of it is intended after JJ's first reply. However, I still feel that he didn't address or even picked up on all the details of it, but now that this thread has grown to such a monster and I've lost my train of thought, I'm not sure I cba trying to cath up again. I'm sorry for not being clear enough about this, though mostly I've only answered trying to explain what I read. Oh, and thanks for trying to help. I have actually learned a great deal from this thread even though I haven't found the focus to participate in all of the directions it was taking at the same time, or reply properly to all. I've got problems keeping my "wall of text"-factor down as it is. :P
Any ignoring has not been intentional. :o

By the way, thanks for the concern, but this time around I'm actually playing myself! :D The poor player from my group who is DMing now has caused me pain as a player with überstupuid characters before, so now it's my turn! XD Except that I'm more of the intelligent-manipulating-cunning-wizard-type rather than the stupid-drunk-dwarf-dual-wielding-two-spiked-shields-type... :P
And no, I have no intention of ruining the game by rules lawyering and breaking the game balance, but he deserves a few headaches... :D Being primarily a DM for about 15 years sort of gives you a fair understanding of what being überpowerful means.. Been there, done that. More often than not it's not much fun. :P

Anyhoo... I think maybe there are better alternatives to hard-coding(and I'm happy to share it and discuss it if there's interest for it), but then I guess I should've gotten more involved while this was still in beta... :)

By the way. I just discovered some minor detail on p.554:

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

It doesn't say anything about items.. Hehe... ;)

Page 17 doesn't say anything at all about increasing Intelligence. So I'm not sure what you are pointing out here.

As to 555, under Permanent Bonus's it says :

Page 555, Pathfinder wrote:

Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Note the bolded part, Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. That's the part you are looking for. All statistics related to Int are : Skill points gained at each level, Languages learned at 1st level, attribute bonus's to INT skills, and spells per day for certain casters.

I don't think anyone would argue that an attribute gained through leveling is not permanent. So, that means that if your INT goes from 17 to 18 at 8th level, you gain one language, 8 skill points (one for each level), all your Int based skills go up by one, and you recheck your spells per day based on the new attribute score.

What I'm pointing out is the two points, one about language and one about skill points, on p.17, where it says what your intelligence score affects:

• The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.

• The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.

To me this means that every time I level up I check my intelligence score (magic bonuses that last for more than 24 h included), and add skill points equal to 2 + 8 for my int score of 26 on my wizard.

Now, according to the rules on p.555 you also get skill points for every level you have, not only when you level up. Add to that the skill ranks that comes with the headband, which in NO WAY states that these skill ranks are a hard coded version of what you get with a high int. The headband just says you get them unconditionally.

A creative rules lawyer could actually find support in the rules for gaining MORE than double skill ranks per level.
If a wizard is lvl 8 and just crafted himself a headband of vast intellect +4 he would, according to my interpretation the rules we've been talking about, after 24 hrs get:
• +16 skill points to spend as he wish
• 2 hard coded skills with 8 ranks, and he chose these skills himself since he crafted it himself
• 10 skill points when he reaches lvl 9 because he's got an int of 26 with the headband bonus.

And then there's the contradictions between p.17 and p.555 which makes me think you won't get a bonus language for high int, and maybe even no retroactive skill points.

The following sentence from p.555 tells me the rules on p.17 apply to a high int score gained through magic items:

Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.

And the next one is a big contradiction to the rules on p.17 concerning intelligence:

Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.

Actually this doesn't SAY that you get skill points for earlier levels, cause that would contradict the rule about only getting skill points when you reach a new level. Same thing about languages. You only get them at lvl 1 according to p.17. So if the rules on p.555 gets precedence, then you get double, nay triple skill gain from a headband of vast intellect, and one bonus language per +2 bonus.

The basis of YOUR interpretation of the rules, mdt, demands you disregard the rules on p.17 entirely. What's your basis for that? Because it seems right? someone told you? Although correct, it's not good enough. I need it printed, or in an errata. Like a true lawyer.

I haven't read the book from cover to cover yet, so PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong. Show me something quoted from the pathfinder book that eliminates this possiblity of abuse/misinterpretation entirely.

Imho, rules have to be water tight on things like this so they can't be misinterpreted.

I realize of course Chris' and Zurai's point and agree that the RAI is great to this end, although I don't think it was a nightmare... You just make short lists or use a calculator and add for each level individually. Takes less than a minute figuring out... Anyhoo... Back on track: somewhere along the line someone forgot to change the rules on p.17 and go over this thing to make sure it was water tight and easily understandable.

Edited: I discovered and corrected some big errors in my post. Proofreading ftw. -.-

One of the design goals of Pathfinder is to give designers and GMs an easier time statting up higher-level NPCs, by eliminating the differences between initial attributes and attribute boosts.

If your PC's Intelligence rises from, say, 13 to 14, he gets skill points, for each level as if he'd begun with an INT of 14. (The same way a rise in CON generates hit points per each level.) And he immediately learns a language.

I realize that, but where do you get this information? P.17 doesn't agree with you and p.555 isn't specific enough. The RAW, or maybe even RAI of these two pages relevant to int seem to actually contradict each other. It's just confusing if you read this without actually being a part of the all-knowing community.

See what I'm getting at?

It's easy to see why in 3.5 the Intelligence boosting items didn't mess with your skill points, ain't it? :-)

The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then... because then what's keeping you from putting those ranks in to, say, Appraise, but then when you get to a locked door you can just take the item off and then put it back on your head and say, "Now those skill ranks are adding to my Disable Device!" Makes the item WAY too versatile.

So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same. It removes the whole "What do I want to be good at today?" problem. And that DOES mean that sometimes you'll find an INT boosting item that overlaps with skill ranks you already have, but that's fine with me since you're still enjoying all the other benefits of the increased INT score just like you did in 3.5 (which, remember, doesn't grant ANY skill ranks for INT boosters).

You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.

I'll make sure Jason knows that this'll be something we should add to the FAQ. It's not really errata, since it's not really a correction. It's just something that needs more explanation.

EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.

Thanks for the clarification and for taking note of this.

Putting earned points into int at lvl 4 and 8, and or tomes, doesn't give you bonus languages does it, so why should the headband? Specifically, where does it say that you get languages for increased int? It's only at lvl 1 you get them, right? At least that's what p.17 indicates.

I would like to suggest adding a clarification to the headband of vast intellect description, maybe something along the lines of:
"The skills granted by a headband of vast intelligence replace any skill points you would otherwise get from an increased intelligence score." That way, this specific statement beats the general rule on p.555 and there can be no confusion about it.

Regarding Ioun stones, they should probably have a clarification about the Scarlet and blue stone working just as the headband of vast intellect, cause as is now it can be abused. Or maybe that's fine - it being versatile since it's an ioun stone, after all?

Tomes of intellect is fine as is, imo. The int gain isn't removable, so there's no room for abuse, and you get skill points as you should.
Same with int gained on lvl 4, 8, 12 etc.

Regarding why one would pick Ioun Stones over headband... That's a good point! I used to think that you could have more than 1 Ioun Stone swirling around your head and get mass bonuses, balanced out by the fact that they could potentially and quite literally be stolen right from under your nose, but I don't actually see the possiblity of having several at once mentioned anywhere, so I guess not. There's even a picture of a guy with about 6 Ioun Stones swirling around his head in the D&D 3.5 DMG...

Dzyu wrote:

So... where does it say you DON'T get skill points from a headband?

It gives you skill ranks, specifically the ones it was built to provide.

Since it gives you ranks, you don't get double ranks (because p555 rule is already active in the form of the ranks it gives you.)

It doesn't say specifically that these are those skill points. You have to guess. If you're a rules lawyer playing a wizard crafting a headband and you get both the associated skills AND skill points for high int you haven't done it wrong according to the diffuse RAW. You've stayed within the framework of the rules.

Well it does make a headband of int that you find with crappy knowledge skills you don't need still useful for those extra skill points, although if it is not intended, and that may well be likely since any custom crafted headband will benefit the owner a bit too much, then paizo should put it in an errata, correct it on their website and so forth.

Dzyu wrote:

I'm thinking it SHOULD be aswell, but it's not what the rules say.

You and I disagree on what it "says" then as to me it clearly says what you think it "should" say.

So, how do you read it? What makes you read that the headband does not give you skill points? It doesn't say anywhere that it shouldn't!

Let me just go over the relevant text with you all:

"The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6."

This means you get skill points.

"Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours
the headband is worn."

This means you have to wait 24 hrs before you get skillpoints.

"A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants."

Whaat? More skills? imba! :D

"After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer’s total Hit Dice."

Fair enough. Prevents abuse.

"These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses."

Okay, fair enough. Stacking WOULD be crazy.

"These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is
listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly
determined Knowledge skills."

Huh. So more often than not, these skills are worthless knowledge skills you probably don't want, or already have. Sure glad I get some skill points from the high int it grants anyways then. :)

So... where does it say you DON'T get skill points from a headband?

As for the OP, you get the skills in the Headband as it was made. Those are the bonus skill ranks from higher INT. You don't get double the number of skill ranks the increase would provide if you started with the higher INT.

That's what I'm thinking it SHOULD be aswell, but it's not what the rules say. To me, this isn't a loophole, it looks like it is meant to work this way. Maybe paizo screwed up with the wording, but then I'd like it errata'd or get an official comment on it before I take anyones interpretation for it in place of my own.

Another thing: It seems p.16/17 contradicts p.555 in terms of intelligence and skill points. P.16/17 indicates int does NOT grant you skill points for previous levels, only for levels you gain with your new int score. From this it follows that if you for some reason lose int and then lvl up with a lower int score, you get fewer skillpoints, but you still keep what you gained while your score was high. This makes sense because you WERE smart and LEARNED faster, what you learned doesn't go away just because you now learn slower. It also makes sense with the way I interpret the headband because then it is more powerful as it grants you the ability to get skillpoints for levels past, not only for future levels to come, hence making the headband useful even for a high-level non-wizard looking for some skill ranks. It's not a bookie nightmare, because you don't have to keep track of where you got your skillpoints. You only had to make sure to add the correct number of skill points each time you level. As you do with a simple HP roll. The part on p.555 just screws with the entire thing, making the int headband even more powerful as it seemingly grants double skillpoints for its bonus for all HD, not just for future HDs gained.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

This indicates that the int gained from a headband of vast intelligence +6 gives you 3 ability modifier points extra after 24 hrs and as such you gain 3 skillpoints more the next time you level up in addition to the 3 skills (with maxed ranks appropriate for your HD) that comes with the headband. These extra maxrank=hd skills seem like a bonus, an extra perk to the headband of vast intelligence, giving you, in fact, much more skillpoints than a character without a headband, but with as much int as you.

Can any of you point to some official clarification which states that this is not the case since it is not clear in the book?

Sorry for repeating myself, and thanks for quick replies. :)

A headband of Vast Intelligence grants you one skill per +2 bonus it has at the maximum number of ranks you can have, but do you in addition get extra skillpoints to spend per level because you effectively have a higher int after wearing it for 24 hrs?

I have not found anything in the rulebook book that indicates that it shouldn't grant both the associated skill AND the extra skillpoints because of higher int from the headband.

Bob Hopp: The wizard frequenlty buff the melee members with enlarge person, we're often 5 players, and the paladin has the leadership feat with 18 charisma, so this 10-man limit is reached frequently. Used in a cramped area, like a hallway or next to a cliff wall, we won't even need enlarge person. Do you consider it broken if used for this purpose?
Sure enough, the PCs get a great advantage if the enemy is stupid enough to press on with their ranged and melee attacks, and if they try to bull-rush in, try getting past an enlarged grapple-specced monk. He rarely fails a combat maneuver check... :P On the other hand, the PCs have put themselves in a nice spot for a fireball or other aoe spell. This shouldn't be anything a DM couldn't handle. :)

Thraxus: We've considered this fact, and it still can fit more than 10 people after you remove all squares on the edge because of low ceiling. And someone lying prone in this area obviously would gain the benefits again as they were completely inside. Furthermore, the roof is 20' up. It's a fricken 20' radius. :P You won't get much low ceiling because the wall on the edge is very steep. I think you COULD stand upright there without having your head poking out. Especially if you're not more than 5' tall.

Ignoring the 10-man limit seems like a well enough solution since it's obviously not making much sense, but I would still like to hear more opinions on this.

Hi,

We're having a problem adjudicating what to do about this spell(Tiny Hut) when used in a melee situation for concealment. The problem is that the spell says there's only room for 10 medium-sized creatures, although the actual size of it clearly indicates there's room for alot more, so what happens when more than 10 medium-sized creaturse enter?

I'm thinking maybe this sentence: "However, if you remove yourself from the hut, the spell ends." should read: "However, if you remove yourself from the hut, or more than 10 medium-sized creatures are inside it, the spell ends."

OR

This sentence: "As many as nine other Medium creatures can fit into the field with you; they can freely pass into and out of the hut without harming it." should have the additional information: "If the hut is full any other creatures trying to enter the sphere will be held out by a force field." or maybe even "If the hut is full and additional creatures try to enter, the hut will bend away from them and not let them inside." or something like that.

I think the force-field effect is too good for a 3rd lvl spell, obvisouly, but if it ends because too many people try to enter, I think it's too harsh. Imo the part with it bending away to not include anyone trying to enter when it's full seems the most balanced way to make it. What do you think?