Question, i was talking to my DM and mentioning some stuff said on this thread. "The AOMF is only a +5 and other enchants go to +10" he showed me where it said +5 is the biggest enchant a weapon can get. What am i missing.
Question, i was talking to my DM and mentioning some stuff said on this thread. "The AOMF is only a +5 and other enchants go to +10" he showed me where it said +5 is the biggest enchant a weapon can get. What am i missing.
Nothing, monks can only enhance unarmed strikes to +5 including properties.
Question, i was talking to my DM and mentioning some stuff said on this thread. "The AOMF is only a +5 and other enchants go to +10" he showed me where it said +5 is the biggest enchant a weapon can get. What am i missing.
From the PRD:
"A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat....Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus."
An AoMF on the other hand, "An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5."
Honestly i think monk should be a class more like ninja, give it feats or class abilities we can pick at even levels and remove some of the clutter from the class.
No argument here, and that's what the Qinggong monk does. However, what's impressive is not what it has but what it doesn't have. For a great example of what the monk could be, look at the psychic warrior...
And yes, the AoMF is limited to a +5 total, not to +5 enhancement and upt to +10 total. So if you want a property like agile that means you are limited to +4 total enhancement, which in turn means you aren't getting past DR/alignment at any level (unless it's DR/lawful, which almost no creature has).
what if we focused all of the monks wisdom based abilities on con instead. what if i wanted to play an unwise monk, still learning the ways of the world. their abilities would be a representation of their physical conditioning instead. it's probably too radical to even seriously contemplate.
my main beef with "WIS to hit" is that it overloads the ability score (especially if you allow it to damage too!). It would suddenly be doing the job of ST, DX, WIS (itself), and CON.
ST? - to hit, (to damage!)
DX? - to AC
WIS? - Stunning Fist, ki
CON? - Wholeness of Body (healing), especially if this becomes 'fixed'
This is a fallacious post.
First, no Monk is going to dump Con; even if the stupid WoB was balanced. I don't know of any class that dumbs Con, so using Con as a discussion point is pointless.
Second, why is it ok for a fighter to use STR in place of everything, but not a Monk (str to hit, for damage, for ac)?
Or why is ok for a Wiz to use INT and nothing else, or a Cleric using Wisdom?
There are plenty of classes that only need one stat, why not include Monk (or at the very least reduce the MADness to 2 stats)?
You can go decent to weak STR if you get Guided Hand after you've buffed your Channeling with a feat or two, but as a rule: Cleric has enough firepower under their belt to do some damage and be well rounded, but not enough to be as utterly brutal as they were in D&D 3.5.
(First chance to upgrade it to a Greater Feat is going to be level 9, long after the Fighter made it his backup plan at level 6. And I hope you picked up Combat Expertise if you want to be able to pick up the Greater Feats from those trees. This takes up another of your rare, difficult to place feats. Vicious Stomp exists to plug that particular hole for a Trip Monk, but that's the only feat that exists to plug one of those holes. Needless to say, I sometimes think the Monk bonus Feat list is more of a hindrance than a help. It probably would have just been better to give a bonus feat you could qualify for at those levels rather than the strangeness it currently exists as.)
Conclusions: ...Argh.
what if we focused all of the monks wisdom based abilities on con instead. what if i wanted to play an unwise monk, still learning the ways of the world. their abilities would be a representation of their physical conditioning instead. it's probably too radical to even seriously contemplate.
And that would literally fix ALL the MAD problems, and could easily qualify as being the function of internal energy based on a greater understanding of your body's physical capabilities. It also represents traditional monk physical conditioning worldwide...hell, you just need to change the normal AC bonus to a Natural Armor bonus instead of an untyped bonus, and it all fits together nicely.
It just irks me that we have to go away from the image of the wise old monk who is wise to the world. -_- I desperately want the traditional image of the wise old monk to WORK, but it's current features kind of make it a MADdening process.
...I've been waiting to throw that pun in this entire thread.
100% defensive is one possible build from the inspiration. A friend was reading about a master who could be surrounded by men with guns and still knock them all out without being shot. In effect, he only needed to dodge one bullet as he ran up on that shooter. He was faster and had more attacks. This man was well documented.
Pacifistic monks and healers make great NPCs. Not so great PCs.
It just irks me that we have to go away from the image of the wise old monk who is wise to the world. -_- I desperately want the traditional image of the wise old monk to WORK, but it's current features kind of make it a MADdening process.
one thing i've considered about about monks is, that their wisdom isn't just inherent, it's Taught. Now I thinking of doing the con change, and adding an ability at second level that adds their monk level to wisdom based checks. this will represent them being taught wisdom.
honestly, I think the easiest way to reduce the multi attribute deficiency is to alter stunning fist and ki pool progression so that you don't need to buff wisdom into the stratosphere to make it work.
1) alter stunning fist DC to 10+character level or class level.
2) change ki pool to 5+1/2 monk level or something.
3) Add weapon training instead of stepping up unarmed strike damage.
Now you can build a monk like a ranger
I ran into problems with the Efreeti Style line of feats. Putting aside the viability of playing the monk as a blaster, the feat requirements are [b]ridiculous.[b] Dragon Style feats are on equal (and more practical) level and has requirements that a monk will definitely have anyway: good strength and ranks in acrobatics. Efreeti Style feats have a feat tax and require 15 Con and 17 Wis, and you have to be higher level to take them all.
honestly, I think the easiest way to reduce the multi attribute deficiency is to alter stunning fist and ki pool progression so that you don't need to buff wisdom into the stratosphere to make it work.
1) alter stunning fist DC to 10+character level or class level.
2) change ki pool to 5+1/2 monk level or something.
3) Add weapon training instead of stepping up unarmed strike damage.
Now you can build a monk like a ranger
1. like that
2. or change ki pool to full monk level (minimum 3)3. I would like an effective enhancement bonus instead, like the magus enhancement pool.
honestly, I think the easiest way to reduce the multi attribute deficiency is to alter stunning fist and ki pool progression so that you don't need to buff wisdom into the stratosphere to make it work.
1) alter stunning fist DC to 10+character level or class level.
2) change ki pool to 5+1/2 monk level or something.
3) Add weapon training instead of stepping up unarmed strike damage.
Now you can build a monk like a ranger
1. like that
2. or change ki pool to full monk level (minimum 3)
3. I would like an effective enhancement bonus instead, like the magus enhancement pool.
Yeah, 1 point per class level seems fine.
10+CL is way too fast a save progression. That'll completely obliterate weak saves. There's a reason I suggested the ability to go after the will save.
A DC of 30 at level 20 is a little less than what you would see from a zen archer. With ability focus you would get to zen archer stun levels. If a better stunning fist is already in the game, how is the progression I offer that is worse overpowered?
All DCs scale with at most 1/2+level/2+stat and for everything but spells it's level/2+stat10+CL is way too fast a save progression. That'll completely obliterate weak saves. There's a reason I suggested the ability to go after the will save.A DC of 30 at level 20 is a little less than what you would see from a zen archer. With ability focus you would get to zen archer stun levels. If a better stunning fist is already in the game, how is the progression I offer that is worse overpowered?
All save DC's are base 10+1/2 level+ability modifier. If a monk can be wisdom prime(guided weapon) then a save dc of 30 at level 20 is a bit on the low side. 34 wisdom is normal in this scenario, meaning a save DC of 32.
A save DC of 30 is not broken.
A stat independent save of 10+level is by definition out of balance with all other saves.
But it's the save DC, not the character's save. With a character's save, they add a D20. That should be an average between 10 and 11.
You could use a straight add level for the stunning fist, or just add the unmodified to hit roll.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ReconstrutorFleet
I used your Make Unarmed Strike Unique and Interesting last night and it wasn't game breaking. I ended up using brace and reach. It turned out pretty good. Very dynamic battle. I also used the Maneuver Specialist option with overrun and it worked out very well. I'm going to integrate these options into the monk class in my campaign.
@Atarlost
I didn't get to use your wisdom to lower DR option yet, but I did get to use it to ignore the hardness of a wall, punching one of the PC's, cinematic style after they closed a door to escape a pursuer. It was great and it didn't alter the flow of the game.
Keep up the great work. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with next.
Interesting! What levels did you end up saying they could choose Weapon Qualities at?
what if we focused all of the monks wisdom based abilities on con instead. what if i wanted to play an unwise monk, still learning the ways of the world. their abilities would be a representation of their physical conditioning instead. it's probably too radical to even seriously contemplate.
Because that would totally invalidate every existing monk build? Whatever change we make must still permit existing builds to work. Remember the Devs are looking at tweaks, not total re-writes.
The issue with Monk as it stands, is that unlike Wizard or Cleric, their powers are geared entirely toward defense in a game where attacking has a priority over defense...and their defense focus is to the point that they have no offense. Regardless of your statline, a monk is still going to have trouble combining their disparate non-synergizing abilities to make a deadly combatant.
The only issue with this is the that the monk is NOT the best at defence. Fighters get better AC (though monks can get close) and paladins get better saves & resistances vs other stuff. Give the monk Uncanny Dodge and it might be getting there, but it's not the best by a long way.
The problem is that by making if a feat you're not fixing anything. You're taking away a feat to stop sucking with stunning fist. You cannot fix an underpowered class with zero sum ability swapsI like the idea, as nerve strikes are well understood in martial arts. I'd say make it available as a feat or optional ability.
That depends on what you want to make of the monk. If you have a strong monk dishing out masses of damage, you don't need stunning fist. If you want a monk that uses wisdom and speed, then it's more important to focus on stunning fist. What the monk often lacks as much as core abilities are good options. Some ideas here I think should be core, but those that aren't essential are great options to add as feats.
Your fixing a lack of good applicable options, and if you make Wisdom the primary stat (currently it seems to be secondary to either dex or strength) then it certainly won't suck so much. Besides, against some foes you will WANT a Fort save stunning fist.
honestly, I think the easiest way to reduce the multi attribute deficiency is to alter stunning fist and ki pool progression so that you don't need to buff wisdom into the stratosphere to make it work.
Again, not a bad idea to eliminate Wis completely - except again it invalidates a lot of existing builds and very much changes the nature of the monk. Frankly it's nice having a combat class dependant on a mental stat rather than physical ones, the only problem the monk has is that it is dependent on all the physical stats AS WELL.
The AoMF change actually has more of an buff on non-monks (Natural weapon machines) than Monks, for whom it is is still overprice. Making a slotless item that costs the same as an equivlent magic weapon and only applies to a single natural attack/unarmed strike isn't hard.
Every change made for the monk seems to end up benefiting other classes more. Even items 'intended' for monks.
Here is what i cam up with for the enhancement.
An Monks unarmed strike improves as the character gains higher levels. At 3rd level and every odd level thereafter, the unarmed strike gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus that the Monks may spend on an actual enhancement bonus or on weapon special abilities. An Monks level determines her maximum enhancement bonus. The Monks may (and must, when her total enhancement is higher than her maximum bonus) apply any special ability from the table on page 32 of the Psionics Unleashed book instead of an enhancement bonus, as long as the Monks meets the level requirements. A Monk can choose any combination of weapon special abilities and/or enhancement bonus that does not exceed the total allowed by the Monk level, but the Monk must assign at least a +1 enhancement bonus before assigning any special abilities. You can add speed to the list of abilities at a cost of +3 and only gives 1 additional attack, this stacks with the Monk extra attack for spending Ki.
I'm not sure I'd go this far as the Devs have stated they do not want to 'invalidate' the AoMF, but I certainly lean this way. Perhaps just have ki-strike provide the basic enhancement, and the AoMF provide properties.
@ReconstructorFleet
I let my player choose one at 3rd and another at 5th, since the party gained a level afte our last adventure, I let him choose it retroactively. It worked out really well. He worked out the reach part as dramatic kicks and flying knees.
How is unarmed monk overshadowed, i read that all over but dont quite get how
Power Attack gives +3 damage for every -1 to-hit if you're two-handing a temple sword (or quaterstaff), but it only gives +2 damage for every -1 to-hit if you're using an unarmed strike. Throw in that enchanting the sword (or just one end of the staff) costs half as much as even the revised AoMF and leaves the neck slot open, and the monk who uses a weapon he can two-hand is definitely better than the one who fights open-handed.
@See
That's very true, a monk who uses a weapon is better at dealing damage than a monk who fights unarmed, but the monk who fights unarmed has way more cinematic feel. Anyway thanks for putting it into perspective, my players are going to hate me now. Temple sword wielding orc monks are coming their way.
A fighter intent on a sword and board build doesn't WANT greatsword proficiency. Doesn't mean the two handed fighter should have to spend a feat on it.Your fixing a lack of good applicable options, and if you make Wisdom the primary stat (currently it seems to be secondary to either dex or strength) then it certainly won't suck so much. Besides, against some foes you will WANT a Fort save stunning fist.The problem is that by making if a feat you're not fixing anything. You're taking away a feat to stop sucking with stunning fist. You cannot fix an underpowered class with zero sum ability swapsI like the idea, as nerve strikes are well understood in martial arts. I'd say make it available as a feat or optional ability.
That depends on what you want to make of the monk. If you have a strong monk dishing out masses of damage, you don't need stunning fist. If you want a monk that uses wisdom and speed, then it's more important to focus on stunning fist. What the monk often lacks as much as core abilities are good options. Some ideas here I think should be core, but those that aren't essential are great options to add as feats.
That's a bit of a strawman, really. I mean, the weapon the fighter really WANTS as a one handed weapon is a falcata, as it's got the best mix of threat range and damage mutliplier, and it's a feat to get one because frankly, it's very effective.
I do take your point that zero sum abilities will not likely lead to an improvement - however, let me explain that I'm not treating this in isolation. Of the changes discussed, the ones I would most like to see are:
1) Wisdom to hit with unarmed strike & mink weapons. This reduces MAD without invalidating existing monk builds that rely on strength.
2) A better means of bypassing DR, either a ki-based ability or a flat -1 DR/monk level on all forms of DR. This gives the monk a 'special thing' they can do in combat that is unavailable to other classes.
3) Innate enhancement of unarmed ki-strike, starting at +1 and topping out at +5. This gives the monk a weapon equal to those used by other combat classes without invalidating the Amulet of Mighty Fists.
These three would be my ideal changes, and I think they are sufficient to make the monk up to a par with other combat classes. After that, stunning fist working against Will as an option isn't such a big deal, it's something I'd like to see as a feat, though, for monks that want to specialise in using stunning fist - I think it's a really neat idea. I don't see that option as part of a true 'fix' for the monks biggest issues: Hitting accuracy, bypassing DR, and gaining enhancement, though.
Agreed, I would like to see that modification as a style feat, too.
Golem Style?
Given Dragon Style gives you 1.5* strength as is, it would kind of blow it out of the water. The other problem is all it does is ramp up damage output of strength-based monks while doing nothing for every other build, and doesn't address the core monk's issues of hitting, enhancement and DR.
The obsession a lot of people have with fixing the monk is about damage output. I don't see it as that. We have damage dealers: barbarians and fighters, we don't need to contest with them about dishing damage. I prefer the idea of the monk as the guy that can hurt anything and do cool stuff rather than just be another damage-whore.
All Monk REALLY needs, is the accuracy boost from Weapon Training, offset by reduced damage dice to make it balance out for damage...and then an increased effective Size Category so they can use Combat Maneuvers effectively at higher levels against larger creatures.
Assuming you don't want to rebuild it from scratch. It could use rebuilding from scratch. But the above would be an amazing bandaid.
I agree it would require rebuilding from scratch to really fix it. I also agree with the idea of changing the damage and applying weapon training - but I think that's a step too far for the devs, and it still doesn't fix MADness which is still a serious issue.
Anything that makes a monk a better combatant than a fighter who uses only his bare knuckles and wears no armor.
Note that other powers can be added to beads that go on the cord of your Amulet of Mighty Fists. This is an Augment item.
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First, I didn't read the whole thread.
Second, tried this homebrew.
"Power of the Wise - Starting at 5th level, Monks may use their Wisdom in place of their strength for the purposes of qualifying for feats, making attacks, dealing damage and cmb/cmd, but NOT for using skills or making strength checks. By spending a ki point, the monk may ADD his wisdom modifier to his strength modifier instead of replacing it. A monk with a negative strength modifier always applies it to his wisdom modifier when his wisdom is used in this way."
Didn't seem to bad. Still had to have a high dex and con as well, but not having to drop points in str was pretty nice. Wasn't exactly out damaging the fighter, but definitely was able to handle quite a few encounters.
I'm in agreement about the monk needing to be treated as 1 size larger for the maneuvers.
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as you have more or less dominated the framing around the discussion of monk changes, though i am addressing neither the DR-bypass nor the Enhancement issue (both of which ought to be folded into a Ki Pool proposal), i am curious what you think about my proposals for Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Maneuver Training, and Wholeness of Body.
A new monk class revision that goes farther than the staff will ever go.
Biggest changes? There are several: full BAB, 6+Int Skill points, and a lot of the stuff that has been bandied about in this thread.
Two things in particular:
Body and Soul (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk gains a +1 inherent bonus to his lowest ability score. If the monk has two or more ability scores that are equally low, he may apply this bonus to the ability score of his choice.
At every level gained as a monk thereafter, the monk may assign another +1 inherent bonus to his lowest ability score (or his choice of an ability score of two or more are equally low) or instead increase any already assigned inherent bonus by 1. The monk may not exceed a +5 inherent bonus with any of his ability scores; he must always assign this inherent bonus to his lowest ability score, except if that ability score has already received +5 in inherent bonuses or if two or more ability scores qualify as the lowest.
Inherent bonuses received through the use of spells or magic items such as wish or various manuals or tomes are not so limited to the lowest ability score of a monk, but the character must still abide by a maximum limit of +5 inherent bonuses on any one ability score.
AND
Size Matters Not (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a monk is treated as one size category larger than his natural size whenever he performs a combat maneuver—but only when he attempts to perform a combat maneuver on a creature larger than himself.
At 8th level, a monk is treated as two size categories larger when he performs a combat maneuver, but only against creatures at least two size categories larger than himself.
At 14th level, a monk is treated as three size categories larger when he performs a combat maneuver, but only against creatures at least three size categories larger than himself.
Plus lots of subtle changes in how things work (still mind, slow fall are both now good abiliies, along with wholeness of body). Check it out and add your comments!
MA
I'm kind of surprised that no one brought up the issue that I see as being the biggest drawback to the monk, Flurry of blows as a full round action only.
I do think the new changes help; I would have preferred a total rewrite but understand the devs have to work within their framework. I do think that they failed to address one of the monk's core problems though the incompatibility of the monk's movement bonuses and unarmored tumbling with Flurry of Blows. I would like to see something like the following:
Flurry of blows:
Full attack option: Same as now
Standard attack option: When using an unarmed strike or monk weapon a monk may make an additional attack at a -5 penalty on the attack roll as a standard action starting at level 8. At level 15 the monk may make a third attack at a -10 penalty.
I think this helps mesh all the monk's abilities together and gives him a defined role as a skimisher/mage killer. The monk doesn't catch up with the fighter on accuracy and damage is still low but the extra hits help mitigate that and fits the flavor of the class. Since change is a add-on to an existing ability it just feels like a tweak and is easy enough to add as errata.
I decided to run some quick and dirty numbers to see how my idea would compare. These numbers are ignoring power attack and feats just to make it easier:
Standard Attack- Monk vs Fighter
Lvl 8:
Avg AC of CR 8 monster= 21
2h greatsword Fighter:
17 attack bonus= +8 BAB +6 str +2 weapon +1 weapon training
19 Damage = 7 (weapon)+9 (str)+2 (enhancement)+1 Weapon training
.8*19= 15 damage
Monk with 2h temple sword:
12 attack bonus= +6 BAB +4 str +2 weapon
7 attack bonus= +1 BAB +4 str +2 weapon
12.5 Damage = 4.5 weapon +6 Str +2 enhancement
.55*12.5= 6.87
.3*12.5= 3.75
total=10.5 With extra KI attack=18
Level 15:
Avg AC of CR 15 monster= 30
2h greatsword Fighter:
30 attack bonus= +15 BAB +7 str +5 weapon +3 weapon training
26 Damage = 7 (weapon)+11 (str)+5 (enhancement)+3 Weapon training
.95*26= 25 damage
Monk with 2h temple sword:
22 attack bonus= +11 BAB +6 str +5 weapon
17 attack bonus= +6 BAB +6 str +5 weapon
12 attack bonus= +1 BAB +6 str +5 weapon
18.5 Damage = 4.5 weapon +9 Str +5 enhancement
.6*18.5= 11.1
.35*18.5=6.4
.1*18.5= 1.8
Total= 19 damage with KI= 30 damage
Summary: Even with the extra attacks the monk falls behind the greatsword fighter without burning KI but he is much closer. (damn, standard attacks really suck for the current monk!)With KI he can edge slightly ahead but I suspect power attack would change that. His increased defenses and mobility would still make him an attractive alternative to a fighter if you want to play a more mobile fighter. Tactically the ability to move and still do decent damage means that you would often be able to attack classes that normally hide in the back (mages/archers)that are lightly armored so in practice the monk should contribute well.
Disclaimer: Numbers were mostly made up and reality may differ. :)
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New monk ability. Shadow fist: The monk's primary weaponless attack hits as any attack currently in use in combat. They can mimic anything from the smite of a holy sword to the sting of a Wyvern's tail. They only have to see the attack attempted, then they can mimic it for the remainder of combat. The monk's player rolls to hit and then uses all the bonuses and special abilities of the original attack, not their own. Limitations, such as a surprise attack requiring re hiding, do apply. If the monk has a Ki-pool, this requires 2.
Kudalini(Mistranslated from Hindi) Meditation: This feat requires 1 minute of uninterrupted chanting. Silent spell can be applied requiring an additional minute.
Benefit: The Ki pool is refilled or all non-lethal damage is removed.
Normal: Without this it requires a full 8 hour sleep.
You could try the changes I am testing in this thread, so far they have not proven broken.
I love this ability but I doubt my dm will allow it.New monk ability. Shadow fist: The monk's primary weaponless attack hits as any attack currently in use in combat. They can mimic anything from the smite of a holy sword to the sting of a Wyvern's tail. They only have to see the attack attempted, then they can mimic it for the remainder of combat. The monk's player rolls to hit and then uses all the bonuses and special abilities of the original attack, not their own. Limitations, such as a surprise attack requiring re hiding, do apply. If the monk has a Ki-pool, this requires 2.
Kudalini(Mistranslated from Hindi) Meditation: This feat requires 1 minute of uninterrupted chanting. Silent spell can be applied requiring an additional minute.
Benefit: The Ki pool is refilled or all non-lethal damage is removed.
Normal: Without this it requires a full 8 hour sleep.
He will if he loves Nauruto. It's a family tradition, for controlling the blood of a doppleganger ancestor. As a GM I would make the player select only one special technique.