I hear often "don't let the name of the class define what your character is".
I hear this often in reference to how a Ranger, Bard, or Alchemist makes a better rogue than a rogue.
One of my players is trying to use this logic on a Cleric, and I am finding myself unable to help him.
What can describe a Cleric beyond priest, sacred servant, holy warrior? Sure, you can worship an ideal, but many Gm's recoil and such cherrypicking of domains.
How can a Cleric of Gorum be anything but a Cleric of Gorum? I can see mercenary.. of Gorum.
Even such an easy, fairly unfocused belief system (kill stuff, wear armor) forces a cleric of gorum to acknowledge that is where his power comes from.
TL;DR
What else can a cleric be, besides a priest, servant, or holy warrior of a given god/church? (assuming you must believe in a god to get your power.)
Well, a depending on the god, theres a lot of things clerics could be.
Scout, ranger, missionary, mercenary, judge, counsellor, etc.
Sure, their power comes from the gods. But what they DO with it can define who they are. The best scout for an army could be a cleric of desna. he thinks of himself less as a cleric, and more of a scout.
just examples.
Shaman, witch doctor, nature spirit, holy warrior, prophet, mystic...
Heck you could even flavor it as a voodoo priest.
but if their power comes from the gods... why do the gods grant such power if the character never uses it to further the gods goal?
IN the above example, why would Desna grant powers to a character if all that person does is scout for an army? IF the cleric doesn't act like a cleric or give credit to the god (where admittedly, credit is due) what is the point?
on the other hand...
Clerics make for poor pickpockets and burglars, so what of thief gods? Their clerics venerate them, but are unable to imitate.
I imagine Erastil's Clerics make poor hunters too.
It seems like Clerics get pretty well shoehorned into being priests, no matter their occupation.
perception and stealth make a better hunter in my experience. walk into the forest a bit quietly, (stealth) spot a deer (perception) and shoot it. you don't need to live out there for a week. (survival, knowledge nature)
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Clerics make for poor pickpockets and burglars, so what of thief gods? Their clerics venerate them, but are unable to imitate.I imagine Erastil's Clerics make poor hunters too.
It seems like Clerics get pretty well shoehorned into being priests, no matter their occupation.
Wrong.
There is absolutely nothing supporting these claims whatsoever.
How can a Cleric of Gorum be anything but a Cleric of Gorum? I can see mercenary.. of Gorum.
Even such an easy, fairly unfocused belief system (kill stuff, wear armor) forces a cleric of gorum to acknowledge that is where his power comes from.
For chaotic deities, I would suggest that a strongly regimented belief system is a little out of place.
Take more of the mindset of "Gorum smiles upon me because I send my enemies to him" The "cleric" lives his life according to his values, which happen to align well with that of the deity, they are such a natural match, that the cleric receives tangible manifestations of the god's favor. Treat it as that and nothing more, the favor of the gods.
The rote and trappings of faith aren't "mechanically necessary" to make the class function, strip all the fluff away that doesn't match your character and create your own stylistically appropriate fluff that supports the game mechanics.
in any case, my point is that no matter the occupation, (soldier, hunter, barrister, doctor, etc) at the end of the day SOMETHING is granting these people divine power, and they must realize it to cast spells, and to pray for said spells.
They are actively worshiping some kind of power, and probably telling people they know about it, or people are noticing.
they are pulling off some pretty miraculous stuff that i am pretty sure is outside the scope of being a mere lawyer or hunter.
in a world where people can scorch the earth through sheer willpower...
.... is anyone going to look too hard at why this guy can do fantastic things?
Clerics make for poor pickpockets and burglars, so what of thief gods? Their clerics venerate them, but are unable to imitate.I imagine Erastil's Clerics make poor hunters too.
It seems like Clerics get pretty well shoehorned into being priests, no matter their occupation.
Wrong.
There is absolutely nothing supporting these claims whatsoever.
to be a pickpocket, having Sleight of Hand as a class skill might help. Hunting or scouting kind of requires Stealth and Perception. Those aren't Cleric class skills.
So... there's support.
With traits, and various Cleric archetypes, the possibilities are nearly endless.
The restrictions are in your mind.
I'll give you traits, but not everyone has access to archetypes. Im pretty lax about it, but I know GM's who require you have the book if you want to play something out of it. I personally only own core as a hard copy.
Regardless, my point still stands that no matter your day job, you have magic powers from somewhere, and you are actively praying for them.
MC Templar suggested to flavor it as a gods "favor"... which is fine, but I imagine many gods would still want you in some sort of church hierarchy. I bet Abadar and Asmodeus would be into that.
I bet Abadar and Asmodeus probably have a lot of Lawyers as 'Clerics.'With traits, and various Cleric archetypes, the possibilities are nearly endless.
The restrictions are in your mind.
I'll give you traits, but not everyone has access to archetypes. Im pretty lax about it, but I know GM's who require you have the book if you want to play something out of it. I personally only own core as a hard copy.
Regardless, my point still stands that no matter your day job, you have magic powers from somewhere, and you are actively praying for them.
MC Templar suggested to flavor it as a gods "favor"... which is fine, but I imagine many gods would still want you in some sort of church hierarchy. I bet Abadar and Asmodeus would be into that.
Yes, agreed.
But my point is that they also probably have them function in a church hierarchy in a more religious capacity. Like a priest.
Cleric is, as cleric does... Much like a wizard in that regard. You can create titles for your cleric or wizard, but when you describe them, it almost always boils down to a cleric of ___, or a ___ specialist wizard.
Sure there are multiple builds, spell selections, and niches within the class; but you are still a cleric or wizard, title notwithstanding.
But don't feel sorry for the poor clerics and wizards out there... They do all right for themselves sitting at the top of the heap as the most powerful classes in the game... Way above the almighty rogue/ any man, who has the versatility to be considered just about any thing/ concept/ profession that they want...
I sense that somebody (I'm not saying who) needs to be right, no matter how many alternatives are offered to him.
Let's just all agree to disagree, shall we?
but if their power comes from the gods... why do the gods grant such power if the character never uses it to further the gods goal?
IN the above example, why would Desna grant powers to a character if all that person does is scout for an army? IF the cleric doesn't act like a cleric or give credit to the god (where admittedly, credit is due) what is the point?
on the other hand...
Clerics make for poor pickpockets and burglars, so what of thief gods? Their clerics venerate them, but are unable to imitate.
I imagine Erastil's Clerics make poor hunters too.
It seems like Clerics get pretty well shoehorned into being priests, no matter their occupation.
Why do paladins and rangers have spells if they mostly smack things in the head? Because sometimes it is useful. If an individuals follows the general doctrine of the god, and receive enough training to commune with that god, then their actual role has little importance.
Many of Cayden Cailean's are barkeeps for example, with a shrine in the back for people to make drunken prayers to. This is more about the general role they fill in their lives rather than mechanically in a party. Even then, I think that since most NPC's are commoners below, what? Level 5? You would end up with an ungodly amount of skill even with just 4 skill points per level and not having it as a class skill compared to them.
Admittedly a very lawful deity might be more strict over dedication, but more lenient gods would accept general prayers done during one's daily life (such as during meals) for keeping your general status. Observance of religious ceremonies, such as harvest festivals and the like, would help round that out. Serious communion seems like it would come when you are asking for magic.
It's hard for me to justify not being consciously in service to something, but depending on domain powers, there are a lot of roles they could fill (not necessarily adventure oriented). For example, animal handler/trainer/doctor, armorer, artificer, matchmaker, counselor/psychologist, political leader/revolutionary, military leader, advisor, planar explorer.
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SIMPLE QUESTION, SIMPLE ANSWER. CLERIC AM CLERIC. NOT SHOEHORNED: AM WEARING SANDALS.
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First of all dismissing archetypes is kind of unfair. When people say rangers and bards make better thieves than rogues they are usually talking about archetypes not the straight class.
Second a deity is only going to grant powers to someone serving their interests. This does not mean they have to be a priest in the traditional sense, but their occupation needs to have a connection to the deity. Below is a list of occupations that a cleric of the specific deity could practice.
Abadar: Merchant
Asmodeus: Lawyer
Calistria: Prostitute
Cayden Cailean: Barkeep or Master Brewer
Erastil: Hunter, Mayor, or Sheriff
Gorum: General or Captain of an army
Gozreh: Ship's captain
Iomedae: Judge
Nethys: Scholar
Norgorber: Assassin
Sarenrae: Healer
Shelyn: Artist
Torag: Smith
In societies ruled by divine right they could be rulers and nobles. Osirion come to mind as particularly appropriate for this. The can also be shamans, witchdoctors, prophets, teachers or a whole list of other titles.
Also remember a Cleric can believe in an Ideal (Justice, Law, Power, Greed, Whatever) as well, which widens the possibilities from "Priest of X God" to "Person who believes strongly in any conceivable thing and gains powers from that belief."
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I am playing a half-orc cleric of Gorum in the Kingmaker AP.
Beside being the Kings bodyguard. He is also in change of the administration of guards, soldiers and fortifications.
And a member in the council of tactics and warfare.
Other clerics that I have played:
Human Abadar - Architect. He played together with a paladin educated in bridge engineering.
Gnome Gozreh - Weather forecaster in a big harbor. Fisherman. Cook. And high ranked "Ships blesser"
Interesting clerics I have played with:
Female human Shelyn cleric - She was a guide for noble couples in how to enhance their lives with love, art, music and blablabla. She was awesome. She knew all the secrets about the nobels and her purse was full.
Human Asmodeus - Guildmaster and merchant. The ranger in the party was training imps and guard dogs. Awesome times.
Thanks for the help everyone. I agree, a few ideas are quite obvious (Gorum), its merely the clerics of a few gods I have trouble with.
Blackbloodtroll and Am I The Only One?: Thanks for being needlessly hostile. Explanations and examples work better to educate than personal attacks.
If you are willing to overlook the title of "cleric" it gets easier to overlook other fluff elements, like requesting your spells through supplication or the label of "divine."
"Praying for spells" can become a more generic "meditation" or "self-hypnosis." "Divine magic" can become "mystic powers," "self-created spells" or "boons from the dimensional flux."
The main mechanical distinction between divine magic and arcane magic is Arcane Spell Failure and the inability to swap learning sources, and I'm not even sure about the last bit. They can detect each other, dispel each other, etc. You can describe it in any way that allows the rules to remain consistent. You can even have it not make sense and hang a lampshade on it by making it an in-world mystery. You might even spawn an adventure out of the deal.
Someone could conceivably be so deluded as to think they are a wizard, carry around a "spellbook" of gibberish, never channel energy, and only cast spells they "learn" or make up, and be completely surprised later in life when a mad god of magic comes and laughs at them for being such a good sport.
I even remember a bizarre prestige class in Kingdoms of Kalamar that was an atheist divine caster. Fluff was that a limitless host of smaller, whimsical "divine" entities in the dimensional mix would grant the spells as they were cast because it served their transient interests in that moment.
The potential is limitless. Happy gaming.
Clerics make for poor pickpockets and burglars, so what of thief gods? Their clerics venerate them, but are unable to imitate.
Why sneak and steal when you can use magic to charm or disguise (sometimes even sneak)? These come with the domain spells of those gods for a reason.
A cleric does need to be in the service of his deity. How the cleric serves is going to depend on the nature of the deity. Some deities will want the cleric to be part of the church hierarchy especially lawful deities. This not necessarily mean that have to be ordained priests. It takes a lot of different types of people to run a successful organization. Being a priest means you are preaching and conducting religious services, neither of which requires you to be a cleric. You could even play another class as being a priest without any divine spell casting at all. In that respect a bard may make a better priest than a cleric.
Most religions will have a couple of roles clerics can fill without being a priest. The first thing that comes to mind is healers. Katherine Kurtz Deryni series had healers that were not necessarily part of the church. The cloistered cleric archetype is perfect for the church scholar. The crusader archetype works well for militant orders of knights like the Templars.
Most deities will also have servants focusing on portfolio of the deity. Look to see where the deities interests lie and then look at occupations that are going to be involved in them. Some are easier than others. A dwarf making magical weapons is probably going to be a cleric of Torag rather than a wizard.
but if their power comes from the gods... why do the gods grant such power if the character never uses it to further the gods goal?
IN the above example, why would Desna grant powers to a character if all that person does is scout for an army? IF the cleric doesn't act like a cleric or give credit to the god (where admittedly, credit is due) what is the point?
on the other hand...
Clerics make for poor pickpockets and burglars, so what of thief gods? Their clerics venerate them, but are unable to imitate.
I imagine Erastil's Clerics make poor hunters too.
It seems like Clerics get pretty well shoehorned into being priests, no matter their occupation.
scouting = travel
scouts travel a lot.also a deity granting powers to someone that dosent know they exist is pretty much an oracle.
divine magic dosent always need to come from a god but usually dose. druids and rangers get theirs from nature. a cleric could pretty much function off his belief in chivalry, death ect... the core book says they dont really need a diety if i remember right but most dms will say pick one so it depends on the dm
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TL;DR
What else can a cleric be, besides a priest, servant, or holy warrior of a given god/church? (assuming you must believe in a god to get your power.)
Servant is a pretty broad term. There are many ways to serve a church. Think of the modern Catholic church and all of the differant jobs needed to keep that thing running. Just about any function you can think of is required at some level. I think this game supports that idea with the differant domains, allowing you really find a unique nich. Archeytpes ect take this even further.
MC Templar suggested to flavor it as a gods "favor"... which is fine, but I imagine many gods would still want you in some sort of church hierarchy. I bet Abadar and Asmodeus would be into that.
You and I agree on that one. My comment was prefaced "for chaotic deities". Lawful ones would probably have organized hierarchy (although I could still envision exceptions)
A sideways way to look at it, do you consider the will and power of a deity to be limited to the works of his or her church?
The argument devolves to religion =/= organization.
A devout follower, who fervently believes, lives in a way that pleases/honors the god, but lives a life outside a church hierarchy, can still be granted divine powers as a cleric.
Just like someone who lives as a priest within the church hierarchy, and is empowered by the political and social elements of the church, might actually be an acolyte, bard, rogue, expert, etc.
The organized church is not the god, just one aspect of the god's influence on the world. And a 'cleric' who lives in the laity, can be another aspect of that influence.
MC Templar suggested to flavor it as a gods "favor"... which is fine, but I imagine many gods would still want you in some sort of church hierarchy. I bet Abadar and Asmodeus would be into that.You and I agree on that one. My comment was prefaced "for chaotic deities". Lawful ones would probably have organized hierarchy (although I could still envision exceptions)
A sideways way to look at it, do you consider the will and power of a deity to be limited to the works of his or her church?
The argument devolves to religion =/= organization.
A devout follower, who fervently believes, lives in a way that pleases/honors the god, but lives a life outside a church hierarchy, can still be granted divine powers as a cleric.
Just like someone who lives as a priest within the church hierarchy, and is empowered by the political and social elements of the church, might actually be an acolyte, bard, rogue, expert, etc.
The organized church is not the god, just one aspect of the god's influence on the world. And a 'cleric' who lives in the laity, can be another aspect of that influence.
I think that is a fair way to sum it up. I have an easy time with chaotic or neutral clerics, but for lawful ones... it is more difficult in my mind to find a less tradition role/occupation.
I suppose that is why Clerics have some leniency with alignment... to help allow for different roles in their service.