I'm writing out some potential future events for a Kingmaker game I am running (dragging it out to cover at least 50+ years of in-game time).
What cosmic event could cause the gods to go silent for a time? Something spanning months, or years.
Would all divine magic cease working? Druids and Oracles don't necessarily need to worship divine powers to get their magic; but would the gods retreating from the world cause them to lose their powers anyway?
Would arcane magic continue to function? I know in Forgotten Realms, the death of Mystra (goddess of magic) caused ALL magic to go haywire and stop working (the undoing of the magical 'weave' that connected all things, even arcane couldn't function normally.) Would something similar happen if all gods of magic were suddenly gone?
What do you think the Church of Razmir would do? Have a freakin' field day, since they were the only ones left with "god-given" magic? Could Razmir have been a part of the gods silence, as he attempts the Starstone test?
Interested to hear what people think (and maybe some of the creative staff at Paizo too!)
The easiest way to imagine this happening would be for something on another world to draw the attention of all of the gods--maybe an Outer God becomes briefly sentient, or a Great Old One wakes up, or a godlike powerful alien race declares war on the gods.
Another possible way would be for something to happen that doesn't remove the gods, but interferes with their connection to the world somehow--sort of like when a bomb goes off and people can be shouting at you, but all you hear is ringing? Maybe you could argue that a spell or artifact (or the destruction of a particularly powerful temple during a powerful ritual) could render everyone on Golarion sorta' spiritually flashbanged.
In Dragonlance one of the gods was able to cut off the other gods from the world by distracting them all, then hiding the whole world in a demiplane. So that could work too--especially if the person who moved the world was a mortal archmage, then there wouldn't be ANY gods...
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There have been a number of things that in RPG's have caused gods to go silent. Two that come to mind are from Dragonlance. The first time was during the Cataclysm, where mortals got arrogant and the gods punished them. Mortals then turned their backs to the gods, and overall knowledge of the Gods was lost. The second time was when Takhisis stole Krynn away, and then waited for a time before appearing as "The One God". With Forgotten Realms there is the Time of Troubles when Lord Ao punished all the gods when a few of them attempted a power grab by stealing the Tablets of Fate. The gods were forced into their avatar forms and to spend time on the material plane. During that time no divine magic was available (unless you were within one mile of the deity). The duration of these events varied from three centuries to a few years.
So with those as examples it all depends on what you want to do. The gods could be dealing with an outside threat (or dealing with keeping Rovagug in his cell). There could be an Overgod that has decided that playtime for the gods is over. There is the possibility that the "world" has become shrouded by Norgorber in an attempt to gain something that is very important for him to take a risk in irking off the other gods. The Starstone could be going in flux and be draining power from the divine powers in order to form new ones. The funny thing is I am somewhat doing something similar in Kingmaker. The known gods are going to sleep as the Age is coming to an end. There are new gods that are awakening and are now vying for power to see how the pantheon forms up. How this effects mortals is those that worship the older gods are losing access to spells (high level to low), whereas the reverse is holding true for divine casters of the newer gods. Druids could turn to the Green Faith, but I believe that would take time for them to do so. For Oracles I believe their power would be cut off as well as they are drawing their power from multiple deities that support an ideal.
Magic in Golarion is a resource (from what I know). A removal of all gods of magic/knowledge wouldn't cause any issue with magic in all forms from working, like with Mystra. With that being said spell blights do occur, so there is potential of something happening. I believe that this was left open to allow Gms to determine how magic works. If there was a WeaveNethys would have to be its' guardian. However I dont see him actually taking that role to heart as part of him would want to tear it asunder. Also of note is that magic in Krynn came from Lunitari, Solinari, and Nunitari. After the Chaos War when Takhisis stole the world learned magic was shut off. However magic was still about in the forms of Sorcerers and Mystics (arcane clerics, almost like Oracles but not quite).
I'm writing out some potential future events for a Kingmaker game I am running (dragging it out to cover at least 50+ years of in-game time).
What cosmic event could cause the gods to go silent for a time? Something spanning months, or years.
Gods feed on the life force of its worshipers through their faith.
If the populace cease the worshiping, then the gods will eventually cease to exist.A newfound discovery which prompts an increase of the technology level that evolves into a utopian society based on this discovery.
A utopian society that provides the wants and needs of its people.
The gods are tired of its mortals and decided to do planetary genocide.
A new deity has come forth, more powerful than the existing gods, its sends its messengers to spread its words among the populace.
I'm writing out some potential future events for a Kingmaker game I am running (dragging it out to cover at least 50+ years of in-game time).
What cosmic event could cause the gods to go silent for a time? Something spanning months, or years.
Gods feed on the life force of its worshipers through their faith.
If the populace cease the worshiping, then the gods will eventually cease to exist.
This is actually fundamentally untrue in Golarion's pantheons, at least. James Jacobs has clarified that gods do not need worship to survive, canon. On the other hand, if you wish that in your game, go for it!
Also, I'm thinking about how to add to this thread.
Have Golarion become dimension locked at some point. It falls out of the existence of reality, thus unreachable by the gods. Divine magic would fail, but arcane magic would become enhanced as magic's limitations (i.e. physics of magic) no longer apply. Fireballs can go become as large as a star, stone shape can rework entire continents, etc. Not all amgic would work like that, but you could use the rules for Primal Magic (Inner Sea Magic) to replicate the effect. The effect would be tenfold in the mana wastes.
The world starts going haywire, but slowly acclamating over fifty years. Once the dimension lock is reversed, all divine influence returns as a great torrent, causing the same effect to happen to divine magic. Create water can fill oceans. Divination is foretelling the future with such accuracy that it becomes forbidden. Raise dead is not only bringing people back to life, but rejuvenating them in such a way where they basically have a second lifetime to live. Various religions clash as their power is magnified. Arcane magic, however, is returned to it's normal state and must contend with the new world.
Should make for a fun scenario.
What cosmic event could cause the gods to go silent for a time?
Oh thats easy. Some fighter got his hands on a luckblade and wished 'spellcasters werent so overpowered.'
Badump bump.
I could see some sort of event happening where all of the gods are forced or had chosen to go into a deep slumber. Perhaps something along the lines of an odin sleep. Perhaps the gods have granted so much magic and boons to warriors that they grow weary.
As far as divine magic it would depend I think. Some clerics can work off of their own ideals, druids worship nature more than gods, etc... So, really, there could be ways of divine magic users to still have magic.
Ones that pray to gods for magic however, may have more trouble or no magic at all. Unless, perhaps their faith alone powers their magic, but that'd be up to a DM I think.
Also it's good to bear in mind that the gods have been withdrawing more and more over history--as they've become more vulnerable. The death of Aroden terrified them, and made most of them retreat to the Outer Sphere entirely. Maybe one more big death attributable to their connection to the world--say mortals fighting their way into a god's domain, murdering him and taking his power; or maybe a god in his domain in the Outer Sphere is somehow destroyed remotely by prayers against them (like by Ur-Priests in the Book of Vile Darkness, or the how Egyptians used to say prayers against Set to weaken him) and they might withdraw completely, turtle up and raise the drawbridge on humanity.
Reference divine casters and their power sources, in Pathfinder Core RAW, no divine caster needs a deity.
In Golarion canon, however, according to James Jacobs:
- Clerics: need a specific, specified deity
- Druids: "gain their power from nature"
- Inquisitors/Rangers: unknown
- Paladins: do not need a patron, as they gain their powers from the cosmic forces of law and good (or a deity)
- Oracles: "are chosen by mysterious forces" and thus don't need a patron (even though their mysteries are associated with certain gods, because oracles with those mysteries would tend towards those gods, even if those gods aren't the source of their abilities) - it's clarified that their abilities might not come from who they think they come from
This makes things slightly odd under certain circumstances (such as the gods disappearing/falling silent), because certain things just aren't explained.
Ultimately, the major question you need to answer is: does this event affect all "divine magic" or just those who need to "specify" a patron.
Another, almost equally important question, is: do demon lords, arch devil, empyreal lords, and the like all count? What is the "cut off" area? What about dukes of hell or nascent demon lords (which will have serious effects in Kyonin as Treerazor would be included).
A third (and fourth), related question, that probably won't be as important until later levels: what's going on with the planes beyond Golarion and what about magic items and their functions?
CLERICS
They will be completely cut off. Bam, done, end of story. (Unless you want non-deity-based divine magic to persist in your Golarion.)
NATURE MAGIC
Druidic and ranger magic is considered "divine" and "coming from nature", but from what we understand, based off of Golarion's ancient history, nature itself is at least somewhat "unnatural" or, if you prefer, synthetic. The ecosystem that exists in Golarion is strongly hinted at to have been seeded from beyond the stars, or, possibly, crafted by the gods themselves. In the former case, unless the planet or nature or something starts to become sentient/wake up and is semi-divine (which could be an interesting story*), it makes no sense that "divine power" could be drawn from it. In the latter there are two methods of interpretation that I can see: 1) the gods of nature approve (mostly) of those who revere nature and collectively bless druidic (and rangerish) spellcasting as a result (which could work even if it were seeded from beyond the stars); or 2) there's something of a "divine echo" in and around nature from its ancient creation that people are tapping into.
In all three cases, there are questions to answer:
- Does the semi-aware quasi-divine nature-spirit get "silenced" in this case?
- Is the "divine echo" quieted?
- Is nature-based magic affected at all?
Obviously, you could come up with your own sources for nature magic, but that's kind of how they're described in-canon now.
PALADINS
You could take this in two different directions that I can see. One, would be that Paladins are, like other divine casters, cut off; the other being that Paladins, not relying on specific deities, are not. In the former, you'll have to explain (to yourself) why - (perhaps the "divine contract" that allows paladins to exist, that lawful good compact, requires deities to persist, and is thus cut off when they are?). In the latter, you'll again have to explain why - (perhaps because the 'universal forces of law and good' are more powerful than the deities, or said power derives directly from the plane of heaven itself which might not be cut off, or something else similar?).
Inquisitors and rangers are tricky: Inquisitors are supposed to be dedicated to a specific church, but not (from my understanding) a specific god... which seems kind of wonky, all-told (although they work well for hedge cases like the Hellknights' Order of the Godclaw); and rangers are just guys that are good at survival that get divine magic somehow.
Oracles could still have their abilities, but if they do, that's because they're abilities have become internalized (like a sorcerer) or because they come from some non-deity source (like a demon lord, arch devil, or empyereal lord).
Anyway, any sorts of answers you come up with may or may not impact these groups. Yeah, I know I didn't answer the question - there have been a few good suggestions already, I'm just trying to help over-all. Sorry for the off-topic (slightly) element of this huge post, but I figured it would be helpful to get some ground rules.
tldr: what are you looking for in terms of connections to divine magic and deities, and how to you envision Golarion working?
(NOTE: without divine magic backing it up, Aroden's church dried up super-quickly. So that's likely a thing that might happen. Also, Rahadoum would be super-happy. And Aboleths.)
I've always imagined druids and rangers gaining mystical insight from meditating upon and studying nature the same way monks gain supernatural abilities from studying martial arts and chi mastery. I've always liked to glance over the druid's spell picks for the day and giving them little lesson's they've learned (watching the way trees resist the last night's frost, or how an animal near death is able to eat just a little bit of food and begin to heal) that relate to their spells. I don't really see it as nature spirits or gods granting them spells, or else why aren't they clerics? That said I haven't heard the official word, so maybe I'm wrong and they are basically clerics. I've just never been crazy about that take on things.
As for paladins, I'd argue that those affiliated with gods would become temporarily fallen--those fueled by ethos alone are trickier. Since ethos is supposed to be sort of a concentual slush of power from all the gods of a given alignment, I'd say if the gods go away, so does their slush.
I'm less familiar with Inquisitors and Oracles, but my general rule would be that if you're a religious class who can fall and lose your powers from your god cutting you off, that your god dissappearing would similarly cut you off. If not, you're fine.
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The Arcanis setting (3.5) is very good on this theme.
The Gods are silent, their direct servants are exceedingly rare.
Still the churches are there (and very powerful). Divine magic works as usual. Also Gods have no alignment and thus any god can be worshipped by Clerics of any alignment, which makes for very interesting twists. And all the Gods also have Holy Champions (base classes similar to Paladin).
These are all fantastic ideas, thanks everybody.
Is there another god that's big enough to shake all the gods if they were to die? Irori? Nethys? PHARASMA?! (Okay that last one would have absolutely terrifying consequences and I don't know I want to open that box haha).
Some really good thoughts to consider about what divine magic would actually be affected. Also, totally forgot about spell blights (in case I want magic to go totally haywire if just for a short period of time).
Pharasma for sure.
Asmodeus would absolutely freak people out, especially if no one would know how. That slimy <insert insult here> has a contingency plan for everything, and, of course, the big question becomes, "What happened to Rovagug's key?"
Groetus. Because it's Groetus.
Gozreh, because if Aroden's death caused an "unraveling", as it were, of everything he'd ever done with his personal power and bad problems across Golarion, what would happen if Gozreh - deity of nature - vanished? (I actually straight-up don't know what Gozreh has personally done.) Similarly Erastil.
Abadar would make a big, big blow.
I'd suggest that most of the rest are, more or less, replaceable (though, of course, they and their followers wouldn't necessarily think so); as they tend to be ascended (meaning there was a time before them; Sarenrae, Lamashtu, Nethys, Irori, Cayden, Norgber, and Iomedae; sort-of-kind-of Gorum), aren't looked at too fondly (so won't be missed much; Calistria, Desna), or are otherwise just not really "fundamental to the world as we know it" (the rest). I could be missing a few, though. :)
In any event, any of the gods straight up being murdered/disappearing would be disconcerting, because Aroden bit it so recently and from mysterious circumstances. Another god doing the same? Oh boy. That's... really bad.
If it's a Starstone god... well, then, the gods would likely shun them while trying to find a way to "fix" whatever's wrong with them, and the Starstone itself would suddenly become far less desirable (even if the Starstone has nothing to do with the problem). If it's Iomedae or Milani, well... the pattern of Ardoen-family of gods seems to be that it is more-or-less cursed-and-doomed anyway, then (although Iomedae's death would also cast suspicion on the two remaining Starstone gods).
Actually I think a case could be made for Sarenrae as being "big enough". Sure, there was a time before here but not much of one as she was one of the earliest ascended and was at the battle with Rovagug which means she's been around since primordial times. And considering she struck the final blow against Rovagug she's no small-timer either. Basically, she was the first god to come into existence after the first gods "winked" into existence.
For me, that's the litmus test for who's the most powerful among the deities - who is old enough to have been around at the dawn of Golarion and fight the big battle against Rovagug (though some of the primordial deities didn't participate all that much).
Going by that list we have (in no particular order): Desna, Pharasma, Gozreh, Asmodeus, Sarenrae, Abadar, Torag and of course Rovagug. I'll include Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon in there as well but of some of the lore regarding their age and role in the early days is somewhat hazy and contradictory (they were supposedly born from Thron after the battle against Rovagug but other sources have stated that Zon-Kuthon, not Dou-Bral, forged the Star Towers to help imprison the Rough Beast).
Edit: added some deities and explained some stuff a bit more.
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These are all fantastic ideas, thanks everybody.
Is there another god that's big enough to shake all the gods if they were to die? Irori? Nethys? PHARASMA?! (Okay that last one would have absolutely terrifying consequences and I don't know I want to open that box haha).
Some really good thoughts to consider about what divine magic would actually be affected. Also, totally forgot about spell blights (in case I want magic to go totally haywire if just for a short period of time).
The death of ANY god would shake all the gods--they're skiddish already. Me? I'd whack Gozreh, the super-ancient imbodiment of nature. Or Desna. They're both mystical, powerful and have been around since before Golarion had coalesced from stellar ashes.
Interestingly according to ancient Jewish lore (where Asmodeus comes from in real world lore) he's not an ancient devil...not at all. He's the cambion son of King David and one of the three most powerful succubi in creation. Since King David ruled in about 1000 BC that puts Asmodeus (the real one anyway) at about 4000 years old! 4e lore (which could actually have some weight since Pathfinder bridges different settings) claims that Asmodeus served another god originally, but killed him and took his place, removing all reference to his name and claiming his divine realm. What if Asmodeus took his godhood from another and has been able to pass off all his predicessor's deeds off as his own (ie. writing the contract of Creation, putting down Rovagug, etc.)?
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These are all fantastic ideas, thanks everybody.
Is there another god that's big enough to shake all the gods if they were to die? Irori? Nethys? PHARASMA?! (Okay that last one would have absolutely terrifying consequences and I don't know I want to open that box haha).
Some really good thoughts to consider about what divine magic would actually be affected. Also, totally forgot about spell blights (in case I want magic to go totally haywire if just for a short period of time).
The death of ANY god would shake all the gods--they're skiddish already. Me? I'd whack Gozreh, the super-ancient imbodiment of nature. Or Desna. They're both mystical, powerful and have been around since before Golarion had coalesced from stellar ashes.
Interestingly according to ancient Jewish lore (where Asmodeus comes from in real world lore) he's not an ancient devil...not at all. He's the cambion son of King David and one of the three most powerful succubi in creation. Since King David ruled in about 1000 BC that puts Asmodeus (the real one anyway) at about 4000 years old! 4e lore (which could actually have some weight since Pathfinder bridges different settings) claims that Asmodeus served another god originally, but killed him and took his place, removing all reference to his name and claiming his divine realm. What if Asmodeus took his godhood from another and has been able to pass off all his predicessor's deeds off as his own (ie. writing the contract of Creation, putting down Rovagug, etc.)?
Your analysis of the Jewish legend is accurate, though he derives from Persian mythology, as Aeshma Deva, the god/demon of wrath. He's one of the servitors of Ahriman in that myth, and hence is coeval with humanity or a bit older. Asmodeus (Ashmodai) became a figure in Jewish myth after the Babylonian captivity, when Persian culture influenced them a great deal. I wonder if his youth in the story you describe reflects his comparatively recent appearance in Jewish folklore.
What cosmic event could cause the gods to go silent for a time? Something spanning months, or years.
If you're looking for ideas how about having someone destroy the Starstone? That seems like it would cut off coneections with the Gods at the very least.
Alternatively you could have more gods just mysteriously die like Aroden did and the rest (understandably terrified) cut off all contact with Golarion.
If you want to take out all magic (Arcane & Divine) you could have the dead magic zone in the Mana Wastes expand to cover all of Golarion - though the ramifications of that would be pretty enormous.
Would all divine magic cease working? Druids and Oracles don't necessarily need to worship divine powers to get their magic; but would the gods retreating from the world cause them to lose their powers anyway?
Only Clerics need a god to grant them their powers, but as GM you could run it whatever way you want.
Would arcane magic continue to function? I know in Forgotten Realms, the death of Mystra (goddess of magic) caused ALL magic to go haywire and stop working (the undoing of the magical 'weave' that connected all things, even arcane couldn't function normally.) Would something similar happen if all gods of magic were suddenly gone?
No reason it shouldn't - but if you're planning a cataclysm of this scale they should at least feel some effect - perhaps the spells they share with Divine casters cease functioning properly?
What do you think the Church of Razmir would do? Have a freakin' field day, since they were the only ones left with "god-given" magic? Could Razmir have been a part of the gods silence, as he attempts the Starstone test?
Alternatively you could decide Arcane magic gets jacked up at the same time - that would certainly make things interesting for the Church of Razmir
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Your analysis of the Jewish legend is accurate, though he derives from Persian mythology, as Aeshma Deva, the god/demon of wrath. He's one of the servitors of Ahriman in that myth, and hence is coeval with humanity or a bit older. Asmodeus (Ashmodai) became a figure in Jewish myth after the Babylonian captivity, when Persian culture influenced them a great deal. I wonder if his youth in the story you describe reflects his comparatively recent appearance in Jewish...
And this right here is why I love these boards. Dude. How many posts online do you think start with "Your analysis of Jewish legend is accurate..." and then start pulling in comparisons with persian lore.
If you're looking for ideas how about having someone destroy the Starstone? That seems like it would cut off coneections with the Gods at the very least.Not really... the Gods were in buisness LOOONG before the Starstone was pulled down to smash an empire. It's only special relevance is to the Ascended Gods that were once mortal. like Aroden, Iomedae, and the rest of the newbies.
Although given we have no clue what the origin, history, or full capabilities power of the Starstone, it makes a perfectly fine McGuffin to produce the effects in the OP's question
Mortals operate from a limited frame of reference. There could be a natural time interval that deities go silent (one at a time or all or perhaps each on their own cycle that at times overlap.)
This could be a test of their faithful or a means to weed out the lackluster/fair weather believers. The event might be cataclysmic to mortals but be deliberate on the deities' part.
This could be a way the deities recharge. A mutually agreed upon or predetermined time of rest even for the deities or the means by which they connect to mortals.
Or it could be a time where deities gather to deliberate on issues among themselves which requires their full attention due to contending with other deities. Perhaps it is a conflict mediation session or revisiting of rules of conduct.
Or maybe the deities gather to consider/debate new candidates to be brought/elevated into their fold. This would be a serious matter that all deities should devote their full attention.
All possible reasons that aren't necessarily doomsday scenarios for deities going silent.
That's Asmodeus' story, anyway. How trustworthy the lord of all devils is is something that is clearly up for debate.
Mortals operate from a limited frame of reference. There could be a natural time interval that deities go silent (one at a time or all or perhaps each on their own cycle that at times overlap.)
This could be a test of their faithful or a means to weed out the lackluster/fair weather believers. The event might be cataclysmic to mortals but be deliberate on the deities' part.
This could be a way the deities recharge. A mutually agreed upon or predetermined time of rest even for the deities or the means by which they connect to mortals.
Or it could be a time where deities gather to deliberate on issues among themselves which requires their full attention due to contending with other deities. Perhaps it is a conflict mediation session or revisiting of rules of conduct.
Or maybe the deities gather to consider/debate new candidates to be brought/elevated into their fold. This would be a serious matter that all deities should devote their full attention.
All possible reasons that aren't necessarily doomsday scenarios for deities going silent.
This is exactly why I made this post. I don't know why it had never occurred that maybe nothing serious was happening, and they just really needed a nap or something.
This is exactly why I made this post. I don't know why it had never occurred that maybe nothing serious was happening, and they just really needed a nap or something.Mortals operate from a limited frame of reference. There could be a natural time interval that deities go silent (one at a time or all or perhaps each on their own cycle that at times overlap.)
This could be a test of their faithful or a means to weed out the lackluster/fair weather believers. The event might be cataclysmic to mortals but be deliberate on the deities' part.
This could be a way the deities recharge. A mutually agreed upon or predetermined time of rest even for the deities or the means by which they connect to mortals.
Or it could be a time where deities gather to deliberate on issues among themselves which requires their full attention due to contending with other deities. Perhaps it is a conflict mediation session or revisiting of rules of conduct.
Or maybe the deities gather to consider/debate new candidates to be brought/elevated into their fold. This would be a serious matter that all deities should devote their full attention.
All possible reasons that aren't necessarily doomsday scenarios for deities going silent.
I think reasons for deities to go silent that have less to do with mortals which are only halfhearted in explanation to their followers to be more interesting. Hubris of the divine.
Aroden passed away centuries ago. Now we have the Age of Lost Omens. The gods have spent the intervening years investigating the full impacts of this event. So now they are caught by surprise when an aftereffect of Aroden's passing is that they are cut off from contact with the mortal world. Pharasma knew this was coming but kept silent, as she already gets enough headaches from the other gods for not mentioning that Aroden was going to pass on. This aftershock of the passing of the god of humanity was something she prepared for, however, and she's still able to keep things going. In fact, she's looking forward to it as a chance to deal with a backlog of cases. Sure, it won't last long from her perspective, but having the chance to catch up on things is making the Lady of Graves just a mite happier. The other gods, not so much.
Just as a sorta off-shoot to this...What would happen if a SECOND Starstone fell or was found? Maybe it would be like getting two
transmitters too close together and all you get is signal feed back? Or is the "signal" amplified by being "rebroadcast", making the New Gods even more powerful?
It does make you wonder how many of those Starstone things are floating around up there if grab-bag style you reach out for a meteor to drop on humanity and get a starstone instead.
Heck maybe each one is a peice of a much larger Megastarstone and as they fall to earth are inexorably drawn to each other until they combine again into their full form.
It does make you wonder how many of those Starstone things are floating around up there if grab-bag style you reach out for a meteor to drop on humanity and get a starstone instead.
Heck maybe each one is a peice of a much larger Megastarstone and as they fall to earth are inexorably drawn to each other until they combine again into their full form.
According to Distant Worlds, there are some Starstone fragments on the moon that make people go crazy.