Applying death of a Pregen level 4 to a new character.


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So, looking a the 1st level pregens, those who would qualify are:

Lem the Bard | perform (wind)
Lini the Druid | craft (jewelry)
Lirianne the Gunslinger | craft (alchemy)
Hayato the Samurai | perform (string)

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Moved and merged threads together.

Shadow Lodge

Chris Mortika wrote:

...

--//--

One other note, and I'm picking on Fromper here because he's convenient, rather than any worse than anybody else.

People are pretty free about flinging around the insulting term "jerk". Particularly on this messageboard, "jerk" is entirely derogatory.

Most of the people -- on either side of the GM screen, are doing their best to have fun, make sure other people have fun, and make sure they're following the rules. Somebody following a PFS rule that you don't like, isn't a jerk. Somebody sitting at the table with a character you think is too powerful for the scenario, isn't being a jerk. A GM who plays dangerous foes to the best of her ability, within the restrictions of the NPC's resources and information, is a tough GM, not a jerk. Somebody who isn't following a rule because he didn't understand it, or because it's the custom at his home FLGS to do things differently, he's not being a jerk.

Chris, following that line of reasoning, you could argue that nobody, ever, is being a jerk, that they've always just misunderstood something that can be reasoned out, and the rule never applies.

That's not the reality of it and I'm sure that's not why that rule is there - some people just don't realise that what they're doing is being a jerk about roleplay or rules instead of having fun with it.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Thanks for your comment, Avatar-1.

Sadly, have seen jerks. My criterion is "someone who is trying, as a goal, to spoil somebody else's fun". I've seen GMs try to kill PCs, as if they were playing chess against the players. I've seen players bring characters to a table that are designed to break PFS, "to prove a point". I've seen people cheat. I haven't seen people come to the table having studied the scenario and tell other people what's going to happen, but I've talked to a couple of GMs who have had that happen at their table.

Those are jerks..

The term "jerk" is also used for "the GM following the rules I don't like." Or "the player with bad social skills". And I think we, as a community, can reign in that language.

Silver Crusade

Good morning all,

I'm actually the GM that ran the game where Brandon's pregen character decided to shuffle off its mortal coil. He went down valiantly but alas the BBEG made him a part of its balanced breakfast (serving size: 1 pregen Valeros). (At our table, there were actually two character deaths: 1 pregen and 1 existing character.)

In all seriousness, I'd like to confirm that the way to proceed on this is to allow Brandon to apply this to a fresh, new 1st level character and immediately report it as dead, in according with the discussed FAQ and other forum discussions.

And if this is the case, I'd like to request that this ruling be placed in the sticky thread devoted to PFS rulings, as I believe it would be helpful for what I'm sure is a somewhat commonplace occurrence, as well as be placed in the next update to the Guide to Organized Play.

Thanks for all of the help and replies, folks. It's somewhat ironic and a little embarrassing that this deadly game garnered me my first PFS Star. Anywho, see you all 'round!

-SK

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston aka Netopalis

To Chris and Avatar-1:

Recently, I GMmed at a convention, in which I ran 4 tables. At two of those tables, one party member attempted to take an action which I would have been perfectly justified in calling a mission failure. These were two different people, and both fully realized the extent of their actions. It's disappointing, but we do have players like that, both those who don't know about PFS at conventions and within PFS. Most people are genuinely trying to have a good time. Many people in this category don't understand why their actions are not being fun for others. It's difficult to say exactly what the motivation is, but the bottom line is that jerks exist on both sides of the screen, and that many of them don't realize that they're jerks, but also that a lot of people who seem like jerks aren't really intending it.

To Squirrel King:

Thanks for your post. It's never pleasant to have to respond to things like this, I'm sure. As posted earlier, Mike Brock did say that the player should have the option of applying credit to a new PFS number - I would imagine because chronicles aren't supposed to be filled out until the end of the scenario, and the reporting sheets have a blank for prestige earned, which can only be adduced at the end of the scenario. While it's common for those to be filled out at the start, that's generally a matter of practicality more than it is a matter of rules. Therefore, by the time that chronicles are filled out, the player can decide which character credit will apply to, and does not need to make that choice prior to death.

I do agree that this should be made clearer in the FAQ and in the Guide to Organized Play, as I've recently come across several other GMs who didn't know this rule, either.

Grand Lodge

Squirrel King wrote:

... In all seriousness, I'd like to confirm that the way to proceed on this is to allow Brandon to apply this to a fresh, new 1st level character and immediately report it as dead, in according with the discussed FAQ and other forum discussions.

And if this is the case, I'd like to request that this ruling be placed in the sticky thread devoted to PFS rulings, as I believe it would be helpful for what I'm sure is a somewhat commonplace occurrence, as well as be placed in the next update to the Guide to Organized Play. ...
-SK

Squirrel, this is in the PFS FAQ as mentioned and quoted above. That is your confirmation.


Squirrel King wrote:

In all seriousness, I'd like to confirm that the way to proceed on this is to allow Brandon to apply this to a fresh, new 1st level character and immediately report it as dead, in according with the discussed FAQ and other forum discussions.

And if this is the case, I'd like to request that this ruling be placed in the sticky thread devoted to PFS rulings, as I believe it would be helpful for what I'm sure is a somewhat commonplace occurrence, as well as be placed in the next update to the Guide to Organized Play.

To the first: It's in the FAQ. No further clarification is necessary, since the purpose of the FAQ is, in fact, to provide clarification.

To the second: It's not in the sticky thread devoted to PFS rulings because that's for messageboard clarifications. It's in the FAQ, which is the other place you should look for that sort of thing.

Although I admit I don't hate the idea of it going in the next Guide.


This seems like it can be easily abused. You can use a pre-generated character to play while getting all the reward if the party is successful, and none of the risks of death/failure. Also, if you burn through the pre-generated character's consumables, do you have to somehow have the cost of those items retracted from your real character's money or gold earned from that chronicle? If not... then that skews the WBL highly in favor of the people playing with pre-generated characters.

Also, I haven't been able to find any information on it, but it seems that a 7th level pre-generated character can tag along with a group of 11s, and hide in the back (or whatever to avoid death) of a 10-11 tier playthrough, and once hitting 7 that character gets a ridiculous amount of gold. Given a player can actually use a real character of 7th level to support and tag along with a bunch of 11s and perhaps live, but there's actual real risk in that your character can die. If you screw up and die as the pre-generated character, no real consequences.

If there are measures to stop the abuse of pre-generated characters, please point me in the direction, so I can have the information as well.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

As to the first of your subjects Millefune...

any system can be gamed if pushed hard enough. You normally use an iconic if you don't have a PC of the tier available. Sure you can play level 7 scenarios and 'stock up' then when you hit level 7, you get a jump. You still have to get to level 7 to get those goodies.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Millefune wrote:
This seems like it can be easily abused. You can use a pre-generated character to play while getting all the reward if the party is successful, and none of the risks of death/failure. Also, if you burn through the pre-generated character's consumables, do you have to somehow have the cost of those items retracted from your real character's money or gold earned from that chronicle? If not... then that skews the WBL highly in favor of the people playing with pre-generated characters.

But every scenario you use a pregen is a scenario you cannot use ANY of the gold and items you've earned while playing pregens. So the more you use a pregen, the less that imbalance in WBL actually comes into play. And I sincerely doubt the difference is that great. I have a fifth level character who has not used any of his consumables in the games I have played him in, despite him being heavily GM credited. Which ALSO skews the WBL in favor of GMs, as they have even LESS of a risk than a player running a pregen. Do you also think we should adjust that?

I mean, the worst case scenario is that a player runs pregens/GM credits all the way through to 12th level, and then uses a character that has never had to spend money to play Eyes of the Ten with a high WBL. Then the character is retired or plays post-12 content. Is this really that dire of a problem?


A GM character credit is the reward for a GM taking the time to GM and go through all the preparation needed to run a game well. The GM credit also has to be applied at the lowest tier if being applied to a lower level character. So in the example in my previous post of 7-11 scenarios, when the GM character gets the credit for the chronicle when it hits level 7, it gets the 7-8 tier of the gold/boons/access-to-items. Meanwhile, the pre-generated abuser gets 10-11 tier goodies and gold. If they were to nerf the pre-gen reward to the lowest tier possible, the same way the do for GM credit, that would be a reasonable psuedo-fix.

So Pre-Generated Abuser could get the 10-11 tier prizes for Levels 7-12, but a theoretical full GM Credit would get the 7-8 tier prizes for levels 7-9,and then get the 10-11 tier for level 10 and 11. Nine Chronicles worth of 10-11 tier money/access is a very substantial amount more, and that person didn't even need to put in the extra work a GM has to.

And OK, sure... if done "all the way to 12" it's pretty much a non issue, since they get retired... until they raise the level cap next season or next year. Or if they stop playing the character at 17 XP, then abuse through 7-9, then stop the abuse and actually play for the last two levels of 10-11 when they're totally overgeared thanks to pre-generated character abuse.

The Exchange 5/5

when playing a pre-gen, you assign the chronical either to a new PC or to a PC at that level. so if you played up to 10-11, and assign it to a level 7, you get the 7-8 subtier money.

The only people to get boned on this, would be the people you adventured with. And if you're the 5th person at a season 4 table? shesh! why am I letting you sit with me again?

Playing a scenario with a pre-gen means I can never play it with one of my PCs... price? I play my PCs one less time.
Playing a scenario with someone playing a pre-gen... price? I have to rely on a pre-gen to keep my PC alive.
Playing a scenario with someone playing a pre-gen UP, so that I have to keep him alive too?... priceless (as in I'd never buy it).

5/5

nosig wrote:

when playing a pre-gen, you assign the chronical either to a new PC or to a PC at that level. so if you played up to 10-11, and assign it to a level 7, you get the 7-8 subtier money.

Actually, the pre-gen's chronicle is for the subtier actually played at the table when held for a PC of the level of the pregen. (i.e. 10-11 for the above level 7 pregen).

It's different than how the GM credit is handled, which is what you're listing here.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

I'd have to see the math on a pregen abuser that always played up before I say for sure that it is drastically over wealth. I can also see a lot of shut out scenarios for the player as he dumps dead pregens.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

nosig wrote:
when playing a pre-gen, you assign the chronical either to a new PC or to a PC at that level. so if you played up to 10-11, and assign it to a level 7, you get the 7-8 subtier money.

Sniggevert is correct, you get the awards for the Tier you played with your Pregen, though you do not get the awards until your PC gets to the level of the pregen played.

So if you played a level 7 in a sub-tier 10-11 game you would get the chronicle with the 10-11 reward when you reach level 7.

to reverse that, if for some odd reason you decided to play a level 7 in a Tier 3-7 game in a sub-tier 3-4 game you would get the reward for the 3-4 sub-tier but not until you reached level (I doubt anyone would do this).

The Exchange 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
nosig wrote:
when playing a pre-gen, you assign the chronical either to a new PC or to a PC at that level. so if you played up to 10-11, and assign it to a level 7, you get the 7-8 subtier money.

Sniggevert is correct, you get the awards for the Tier you played with your Pregen, though you do not get the awards until your PC gets to the level of the pregen played.

So if you played a level 7 in a sub-tier 10-11 game you would get the chronicle with the 10-11 reward when you reach level 7.

to reverse that, if for some odd reason you decided to play a level 7 in a Tier 3-7 game in a sub-tier 3-4 game you would get the reward for the 3-4 sub-tier but not until you reached level (I doubt anyone would do this).

Thanks guys! I learn something every day (which is why I come here too often)

(and it just goes to show how many times I've played a pre-gen... shrug)

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Dragnmoon wrote:
nosig wrote:
when playing a pre-gen, you assign the chronical either to a new PC or to a PC at that level. so if you played up to 10-11, and assign it to a level 7, you get the 7-8 subtier money.

Sniggevert is correct, you get the awards for the Tier you played with your Pregen, though you do not get the awards until your PC gets to the level of the pregen played.

So if you played a level 7 in a sub-tier 10-11 game you would get the chronicle with the 10-11 reward when you reach level 7.

to reverse that, if for some odd reason you decided to play a level 7 in a Tier 3-7 game in a sub-tier 3-4 game you would get the reward for the 3-4 sub-tier but not until you reached level (I doubt anyone would do this).

Being the 5th player in a season 4 scenario? Wanting to play the iconic ninja (who sucks at every level?)

The Exchange 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
nosig wrote:
when playing a pre-gen, you assign the chronical either to a new PC or to a PC at that level. so if you played up to 10-11, and assign it to a level 7, you get the 7-8 subtier money.

Sniggevert is correct, you get the awards for the Tier you played with your Pregen, though you do not get the awards until your PC gets to the level of the pregen played.

So if you played a level 7 in a sub-tier 10-11 game you would get the chronicle with the 10-11 reward when you reach level 7.

to reverse that, if for some odd reason you decided to play a level 7 in a Tier 3-7 game in a sub-tier 3-4 game you would get the reward for the 3-4 sub-tier but not until you reached level (I doubt anyone would do this).

But wait, if you were playing a pre-gen in a sub-tier 3-4 game, wouldn't you be required to play the 4th level pre-gen? I thought you had to take the pre-gen that most matched the sub-tier being played? (1st, 4th, or 7th level pre-gen)

.
Otherwise, I could play a high level pre-gen in a group of my friends, and then apply the credit to my new (starting PC), effectively providing a stock 7th level PC into a 3-4 game, to insure that my friends get to play up, and they have a 7th level PC to keep them alive. (say playing a group of 2nd levels in a Tier 1-7 scenario, so the PC mix would be 2,2,2,& 7(pre-gen) and they's get sub-tier 3-4 money).

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

nosig wrote:


But wait, if you were playing a pre-gen in a sub-tier 3-4 game, wouldn't you be required to play the 4th level pre-gen? I thought you had to take the pre-gen that most matched the sub-tier being played? (1st, 4th, or 7th level pre-gen)

You're not the first person to suggest this, nosig, but maybe you can be the first to provide some sort of reference or documentation.

The Exchange 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
nosig wrote:


But wait, if you were playing a pre-gen in a sub-tier 3-4 game, wouldn't you be required to play the 4th level pre-gen? I thought you had to take the pre-gen that most matched the sub-tier being played? (1st, 4th, or 7th level pre-gen)
You're not the first person to suggest this, nosig, but maybe you can be the first to provide some sort of reference or documentation.

LOL! ok chris, I'll go run some searches, but my search-fu is always sub-par, which is why I come here to get you guys to tell me how it works.

.
I will say that in the past, when I am an organizer (or helping out an organizer) and a judge sends a player to me for a pre-gen, I normally ask what sub-tier the game is running at so that I can hand them the "correct" pre-gen from my binder. Perhaps I have been doing this wrong then?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

Chris Mortika wrote:
nosig wrote:


But wait, if you were playing a pre-gen in a sub-tier 3-4 game, wouldn't you be required to play the 4th level pre-gen? I thought you had to take the pre-gen that most matched the sub-tier being played? (1st, 4th, or 7th level pre-gen)
You're not the first person to suggest this, nosig, but maybe you can be the first to provide some sort of reference or documentation.

I too was under the impression that the procedure nosig quoted was the actual rule, but all the guide says is "level appropriate pre-generated character".

Come to that, I was pretty sure I'd heard the suggestion that the credit for playing a pregen should be applied once the character reached the level of the sub-tier played, not the level of the pregen; this would prevent players using pregens getting way ahead of WBL. That still leaves the problem of what to do for character levels that fall between sub-tiers; perhaps a better rule would be to allow the player to apply the chronicle on first reaching the level of any subtier, but with the benefits never to exceed what a GM credit would earn.

Currently I have a pregen credit accquired at subtier 10-11 in a tier 7-11 scenario. Under those rules that would mean I could take this credit at levels 7-9 (earning subtier 7-8 rewards), or wait until level 10 to get the full subtier 10-11 benefits.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

JohnF wrote:
Come to that, I was pretty sure I'd heard the suggestion that the credit for playing a pregen should be applied once the character reached the level of the sub-tier played, not the level of the pregen; this would prevent players using pregens getting way ahead of WBL.

Nop that is not the rule, you get the credit once you reach the level of the Pregen played, that is what it states in the Guide.

And there is no rule in the guide that changes how rewards work for sub-tiers for pregens, and Mike has clarified on the boards that credit from the pre-gen is for the sub-tier played.


And that is why this can be abused. People can pack level 7 pre-gens to get to "play up" on 8-9 and 10-11 tiers and get tons of extra wealth for their level once they hit level 7 with NO RISK to any real character. Level 7 pre-gens should get the 5-6 tier (in a 5-9) or 7-8 tier (in a 7-11) prize, to balance out that there is no risk. If we do it to GMs to balance that they have no risk (even though they put in way more time in preparation and effort into providing the environment and setting for the players), we should do it to people who play pre-gens.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston aka Netopalis

Millefune wrote:
And that is why this can be abused. People can pack level 7 pre-gens to get to "play up" on 8-9 and 10-11 tiers and get tons of extra wealth for their level once they hit level 7 with NO RISK to any real character. Level 7 pre-gens should get the 5-6 tier (in a 5-9) or 7-8 tier (in a 7-11) prize, to balance out that there is no risk. If we do it to GMs to balance that they have no risk (even though they put in way more time in preparation and effort into providing the environment and setting for the players), we should do it to people who play pre-gens.

Making blanket rules like this is really a bad idea. Consider, if you will, the table that I ran yesterday. There were two scenarios offered, and one of the players had already played the 1-5 that was being offered. He also didn't have anything that fit in the level range of my 5-9 table. With or without his level 7 pregen, the table fit in 8-9 territory. Am I supposed to kick the party back down into 5-6 because they have a pregen out of some wrongheaded sense of the preservation of risk? While it may increase the risk for one party member, it would have made the whole scenario laughably easy for the party as a group. Also, at those levels, pregens are even more useless than they are at level 1.

Risk is simply not the end-all that people think it is. We are a campaign that is being played by humans and, in the end, that requires some allowances to be made for the realities of daily life. It's better to be a flexible campaign that accommodates all players than one that is always perfectly matching risk and reward.


Millefune wrote:
And that is why this can be abused. People can pack level 7 pre-gens to get to "play up" on 8-9 and 10-11 tiers and get tons of extra wealth for their level once they hit level 7 with NO RISK to any real character. Level 7 pre-gens should get the 5-6 tier (in a 5-9) or 7-8 tier (in a 7-11) prize, to balance out that there is no risk. If we do it to GMs to balance that they have no risk (even though they put in way more time in preparation and effort into providing the environment and setting for the players), we should do it to people who play pre-gens.

Yeah, theoretically. But have you ever seen someone do this? I certainly haven't. The pregens just aren't particularly fun to play.

Also, GMs don't always get the lowest tier, they get the most appropriate tier for the character. They only have to "play" down if the character is between tiers.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Millefune wrote:
And that is why this can be abused. People can pack level 7 pre-gens to get to "play up" on 8-9 and 10-11 tiers and get tons of extra wealth for their level once they hit level 7 with NO RISK to any real character. Level 7 pre-gens should get the 5-6 tier (in a 5-9) or 7-8 tier (in a 7-11) prize, to balance out that there is no risk. If we do it to GMs to balance that they have no risk (even though they put in way more time in preparation and effort into providing the environment and setting for the players), we should do it to people who play pre-gens.

GM Credit can be abused, too.

It would take a little bit of effort to go truly optimum, but it would be possible to really frontload a GM Credit PC pretty badly on gold with a bit of planning.

Spoiler:
Start by running a Level 2 module. Since the module can be played in PFS by levels 1-3, the GM can assign the credit to a new PC, who is now 2nd level, with 4 PP and 2nd level targeted gold. Helps derail this, at present, because there are no 2nd level modules...

But continue in this vein, running a module that is one level above th ePC, so it is always gaining what amounts to "playing up" gold, and it won't take long before he actually has gold outstripping Fame limits.

But who wants to spend the time and effort?


Netopalis wrote:

Making blanket rules like this is really a bad idea. Consider, if you will, the table that I ran yesterday. There were two scenarios offered, and one of the players had already played the 1-5 that was being offered. He also didn't have anything that fit in the level range of my 5-9 table. With or without his level 7 pregen, the table fit in 8-9 territory. Am I supposed to kick the party back down into 5-6 because they have a pregen out of some wrongheaded sense of the preservation of risk? While it may increase the risk for one party member, it would have made the whole scenario laughably easy for the party as a group. Also, at those levels, pregens are even more useless than they are at level 1.

Risk is simply not the end-all that people think it is. We are a campaign that is being played by humans and, in the end, that requires some allowances to be made for the realities of daily life. It's better to be a flexible campaign that accommodates all players than one that is always perfectly matching risk and reward.

You didn't get what my post meant. The whole party wouldn't be kicked down to play a tier, just that the pre-gens chronicle would have the lower tier awarded to it the same way a GM character that wasn't of the character level level yet would get the lower tier once it's able to have the chronicle applied to it.

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:

Yeah, theoretically. But have you ever seen someone do this? I certainly haven't. The pregens just aren't particularly fun to play.

Also, GMs don't always get the lowest tier, they get the most appropriate tier for the character. They only have to "play" down if the character is between tiers.

I've seen the signs of it starting. I know GM's don't always get the lower tier. I posted that in a previous post along the lines of, "While GMs are stuck getting the lower reward for three levels (7-9 in the example of 7-11 scenarios), a pre-gen abuser would be getting the crazy extra gold for those three levels worth of stored XP."

GMs can't really abuse "no risk, ridiculous reward" since they are forced to take the lower tier if their characters aren't in the level of the higher tier.

kinevon wrote:

GM Credit can be abused, too.

It would take a little bit of effort to go truly optimum, but it would be possible to really frontload a GM Credit PC pretty badly on gold with a bit of planning.

** spoiler omitted **

The amount of extra gold you get from doing what you said could be done is WAY less than what you get for abusing pre-gens. Doing what you said with a Level 7 GM character and running a Level 8 Module like Cult of the Ebon Destroyer (7-9)nets the GM a little under 5K per XP. A pre-gen abuser playing the 10-11 tier with the no-risk 7th level pre-gen gets just under 8K per XP.

Plus, if a GM were to do that, at least three to six players still got to enjoy playing a full module, and he or she had to do a lot of work.

.

.

TL;DR: Pre-gens can be abused by people who want to break the WBL of their lower level characters once they hit level 7, and if we're going to force GMs to take nerfed rewards because they don't have any risk (but still do the work of prepping and running the adventures), we should do the same for players who don't have any risk either (who do nothing more than show up to the table).


You say you've seen the signs of it starting--could you clarify? I ask because I haven't seen people here use pregens when they have their own characters, let alone in the fashion you're describing.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

You know, if people are so worried about gaming the system and gaining more money than they need and they specifically don't play their character to do so... whatever. I couldn't care less.

Seriously. Why would someone want to "not" play their character?

And to top it off, lets say they do this for the entire character's career, and eventually have to play that 12th level character in The Eyes of the Ten, Gen Con and Paizo Con specials and Modules.

First, they won't really know how to play that character well. Because they didn't organically grow with the character and learn as they went.

and Secondly, how boring?!

So if they want to do that, more power to them. I'll enjoy killing said character despite the fact they have 50% more gear than everyone else.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Additionally, as a GM or game day coordinator, I would do my best to make sure that only actual characters are getting played.

In our area we use a meetup site, where typically we try to have what the actual event is posted a couple weeks a head of time (although sometimes its only a week). The Tier is known.

RSVP's are required to ensure a seat. Part of the RSVP process is to tell us what level and class your character is.

We always have at least one game day a week that runs 3 to 5 tier 1-5 tables on Sundays. So if we get someone signing up out of tier, we direct them to the other venue. If the days are different, and they absolutely can't play elsewhere for the forseable future, we can make exceptions. If they are brand new, we can make exceptions. If they were going to GM, so didn't bring their characters, and the table didn't happen; we can make exceptions.

But by-and-large, we would do our absolute best to not have anyone play a pregen at one of our game days.

At the table I'm GM'ing or where I'm coordinating a game day, and I know the player has a character in tier... I wouldn't allow them to play a pregen barring major extenuating circumstances (they forgot their character--albeit happening too many times would have me ask them to remember their character or don't play).

So while yes, these loopholes are there to exploit... I don't know why anyone would actually want to do so, and GM's/coordinators who run an organized game day (I know some areas run a more seat of the pants stile game day, which works for those areas), pretty much can control whether a pregen gets played to begin with.

I'd rather play my character, rather than a pregen for a few extra gold.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

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Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
I haven't seen people here use pregens when they have their own characters, let alone in the fashion you're describing.

It does happen around here occasionally - in fact I've done it once myself. We play at a FLGS, and sometimes not all the people who have signed up for a game arrive. That happened at our table recently - we had two no-shows, which left us without any real front-line combat capability. I elected not to play my normal character, but instead to play Amiri.

We didn't play up, and in any case I elected (right up front) to apply the credit to a newly-created character. That's what has been done on the two other occasions I can recall a player electing to run a pregen to provide capabilities the party lacked (once Amiri & once Kyra, IIRC).

At least one person here has stated they would not have allowed me to run a pregen, as I had a level-appropriate character. If I had been faced with such a GM at that table I would politely have declined to play that week.


JohnF wrote:
Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
I haven't seen people here use pregens when they have their own characters, let alone in the fashion you're describing.

It does happen around here occasionally - in fact I've done it once myself. We play at a FLGS, and sometimes not all the people who have signed up for a game arrive. That happened at our table recently - we had two no-shows, which left us without any real front-line combat capability. I elected not to play my normal character, but instead to play Amiri.

We didn't play up, and in any case I elected (right up front) to apply the credit to a newly-created character. That's what has been done on the two other occasions I can recall a player electing to run a pregen to provide capabilities the party lacked (once Amiri & once Kyra, IIRC).

At least one person here has stated they would not have allowed me to run a pregen, as I had a level-appropriate character. If I had been faced with such a GM at that table I would politely have declined to play that week.

Fair enough. We don't sweat party makeup much in these parts, but I can see it being a valid concern. Not exactly a gateway to abuse, though. ;)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

JohnF wrote:


At least one person here has stated they would not have allowed me to run a pregen, as I had a level-appropriate character. If I had been faced with such a GM at that table I would politely have declined to play that week.

Really? You'd get up and walk away from the table simply because you felt the table composition was poor (thus leaving the table with an even worse composition)? I don't believe that's the purpose for pregens. Pregens are there to play in case you dont' have another option. Not to supplement a table because of party composition.

Extenuating circumstances might include things like your character was in the middle of a multi-parter where a boon at the end required you to play them in order without anything else between.

But honestly, I'd have a hard time taking a player seriously if they got up from my table because I expected them actually play their character rather than a pregen for metagaming reasons.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I usually have a couple characters 'out' or will play an iconic to 'fill the gap' if need be. There's also the 'charlie foxtrot' moment when you show up and realize you forgot the folder with your new first level winter witch, and you play Ezren. :-)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Matthew Morris wrote:
I usually have a couple characters 'out' or will play an iconic to 'fill the gap' if need be. There's also the 'charlie foxtrot' moment when you show up and realize you forgot the folder with your new first level winter witch, and you play Ezren. :-)

I've had that happen before.

I've come to a game day expecting to GM, the table doesn't happen, so I get to play. I didn't bring my characters. So I play a pregen. Otherwise I sit and watch my wife play.

But pregens are not there to round out a party if you otherwise have a tier (sub-tier) appropriate character.

That's one of the aspects of organized play, sometimes you are going to get stuck with a sub-optimal party composition.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

If it were actual meta-game reasons, Andrew, I'd agree. But party composition is an in-game reality. If the party has no healing, VC Hamshanks would probably recruit a cleric of, oh, say, Sarenrae, into the team before my wayang barbarian. Outside the game, it would make the adventue more fun for everybody else at the table. Inside the game, it would make for a responsible society.

Unbalanced parties are sometimes a hoot. But sometimes not. As a guy at the table, I should use my judgement to see how I can best participate to make sure the other players have fun. Sometimes that means I bring my monk in to a party with two other monks and we see who can one-up the others' king-fu. At other times, that indicates I play a pre-gen.

And at other times, it's the GM who can see that this scenario isn't going to work with that character, and can advise accordingly. (My example: a player brought his paladin to 'Haunting of Hinojai' at Gen Con. That's not a good idea: the character can't even see the haunts, because he's immune to fear effects. I allowed that he could play that PC, but playing an NPC would be more fun.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

Andrew Christian wrote:
JohnF wrote:


At least one person here has stated they would not have allowed me to run a pregen, as I had a level-appropriate character. If I had been faced with such a GM at that table I would politely have declined to play that week.

Really? You'd get up and walk away from the table simply because you felt the table composition was poor (thus leaving the table with an even worse composition)? I don't believe that's the purpose for pregens. Pregens are there to play in case you dont' have another option. Not to supplement a table because of party composition.

Yes. In fact the table would have been stronger, not weaker, if I'd walked away; they would at that point only had three players, so they would have been able to enlist the pregen, and not the only level-appropriate character I had. The pregen was a stronger addition to the party, which is why I chose to play her in preference to my character. This decision was taken with the agreement of everyone else at the table.

I find it unfortunate that you seem to be more interested in declaring what I'm doing to be badwrongfun, and trying to find ways to prevent me from playing, rather than providing an enjoyable experience for everyone at the table.

The Exchange 5/5

The person deciding what a player should run at the table is the player. To do otherwise is... odd.
.
If a player sits down for me, at my table, and for some reason does not want to run his PC "Joe" - I've got no problem with that. To say on one hand "run what you want" and on the other to say "run what I want you to" is kind of strange.

If you really want to run a Pre-Gen, for whatever reason, I'm ok with that. I find it kind of odd, after all, why build the PC is you don't want to PLAY the PC? But heck, people do things I find mysterious all the time.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

JohnF wrote:


I find it unfortunate that you seem to be more interested in declaring what I'm doing to be badwrongfun, and trying to find ways to prevent me from playing, rather than providing an enjoyable experience for everyone at the table.

I actually find it irritating that you immediately jump to the conclusion that I'm saying you are having "badwrongfun" or that I would try to prevent you from playing.

The scenario above, the only one who would have prevented you from playing is you.

Secondly, it isn't about "badwrongfun". Its about the intent of a pregen. I don't feel that the Guide supports using a pregen to supplement a party because your character wouldn't round it out enough.

I believe the intent of the game is that you play your character if at all possible. Yes, there are extenuating circumstances that would mean you couldn't (or wouldnt want to) play your character.

I don't believe that party composition is one of those extenuating circumstances.

Potentially bad party composition is one of the aspects of organized play.

And the rare few times I actually get to play, I'm going to play my character. Even if Kyra might be better for the party.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Let's see what the GtOP has to say.

page 6, first column" wrote:
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your local event coordinator.

So it seems that "simply want[ing] to try out" a different class is good enough reason to allow a player to play a pre-gen. Regarding scenarios, John is correct.

page 27 wrote:
For modules and Adventure Path content below 9th level, if you do not have a character in the correct level range, you may use a Pathfinder Society pregenerated character, available on paizo.com or the 1st- and 7th-level iconic characters on pages 275–297 of the NPC Codex.

For modules and Adventure paths, pre-gens are only available to players without characters in the correct level range. For those adventures, Andrew is correct.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

Andrew Christian wrote:
I actually find it irritating that you immediately jump to the conclusion that I'm saying you are having "badwrongfun" or that I would try to prevent you from playing.

How else can I interpret your stated position?

You have made it very clear that your interpretation of the rules of PFSOP mean I have to play a subtier-appropriate character; I don't have the option to play a pregen.

I disagree - I think I can freely choose to play a pregen at any time. But you have said that, as a GM and as an event coordinator, that's wrong, and you wouldn't allow it.

Edit: WRT Chris's point above - I hardly ever play modules, so hadn't looked closely at the differences in rules stated there.

5/5

It seems a simple table solution to this would be that if you have a level appropriate character for the scenario, you have to decide when you sit down whether to apply the sheet to that character or a new one. Rules-bendy, but fair for unusual situations. As a routine occurrence, something needs to change (learn some summoning spells in the instance above).

That's counter to the rest of this thread (which I very much appreciate for clarifying the situation), but avoids the abuse issue which is far more of a concern if they actually *have* a character of that level. {e.g. When sitting down at a scenario that has garnered a deadly reputation.}

Liberty's Edge 5/5

JohnF wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
I actually find it irritating that you immediately jump to the conclusion that I'm saying you are having "badwrongfun" or that I would try to prevent you from playing.

How else can I interpret your stated position?

That I believe that I'm following the rules as I understand them, and that I'm not out to hinder anyone's fun or out to get you?

Why immediately jump to the most negative of conclusions?

If I was out to make people miserable or overly enforce my world view on people, I wouldn't have lasted a year and a half as a V-L and I doubt I would have been able to rack up 89 GM credits, as people would have not wanted to play at my table.

I firmly believe(d?) that the intent of the pregen is not to supplement a bad party composition, but to play only when you don't have another option.

Obviously Chris quoted something from the Guide that I did not recall.

I'm still strongly of the opinion that playing a pregen just to help the party composition is cheesy, and personally I would never do so under those circumstances. To each their own I suppose.

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Chris Mortika wrote:

Let's see what the GtOP has to say.

page 6, first column" wrote:
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your local event coordinator.

So it seems that "simply want[ing] to try out" a different class is good enough reason to allow a player to play a pre-gen. Regarding scenarios, John is correct.

page 27 wrote:
For modules and Adventure Path content below 9th level, if you do not have a character in the correct level range, you may use a Pathfinder Society pregenerated character, available on paizo.com or the 1st- and 7th-level iconic characters on pages 275–297 of the NPC Codex.
For modules and Adventure paths, pre-gens are only available to players without characters in the correct level range. For those adventures, Andrew is correct.

wait, does this mean that if my sunday group is playing Carrior Hill (MOD at level 5, so Tier 4-6) and I have a PC in that range, I can only play at that table if I run that PC? But if I don't have a PC in that range, I'm free to play any of the Pre-Gens?

.
What if there is some reason I don't want to run that PC? (So many possible reasons...).

edit: not that this would be a problem for me, I have lots of PCs...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Yes, nosig. That's what it says. (what it means is up to the people who wrote it.)

The Exchange 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
Yes, nosig. That's what it says. (what it means is up to the people who wrote it.)

O.O

wow. thanks chris!


I remember this coming up during DotSS, because people were scared that it would kill their characters.

(Feh, obviously, but that's not the point.)

Pretty sure the ruling at the time was that you were always free to use a pregen on a module if you were going to use the credit to start a new character, but that you couldn't apply it to one who existed at the time of the module.

There was also a note that the rules were going to change. I thought at the time that meant they would change to be more lax, but apparently I was mistaken.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

You can't use the "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" pre-gens in PFS in any case. The pre-gens for "We Be Goblins!" are called out specifically and uniquely as allowed in the FAQ. Not so "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun".

"FAQ wrote:
Pregenerated characters printed in "We Be Goblins!" may be used when playing that module only. Pregenerated characters appearing in Pathfinder RPG Adventure Paths and Pathfinder RPG Modules are not legal for play. Any pregenerated characters that appear in the NPC Codex will be addressed in Additional Resources under that book.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Chris Mortika wrote:
You can't use the "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" pre-gens in PFS in any case. The pre-gens for "We Be Goblins!" are called out specifically and uniquely as allowed in the FAQ. Not so "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun".

Well that is annoying I have been going by this post from Mike that says we can.

Michael Brock wrote:
You can use the pregens provided with the module for this module only for PFS credit. You may not use the pregens in this module for any other PFS event besides Dawn of the Scarlet Sun.

I wonder if he missed that in the FAQ, or changed his mind.

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