Applying death of a Pregen level 4 to a new character.


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Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

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Chris Mortika wrote:

You can't use the "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" pre-gens in PFS in any case. The pre-gens for "We Be Goblins!" are called out specifically and uniquely as allowed in the FAQ. Not so "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun".

"FAQ wrote:
Pregenerated characters printed in "We Be Goblins!" may be used when playing that module only. Pregenerated characters appearing in Pathfinder RPG Adventure Paths and Pathfinder RPG Modules are not legal for play. Any pregenerated characters that appear in the NPC Codex will be addressed in Additional Resources under that book.

The Scarlet Sun pregens may not be called out in the FAQ, but this forum post by Michael Brock makes it clear that the rules for "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" are basically the same as those for "We Be Goblins!" - the pregens from the module are PFS legal for use in that module, but only there - they can not be used in other PFS settings.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The FAQ has been updated since Mike's post, and is the most current ruling, John.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

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Andrew:
Unfortunately, you are one of several people whose posts, in general, seem to be such that my playing with you, as player or GM, would be contra-indicated, since your idea of fun, as expressed by your posts, and mine seem to be at odds with each other.

You may not be the wet blanket your posts give the appearance of, but that is what impression your posts give me.


On one of the side topics that came up, regarding "no risk" playing up of a 7th level pregen in sub-tier 10-11 games.

This is very unlikely given several of the rules of PFSOP.

1) You can only give credit to a PC for pregen play when your PC is at the same level as the pregen, or, with cut-down gold, to a new PC. Can you even give that 4th 7th level pregen chronicle to a PC that just hit 8th level?

2) APL limitations tend to strongly discourage being able to come up with a table which has even one 7th level character at it being able to play at sub-tier 10-11. It is possible, but takes a bunch of "willing" partners. Let's say, just for giggles, you can get a table of 6 players, on a Season 0-3 scenario going. Your APL needs to be at least 9.5 after all adjustments.

APL +1 for a 6 man table.
APL 8.5 for party average.
8.5*6 = 51 levels divided amongst the players' characters.
51-7 = 44 for the other 5 players.
44/5 = 8.8, so a group of 4 9s and an 8, along with the 7th level pregen, minimum.

To be honest, for Season 3, and likely Season 2, I would refuse to play up. For Season 0 or Season 1, I might think about it. But it would tend to be a bad idea, since you could be facing an opponent or encounter which is CR 15. That could be one 16th level type, or a fairly large assortment of a party lead by strong NPCs.

Now, for a group of five 10th and 11th level PCs, and one 7th level, I would tend to look askance at the player of the 7th level. "How likely is that one to survive, especially since it is Ezren?"

Overall, getting into a situation where playing up with a 7th level pregen is going to be fairly rare. If you do it often, it will probably be noticed, and, if it happens at a Game Day type event, where there are multiple tables, likely to find the coordinator finding out what level PCs you have with, and moving you to that table, instead.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Kinevon:
Be that as it may. But I would wager that all the players in my region who enjoy playing at tables that I both GM and play at, wouldn't agree. The point of these boards, IMHO, is to hash out these rules and have open discussion about what they mean to each of us. I have a strong personality and happen to state my opinion very strongly. But at the table, I can assure you, fun is my main goal.

EDIT: It also boggles my mind (and frustrates me a bit) when extreme examples are given, that will likely never happen, and then the one giving the extreme example gets all upset when someone either quotes a rule that they feel would apply or declares "not at their table." And I don't make comments like, "I wouldn't want sit at a table with such a drama queen." I take their comment for what it is, board chatter, and move on.

Additionally, I don't see how I'm ruining someone's fun by telling them they'd have to play their own character. That really seems counter-intuitive to me and completely opposite of what this game is supposed to be about.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston aka Netopalis

To agree with the others, I would state that it would be a rare table indeed where a 7th level pregen bumped the team into the higher tier. I just don't see this happening that often, and certainly not for the purposes of reducing risk. There's no need to complicate rules to prevent something that doesn't happen.

The Exchange 5/5

Netopalis wrote:
To agree with the others, I would state that it would be a rare table indeed where a 7th level pregen bumped the team into the higher tier. I just don't see this happening that often, and certainly not for the purposes of reducing risk. There's no need to complicate rules to prevent something that doesn't happen.

But in the past, when there is a Pre-Gen at my table, I was enforcing the WRONG RULE. And it is possible that other judges/organizers have been also.

I had thought (until corrected here earlier) that the Pre-Gen selected had to be the closest to the APL of the table. Now I know different, and that it is in fact the choice of the person running the Pre-Gen. So when the 6 guys show up to play 0-07-"Amoung the Living" (Tier 1-7) with starting PCs (1st level), one player can decide to play the 7th level Pre-Gen Cleric and pull the table into Sub-Tier 3-4. Plus, he'd have a 7th level Cleric to keep everyone alive...
(APL=1+1+1+1+1+7/6=2 +1 for a full table = a solid 3). And then decide to take the credit on a new PC.

Not that this would ever happen - no one "games the system" like that, right?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

nosig wrote:
Netopalis wrote:
To agree with the others, I would state that it would be a rare table indeed where a 7th level pregen bumped the team into the higher tier. I just don't see this happening that often, and certainly not for the purposes of reducing risk. There's no need to complicate rules to prevent something that doesn't happen.

But in the past, when there is a Pre-Gen at my table, I was enforcing the WRONG RULE. I had thought (until corrected here earlier) that the Pre-Gen selected had to be the closest to the APL of the table. Now I know different, and that it is in fact the choice of the person running the Pre-Gen. So when the 6 guys show up to play 0-07-"Amoung the Living" (Tier 1-7) with starting PCs (1st level), one player can decide to play the 7th level Pre-Gen Cleric and pull the table into Sub-Tier 3-4. Plus, he'd have a 7th level Cleric to keep everyone alive...

(APL=1+1+1+1+1+7/6=2 +1 for a full table = a solid 3). And then decide to take the credit on a new PC.

Not that this would ever happen - no one "games the system" like that, right?

First of all, if a pregen is being played at a table like you describe, chances are they are a brand new player. Hand them the level 1 pregen and be done with it. Don’t even give them the option to play a level 4 or 7 pregen.

If it is an experienced player, ask them why they are choosing to play a pregen instead of their own character. If they don’t have a good reason, then strongly urge them to play their own character.

As a GM, I will refuse to let a table game the system like you describe. I’ll try to enforce what I’ve already stated above, that unless there are good extenuating circumstances, you gotta play your own character. If the player(s) want to play rules lawyer and say that I have to, I’ll get up and walk off. I will not be party to that kind of rule abuse.

In John F.’s situation, I probably wouldn’t be as adamant. I certainly wouldn’t get up and walk away from the table. Seeing the latest actual quote from the Guide, I probably couldn’t force him to play his own character (why I would even need to seems ridiculous to me.) But I would strongly urge him to. If he was adamant to play the pregen, I’d inform them that if the only reason you are doing this is to help out party composition, then the gloves come off. If you want to play the game to ensure an optimized party, then the intelligent badguys just became tactical geniuses. Otherwise, just play your character, let the chips fall where they may, and I can use my common sense to help it be challenging, yet not a TPK. I’m not a killer GM. I don’t softball things, but I do try to scale the way I run the encounters (within the way its written of course) to be challenging, with a risk of failure, but not ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard. I do this based on what the characters are, and how in/experienced they might be.

But if you want to game the system, I can go “all out” as a GM too.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, West Virginia—Charleston aka Netopalis

nosig wrote:
Netopalis wrote:
To agree with the others, I would state that it would be a rare table indeed where a 7th level pregen bumped the team into the higher tier. I just don't see this happening that often, and certainly not for the purposes of reducing risk. There's no need to complicate rules to prevent something that doesn't happen.

But in the past, when there is a Pre-Gen at my table, I was enforcing the WRONG RULE. And it is possible that other judges/organizers have been also.

I had thought (until corrected here earlier) that the Pre-Gen selected had to be the closest to the APL of the table. Now I know different, and that it is in fact the choice of the person running the Pre-Gen. So when the 6 guys show up to play 0-07-"Amoung the Living" (Tier 1-7) with starting PCs (1st level), one player can decide to play the 7th level Pre-Gen Cleric and pull the table into Sub-Tier 3-4. Plus, he'd have a 7th level Cleric to keep everyone alive...
(APL=1+1+1+1+1+7/6=2 +1 for a full table = a solid 3). And then decide to take the credit on a new PC.

Not that this would ever happen - no one "games the system" like that, right?

1) People game the system, yes, but not in this way. I've never seen anybody attempt this, and I doubt that anybody would. I simply wouldn't allow it at my table.

2) If it WAS allowed, the party will still have a tough time surviving. At 3-4, there's stuff that can *easily* kill a level 1 party member in a single blow, cleric or not. At that point, I'd also be out for blood as a GM, especially if they had refused to take the lower level pregen and nobody at the table had objected. Even if they did survive, though, playing up once isn't the end of the world - it happens quite regularly with non-gamed parties.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

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Andrew Christian wrote:
In John F.’s situation [...] I’d inform them that if the only reason you are doing this is to help out party composition, then the gloves come off. If you want to play the game to ensure an optimized party, then the intelligent badguys just became tactical geniuses.

Who's talking about an optimized party? I'm talking about fielding a party that's able to survive the scenario, and possibly have a chance of achieving the end goal. We weren't looking for a cakewalk - we were looking to live through the experience.

Chris Mortika has already alluded to circumstances where he, as GM, has advised a player that running the character he brought to the table might not have been a good idea. In our case we were missing two players that had signed up, and had some overlap of roles in those who were present. When I said this decision was made with the agreement of everyone at the table, that included the GM - he was concerned that the party makeup he saw was going to have serious problems (in fact, after the session, he let us know that he would have expected things to end in a TPK).

It was decided that one of us would play a pregen (to provide either a good front-line tank or a divine caster; we were missing both those roles). My character was probably going to be the least effective contributor in this particular scenario, so the lot fell to me.

The Exchange 5/5

Netopalis wrote:
nosig wrote:
Netopalis wrote:
To agree with the others, I would state that it would be a rare table indeed where a 7th level pregen bumped the team into the higher tier. I just don't see this happening that often, and certainly not for the purposes of reducing risk. There's no need to complicate rules to prevent something that doesn't happen.

But in the past, when there is a Pre-Gen at my table, I was enforcing the WRONG RULE. And it is possible that other judges/organizers have been also.

I had thought (until corrected here earlier) that the Pre-Gen selected had to be the closest to the APL of the table. Now I know different, and that it is in fact the choice of the person running the Pre-Gen. So when the 6 guys show up to play 0-07-"Amoung the Living" (Tier 1-7) with starting PCs (1st level), one player can decide to play the 7th level Pre-Gen Cleric and pull the table into Sub-Tier 3-4. Plus, he'd have a 7th level Cleric to keep everyone alive...
(APL=1+1+1+1+1+7/6=2 +1 for a full table = a solid 3). And then decide to take the credit on a new PC.

Not that this would ever happen - no one "games the system" like that, right?

1) People game the system, yes, but not in this way. I've never seen anybody attempt this, and I doubt that anybody would. I simply wouldn't allow it at my table.

2) If it WAS allowed, the party will still have a tough time surviving. At 3-4, there's stuff that can *easily* kill a level 1 party member in a single blow, cleric or not. At that point, I'd also be out for blood as a GM, especially if they had refused to take the lower level pregen and nobody at the table had objected. Even if they did survive, though, playing up once isn't the end of the world - it happens quite regularly with non-gamed parties.

while my example is the extream end - this same can be done in a less "offensive" way.

Say you have a party of 4 players, 3 with 2nd level PCs and one with a 3rd level. Now they are playing a season zero scenario, and they know how "easy" those are, so to challange themselves they want to play up.
(2+2+2+3)/4 is 2.25, sorry guys - you are Tier 1-2.
But then one of the 2s goes - "I know, I'll play a Pre-Gen, and put the credit to my other PC... the one I haven't started yet. Heck, I can try out the cleric and see if I want to build one." So now the APL is:
(2+2+3+4)/4 is 2.75 rounds to 3 so they get thier choice (unless it's Tier 1-7, then they would be sub-tier 3-4).
This is allowed.

Except we now appear to have judges saying they are asking for it, and they will punish the players for doing this. For "gaming the system". For playing by the rules, and trying to have fun. The problem here is not the players - it's the rules. If we don't want players to do it, we need to change the rules to prevent it, not target the offenders.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

JohnF wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
In John F.’s situation [...] I’d inform them that if the only reason you are doing this is to help out party composition, then the gloves come off. If you want to play the game to ensure an optimized party, then the intelligent badguys just became tactical geniuses.

Who's talking about an optimized party? I'm talking about fielding a party that's able to survive the scenario, and possibly have a chance of achieving the end goal. We weren't looking for a cakewalk - we were looking to live through the experience.

Chris Mortika has already alluded to circumstances where he, as GM, has advised a player that running the character he brought to the table might not have been a good idea. In our case we were missing two players that had signed up, and had some overlap of roles in those who were present. When I said this decision was made with the agreement of everyone at the table, that included the GM - he was concerned that the party makeup he saw was going to have serious problems (in fact, after the session, he let us know that he would have expected things to end in a TPK).

It was decided that one of us would play a pregen (to provide either a good front-line tank or a divine caster; we were missing both those roles). My character was probably going to be the least effective contributor in this particular scenario, so the lot fell to me.

And in my case, I'd ask you to trust me as the GM. Play your character. Only under extenuating circumstances should you be playing a pregen. I don't feel party composition is one of those circumstances.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Andrew Christian wrote:
I'd ask you to trust me as the GM.

Which, of course, is one of the stickiest issues in PFS.

The Exchange 5/5

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Jiggy wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
I'd ask you to trust me as the GM.
Which, of course, is one of the stickiest issues in PFS.

one would expect this to go both ways...

yet, so often the response to a players questions to the judge is "what are you trying to pull?" and the knee-jerk reaction of "not at MY table".

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Andrew Christian wrote:
JohnF wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
In John F.’s situation [...] I’d inform them that if the only reason you are doing this is to help out party composition, then the gloves come off. If you want to play the game to ensure an optimized party, then the intelligent badguys just became tactical geniuses.

Who's talking about an optimized party? I'm talking about fielding a party that's able to survive the scenario, and possibly have a chance of achieving the end goal. We weren't looking for a cakewalk - we were looking to live through the experience.

Chris Mortika has already alluded to circumstances where he, as GM, has advised a player that running the character he brought to the table might not have been a good idea. In our case we were missing two players that had signed up, and had some overlap of roles in those who were present. When I said this decision was made with the agreement of everyone at the table, that included the GM - he was concerned that the party makeup he saw was going to have serious problems (in fact, after the session, he let us know that he would have expected things to end in a TPK).

It was decided that one of us would play a pregen (to provide either a good front-line tank or a divine caster; we were missing both those roles). My character was probably going to be the least effective contributor in this particular scenario, so the lot fell to me.

And in my case, I'd ask you to trust me as the GM. Play your character. Only under extenuating circumstances should you be playing a pregen. I don't feel party composition is one of those circumstances.

Been there, done that. Technically, that game should have been a TPK.

We had four players, two of them playing 4th level pregens. That was the level of most everyone. Pregens: Valeros and Merisiel. PCs being used: 3rd level Fighter, 3rd level Magus.

Party healing: Magus using +5 UMD n his own wand of Cure Light Wounds, which was the only healing, other than a few potions, in the entire party's inventory.

My Magus managed to succeed 7 times on the wand before I rolled a 1. End of healing.

If I had been less stunned by the party composition initially, I might have remembered to get a wand of Infernal Healing, or recommend one of the new players use Kyra, but I was still busy trying to understand the party composition.

We more-or-less succeeded at the scenario goal, so most of us only got one PP, as we weren't able to complete the scenario, since, after the final big encounter, most of us were at single digit hp, while my PC was actually unconscious.

It was, more-or-less, exciting, but, overall, not that fun an experience, at least for me. YMMV.

Spoiler:
Scenario was 4-02 In Wrath's Shadow, IIRC, and the last encounter we did was against the undead cleric and his ghoul minions. Good party communication made the ghouls cakewalks, almost, but that cleric was a pain. Between Hold Person and paralysis, we were in bad shape when we finally defeated him. With most of the party down, as well.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

nosig wrote:

So when the 6 guys show up to play 0-07-"Amoung the Living" (Tier 1-7) with starting PCs (1st level), one player can decide to play the 7th level Pre-Gen Cleric and pull the table into Sub-Tier 3-4. Plus, he'd have a 7th level Cleric to keep everyone alive...

(APL=1+1+1+1+1+7/6=2 +1 for a full table = a solid 3). And then decide to take the credit on a new PC.
nosig also wrote:

Say you have a party of 4 players, 3 with 2nd level PCs and one with a 3rd level. Now they are playing a season zero scenario, and they know how "easy" those are, so to challange themselves they want to play up. (2+2+2+3)/4 is 2.25, sorry guys - you are Tier 1-2.

But then one of the 2s goes - "I know, I'll play a Pre-Gen, and put the credit to my other PC... the one I haven't started yet. Heck, I can try out the cleric and see if I want to build one." So now the APL is: (2+2+3+4)/4 is 2.75 rounds to 3 so they get thier choice (unless it's Tier 1-7, then they would be sub-tier 3-4).
This is allowed.

To me there is a world of difference between those two scenarios. It generally is not reasonable to expect to see five level 1 and one level 7 together. It is perfectly reasonable to expect to see characters 2, 2, 3, and 4 together. (And that is completely leaving aside the fact that the CR 5 or 6 encounters you can expect to see in a subtier 3-4 fight are likely to squash level 1 characters before Kyra-7 can even get involved...)

The Exchange 5/5

The Great Rinaldo! wrote:
nosig wrote:

So when the 6 guys show up to play 0-07-"Amoung the Living" (Tier 1-7) with starting PCs (1st level), one player can decide to play the 7th level Pre-Gen Cleric and pull the table into Sub-Tier 3-4. Plus, he'd have a 7th level Cleric to keep everyone alive...

(APL=1+1+1+1+1+7/6=2 +1 for a full table = a solid 3). And then decide to take the credit on a new PC.
nosig also wrote:

Say you have a party of 4 players, 3 with 2nd level PCs and one with a 3rd level. Now they are playing a season zero scenario, and they know how "easy" those are, so to challange themselves they want to play up. (2+2+2+3)/4 is 2.25, sorry guys - you are Tier 1-2.

But then one of the 2s goes - "I know, I'll play a Pre-Gen, and put the credit to my other PC... the one I haven't started yet. Heck, I can try out the cleric and see if I want to build one." So now the APL is: (2+2+3+4)/4 is 2.75 rounds to 3 so they get thier choice (unless it's Tier 1-7, then they would be sub-tier 3-4).
This is allowed.
To me there is a world of difference between those two scenarios. It generally is not reasonable to expect to see five level 1 and one level 7 together. It is perfectly reasonable to expect to see characters 2, 2, 3, and 4 together. (And that is completely leaving aside the fact that the CR 5 or 6 encounters you can expect to see in a subtier 3-4 fight are likely to squash level 1 characters before Kyra-7 can even get involved...)

I did state that the example was the extream - not to say that any players around here would push the edges of what is allowed. But where do we draw the line? Realizing that unless it is writen as a rule (different from what we have now, which allows both the above examples), that we just go back to YMMV, whatever your local judge decides is ok, which will be different for each table.

(as a side note, in the first example, in the scenario I used int the example, IMHO, the 7th level cleric should be able to carry the day for the five 1st levels, keeping them all up and playing all the way to the end encounter, and after. It might take using a Shield Other spell or two, and all her Channels, but yeah, they could run that.)

(additional side note: At a PFS table I have seen a 7th level dropped into a Tier 1-7 game with a group of 1s and 2s... and complain that he didn't like haveing to play down (and never offer to run another PC - he only had one after all)).

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Might I suggest "Corner cases make bad law?"

For example, we have a level 3-7 going on tonight. I was working under the mistaken belief that you could choose to play a level 2 character in that case. My roommate was going to play her ninja, with the sparkly brand new level 2, and I was planning to play Rey, who's level 5. My thought was if she wanted to risk the ninja, Rey could 'eat' a tier 3-4 and play big brother. MY choice to use his resources to protect a 'youngin'. Turns out we can't, so I'll be using either of my level 7s, or Rey, and she's 'stuck'* playing a level 4 Ezren or a level 7 Seoni, and having another first level character with one play credit.** This relates to the discussion about high level pre-gens in that we've closed off the 'big brother little sister' type scenario when 'big brother' is not a pregen to prevent the 'my 2nd level character will tag along with all you 4th or 7th level iconics' abuse.

If we start codifying every 'corner' case of abuse then quickly we've no room to breathe.

*

Spoiler:
'stuck' is a bit of a misnomer, as she wants to play a sorcerer and took her player credit from the Fortress of the Nail to apply to a new sorcerer.

**

Spoiler:
Hopefully she'll be able to come this saturday and we'll have a low tier table at Ravenstone so she can play her ninja, her sorcerer or her other '1 table of iconic credit character'

The Exchange 5/5

why not just take the credit for playing the 4th level Iconic and apply it to the 2nd level ninja (or the Sorcerer)? It looks like she would get to add it on when the ninja get's to 4th level.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

Matthew Morris wrote:
having another first level character with one play credit.

Why not just assign the chronicle from tonight to one of her existing characters (e.g. her ninja) and hold it to apply when her PC reaches the level of the pregen that she plays with tonight?

EDIT: nosig-ninja'ed.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

nosig wrote:
why not just take the credit for playing the 4th level Iconic and apply it to the 2nd level ninja (or the Sorcerer)? It looks like she would get to add it on when the ninja get's to 4th level.

*blush* Because I didn't think of that?


So... people said they've never heard of it ahppening... well, it's happening. Level 4 Pre-Gens being taken to the 6-7 tier of a 3-7 Scenario. Happened at one of the society meets in my area, and will likely happen again unless it gets nipped in the bud. They really need to put more control over how pre-gens get rewarded.

Silver Crusade

Millefune wrote:
So... people said they've never heard of it ahppening... well, it's happening. Level 4 Pre-Gens being taken to the 6-7 tier of a 3-7 Scenario. Happened at one of the society meets in my area, and will likely happen again unless it gets nipped in the bud. They really need to put more control over how pre-gens get rewarded.

Friends, I would like to apologize for this person's comments. He is from my area, and as he is new and does not have a full grasp on the rules concerning pre-generated characters, nor does he know the entire story concerning this one person and is speaking out of place.

First of all.. We all already know, that Society rules state, that if you play a pre-generated character, you do so knowing that if the pre-gen dies, or gets any special conditions, this immediately applies to the character that would receive the credit. So this means, if a level 4 pregen comes into a 6-7 fight (which was not the case in this matter), then they will have no choice but to duke it out. Any conditions or deaths that occur, immediately apply to that level 4 character.

We know that the pre-gens are not the ideal way of playing but in the same respect, it's either that, or we send players home. Which is more important? Making sure we can seat and get as many people as possible to play. It is my hope that one day we will come to some better arrangement, but for now, we make due, and that's all that matters.

Thanks!

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

Lady Ophelia wrote:
We know that the pre-gens are not the ideal way of playing but in the same respect, it's either that, or we send players home.

I think you're missing at least part of the point. If you're playing at a subtier 6-7 table then you should probably be using a level 7 pregen, not the level 4 one.

Silver Crusade

JohnF wrote:
Lady Ophelia wrote:
We know that the pre-gens are not the ideal way of playing but in the same respect, it's either that, or we send players home.
I think you're missing at least part of the point. If you're playing at a subtier 6-7 table then you should probably be using a level 7 pregen, not the level 4 one.

Exactly, that's the part he missed. My fault for not mentioning it.


I didn't miss that or any part, that's the thing I'm fighting for. JohnF was saying that you missed the part that I want it so that people can't abuse pre-generated characters by playing up with no risk by using a lower level pre-generated character than the tier played.

Anyway, you know what was posted elsewhere by the other player that caused my concern, if that player made a mistake on his post, then that's that. It was a miscommunication on his part. Since this is being handled internally with our area management, I'm not going further with this topic, I am just posting this because it's being made out that I misread or misunderstood something, when I didn't.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

Lady Ophelia wrote:
First of all.. We all already know, that Society rules state, that if you play a pre-generated character, you do so knowing that if the pre-gen dies, or gets any special conditions, this immediately applies to the character that would receive the credit. So this means, if a level 4 pregen comes into a 6-7 fight (which was not the case in this matter), then they will have no choice but to duke it out. Any conditions or deaths that occur, immediately apply to that level 4 character.

That's not what the FAQ states:

FAQ wrote:

If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?

Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.

Emphasis mine. So the 'real' character (that the player is intending to apply the credit to) is not in the peril you think it is.


Andrew Christian wrote:

In John F.’s situation, I probably wouldn’t be as adamant. I certainly wouldn’t get up and walk away from the table. Seeing the latest actual quote from the Guide, I probably couldn’t force him to play his own character (why I would even need to seems ridiculous to me.) But I would strongly urge him to. If he was adamant to play the pregen, I’d inform them that if the only reason you are doing this is to help out party composition, then the gloves come off. If you want to play the game to ensure an optimized party, then the intelligent badguys just became tactical geniuses. Otherwise, just play your character, let the chips fall where they may, and I can use my common sense to help it be challenging, yet not a TPK. I’m not a killer GM. I don’t softball things, but I do try to scale the way I run the encounters (within the way its written of course) to be challenging, with a risk of failure, but not ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard. I do this based on what the characters are, and how in/experienced they might be.

But if you want to game the system, I can go “all out” as a GM too.

To give you a hint of why people may think your behavior is "against fun":

I read this passage as extremely aggressive and petulant behavior. If the rules allow "pregens for almost any reason", why would you make it a point to essentially penalize a party composed entirely within the rules of PFS?

If you truly do use the boards to clarify rules and hash out what what is allowed, you should have backed off once the rule was stated that allowed the behavior being discussed. Then, perhaps a new thread discussing a rule change would be appropriate. . . .

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