RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Hello, I've just started playing pathfinder this month and still rather new.
So, my party completed the all day module "Midnight Mirror" yesterday. I was supposed to be level 3 and committed to playing for the day a couple weeks ago as spots fill quickly in my area. Unfortunately, due to some circumstances, I missed one of my sessions and was unable to use my character.
I used a level 4 PreGen fighter which is all good and well. But, after playing for the entire day, my character died at the last boss fight.
So, I did some searching to see what my option were in this instance and came across: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mwkz?PreGenerated-Replay-rules-clarification-a nd#1I would like to apply the chronicle sheet to a fresh level 1 character and wanted to clear some things up.
- Would the character still die at level 4 when applied to a fresh character?
- When applying to a fresh character, what would be the gold allotment? It says 500g, but I'm assuming that the ruling was based on a normal adventure were the average adventure haul is 500g, bringing it on par with what the character would have gotten if he were level 1.
Here's what I'm pretty sure will happen based on my knowledge of PFS (I've GM'd several sessions at a few different conventions, but I'm by no means an expert):
-You'll be able to apply the experience to a new character. However, you can't apply it until that character gets to the appropriate level to use it (3rd level in this case).
-The character death will not affect your new character. That's one benefit of playing a pregen... you don't actually have consequences associated with a normal character. The death of the pregen should not affect your new character at all.
-The gold amount is correct (500g) but you don't get it until you hit the level where you can apply the experience (so 3rd level).
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Doesn't matter what the gold allotment is, he's dead right out of the gates. It's just like you made a new character and he died in his first scenario. No chance for raise dead. Just make sure that in scenario reporting it goes to a PFS number that you haven't used yet.
That sums it up. Create a new character named Mr. Dead Guy, and apply the chronicle from this adventure to him. Then forget he ever existed. He gets the gold from this adventure, which covers his funeral expenses.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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All right, let's ask a different question.
If a player is using a pre-gen, many GMs require her to designate which character will receive the credit for the game, before the session begins. In thsoe cases, a pre-gen's 7th-level death might impact an active character.
Does that character immediately die, or can she live till 7th-level? If the PC has enough prestige, but doesn't have the character at hand, can she pay for her raise dead at the beginning of her next session?
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| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All right, let's ask a different question.
If a player is using a pre-gen, many GMs require her to designate which character will receive the credit for the game, before the session begins. In thsoe cases, a pre-gen's 7th-level death might impact an active character.
Does that character immediately die, or can she live till 7th-level? If the PC has enough prestige, but doesn't have the character at hand, can she pay for her raise dead at the beginning of her next session?
Any GM that forces a pregen death to apply to an active PC, rather than letting the player create a new dead character in a coffin, is violating the "Don't be a jerk" rule.
I was under the impression that in a case like this whether the character lived or died the cronicle sheet couldn't be applied until the character reached the approprate level, so following that logic if you applied a cronicle sheet from a teir 3-5 to a new character she wouldn't die until reaching 3rd level, at which point you would have enough gold and pp for basically nothing. now if the pregen was level one, our new character is dead out of the gate. Am I incorrect?
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Doesn't matter what the gold allotment is, he's dead right out of the gates.
This is not necessarily true.
Equipment listed on the pregenerated
character sheet may only be sold to clear conditions such
as death or during the play of a sanctioned event, and
any remaining gold does not carry over at the end of
the adventure.
So if the pregen dies, the gold earned from the module plus the gold from selling the equipment of the pregen may be enough to get the character raised from the dead. It is much more likely to be able to be afforded with a level 7 pregen than a level 4, sure, but the raise dead may be able to be paid for.
Does that character immediately die, or can she live till 7th-level? If the PC has enough prestige, but doesn't have the character at hand, can she pay for her raise dead at the beginning of her next session?
The character, unfortunately, is counted as dead as of that moment, regardless of it not actually being able to take credit of the scenario until it reaches level 7. As for not having the character on hand, I would probably consult the even coordinator on that one. If the player is local, someone else could make sure they had recorded it later on. if the player wasnt local, If no one knew who it was or where they played, I'd probably be a bit more hesitant to allow them to just take case of it when they get home.
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Any GM that forces a pregen death to apply to an active PC, rather than letting the player create a new dead character in a coffin, is violating the "Don't be a jerk" rule.
You sign the sheet at the beginning of the scenario, not the end. However, I was not aware of this rule Mike made. I am going to attempt to get a clarification on this if I can. :/
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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No GM forces a player to choose an active PC, Fromper. It's always legal to assign the session to a never-played character. The question is when does the player need to make that decision?
There are many GMs who hold the position that if you want the benefit to apply to your 2nd-level ranger, then the consequences apply to the ranger, as well. And likewise, they object to players deciding which active PC gets the Chronicle after they see the boons and goodies. So, I've seen, GMs asking people to make a decision about all that when the tracking sheet goes around at the beginning of a session.
--//--
One other note, and I'm picking on Fromper here because he's convenient, rather than any worse than anybody else.
People are pretty free about flinging around the insulting term "jerk". Particularly on this messageboard, "jerk" is entirely derogatory.
Most of the people -- on either side of the GM screen, are doing their best to have fun, make sure other people have fun, and make sure they're following the rules. Somebody following a PFS rule that you don't like, isn't a jerk. Somebody sitting at the table with a character you think is too powerful for the scenario, isn't being a jerk. A GM who plays dangerous foes to the best of her ability, within the restrictions of the NPC's resources and information, is a tough GM, not a jerk. Somebody who isn't following a rule because he didn't understand it, or because it's the custom at his home FLGS to do things differently, he's not being a jerk.
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I was under the impression that in a case like this whether the character lived or died the cronicle sheet couldn't be applied until the character reached the approprate level, so following that logic if you applied a cronicle sheet from a teir 3-5 to a new character she wouldn't die until reaching 3rd level, at which point you would have enough gold and pp for basically nothing. now if the pregen was level one, our new character is dead out of the gate. Am I incorrect?
Chronicle sheets are applied to a character when it reaches the level of the pregen you used, not the Tier of the scenario you played. There are no 3rd level pregens, so in this case you couldn't apply it until he/she reached level 4 (or obviously to a fresh character, as already stated).
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All right, let's ask a different question.
If a player is using a pre-gen, many GMs require her to designate which character will receive the credit for the game, before the session begins. In thsoe cases, a pre-gen's 7th-level death might impact an active character.
Does that character immediately die, or can she live till 7th-level? If the PC has enough prestige, but doesn't have the character at hand, can she pay for her raise dead at the beginning of her next session?
You must resolve the death immediately for that character. If that character cannot resolve the death or other affliction at the table, then their active character would be considered dead.
You cannot play the active character with this “death” hanging over their head, up to the point they would “die” and then resolve it.
This is why, retroactively, you are allowed to choose to assign it to a brand new character instead.
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Chronicle sheets are applied to a character when it reaches the level of the pregen you used, not the Tier of the scenario you played. There are no 3rd level pregens, so in this case you couldn't apply it until he/she reached level 4 (or obviously to a fresh character, as already stated).
If the pregen dies, the character dies immediately, unless they can afford to be brought back to life, regardless of the characters level compard to the pregens level.
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No GM forces a player to choose an active PC, Fromper. It's always legal to assign the session to a never-played character. The question is when does the player need to make that decision?
There are many GMs who hold the position that if you want the benefit to apply to your 2nd-level ranger, then the consequences apply to the ranger, as well. And likewise, they object to players deciding which active PC gets the Chronicle after they see the boons and goodies. So, I've seen, GMs asking people to make a decision about all that when the tracking sheet goes around at the beginning of a session.
Generally, yes, the player must choose which character the credit for playing a scenario is going to be applied to before playing the game. At least around here, that's SOP.
However, in the FAQ, Mike has given players an option, if they're playing a pregen that was going to be applied to a lower level character, when the pregen dies.
If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?
Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.
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No GM forces a player to choose an active PC, Fromper. It's always legal to assign the session to a never-played character. The question is when does the player need to make that decision?
There are many GMs who hold the position that if you want the benefit to apply to your 2nd-level ranger, then the consequences apply to the ranger, as well. And likewise, they object to players deciding which active PC gets the Chronicle after they see the boons and goodies. So, I've seen, GMs asking people to make a decision about all that when the tracking sheet goes around at the beginning of a session.
Yes, you pick which active character you want it to apply to prior to the game. But if you'd rather not resolve a death, you have the option to change it to a new never played before 1st level character. That new character would be a dead character.
You don't get to change which active character it applies to after the scenario, however.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold"
So, it sounds like the pre-gen, or the PC, does not get the gold from the Chronicle sheet to return to life. (That's not the way I've been playing it; I've been allowing PCs to get the gold and use that for a raise dead.)
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"Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold"
So, it sounds like the pre-gen, or the PC, does not get the gold from the Chronicle sheet to return to life. (That's not the way I've been playing it; I've been allowing PCs to get the gold and use that for a raise dead.)
Your two thoughts seem to be in conflict.
Characters are not considered to be “not returning to the living” until they actually don’t return to the living.
If the death could still be resolved, they could still get the gold from the scenario, presumably, to resolve the death.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold."
Andrew, let's say I've got a dead PC at the end of an adventure. If the character had 15 Prestige, does she get a Chronicle sheet with 1 or 2 PP that would allow her to use prestige to get a raise dead?
I've been saying yes, because I hadn't read the FAQ. Reading that, I'm sure that I've been doing it wrong. The PC needs to be able to get herself raised, and then she gets the Chronicle sheet.
Do you think it means, "Characters who arrive back in the Lodge dead still get a Chronicle sheet with full gold, full prestige, etc. If they can't use it to bring themselves back, then the GM takes the Chronicle sheet and revises it to 0, 0 and 0"? Because that's not the way it reads at all. Besides which, it makes no sense. If a character is dead and unable to fix that, who cares whether they get a post-mortem experience point?
This matters with something like the boon for "Race for the Runecarved Key".
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Chris, I think you are doing things convoluted here or something?
You are assuming you are completely filling out a chronicle sheet, and then the player does what they need to do to resolve the death. Whether that be spend the PP or Gold, sell pregen equipment, etc.
But that’s not the case (at least when playing a pregen is concerned).
You ask them how they would like to resolve the death, THEN fill out the chronicle appropriately.
As to whether the dead pregen that would be applied later to an active character would get to spend PP and/or Gold earned in the scenario, that seems alien to me that they’d get to spend something they wouldn’t get until they’d adventured several times. Then again, the death has to apply immediately, so I wouldn’t at all be upset if the gold and/or PP could also be used (and until clarified or instructed otherwise, that’s how I’d do it.)
you have to read the entire rule and FAQ, not just a single sentence of it. The context of that sentence would lead me to easily conclude that you ONLY give a chronicle of 0, 0, 0 to a character that could not resolve the death.
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First, I am sorry the PreGen died. On the bright side, it was not your character. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but; the result depends on whether or not your character was raised from the dead. If you were raised, you get Xp, Gold, Prestige, etc. from completing the scenario. If you were NOT raised, you get nothing at all (except it was not your character that died).
"PCs who do not return to the realm of the living receive no XP, 0 Prestige Points, 0 gp, and no boons for the scenario in which they died." - Guide to Organized Play, page 24.
"PCs who die during a scenario and are raised receive full XP for that scenario, so long as they completed at least three encounters." - Guide to Organized Play, page 24.
From your description, I think you are of the former, not latter. Your chronicle sheet should award 0 Gold, 0 XP, 0 Items, 0 Boons
Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Frederick
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Let me start off this diatribe with a reference to 3 different rules from the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (GtPSOP):
1) When playing your own character, all conditions (including death) not resolved within the scenario or module carry beyond the end of the adventure. Pg. 23.
2) If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you may apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. Equipment listed on the pregenerated character sheet may only be sold to clear conditions, such as death, during the play of the module and any remaining gold does not carry over at the end of the module. Pg. 29
3) A player who uses a pregenerated character must apply the Chronicle sheet to a newly created 1st-level character or hold the Chronicle sheet until his character reaches the level of the pregenerated character. Pg. 29
What does this all mean? 1) You should (during games in which I DM, a player shall) designate the character that the Chronicle is going to be applied to (i.e. either the pre-gen or a character that is not the level of the pre-gen and is not legal for the current Mod/Scenario). 2) All conditions acquired during the Mod/Scenario are included in this Chronicle Sheet and shall be resolved, as if your actual Character had played the mod. 3) If the pre-gen died, then the death condition is applied to the Chronicle Sheet and shall be resolved. Two options exist at this point in accordance with #3 (Pg. 29 GtPSOP), you can apply the Chronicle to a newly created 1st Level character who immediately gains the death condition and, for all purposes, is permanently dead because said 1st level character does not have the resources to be raised. Or, you can apply the Chronicle to a designated character who will gain the death condition when they reach the level of the pre-gen and receive the Chronicle Sheet. At that point, a raise dead (or equivalent) must be paid for (with either gold or PP) to eliminate said condition. For example, a player makes use of a 4th level pre-gen who dies in the Midnight Mirror Sanctioned Module. Pretty much the only option is to apply the Chronicle sheet to a designated character of 1st or 2nd level character (since a 3rd+ level character would have had to play in the mod since they were legal). When the 1st or 2nd level character reaches 4th level (the level of the pre-gen), said character would have to "pay" for a raise dead and would note so on the Chronicle sheet. Hopefully, this clears things up.
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Or, you can apply the Chronicle to a designated character who will gain the death condition when they reach the level of the pre-gen and receive the Chronicle Sheet. At that point, a raise dead (or equivalent) must be paid for (with either gold or PP) to eliminate said condition. For example, a player makes use of a 4th level pre-gen who dies in the Midnight Mirror Sanctioned Module. Pretty much the only option is to apply the Chronicle sheet to a designated character of 1st or 2nd level character (since a 3rd+ level character would have had to play in the mod since they were legal). When the 1st or 2nd level character reaches 4th level (the level of the pre-gen), said character would have to "pay" for a raise dead and would note so on the Chronicle sheet. Hopefully, this clears things up.
This is not correct, If for some odd reason you decide to put the credit to existing character and you can't get a raise dead before the scenarios is done, that character is reported as dead, and is gone. You don't wait to become dead when the PC reaches the level of the pregen it happens right away.
Edit: This misconception continually pops up because when the rule was originally proposed by Mike he proposed to do it this way, but when the rule became live in the Guide he took that part out (Waiting until your PC reached the level of the pregen to get a raise dead), and the actual rule that went into the guide any pc that gets the credit for a pregen death is reported as dead.
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Or, you can apply the Chronicle to a designated character who will gain the death condition when they reach the level of the pre-gen and receive the Chronicle Sheet. At that point, a raise dead (or equivalent) must be paid for (with either gold or PP) to eliminate said condition. For example, a player makes use of a 4th level pre-gen who dies in the Midnight Mirror Sanctioned Module. Pretty much the only option is to apply the Chronicle sheet to a designated character of 1st or 2nd level character (since a 3rd+ level character would have had to play in the mod since they were legal). When the 1st or 2nd level character reaches 4th level (the level of the pre-gen), said character would have to "pay" for a raise dead and would note so on the Chronicle sheet. Hopefully, this clears things up.This is not correct, If for some odd reason you decide to put the credit to existing character and you can't get a raise dead before the scenarios is done, that character is reported as dead, and is gone. You don't wait to become dead when the PC reaches the level of the pregen it happens right away.
Edit: This misconception continually pops up because when the rule was originally proposed by Mike he proposed to do it this way, but when the rule became live in the Guide he took that part out (Waiting until your PC reached the level of the pregen to get a raise dead), and the actual rule that went into the guide any pc that gets the credit for a pregen death is reported as dead.
Which is too bad. This is a better way to run it, IMO, than to let the Doornails McDeadguy pile up.
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Ok, so everyone should have a PFS character named "Doornail" just to apply all of those pregen chronicles to...I would imagine you would need a new "Doornail" every time your pregen died, though. You shouldn't be able to apply more than one death to any character. I'd hope...?
I can't see why you'd waste even one number on Doornail, much less multiple ones...
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If a pregen dies in PFS, does the reporting system even hear it?
(Not at our shop)
It is supposed to, if your pregen dies for a player that is a PFS player you are supposed to report the PC as dead, per the guide.
1 Reason for this is if you play with a Pregen and your Pregen dies just like any scenario you play you can't play it again for credit. By reporting it this will allow it to flag if the Player tries to play it again at another location (He forgot or purposely did not tell the GM) so the GM when he reports the game will see he the players already played it and can't get credit.
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They should, Dennis.
And BNW, there needs to be a tracking number so "the system" knows that the player shouldn't receive credit for replaying that scenario with a different PC.
ahhh.. that makes sense for one... Any reason we'd Need the entire Doornail clan?
I mean you SHOULDN"T need that many timmy's...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Frederick
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Actually, the text on Pg. 23 states, "When playing YOUR OWN character (I.e. not a pre-gen) all conditions (including death) not resolved within the scenario or module carry beyond the end of the adventure."
Thus the confusion pertaining to a pre-gen remains as it is clearly not YOUR OWN character. This does not clear up this conundrum. The question still remains, Shall a pre-gen resolve death at the time and date of play or does the player resolve the death upon the point of applying the chronicle to THEIR OWN character?
The only person that can resolve this issue is Mr. Brock. And the guide clearly needs to be changed to make all this more clear.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Personally, I think if you're playing a first-level pregen (as in you're a walk-up at a con or something like that) and that pregen dies, you should still get credit applied to a new character for that scenario. Otherwise we're punishing a brand new player for not knowing the rules and letting a pregen die. Even higher-level pregens can be total newbie walkups. Maybe this would only work if you're assigning a brand new PFS number to a new player, but they shouldn't miss out on credit just because the pregen died. That's my two cents.
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I've been saying yes, because I hadn't read the FAQ. Reading that, I'm sure that I've been doing it wrong. The PC needs to be able to get herself raised, and then she gets the Chronicle sheet.
I think you have been doing it right. If you have 15 PP and would get 1 from the chronicle, you can use the one on the chronicle as the final PP you need to afford a Raise.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Seth, can you cite that in the rules?
As noted, a plain reading of the FAQ contradicts that: PCs fix their death status, and only then get a Chronicle. If they can't get their death fixed, then the Chronicle reads 0 PP, so they don't receive that additional 16th prestige point.
I would very much like to be wrong about this, but the FAQ document seems clear. If you can show me a passage in the rules that lets the PCs use incoming resources to come back from the dead, I'd appreciate it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Gold is a little bit of a different question, Fromper: the party collects treasure as they move through the adventure. If a party wanted to, they could sell off the stuff they found in Act 1, buy equipment with the funds, and continue on. Using it to pay for an PC to cast raise dead seems consistent with that.
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Nothing to support my stance on it, no, but I believe the wording of the FAQ is ambiguous as to when you would mark the character with a 0 in XP, Fame, and Gold.
I believe you get access to all of the above for purposes of trying to raise yourself (not that exp would help with that), and if that helps you, then you can use it. If you cant use anything from the mission you just played, I think that is very unfair to the player involved.
If nothing else, I still think this needs to be cleared up. I'm attempting to get an official clarification. Hopefully Mike, Mark, or John will see this and chime in sometime soon. :)
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Gold is a little bit of a different question, Fromper: the party collects treasure as they move through the adventure. If a party wanted to, they could sell off the stuff they found in Act 1, buy equipment with the funds, and continue on. Using it to pay for an PC to cast raise dead seems consistent with that.
This was more or less how I am understanding it, but I dont see how or why Fame or PP should be treated differently from Gold when determining if a character has enough to be Raised. If the job was completed, regardless of the character dying to get it done, they should enjoy the benefits of the fame (and prestige) they have earned for doing that job.
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Seth, can you cite that in the rules?
As noted, a plain reading of the FAQ contradicts that: PCs fix their death status, and only then get a Chronicle. If they can't get their death fixed, then the Chronicle reads 0 PP, so they don't receive that additional 16th prestige point.
I would very much like to be wrong about this, but the FAQ document seems clear. If you can show me a passage in the rules that lets the PCs use incoming resources to come back from the dead, I'd appreciate it.
Just because the Chronicle isn't marked, doesn't mean the PP isn't there.
I think the disconnect, is you are assuming that one must have it marked on the chronicle to be able to use it, and if you aren't filling out the chronicle until death is resolved, then the PP can't be used.
However, the Pregen play being reported on an existing character is a unique situation, that requires a unique set of rules.
Most of the time if you are playing a pregen of high level like this, you don't have a character that can afford a raise dead or barely so, and perhaps not unless they get that 1 or 2 PP from that scenario.
Technically this isn't any different from a standard situation where I play my character and he dies, and I need the scenario's PP to have 16 for the raise dead.
The problem is, your order of events is that the chronicle sheet is filled out prior to resolution.
Where resolution should be done prior to filling out the chronicle sheet.
However, just because the chronicle sheet isn't filled out yet, doesn't mean PP hasn't been earned.
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Actually, the text on Pg. 23 states, "When playing YOUR OWN character (I.e. not a pre-gen) all conditions (including death) not resolved within the scenario or module carry beyond the end of the adventure."
Thus the confusion pertaining to a pre-gen remains as it is clearly not YOUR OWN character. This does not clear up this conundrum. The question still remains, Shall a pre-gen resolve death at the time and date of play or does the player resolve the death upon the point of applying the chronicle to THEIR OWN character?
The only person that can resolve this issue is Mr. Brock. And the guide clearly needs to be changed to make all this more clear.
Kurt, this has been cleared up in the FAQ...
If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?
Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.
So your PC is immediately reported as dead weather it is a new pc or a played PC that you were planning to hold the credit for. There is no waiting to report the death, it happens immediately.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This was more or less how I am understanding it, but I dont see how or why Fame or PP should be treated differently from Gold when determining if a character has enough to be Raised. If the job was completed, regardless of the character dying to get it done, they should enjoy the benefits of the fame (and prestige) they have earned for doing that job.
Seth, let's say my PC has only 1 PP. In the middle of a scenario in Absalom (say, God's Market Gamble) I complete my faction mission. Do you think the campaign rules allow me to go to my faction leader and spend 2PP on an item before the next encounter?
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Seth, let's say my PC has only 1 PP. In the middle of a scenario in Absalom (say, God's Market Gamble) I complete my faction mission. Do you think the campaign rules allow me to go to my faction leader and spend 2PP on an item before the next encounter?
This was more or less how I am understanding it, but I dont see how or why Fame or PP should be treated differently from Gold when determining if a character has enough to be Raised. If the job was completed, regardless of the character dying to get it done, they should enjoy the benefits of the fame (and prestige) they have earned for doing that job.
Yes.