The RAW on page 136 of the Ultimate Combat says:
It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm.Based on this, it will take two, full-round actions to reload it. Even with the Musket Master abilities to treat it as a one-handed firearm, that's two-standard actions, and with rapid reload, it takes two-move actions to reload both barrels.
Move action + Move Action = full round's worth of actions.
Also, according to page 135 of UM:
Capacity: A firearm’s capacity is the number of shots it can hold at one time. When making a full-attack action, you may fire a firearm as many times in a round as you have attacks, up to this limit, unless you can reload the weapon as a swift or free action while making a fullattack action. In the case of early firearms, capacity often
indicates the number of barrels a firearm has. In the case of advanced firearms, it typically indicates the number of chambers the weapon has.Simply put, regardless of how many attacks you have - based on your level - you could not feasibly have twelve+ attacks a round with your musket because you can only get one swift action a round.
So the issue that this thread seems to be about is already fine as written. If I have a double-barreled musket, I can have up to two attacks a round, if my BAB allows it OR I can fire both at the same and taking a -4 to both attacks.
The only way for there to be more than two attacks with any firarm in a full-round attack (or 4 with two, double-barreled pistols) is to wield a revolver which has a capacity of 6, and could be dual wielded to fire a total of nine, with the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat + haste at level 20.
You forgot about alchemical cartridges further reducing reload time.
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The RAW on page 136 of the Ultimate Combat says:
It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm.Based on this, it will take two, full-round actions to reload it. Even with the Musket Master abilities to treat it as a one-handed firearm, that's two-standard actions, and with rapid reload, it takes two-move actions to reload both barrels.
Move action + Move Action = full round's worth of actions.
****
Nate, you haven't read the whole section on firearms. Thanks for trying to participate though.
This little section on alchemical cartridges " Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)", and this little item Paper Cartridge, allows anyone who can reload a two-handed firearm as a one-hander to reload it as a free action. Obviously one-handed firearms are already capable of being reloaded this way.
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There is no confusion.
Gunslingers using double-barreled weapons do have some negatives to hit, but they also target Touch AC, one of the few defenses that is actually more likely to scale down in encounters as you level up. Gunslingers are well balanced to about level 5. At the point, the possibility of misfires starts decreasing rapidly, and the attack potential of a gunslinger using a double-barreled firearm begins to scale entirely out of porportion with all other classes, including gunslingers who didn't opt for double barreled weapons.
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Case in point, the below build which was posted earlier in the thread has an average damage of 24 per shot, and a fifty percent chance of rolling a crit in a given round. That translates out to about 228 damage a round, and this is just a Musket build, not even a dual-wielding Pistolero. I know someone is just waiting in the wings to make a comment about how a barbarian can do more... But double barreled weapons don't even scale to the base class. The character below is taking full negatives for Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, firing both barrels simultaneously and still has a 50% chance or better to hit with his worst attacks against almost every CR 12 monster as a level 12 GS.:
Elf Gunslinger (Musket Master) 12
STR 10 DEX 25 CON 8 INT 12 WIS 16 CHA 10
Fort 10 REF 18 Will 10
AC 32 Touch 23 Flat-Foot 22
Initiative +11 (7 Dex, +2 GS Init. deed, +2 Fleet-Footed alt race trait)
HP 76 (64 by PFS gen, +12 favored class)
60 Skill Points
Full Attack Routine: 11/11/11/11/6/6/1/1 for 1d12+16 damage a hit dealing B&P damage, targeting touch AC, no misfire chance.
Can make up to 7 (see 14 in actuallity) Attacks of Opportunity a round, creatures provoke within 15 feet.
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Reload (Muskets)*
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot*
Deadly Aim
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Focus (Double-Barreled Musket)*
Clustered Shots
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Gear: +1 Greater Reliable Double-Barreled Musket, Celestial Armor, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, Ring of Protection +3, 32,500 gold left over for extras
I'm sure someone could make a better character with a little time, but there's kind of a baseline.
You've got a character with 60 skill points, so nearly twice what a same level fighter will have, 8 attacks a round with the potential for up to 7 more (10 a round plus AoO's with Haste). He can spend Grit to inflict 7 points of Bleed damage on an attack, disarm with a ranged attack, cause Confusion, knock a target prone on a hit, etc.
Generally I'd say this build is fairly well balanced, but things just don't hold up given the high number of attacks and large critical, all targeting touch AC. I could have gone Dwarf and used their special alternate favored class ability to bring the misfire rate down and use standard Reliable to make it 0, allowing me to use a better enhancement on the gun...
**EDIT** Apparently there's some dispute over whether you need to take Rapid Reload a second time with a Musket Master. If it is needed, take the exact same build and replace "elf" with "human". He retains the same number of skill points, actually gains more HP, and gains the bonus feat necessary.
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Ok, let’s do the math on firing two pistols at once.
You’re saying Doc Holiday, a 16th level gunfighter with two double barreled pistols and weapon cords can:
(assuming feats: quick draw, two weapon fighting tree, rapid reload, rapid shot, a 16 BAB, Dex bonus of +8 and doing his iterative attacks in order as required)
Draw left pistol + fire both barrels + reload + drop = free + attack + free + free
Draw right pistol + fire both barrels + reload + fire + reload + drop = free + attack + free + attack + free +free
Retrieve left pistol using weapon cord + fire + reload + fire + reload = Swift + attack + free + attack + free
He has run out of time after firing three times with his left hand and two with his right and he has a loaded pistol in his left hand and an empty pistol dangling on a weapon cord from his right. So with a -8 to hit from double barrels, two weapon fighting and rapid shot you get:
+16, +16, +16, +11, +11 [edited for rapid shot]
Deadly aim drops that to:
+11, +11, +11, +6, +6 (good luck with that)[edited for rapid shot]
To get more attacks off, you need a third limb that is capable of reloading a pistol.
Now the math for double barrels has been wrong on all posts I’ve read. Most assume you double everything on a double barrel shot. With a double barreled pistol, ”both are shot at once” so it is one shot using both barrels. Bonuses due to magic, feats, precision etc. are not multiplied. So a two barreled pistol with the weapon specialization and deadly aim feat, you get:
2d8+2+10= 2d8+12 (correct)
Not
2*(1d8+2+10)=2d8+24 (incorrect)
Nor
1d8+2+10 and 1d8+2+10 (ie two shots is also incorrect)
You are better off with rapid shot + deadly aim and skip all the TWF nonsense.
EDIT:
Ssalarn,
The second barrel on your musket gives you a +1d12 damage to your attack at a -4 to hit. Not an extra attack.
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Except that a Pistolero would already be getting Rapid Reload (double barrel pistols) anyway because regular pistols are significantly worse in comparison and as stated here:
"Rapid Reloader:
At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat."Musket Masters get Rapid Reload (MUSKETS). One can reasonably argue that this applies to ANY musket, single barreled, double barreled, and axe. It can be a moot point really.
No, according to the way RAW is stated, it would apply to Muskets. Not double-barreled muskets, not axe muskets, just muskets.
Kaleb, doesn't having a glove of storing fix that third hand problem?
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Ravingdork,
Unless otherwise stated, it is a standard action to "activate a magic item other than a potion or oil". so, to use a glove of storing to shrink an item is a standard action. "On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears." Enlarging an item is a free action however.
I did find an error in my sequence however, it should be:
left draw, shoot (both barrels), drop (free, attack, free)
right draw, shoot, reload, ((haste) shoot, reload), shoot, reload, drop (free, attack, free, attack, free, attack, free)
left draw, shoot, reload, draw, shoot, reload (swift, attack, free, attack, free)
so for 6 attacks, dealing 2d8+bonuses:
+16,+16,+16,+11,+11,+6
Hasted for 7 attacks:
+17,+17,+17,+17,+12,+12,+7
(subtract 5 for deadly aim)
If you only use a barrel at a time, a double barreled pistol is more effective.
draw left, fire, fire (rapid shot), reload,(fire haste shot and reload) drop (free, attack, attack, free,(attack, free) free)
draw right, fire, fire, reload,
draw left, fire, fire,
fire right
Doc has one bullet left in his right gun but he did get a full attack off. And he can drop one pistol and reload to prepare for snap shots.
+20,+20,+20,+15,+15,+10+10,+5
Hasted:
+21,+21,+21,+21,+16,+16,+11,+11,+6
in the first case, with weapon spec and deadly aim, you get average damage (2d8+12)*6=126 if everything hits. In the second case, average damage is (1d8+12)*8=132 and the first 6 shots are at a +4 over double barrel shooting. But you can only do this every other round.
Kaleb, the glove of storing specifically states that storing or retrieving the item is a free action.
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Ravingdork, You're right, I missed that, stopped reading too soon.
However, I digressed from my original point which is that extra barrels do not give extra attacks. At best you can fire as many shots as you could throwing shuriken with TWF tree and rapid shot. Also double barreled guns are treated as a double weapon for masterwork and magic upgrades. (600gp for masterwork, 4000 for +1/+1) Unless there is something that says different.
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I did find an error in my sequence however, it should be:
left draw, shoot (both barrels), drop (free, attack, free)
right draw, shoot, reload, ((haste) shoot, reload), shoot, reload, drop (free, attack, free, attack, free, attack, free)
left draw, shoot, reload, draw, shoot, reload (swift, attack, free, attack, free)
I believe the attack sequence should be as follows with weapon cords, TWF, haste, and quick draw.
Starting [haste included] (all guns holstered/slung and on weapon chords)
Round one:
1.) Draw Primary (Free)
2.) Fire both barrels of Primary and use Rapid shot (First primary attack used)[3 attack rolls]
3.) Reload Primary (Free)
4.) Fire both barrels of Primary from Haste (Haste attack used)[2 attack rolls]
5.) Reload Primary (Free)
6.) Fire both barrels of Primary (First primary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
7.) Reload Primary (Free)
8.) Fire both barrels of Primary (Second primary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
9.) Reload Primary (Free)
10.) Fire both barrels of Primary (Third and final primary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
11.) Reload Primary (Free)
12.) Drop Primary (Free)
13.) Draw Secondary (Free)
14.) Fire both barrels of Secondary (First Secondary attack used)[2 attack rolls]
15.) Reload Secondary (Free)
16.) Fire both barrels of Secondary (First Secondary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
17.) Reload Secondary (Free)
18.) Fire both barrels of Secondary (Second Secondary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
19.) Reload Secondary (Free)
Total attacks in round: 17
Actions used: Full attack, Lots of free
Round 2:
Starting: one gun in hand loaded, one gun on weapon cord loaded.
[gun that was secondary is now primary as this is a new round]
1.) Fire both barrels of Primary and use Rapid shot (First primary attack used)[3 attack rolls]
2.) Reload Primary (Free)
3.) Fire both barrels of Primary from Haste (Haste attack used)[2 attack rolls]
4.) Reload Primary (Free)
5.) Fire both barrels of Primary (First primary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
6.) Reload Primary (Free)
7.) Fire both barrels of Primary (Second primary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
8.) Reload Primary (Free)
9.) Fire both barrels of Primary (Third and final primary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
10.) Reload Primary (Free)
11.) Drop Primary (Free)
12.) Weapon cord Secondary (Swift)
13.) Fire both barrels of Secondary (First Secondary attack used)[2 attack rolls]
14.) Reload Secondary (Free)
15.) Fire both barrels of Secondary (First Secondary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
16.) Reload Secondary (Free)
17.) Fire both barrels of Secondary (Second Secondary iterative attack used)[2 attack rolls]
18.) Reload Secondary (Free)
Total attacks taken: 17
Actions used: Full attack, Swift, Lots of free
Repeat adnauseum.
Now this does cost 102 gp per round of normal ammo, however it is still crazy.
There is a post by SKR I believe around here that shows you can take all of your primary and then all of your secondary which is what makes this possible.
You do not have to take primary secondary primary secondary.
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MacGurcules,
"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first."
"Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot."
You only get as many actions as feats and magic give you. In this case, 4 attacks for a high BAB, 3 for TWF feat tree, 1 for Rapid shot and 1 for Haste effects. Whether you pull 1 trigger or 2, you are still using 1 attack action.
If I recall correctly, MacGurcules, the rules say you must make all of your attacks from highest base attack bonus to lowest. That means you would attack with one hand then the other, then repeat.
I suppose you could interpret it as highest to lowest with one hand, then highest to lowest with the other, though.
If you are a musket master and have the Rapid Reload feat, a glove of storing, and alchemical cartridges, you should be able to attack as often as you want, as though you were firing a bow. The glove of storing would also allow you to always have one hand free for reloading as well, allowing you to duel-wield a pair of double-barreled muskets to insane effect.
MacGurcules,
"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.""Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot."
You only get as many actions as feats and magic give you. In this case, 4 attacks for a high BAB, 3 for TWF feat tree, 1 for Rapid shot and 1 for Haste effects. Whether you pull 1 trigger or 2, you are still using 1 attack action.
Also double barreled pistol is just like a scorching ray or rapid shot it is multiple attack rolls from the same source.
Otherwise why include the bolded section of your quote?
RAW is clear.
the 17 attack sequence works.
I don't like it but it works.
P.S. At level 16 with that sequence a base 14 + 2 racial +4 level +4 stat booster pistolero can put out >500 DPR against any target within up close and deadly range and also with 20 or less Touch AC.
It climbs to >700 at Touch 14...
IMO this is incredibly "Lance Pierces the Heavens" funny.
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***However, I digressed from my original point which is that extra barrels do not give extra attacks. At best you can fire as many shots as you could throwing shuriken with TWF tree and rapid shot. ***
As others have already pointed out, you have been wrong on nearly every front here Kaleb. The wording for double barreled weapons is clear that each barrel is its own separate attack, but you have the ability to fire both barrels with a single attack (making a separate attack roll for each shot) with the -4 penalty.
Furthermore, the weapon cords ridiculousness is also perfectly valid by RAW for making 17-19 attacks a round at levels 16+. As others have linked in, it is perfectly valid to make all of your attacks with your main hand, and then all of your attacks with your off-hand.Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing that wasn't already covered earlier in the thread.
Back to the point;
Double-barreled weapons double the potential number of attacks. For a weapon that targets a defense that is actually more likely to become lower at higher levels as the party encounters Large+ creatures, the -4 penalty doesn't serve as much of a detriment past about level 5 or so. Several people have made and/or agreed to the suggestion that limiting the reload of the secondary barrel in some way might serve to help bring double-barreled weapon users back in line with not only other classes, but the base gunslinger class as well.
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Read what SKR wrote again or I will quote his post for you:
"Ssalarn wrote:
Sean, to clarify, Are you saying that an attack sequence of 11M/11Off/6M/6Off/1M is actually valid?
There's nothing in the rules that says "you have to take all your main hand attacks, then all your offhand attacks," so yes, that's a valid attack sequence."
In fact, where in the rules do you find something that counters CRBpg187 where it states:
"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack
bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in
order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two
weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you
are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part
of the weapon first."
So, Doc from my previous post has the following sequence (BAB only, ignoring reload issues)
+16,+16,+16,+16 (left, rapid, haste, right - in any order)
followed by
+11,+11 (right, left or left, right)
then
+6,+6 (left, right or right, left)
and finally
+1 (either hand)
As SKR and the core rulebook said attacks go from high to low. If you disagree, show the citation, don't just say "RAW".
Scorching ray:
Scorching ray states "Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Double barrel pistols "If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object"
Since Scorching rays can be fired at seperate targets and double barreled pistols cannot, the two are not comparable.
Manyshot:
A comparison has been drawn between the DBP and Manyshot. Although manyshot says bows specifically I would allow a player at my table to apply the feat to double barreled guns. However, owning a double barreled gun does not give you the feat. Nor does it allow you to use the feat more than once per round.
I reiterate, firing both barrels simultaneously adds 1 die damage.
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*** Blah blah blah***I reiterate, firing both barrels simultaneously adds 1 die damage.
First off: Here's the FAQ on Two Weapon Fighting:
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
Also in that same thread SKR states: "The "do them in order highest to lowest" rule only applies to attacks with that hand. In other words, if you're +11/+6/+1, you have to do +11 before you do +6, and have to do +6 before you do +1."
You can clearly see that an attack sequence of all attacks with main and then all with off is legal.
I also don't know how to make it any more clear to you that you're just plain wrong about how double barreled firearms work.
"Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot"
Your insistence that firing both only adds a d12 to one attack is something that you've made up all on your own and is not supported anywhere in the rules, and in fact contradicts the text right in the weapon description.
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Ssalarn,
I read SKR's entire post, it says nothing about the order in which you take your attacks only what attacks are available to you.
point 2
In pathfinder we have 5 types of actions:
free
swift
move
standard
full round
attack
CRB187 "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Chapter 3), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional
attacks."
The number of attack actions you get is determined by your BAB, your feats, and any magical affects you have on you.
Firing two bullets simultaneously is one action therefore it is one attack.
1 action = 1 attack
1 die roll at -4 with +1 die damage.
We had this arguement back in Living Arcanis when they introduced double barreled muskets. And yes, the barrels had to be magicked independently. The master thrower in 3.0 had the same arguement because he could throw two pieces of ammunition at once.
Maybe we need to calrify the definitions to expidite the arguement. (dictionary.com)
shot
1 [shot] Show IPA noun, plural shots or for 6, 8, shot; verb, shot·ted, shot·ting. noun
1. a discharge of a firearm, bow, etc.
2. the range of or the distance traveled by a missile in its flight.
3. an aimed discharge of a missile.
4. an attempt to hit a target with a missile.
5. an act or instance of shooting a firearm, bow, etc.
at·tack
[uh-tak] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.
2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.
3.to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.
4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement.
5. to try to destroy, especially with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.
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Blatant thread-jacking
Please stop trolling this thread, as that's all I can imagine you are doing at this point. I quoted for you right where SKR states " The "do them in order highest to lowest" rule only applies to attacks with that hand", as well as the FAQ where he quotes an attack sequence of main/main/off.
Double Barreled weapons specifically state that you can fire both barrels with a single action making two attack rolls. It's been quoted for you half a dozen times already. My BAB gives me extra attacks, TWF gives me extra attacks, Haste gives me an extra attack, and firing a double barreled weapon can give me an extra attack on each shot, with very specific qualifiers. I don't care about what you concluded in Living Arcanis, it doesn't apply here. What applies is the wording of the weapons that make it clear that you are getting two attacks with a single action.Your snide dictionary insertions are not only you being a jerk, they're in no way pertinent to the conversation. It would be nice if instead of having to constantly argue your misinformation the rest of us could back to the topic at hand.
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*** Blah blah blah***I reiterate, firing both barrels simultaneously adds 1 die damage.First off: Here's the FAQ on Two Weapon Fighting:
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6Also in that same thread SKR states: "The "do them in order highest to lowest" rule only applies to attacks with that hand. In other words, if you're +11/+6/+1, you have to do +11 before you do +6, and have to do +6 before you do +1."
You can clearly see that an attack sequence of all attacks with main and then all with off is legal.
I also don't know how to make it any more clear to you that you're just plain wrong about how double barreled firearms work.
"Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot"Your insistence that firing both only adds a d12 to one attack is something that you've made up all on your own and is not supported anywhere in the rules, and in fact contradicts the text right in the weapon description.
The section bolded by Ssalarn was the point I was making, and precedes the part you quoted.
It establishes that you may if you chooses take all of your main hand and then all of your off hand attacks.
The post you references adds that you may choose to take your main then off then main then off as you wish as long as you only go from highest to lowest with a particular hand.
This means that you may perform the sequence as I have outlined it.
To address your second point about double barreled pistol.
Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
This means I am sure we can all agree that a PC using a double barreled pistol may fire one barrel as an attack action, and then another barrel as a separate attack action.
Essentially you have two guns "Glued" together.
Now it does say that I can fire both barrels as one action. This is the special part about a double barreled pistol. Firing both barrels means I have two separate attacks just as if I had fired the barrels separately.
This is caveated in the text by saying that I gain a -4 to hit and I must target the same creature.
There is text that even implies I would not get the same amount of attacks as if I had fired the barrels separately.
In short double barreled pistol allows for doubling your attacks as long as you are willing to pay the price which is a -4 to hit, directing each pair of attacks against the same creature, and paying 6 gp per shot.
The doc below is the DPR for a lvl 16 gunslinger using 15 point buy and standard WBL.
It was just a thought exercise.
Just to let you know a fighter does around 250 DPR at level 16 with 15 PB and WBL.
A gunslinger will do the same against regular AC, and up to almost 900 DPR against touch.
Please not that as the gunslinger math is just napkin math I did not model getting half damage on Up Close and Deadly on a miss which would push these numbers even higher...
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Talk about a hair-splitting discussion!
It looks to me as though all you are really arguing about is whether you make one or two rolls (at a -4 penalty) when firing both barrels simultaneously; you still roll the same number of damage dice.
My opinion: it doesn't really matter. If it's one roll, you still add any enchantment bonus to each barrel independently; if you have only enchanted one barrel to +1 then it's possible to hit with that barrel and miss with the other one.
In the long run the expected damage is exactly the same, whether you make one or two rolls. One roll makes extremely high or low damage totals more likely - you'll either hit or miss with both barrels every time (unless the barrels are enchanted differently); two rolls tends to cluster the damage around the expected value.
Personally I'd make it two separate rolls; just because one barrel confirms a critical hit doesn't mean that the second one will do so (especially for a weapon described as 'wildly inaccurate').
But if somebody wants to insist it's just one roll I'm not going to rule against him; it doesn't make that much difference to the way the scenario plays out (unless he rolls a misfire, of course; if it's one roll then that's a double misfire. But if that's how he wants to play it ...)
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Covent,
With all due respect, a double barrel firearm doubles the amount of ammunition you put in the air, not the number of attacks you get in a round. There is a difference.
You roll 2 Attacks each at -4.
And Manyshot would only increase DPR by a fraction. It wouldn't Double it. Remember Manyshot only adds one Damage Roll Sequence on your first attack not all of them.
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Covent,
With all due respect, a double barrel firearm doubles the amount of ammunition you put in the air, not the number of attacks you get in a round. There is a difference.
Except for the fact that the weapon description says you put two attacks in the air for each pull of the trigger.
I'll go ahead and post it again for the thirtieth time, just in case someone had trouble reading it previously...."Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on "
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Covent,
With all due respect, a double barrel firearm doubles the amount of ammunition you put in the air, not the number of attacks you get in a round. There is a difference.
Please quote me RAW for this.
Because the RAW for Pistol, Double Barreled states that each barrel may be fired independently, which I can see in no way but two attacks, and then states they can be shot with the same action which does not modify the number of attacks offered by the barrels at all. It only modifies the attack roll with a -4 and the fact that both attacks must be aimed at the same target. There would be no point in saying
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object,
unless there were two attacks.
Please parse the following to explain to me why you believe this to be RAW.
Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
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Covent,
No RAW, just real world experience. Having been an avid hunter when I was younger, I know guns. When you attack a pheasent, you have a fraction of a second to aquire target, aim and pull the trigger. If you use both barrels of a double barreled shotgun, you still only aim and shoot once. (take 1d8 non leathal damage and save vs dislocated shoulder)
PRD wrote:
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object,
This differentiates DBP's from things like scorching ray which can be two attacks from 1 action.
You still get 20-90% increase in damage per hit. Nothing to sniff at.
Wow... For a Double-Barreled Shotgun to hurt you that much you must not be that experienced...
They must target the same person but you still roll 2 Attack Rolls.
Covent,
No RAW, just real world experience. Having been an avid hunter when I was younger, I know guns.
As an avid hunter for 22 years let me say that Pathfinder guns are nothing like real life. Even the advanced versions the once closest to our own still have a 5% chance or more to break every shot they may not explode but they still break.
Also I'm fairly certain though would be open to being shown evidence if I'm wrong that at no point in the history of the gun did on shot of powder equal more than a days worth of labor.
I can see the Broken quality representing a Jam. Especially since they are more representative of Civil War/Wild West Era Firearms.
Also a Hand Cannon might have done some damage to the wielder if held wrong. But that is around a 1.50 Calibre Firearm and was meant to be braced on the ground.
Covent,
No RAW, just real world experience. Having been an avid hunter when I was younger, I know guns. When you attack a pheasent, you have a fraction of a second to aquire target, aim and pull the trigger. If you use both barrels of a double barreled shotgun, you still only aim and shoot once. (take 1d8 non leathal damage and save vs dislocated shoulder)PRD wrote:
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object,This differentiates DBP's from things like scorching ray which can be two attacks from 1 action.
You still get 20-90% increase in damage per hit. Nothing to sniff at.
Ok then, please remember that this is the rules forum.
We use RAW here.
What you say would be fine in the homebrew/suggestion forum and as long as you enjoy playing that way then I am glad.
However this is in no way RAW.
By RAW the guns and rotation work exactly as I said.
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There is a thing has been brought up before and that is the cost of ammo. If you have a look at what the cost of a full round of 17 shots, which is 106gp (paper cartridge with gunsmithing), now say you have an encounter or series of encounters that goes for 5 rounds that's 530gp. How much gold is a gunslinger really going to have after paying for ammo? Not as much as a fighter or archer who can then use that extra money on items which boosts his DPR.
Also there is inherent risk in carting around so much gunpowder on you, screw up on save vs fire and suddenly you in a middle of a fireball of your own making.
Yes you have an insane DPR but it does come with an increased risk and price.
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I still have not seen any kind of clear answer to the question "Do two barrels give you an extra attack?" In the absense of a clear answer, should a player gain the maximum possible benefit or the minimum?
Assume you played a APL9 PFS module and ran into an 11th level gunslinger with two double barreled pistols, boots of speed, glove of storing, dueling pistol and dust of disappearance. He has a +18 initiative and used the dust in the surprise round. On his turn, he tears into the party for 300+ points of damage. Because he is invisible, the highest touch AC is 12-13. Rogue with Uncanny dodge dies first. TPK in round 2. When an NPC does it, is it still balanced? How many partys finish the module. How many complaints does Paizo recieve?
Give me an arguement better than "this is what I think, prove me wrong." Until then, minimal benefit should be given.
Kaleb, It has already been clarified that it is 2 Attack Rolls! This means they have a chance to miss and lose the second bullet. This means they might not get that extra damage. Ironically the way you are saying it makes it to potent with Vital Strike. And all your example gives is them their 4 attacks on their Full-Attack Actions.
That said Full-Attack would be: +11/+11/+6/+5
I still have not seen any kind of clear answer to the question "Do two barrels give you an extra attack?"
I feel like you have, in fact, but we can try again.
This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action. If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
Bold 1: You shoot them both simultaneously, which functions much like if you had shot them both separately, that is, you get two attack rolls. The only difference is that you use only a single action to do it and...
Bold 2: They both get a -4 penalty. As in, you roll twice, once for each bullet, and apply a -4 to each of them. If that doesn't help point out that they are in fact two attack rolls, I'm not sure what you want.Give me an arguement better than "this is what I think, prove me wrong."
This has been. Just now by me, and several other times throughout the thread. It really is not in dispute, like at all, besides you seeming to ignore this proof repeatedly.
There is a thing has been brought up before and that is the cost of ammo. If you have a look at what the cost of a full round of 17 shots, which is 106gp (paper cartridge with gunsmithing), now say you have an encounter or series of encounters that goes for 5 rounds that's 530gp. How much gold is a gunslinger really going to have after paying for ammo? Not as much as a fighter or archer who can then use that extra money on items which boosts his DPR.
Also there is inherent risk in carting around so much gunpowder on you, screw up on save vs fire and suddenly you in a middle of a fireball of your own making.
Yes you have an insane DPR but it does come with an increased risk and price.
A wand of abundant ammunition costs only 750gp and allows you to go through 50+ encounters without having to use up a single bullet.
This totally makes the ammo cost issue into a non-issue. Even if the gunslinger didn't invest in Use Magic Device, odds are, there's someone in the party who can.
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... And there's also the creation of the Pouch of Infinite Ammunition, which my current party has made use of. It costs a total 6000gp and lasts forever except in an anti-magic field. Sure it may not be able to be used in all games, but it follows the item creation rules and has its successes.
Where is that pouch from? Unless I have missed it, it's not in UC or UE.
If the GM is worried about how much damage the gunslinger is putting out then they should either disallow the pouch or place a limit on it.Another point brought up earlier was range. A double barrel musket only has a base range of 10' so using the distance enchantment that goes to 20'. So touch AC within 20' (without using grit) with a max range of 100' (at a -8 to hit). An archer using a composite longbow has 110' range increments without any enhancements,
So lets go with DBM with Distance/same but for DBP vs longbow (without Distance/With Distance)
Range Inc 20'/40' vs 110'/220'
Max Range 100'/200' vs 1100'/2200'
Winner: Longbow for range.
Ok now its been said that this is all for high level play (16+)
Lets look at some of the thing you be facing at that level and where you are likely to fight them. (assuming ALP 16)
APL -1
gold dragon (adult), neothelid, phoenix, white dragon (ancient) /NPC with class levels)
Aside from class leveled NPCs each one of those can fly. Each one has abilities that either limit ranged options for the slinger or can attack from outside of max range. (Neothelid just has to charge from 140' away to use 20' reach, hit with tentacle which would average just under 50% of the time, grab with said tentacle and if the slinger cant be freed within 1 round gets swallowed)
Where you are likely to face such creatures, either out in the open so range really makes impact here, or in their lairs which would be buig enough for them to fly around in so that would for areas up to 200'-400' again range problems here for the slinger. Once they move closer then you start becoming within range of being charged and then either literally or figuratively eaten alive.
The right creatures and/or class levels means that slinger cant bring her full damage to bare on the targets. and If you grapple a slinger then they are at a massive disadvantage.
TL;DR look at what the slinger weak points are and throw things at them that limits what the slinger can do, so the rest of the party may actually have something to do other then be a cheerleader squad for the slinger.
If you're really worried about ammo, you could always get a Pistol of the Infinite Sky(or if your DM is nice enough, a double barreled Pistol/Musket of the Infinite Sky).
Double firearms do sound rather powerful, but I do suppose they eat up more ammo as well and come with a downside when firing both barrels at once.
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Azaelas Fayth
You hit the nail on the head. It is exactly like vital strike.
(btw I was joking about the dislocated shoulder. Sheesh, its a game, have fun)
Moving on.
Another question, When you use two pistols, what is the penalty? I cannot find the size catagory for the pistol. I assume that since it strikes like a club in melee it is a one handed weapon. That is -4 for two weapons, -2 rapid shot, -4 two barrels for a -10.
Azaelas Fayth
You hit the nail on the head. It is exactly like vital strike.
(btw I was joking about the dislocated shoulder. Sheesh, its a game, have fun)Moving on.
Another question, When you use two pistols, what is the penalty? I cannot find the size catagory for the pistol. I assume that since it strikes like a club in melee it is a one handed weapon. That is -4 for two weapons, -2 rapid shot, -4 two barrels for a -10.
Correct, there is a huge penalty to hit for Pisterlo version.
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That made me realize that in the hands of a single weapon gunslinger, by your reckoning,
1 Double barreled pistol(1750gp) = 2 single barreled pistols(2000gp) + 1 glove of storing(10,000) + 1 weapon cord(1sp) + 1 Two Weapon Fighting feat + 1 Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat + 1 Greater Two Feapon Fighting feat (+ 1 Superior Two Weapon Fighting if such a feat existed)
And no one sees a problem with that?
I sure do. 200!