It sounds like it needs an errata. The wording is really confusing.
So yes, they can reload as a free action... Once per round. Otherwise, it's the normal reload speed for every other shot. IE: Move action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round.
I think Theomniadept was thinking of...
Lightning Reload Deed (Grit)
Spend grit to reload a single firearm with a free action.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Rapid Reload
Benefit: Spend 1 grit point to reload a [b]single barrel[/b[ of a firearm as a free action. You can only perform this deed if you are wearing light or no armor.
Lightning reload is only one barrel for one grit point and is already a free action if you use it, so for a double barrel you could reload one barrel per grit point spent (depending on how your GM feels about free actions)
At this point you are burning grit points every round to try to reload.
The easier way to do this is just go with a regular musket and use the archetype Musket Master, it lets you reload a 2 handed firearm as a 1 handed (so standard), you get rapid reload for free (move action) and then you can use alchemical cartridges (free action), that way you can get all of your attacks in a round (even using rapid shot) just like an archer
I know realism rarely happens in PF. But being able to reload a single barrel of a musket in 6 seconds is much faster than is actually possible. Having feats that allow muskets have the firing speeds of modern semi-automatic rifles, seems like it belongs in an entirely different game, altogether.
You're forgetting the fact that loading a musket with alchemical cartridges is no more difficult than loading a breach-loading modern shotgun.
Sorry, but we are talking about muskets, not a breach-loading firearm of any kind.
"Early firearms are typically matchlock, wheellock, or flintlock weapons, and require more finesse and care to use than advanced firearms. Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring a bullet and powder (or other special alchemical substances) to be shoved down the barrel before the weapon is fired. Early firearm ammunition can be loaded from a cartridge, but that cartridge is made of soft material (like paper or cloth) that is torn open so that the contents may be shoved down the barrel."
The alchemical cartridge simply has a measured load of powder and ball, that the musketeer can pour down the barrel. He still has to tamp it down with the ramrod before firing, otherwise it will not fire properly. And not to mention, he needs to pull out the ramrod before loading, and replacing it before firing, otherwise take the chance of losing a vital part of his weapon.
Even using a paper (alchemical) cartridge, the best an 18th century musketeer could hope to fire was a rate of 3 rounds per minute. http://www.history.com/videos/musket-loading-how-fast#musket-loading-how-fa st Medieval longbows could be fired at the rate of six arrows per minute, faster if the archer was not concerned with fatigue.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're forgetting the fact that loading a musket with alchemical cartridges is no more difficult than loading a breach-loading modern shotgun.Sorry, but we are talking about muskets, not a breach-loading firearm of any kind.
"Early firearms are typically matchlock, wheellock, or flintlock weapons, and require more finesse and care to use than advanced firearms. Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring a bullet and powder (or other special alchemical substances) to be shoved down the barrel before the weapon is fired. Early firearm ammunition can be loaded from a cartridge, but that cartridge is made of soft material (like paper or cloth) that is torn open so that the contents may be shoved down the barrel."
The alchemical cartridge simply has a measured load of powder and ball, that the musketeer can pour down the barrel. He still has to tamp it down with the ramrod before firing, otherwise it will not fire properly. And not to mention, he needs to pull out the ramrod before loading, and replacing it before firing, otherwise take the chance of losing a vital part of his weapon.
Even using a paper (alchemical) cartridge, the best an 18th century musketeer could hope to fire was a rate of 3 rounds per minute. http://www.history.com/videos/musket-loading-how-fast#musket-loading-how-fa st Medieval longbows could be fired at the rate of six arrows per minute, faster if the archer was not concerned with fatigue.
Yes, pathfinder gunslingers can do things real life riflemen could not, like fall 100 ft andsurvive, have a buddy who conjures fire, get stabbed with a great sword and keep fighting, or come back from the dead because their buddy prayed really hard.
So while yes there is probably an issue with the double barrel musket, there is nothing wrong with the free action reload. This isnt real life, its fantasy. So while its a stretch, who the hell cares, its a game, and should be fun. Its not particularly fun for a gunslinger player to get to shoot every other round (which could be as much as half an hour to an hour of real time sometimes) because some people demand specific cases of reality in their game. Its simply stupid and an impediment to game design. And its a big reason why the gun rules are so clunky to begin with. Paizo had to contend with people who didnt want guns in their game, people who thought guns should work like real life, and people who actually wanted to have fun with it and be roland from the dark tower or some such character.
|
I can clearly understand shooting every round consistently, but my issue is that a double barreled gun should at most add one attack at the beginning of combat due to the two barrels, then more attacks if grit points are used at higher levels. There should be an option to, say, hide and fully reload for another full round of attacks of 6 attacks. However, 10 attack should outright not exist.
Realism might be debatable but balance is still paramount.
You think double-barreled muskets are bad, you should see the dual-wielding double-barreled pistol guys. Sure they're taking -8 or more to attack, but I'm pretty sure they're up to like 19 attacks a round come 16th level.
I think the Gunslinger in general works just fine. I think the fact that the Pistolero and Musket Master archetypes are just flat out better than the base Gunslinger in every way is a bigger issue. Without those archetypes, the dual wielding double-barreled pistol guy is paying a steeper price for his tricks and isn't throwing all those extra d6's on his attacks, and the musket guy is limited to a single free action reload each round. That's the economy the class is actually balanced to, and the reason the Dead Shot deed exists.
I can clearly understand shooting every round consistently, but my issue is that a double barreled gun should at most add one attack at the beginning of combat due to the two barrels, then more attacks if grit points are used at higher levels. There should be an option to, say, hide and fully reload for another full round of attacks of 6 attacks. However, 10 attack should outright not exist.
Realism might be debatable but balance is still paramount.
I agree with that, and think the double barreled musket needs errata. Basically I think a quick fix is to make firing both barels a standard action, instead of a normal attack. So the player can fire 2 barrels as a standard action, or make all of their normal attacks with the free action reloading that rapid shot and bab allow, but not both.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
...a double barreled gun should at most add one attack...
According to what? If you've read a comment from a developer stating this as the intent, I'd love to add the link to my library so I can bring it up next time this topic comes up.
If not, then how are you deciding what a given rule/mechanic "should" do?
Just to be sure:
It is the Double Barrel Guns that bother you, or all guns?
You would prefer that Gunslingers be unable to reload any firearm as a free action?
I think What's bothering the OP is that martials can't have nice things
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
*imagines two musket masters standing next to each other firing off at the distance*
MM1: Rolls his Rapid Shot attacks separately, and resolves them separately.
MM2: Rolls his Rapid Shot attacks at once, rolls two natural 1s, gun blows up.
MM1 screams at MM2, "THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Archers get Many Shot add strength to damage and have no chance of their gun exploding. In exchange, gun users get a slightly larger damage die and touch attacks. Oh and a feat tax to use their weapon. Meh. Seems about even.
Just to be sure:
It is the Double Barrel Guns that bother you, or all guns?
You would prefer that Gunslingers be unable to reload any firearm as a free action?
I haven't looked at it but I am almost sure that there are balancing trade-offs that make archer type players as powerful as a gunslinger. I am fine with gunslinger given low-tech guns.
My problem is the wording on shooting double-barrel guns has some confusing wording that can easily be interpreted to say that Musket Masters and Pistoleros are just outright overpowered firing so much and so often that the sheer amount of attacks and damage would swiss-cheese most everything. Even at low levels; A Musket Master at level 6 could be interpreted as shooting 6 attack a round - the sword-swinger can get 5 at high levels with a Haste spell or enchanted weapon. This doesn't mean the gunslinger is broken, just that these archetypes would require some balancing; otherwise the game teeters on the paper-thin line where too many enemies would overwhelm and instantly kill, while too few would get picked off one or two in a round.
And Jiggy, I'm just using common sense. Given that the idea of Pathfinder was to balance 3.5 I'm fairly certain that nobody at Paizo intended for a class to be able to shoot so often, especially given that the Pistolero which has now been brought to my attention will just decimate enemies through firing an obscene amount of attack every round. Taking into account 5 rapid shot attacks for the archer, you're talking doubling that. TWICE. That's 20 shots. And once you hit level 13? No misfires.
EDIT: Forgot hasted weapons. That's 24 attacks in a round. That's the exact same 3.5 ridiculousness that needed to be re-done. Now, if you're essentially guaranteed to crit every round based on just rolling that many times there's just not much to fight that with other than obscenely long and convoluted battles based around NOT letting the pistolero even see you.
How are you calculating bumber of attacks.
Step by Step detail that. You might have made an error, show us.Next don't forget how expensive every shot is.
You're forgetting the fact that loading a musket with alchemical cartridges is no more difficult than loading a breach-loading modern shotgun.Sorry, but we are talking about muskets, not a breach-loading firearm of any kind.
"Early firearms are typically matchlock, wheellock, or flintlock weapons, and require more finesse and care to use than advanced firearms. Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring a bullet and powder (or other special alchemical substances) to be shoved down the barrel before the weapon is fired. Early firearm ammunition can be loaded from a cartridge, but that cartridge is made of soft material (like paper or cloth) that is torn open so that the contents may be shoved down the barrel."
The alchemical cartridge simply has a measured load of powder and ball, that the musketeer can pour down the barrel. He still has to tamp it down with the ramrod before firing, otherwise it will not fire properly. And not to mention, he needs to pull out the ramrod before loading, and replacing it before firing, otherwise take the chance of losing a vital part of his weapon.
Even using a paper (alchemical) cartridge, the best an 18th century musketeer could hope to fire was a rate of 3 rounds per minute. http://www.history.com/videos/musket-loading-how-fast#musket-loading-how-fa st Medieval longbows could be fired at the rate of six arrows per minute, faster if the archer was not concerned with fatigue.
Dakota it is hard to argue realism with people that are only concerned with game mechanics. This is video game culture in action. IMHO, firearms do not belong in a D&D type setting but who cares about my opinion anyway? And yes, you are correct about realistic rates of fire. I debated this at length on other threads previously to no avail. So to respond to the orginal poster I agree that gunslinger rules need to be erratad, just not in the same manner. They should be brought into line with reality. And as for an advanced firearm not exploding, I would like to share one of many examples
MarlinLeverAction
I can totally see what you guys are getting at brvheart, and I agree. For some reasons I don't fully understand (I somewhat understand, but I have my own personal disagreements with Paizo in this field) Paizo decided to stick renaisance era firearms into a game wherein game balance would require either making those firearms very powerful, making them simple weapons, or being Western-Era firearms instead. (Namely replacing Pistol with Revolver and Musket with Repeating Rifle)
On the other hand, I haven't had the need to really pour over the gunslinger, and don't know what level they get the Rapid Reload deed. If you've seen some of the amazing things modern gun performers can pull off at level 4-5 max and then apply that logic to characters of even higher level than that... it blurs the line between mundane and supernatural.
Actually I like guns, just not in D&D. I know some of the fastest shooters there are in the period guns that we are refering to and they are extremely fast with Advanced firearms. The difference is their guns are preloaded. Check out Lead Dispenser:
World Record Gunslingersaka Van Morgan 76068
Myself, I am not that fast<G>
|
The problem IMO with firearms is that the DEV implemented them poorly if they wanted them to fire at the same rate as a bow then they should have just made lever action or revolver type weapons and given them the same misfire as the current muskets and pistols.
My solution is that Muskets have a rate of fire of one shot per round unless the gunslinger has an irrative attack then he gets on shot per irritive attack. TO balance the slower rate of fire double the damage of a musket does 2d12x4 [also double the damage of a pistol.]. Rapid reload would have no effect on single barrel weapons. Rapid reload would give a double barrel weapon the same rate of fire as a single barrel weapon. Change lighting reload to lighting shot and this would give one extra shot per round. I also would not let haste affect the rate of fire of a firearm.
Double barrel Musket: rate of fire of 1 round per irrtive attack or 2 rounds at a minus 2 to hit. And a full round to reload both barrels
If he has rapid shot he fires at the same rate of fire as a single barrel fire arm. Alchemical rounds also reduce the reloading time to that of a single barrel fire arm but do not stack with the rapid reload feat.
The Rapid shot feat would work differently with fire arms. Rapid shot would only work with double barrel fire arms. Rapid shot would negate the minus 2 to hit when fire both barrels of a double barrel fire arm.
My issue is not with the fire rate, but with the reload rate. With 2 6 shooters a very high level gunslinger should be able to shoot both pistols in a round. The record is 1.86 seconds by Widowmaker. But even Widowmaker, Badland Bud, Lead Dispenser or Holy Terror could reload them as a free action. My main issue though is with the muzzle loaders. Just have your gunslingers carry the standard 6-8 pistols and then switch off to a sword when they are empty if you want some realism. And don't get me started about Paizo's rules about not being able to reload cartridges. They were reloading them as soon as they hit the market. What you want is 21st century speedloaders, double action pistols and AR15s. The problem is you are taking 21st century tech and trying to apply it to 17th-19th century firearms.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My issue is not with the fire rate, but with the reload rate. With 2 6 shooters a very high level gunslinger should be able to shoot both pistols in a round. The record is 1.86 seconds by Widowmaker. But even Widowmaker, Badland Bud, Lead Dispenser or Holy Terror could reload them as a free action. My main issue though is with the muzzle loaders. Just have your gunslingers carry the standard 6-8 pistols and then switch off to a sword when they are empty if you want some realism. And don't get me started about Paizo's rules about not being able to reload cartridges. They were reloading them as soon as they hit the market. What you want is 21st century speedloaders, double action pistols and AR15s. The problem is you are taking 21st century tech and trying to apply it to 17th-19th century firearms.
Ban them in your home games.
Let other people build awesome badasses who can do stuff no person in real life could do.
Like effectively wield dire flails.
When I think of professional gunmen with double (or more) barrels in a fantasy world, I always wonder why they don't figure out a way to do away with the need to reload all together.
Permanent reloading hands spell and abundant ammo cast right on the magazine.
A blunderbuss with a top-loading magazine made out of a handy haversack full of buckshot and powder would probably do the trick. Reload the hopper once a week.
Load a gun with bullets of returning that pop back into the chamber after every shot so you can shoot someone ten times with the same bullet.
Basically, all the hoops that you need to jump though in order to reload are pure nonsense. Hell, in the real world we have Speed Loaders and Auto-feeding magazines. Imagine what we could do with a little magic.
At fastest, a musket could be loaded and fired maybe, three times a minute. For the untrained, it would be more like one or two times a minute.
On the other hand, the thing that brought firearms to ascendancy is the ease with which they could be used. They are simple weapons. That, and the vast superiority that cannon hold over any sort of catapult.
I don't really see the act of discharging a firearm as provoking an AoO, either.
The Revolutionary Militia had great difficulty standing up to the British regulars. Not because of any superiority of Brown Bess*, but because they were terrified of the British bayonet charge.
If I were to allow firearms in a game was running the rules would have to reflect the above facts. Of course I'm only a player right now and there are Gunslingers in both of the games I'm in. In these games, I accept the rules for Gunslingers, and don't complain at all.
Obviously in Golarion, science works a bit differently than here on Earth.
*This was the nickname the British had for their muskets. A design that was in use for around seventy years.
Heh. Normally I'm against critical fails, but for the Dire Flail, and Orc Double Axe, I can make an exception.
Not sure what a Barbazu Beard is.
I Don't think the spiked chain is so far fetched. For certain sure, a chain could be used as a weapon, if it was the right weight and length.
|
|
blackblooded troll; I m not againist guns in FRP I am just againist lame rules thet totaly break any concept of reality. IF you want to
have fantaistical guns put John Woo guns in your game guns that don't run out of ammo r msfire. If you want guns that are semi realistic put some senisible rules in like a a semi realistic rate of fire.
I would add advacced guns and just do away with early fire ams unless the GM wants them. There are many godd magic items that could be added for firearms if Pazio want them added.
The one thing and oly thing I reall think needs to be nerfed is the ricochet shot deed. It is far to easy for that deed to be greatly abused in the game. I have witnessed it both as a playe an a GM.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm with BBT on this one, it's a fantasy game. Reloading fast isn't a big deal.
That same gunslinger who reloads too fast might be flying, wielding guns that auto-magically reload with conjured bullets, while his buddy the cavalier rides a T-Rex who breaths fire, and their other buddy the Monk swims in & drinks from pools of wyvern poison since he likes to kill his enemies by peeing on them.
I don't see how it's any worse than anything else.
Seems to me the problem isn't reloading rules, but double-barreled firearms.
RD, double-barreled firearms are a perfectly reasonable thing, given that they really exist and all. The rules that model them even make sense. When I read them I don't find myself making faces at the screen.
Not true with the reloading rules.
Allow me to rephrase, the problem appears to be with the double-barreled firearm rule that lets you double up on your attacks in the round.
Ah. Well, how else could you do it? One attack roll with the expenditure of two ammo for additional damage? Essentially a x2 crit attack for double the ammo?
Could be viable. Still doesn't fix the OP's issue about how to reload double barreled weapons.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How I would do it? Probably have it expend two shots of ammo, take a -2 to hit, and add an extra die of damage.
Similar to how Rapid Shot works in Star Wars Saga.
Honestly I think double weapons should just be a standard action to fire both barrels at once. So you can either A fire normally using iterative attacks/reloading/rapidshot etc using both barrels in sequence OR you can fire both barrels with a single standard action. That problem is solved.
The problem some people have with guns in a fantasy world is a whole OTHER story.