The existence of rumormonger does not mean you can't start rumors.
It does mean you can spread rumors without the "telephone game" problem and many other possible effects.
There wasn't a telephone game problem to begin with. In fact there were nor explicit rules for starting rumors. Rumormonger has the only rules for it at all! It has the power you give it, which means it could be insanely overpowered, insanely underpowered, or it could just do nothing, or it could even take away peoples abilities to spread rumors without it. That's sort of the awkward place you put roleplay rules in. They're as powerful as you make them.
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THAT is the gm role in the game, to play the NPc, to play the world. There should not eb a rule to tell him what to do
IN ssalarn´s example the wizard is using his class features to achieve a goal, and that is good, it could have some consequences up to the DM. IN the fighter case is totally different. He is not using x ability that HE posses but is the world happily agreeing with him.
No. The Fighter has earned a reputation through deeds. He now has a set mechanical framework to parlay those deeds into social clout by saying "Yeah, I'm that Ssalarn, the one who slew Czhagorrath the Black. Now I believe you were about to let my friends and I into the party?"
*successfully rolls Intimidate check with +6 bonus from Fearsome Reputation*"Holy crap, you're that guy! Let me get that for you!"
The Fighter is still making rolls to execute his actions, but instead of those rolls being enhanced by his ability to make the forces of creation his b*~!~ or godly intervention, they're enhanced by his own bad-assery.
The Fighter just accomplished the same thing a Wizard casting charm person or a similar spell would have, but he did it a way that's non-magical and makes sense for the character.
THat is what I'm trying to say. Rumormonger is awful, no mechanic like that should exist.And I am not seeing how those narrative solution are comparable to what wizard have. Wizard abilities let him do or try to do things, the solutions to narrative unbalance I have seen impose restriction on the story not because the fighter can now do this or do that but because the world now confabulates to help the fighter.
First of all; Rumormonger isn't terrible because of what it's trying to do mechanically, it's terrible because for most people, it now means you have to have the Rumormonger ability to do something that everyone would have assumed you could do otherwise. What Rumormonger should have done was given you bonuses to your Bluff checks under the described circumstances to make it happen.
The Wizard gets to make the game world follow his rules. That's what spells do. He gets instant gratification "People hate me? Now they don't. Those guys are my enemies? Now they're my friends".
Since non-magic using classes can't bend the game world with a snap of their fingers, there has to be an assumption that they are creating, by their actions, a framework within the game world that allows them to exercise similar power.
First of all: Yeah I agree with you, that is what I tried (perhaps unsuccessfully) to say. It should just give a bonus, not to encompass the whole thing in a rigid mechanics.
======================================Now, the wizard can TRY to make the game world follow his rule. BUt his spellcasting can have consequences, not sure If I am the only gm like that, but the wizard will not have all the things just because he is a wizard (I also ban/nerf the most problematic spells), a lot of things an go wrong.
In order to achieve his goals the wizard have to play the game. He will not be the king just because he is a wizard. He have to actually succeed by his own. He could fail, he could die trying, that is what playing is about, IMHO.
Now, if the fighter wants to be a king he will need tools that let him TRY to achieve that goal, by playing the game. They lack that. What they do not need is a feat that let them be king just because they are 15th level fighters.
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When I hear people claim that 3rd edition is the problem for fighters I know right away that they never played 1st or 2nd Ed.
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I loved 1st Ed but 3rd Ed vastly opened up the options for fighters. The very idea that you can use feats to create different kinds of fighters (two handed, two weapon, bow specialist, pole arm). You can say that 3rd Ed gave even more options to other classes but not that it did not improve the fighter.
Frankly, because I am an old time gamer, I don't expect every class to be able to do everything. I'm perfectly fine with Fighters fighting and bards singing and clerics healing and wizards being awesome.
Sigh...
Yes, fighters did get more options –all at a price that doesn’t even out.Under the New Rules (d20):
- Loss of multiple attacks per round at no penalty
- Loss of battlefield mobility (now full attack)
- Declared Speed based initiative replaced by cyclical initiative and AoO . AoO which btw hurt the martial classes the most.
- Increased hit points across the board. Your Fighter now does more damage; too bad everything else has 50-75% more hit points.
- Poor save paradigm. Terrible really.
AoO - They lost much of their ability to fight and control the battlefield in 3rd ed games – AoO did that, as well as tying their attach scheme to their BAB (+6/+1 vs 3 attacks every 2 rounds at level 1).
History lesson (pay attention here Pyrrhic Victory) – AoO were created as a stop gap after they removed the Speed Based Declared Initiative system. So in Kirth’s dagger example at the end of the round we have a Fighter who is a distance away from his party wizard (already wounded) who is being attacked by a Goblin. Under the current rules the fighter is locked in a cyclical initiative style round to round. In a declared speed based system, the Fighter can chuck one of his daggers at the Goblin and possibly kill it before it kills his friend – if he beats it on initiative next round.
I understand the need for AoO to control battlefield movement and to protect casters, but it should have been implemented in a better way and as it stands the system crushes martial based characters.
Skills – As much as people balk at the old NWP, they were at least protected. If your character had a skill, it couldn’t be gamed via stat manipulation (since none really existed) unlike the current system. In 3rd ed/D20 games there is no skill protection – you have a rank, then if you are a caster you can wildly manipulate the final score since it is a binary and purely numeric system. This is bad for martials and skill monkey characters and really is unforgivable game design.
Skills should have protection and should not be tied to a number - at least not a number that can be artificially pumped up via spell, potion, etc. Skills should have tiers (novice, trained, experienced, master) and those tiers should have best results tied to them, thus making them usefull from level 1 to level 20 (besides protecting their math values).
Fighters could use a bump or fix here or there, but the source problem is casters, magic and magic item creation. There are a few other issues (which I will go into) but those are the biggest.
The Main Problem with Fighters is the Casters and Magic system of D20 games.
No one wants to address this because it would mean a roll-back on power, players who love casters (seems like the game designers also loved casters) would throw a fit and revolt.
So, some of the problems:
There are several aspects to this problem; most are not repairable without a major game re-write.
Under the New Rules (d20):
- Casters can now cast in combat or after being hit. Horribly unbalanced. Spell casting = risk, have some in your game and give your martials a defender role.
- Casters can manipulate the difficulty of their save DCs. No other classes can do this on a regular basis – casters can easily increase the save DCs for all their spells, spells use a binary mechanic (save or fail). This is bad game design.
- Casters can create their own items at no risk or great personal cost.
- Casters can create their own items that break the meta game and no risk or great personal cost – stat enhancers, which in turn increase their DCs saves which in turn…well, you get the idea. Stupid, unforgivable game design consideration. This is "asleep at the wheel" level of irresponsibility.
- Spells break the skill system. Spells that give you +X to climb take a huge steaming pile on classes designed around climbing.
- Spell casting as a whole has no downside or risks (no aging, system shock, risk of damage is minimal, etc). Now some of these were a bit harsh in 2nd ed, but they are softball in 3rd ed – too much so. Just like a fighter taking risks running into a crowd of creatures, casting powerful magic should also have its own risks and complexity beyond thinking about your "daily optimal loadout".
Fighters can use a fix, maybe something that can make them more interesting - but the source problem is what people are comparing fighters to - namely casters.
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Now, if the fighter wants to be a king he will need tools that let him TRY to achieve that goal, by playing the game. They lack that. What they do not need is a feat that let them be king just because they are 15th level fighters.
And I didn't suggest that they should, but I certainly suggested that they should be given the tools to follow that role if they wanted.
A wizard can, with very little difficulty, use his magic to effectively take people's existence hostage, making them sign over their livelihoods, their kingdoms, etc. The rules facilitate him doing this.
The Fighter has no framework to even begin with something like that short of murdering everyone who disagrees with him.
I think you're attributing far too much to the suggested feat. I'm saying people should know him,, they've heard about what he does, and he knows how to spin that knowledge to his own advantage.
The Fighter still has to make the rolls and do the activities to turn the feat into something useful.
Well, I already said that I am good with feat that let the fighter exploit his (Already obtained by actually gaming) fame for a +x to diplomacy or intimidate. The feat would mean he is good manipulating people by his own.
It's a 3rd level feat specific to a particular region Nicos. Either the Fighter already has been adventuring and accrued those deeds, or you've handwaved it and jumped in at 3rd level, meaning the appropriate deeds have already been accomplished as part of his backstory. Unless you're using the 20,000 drowned kittens method of leveling up, you've earned your reputation and the mechanical benefits of the feat (and even then, that sounds like the kind of thing that would probably boost your Intimidate checks).
There wasn't a telephone game problem to begin with. In fact there were nor explicit rules for starting rumors. Rumormonger has the only rules for it at all! It has the power you give it, which means it could be insanely overpowered, insanely underpowered, or it could just do nothing, or it could even take away peoples abilities to spread rumors without it. That's sort of the awkward place you put roleplay rules in. They're as powerful as you make them.The existence of rumormonger does not mean you can't start rumors.
It does mean you can spread rumors without the "telephone game" problem and many other possible effects.
I would say fair point, but the likelyhood that a GM would let you convince everyone in a town that something was true with a single bluff check that never exceeded 35 is pretty small.
The rules for rumors are pretty undefined and up to GM RP, but this particular method (which could easily be an 8th level spell) is done with an advance talent and has fixed mechanics.
Picture a spell that was no-save(cause my feint rogue can't fail that check) implant a belief in a whole community.
That would be like alter memories mass or lesser geas mass, and a rogue can get it!
That would be like alter memories mass or lesser geas mass, and a rogue can get it!
Which is the other extreme, extremely overpowered. "Rabbits are dragons!" or "Your all jackolopes!" is suddenly a thing.
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I would say fair point, but the likelyhood that a GM would let you convince everyone in a town that something was true with a single bluff check that never exceeded 35 is pretty small.
The rules for rumors are pretty undefined and up to GM RP, but this particular method (which could easily be an 8th level spell) is done with an advance talent and has fixed mechanics.
Picture a spell that was no-save(cause my feint rogue can't fail that check) implant a belief in a whole community.
That would be like alter memories mass or lesser geas mass, and a rogue can get it!
You're crediting Rumormonger with way more power than it deserves. Thousands of people bought in to the rumor that Obama wasn't a US citizen and accepted it as fact, but he still got elected president.
As to the framework of the ability itself; if I lie to you, and you fall for the lie, that means you have accepted what I said as fact. At the very outside, most powerful interpretation, Rumormonger saves you some footwork on spreading your lie. Not time, because a determined Rogue could easily spread a lie in the same amount of time as the ability, just footwork. It is not even remotely close to the power of an 8th level spell.
That would be like alter memories mass or lesser geas mass, and a rogue can get it!Which is the other extreme, extremely overpowered. "Rabbits are dragons!" or "Your all jackolopes!" is suddenly a thing.
Which still doesn't mean it's OP. They don't suddenly gain the physical form of a jackalope and the bunnies don't grow scales and wings. People are just going to go "Well I'll be durned, I allus thought I were a human. And those little fuzzy things wit the big ears is what we been a feared of all this time? I'll be darned. Learn something new every day!"
Only as much as they are a class feature of rangers, monks, rogues, etc. All of those classes get bonus feats. In fact, most of them actually get them more like class features (because they can pick up some feats without even qualifying for them).
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Many classes have a list of what amount to class-specific bonus feats: Rage Powers, Rogue Talents, Magus Arcana, Oracle Revelations, Alchemist Discoveries, and Wizard Discoveries.
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Quite a bit in terms of combat, yes. If the only requirement Fighters had to meet was BAB then the way feats are structured wouldn't be so abysmally painful.
That really doesn't help anything with the Fighter's terrible magical defenses and lack of utility outside of whackin' stuff, though.
Many classes have a list of what amount to class-specific bonus feats: Rage Powers, Rogue Talents, Magus Arcana, Oracle Revelations, Alchemist Discoveries, and Wizard Discoveries.
Pretty much this, really. There's not really any real difference between feats and *insert other ability here* other than feats are things that you can acquire by meeting certain prerequisites. For example, there is functionally no difference between the Improved Trip feat and a class feature that gives +2 to Tripping maneuvers and makes you not provoke, other than the feat can be taken by everyone, requires stupid prerequisites, and you lose access to it if your ability scores fall below a certain threshold (which since Paizo can't figure out how Ability Damage works, means that Fighters lose most of their class features the moment that they eat some ability damage).
I also said before that I would just apply circumstance modifiers, bu apparently that is not too popular around here.
Well, I already said that I am good with feat that let the fighter exploit his (Already obtained by actually gaming) fame for a +x to diplomacy or intimidate. The feat would mean he is good manipulating people by his own.Why would you need a feat for that? Use reputation, apply circumstance modifier appropriately.
Honestly one of my least favorite things about skill use in Pathfinder is the way Paizo creates these feats and talents that essentially just replace roleplaying.
I don't hate rumormonger because spreading lies as fact is lame, I hate rumormonger because you should be able to do that with bluff anyways.
I think the issue with that is that people want something that's built into the system, rather than falling back on "the GM might do this if he thinks its a good idea."
I want my level 20 fighter to be able to jump higher.
Can we make that priority 1?
I want all this massive strength and martial ability to translate across to other mechanics.
It reminds me of 3.5's Forgotten Realm's feat Spell Thematics, which sort of reads like a feat tax on refluffing.
Big difference is that feat gives a pretty big buff with it. I thought spell thematics fluff effect was something you could already do too...
Besides the 4+int skill points, perhaps other good idea to improve fighter out of combat utility is to give them something like the ranger favored terrain. A situational ability that let then choose in what kind of situation they are better with certain skills.
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It's an RPG, not a cRPG. You can do whatever you want. Succeeding is another matter.It isn't a cRPG, sure, but it's also a structured RPG, not a freeform one like FATE, and if the rules say you need to be a gnome with a feat to trick prison guards into thinking you're harmless? Then that means every other race in the game (and gnomes without the feat) can't.
Oh your fighter wants to take butterfly sting? Hope you like Desna! Did you want that cool thing that lets you cleave with awesomeness? Hope you were born a dwarf. Did you want some sort of super endurance line of feats? Half-orcs only. Haha, aww... poor fightbro.
Its the mundane ones that look really silly imo.
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Uhm, yeah, I know. That's why I said it's up to the DM.Oh I know, but if you're then relying on the dm you're right back where you started.
It isn't a cRPG, sure, but it's also a structured RPG, not a freeform one like FATE, and if the rules say you need to be a gnome with a feat to trick prison guards into thinking you're harmless? Then that means every other race in the game (and gnomes without the feat) can't.
It's an RPG, not a cRPG. You can do whatever you want. Succeeding is another matter.That's a very unimaginative and limited way of playing this game.
Also Rule 0.
Rule 0 is never a viable defense argument imo.
Its not unimaginative, its just that the game really is written that way. No one said it was a good thing or that you shouldn't or couldn't rule 0, but the baseline is no rule 0, since we can't garuntee it no matter how stupid or inane. That make sense?
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Yeah, except I didn't say there's a problem and I'm not saying the DM can fix it. I'm saying it's part of the rules and of being a DM.Also Rule 0.Hello Oberoni! ... Rule 0 is nice, but saying "The DM can just fix it" isn't a compelling argument for there not being problem, if anything it's the opposite.
No one said it wasn't. Its not a great common ground though, and houserules are never a great excuse for bad design.
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Here's a small list of what fighters lost going from 2e to 3e.
1) Exclusive access to high Str score bonuses.
Everyone can get as strong as a fighter.
2) Exclusive access to high Con score bonuses.
Now everyone gets the same bonuses.
3) Stat bonuses start at 12.
Before, it took MAJOR investment in a stat to be good at it. A 15/14/31/12/10/8 character literally had NO bonuses if that 15 was in Str. To be a fighter or ANY kind of melee, you had to have serious investment in the appropriate stats.
4) Stats were limited, and stat boosters were rare.
Seriously, when you're limited to 18, and +Stat items aren't everywhere, hit die and what bonuses you DO have become very important.
5) Everyone else's BAB improved.
Wizards went for 1/3 to 1/2. Rogues went from 1/2 to 3/4, and clerics went from 2/3 to 3/4.
6) Saves crashed and burned.
Everyone knows this one. They didn't have the best starting out, but were neck and neck at 'Name' level, and the best at the end.
7) Got to move and full attack.
Not anymore, they can't.
8) Exclusive access to multiple attacks.
Only TWF allowed other classes to do the same.
9) The only class to get reliable damage bonuses via Weapon Spec
10) 'Unlimited' Dex in armor. ACP? What's that?
11) Monsters have more hit points. Hugely more. Devastatingly more. Which makes fighters that much less effective against them.
12) Stats are Uncapped.
Similar to 1, but not only can other classes be as strong as fighters, they can be HUGELY MORESO, via magic. +3/+3 Double weapon spec was awesome, back in the day. ++16 Str from turning into a grizzly bear is moreso.
13) Loss of class abilities.
Main one for a fighter, the ability to found a keep and gather followers.
14) The most weapon proficiencies.
Back in the day, you actually had to choose what you were proficient in. Now everybody and their brother gets access to martial weapons.
15) Weapons were relatively stronger.
d8/d12 longswords. d10/3d6 Greatswords. Combined with lower monster hit points, weapons were simply stronger.
16) Spellcasting got sped up.
used to be, you could interrupt a caster anytime during the period his spell was being cast. Now, you have to hit him ON HIS ACTION to stop it, unless it's a rare full-round casting.
17) You hit a caster, he lost the spell.
One hit. No concentration checks, thanks.
18) Just as many skills as everyone else.
Class skills, what? Major shafting here.
19) Fighter only magic items.
Tellingly, Girdles of Giant Str.
20) Less Healing magic.
If there's less healing magic around, the guys with the most hit points are the best to have. With healing magic, the main difference is how well you recover between fights, not how many you have in this one.
Basically, Wands of CLW made it easy to ignore having 20 less hit points then the guy next to you, if you all just got healed back up by the next fight.
21) Everyone got hit dice for all levels.
Like monsters getting more hit dice, and everyone getting the high Con bonuses, getting more Hit Die just made the HP advantage fighters used to have get sucked away.
22) The best with hit die.
Wizards and rogues both got HD improvements in PF. Instead of making fighters better, they intro'd barbarians.
23) Potion miscibility.
Yeah, this. You were very careful of taking potion buffs, because you couldn't suck down a potion of healing while under a potion of giant strength, you know?
24) Magical armor had no move restrictions and was half weight.
Now? Unless it's made of mithral, suck it for some levels.
25) Bastard swords were awesome.
Bastard swords now suck.
26) Haste aged you a year.
When other classes get easy access to multiple attacks, it devalues the fighter types having them. Haste is everywhere now. Everyone gets multiple attacks at full BAB!
27) Only fighter types got multiple attacks.
Everyone gets multiple attacks based on BAB.
28) Multiple attacks were all at the same hit rate.
Now, multiple attacks are less and less likely to hit.
29) Varying xp advance tables. Weak classes tended to advance faster.
Everyone advances the same in level, but not the same in power now.
30)Spell Resistance worked!
Spell resistance is now a small impediment with the right build, or not at all.
31) Save or suck spells got less and less effective with level.
Save and suck now gets more effective with level.
32) Spells took a LONG time to get back.
Spells take an hour to get back...or less, with the right feats. This removes another limitation on casters.
I'm sure there are others, but that's all I could come up with in 15 minutes.
==Aelryinth
2e was also a fundamentally different game where kobolds can be threatening to level 12 PCs.
I don't think the two systems are all that comparable. It's like trying to compare fighters in 4th ed with 3.5 fighters
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Yes, they are indeed fundamentally different.
One of those main differences is that fighters were immensely stronger within the rules of the game.
And Tucker's Kobolds weren't dangerous if you knew how to play. I continually goggle at the idea that 10th level characters couldn't take them apart. A simple summoned elemental of ANY of the elements would have destroyed them right inside their tunnels. A fireball detonating in their tunnels under 1e Rules would likely have filled every little crawlspace with 10d6 of flame and cooked them all. A Reduced mage surrounded in a Wall of Fire in sphere form guided by wizard eye and flying could have hurtled through their little tunnels and hunted them down like rats.
==Aelryinth
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Oh, so it's bad design to not have a rule for every little detail in the game?
No one said that either. Cut it out!