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Armor Training is decent on its face, until you realize that it just means the fighter needs high STATS. Without a high Dex, armor training is useless. ANd yes, it can be replaced with both Celestial Armor and Mithral armor for basically pocket change.
Ergo, it's creating a dependency on high stats. A true fighter would be looking for the Celestial Mithral Full Plate and the, um 36 Dex required to take advantage of the +13 Dex allowed. Oh, but getting that 36 Dex isn't a part of the class.
Barbs, now, barbs can blow rage powers and get an easy +10 to AC from class abilities!
The fighter will never move as fast as the barbarian, even with three levels of armor training. The barb will be faster from level 1 and always.
The barb can blow one Rage pOwer, and get a better scaling bonus in melee, or from enhanced natural armor, or against missiles...or all three. Yes, one feat is better then four different levels of class abilities of the fighter. ANd doesn't require a 20 Dex to max out, either!
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Conan is not a thief, or rather, is not a rogue. That he robs stuff from people is a given, but brigands and thugs do that, too.
He can't pick pockets, he's not a contortionist, he can't pick locks and he can't disarm traps.
He can climb extremely well, he's very sneaky (esp in natural terrain), has good reflexes and notices the enemy. He's a no-spell ranger through and through. I'd give him uncanny dodge instead of animal companion to represent his reflexes is about it.
That, and his starting 18 in most of his stats carry him along.
==Aelryinth
It's a "fault" in design, if at first level the ranks were multiplied by 4 just like in D&D 3.5 then the fighter could fit any archetype. A fighter with Int 13 would have 12 ranks to distribute and then he could put background ranks like Profession (Blacksmith) or whatever. Pathfinder guys have the brilliant idea of not having to spend 2 ranks to get one in a cross-class but it should have kept the first level boost in ranks.
Not having said boost makes some Pathfinder characters very dull, let's say you have a first level cleric with Int 9 then you have only one rank, two if you choose to spend the favored class bonus on having an additional rank. Still, only two ranks is very restrictive.
It was a convenience thing. Since you can't have more then x+3 ranks in any particular skill, the only difference is the fighter can't dip a lot of skills. If he wants a maxed out skill, it's identical.
But, yeah.
I was actually thinking of a feat to address the fighter's lack of skill points.
Advanced Training
Your continual self-improvement results in additional skills. Pick a skill. You have ranks in that skill equal to your class level, and it is a class skill for you.
If you have the Bravery class ability, then every time you gain a Bravery bonus increase, you may pick an additional skill to gain ranks and class bonus in.
Soooo....start with 2 Skill points, take a feat, and you can end up with 7! You just have to wait awhile to get everything, but that just means it is auto scaling!
==Aelryinth
Armor Training is decent on its face, until you realize that it just means the fighter needs high STATS. Without a high Dex, armor training is useless. ANd yes, it can be replaced with both Celestial Armor and Mithral armor for basically pocket change.
Ergo, it's creating a dependency on high stats. A true fighter would be looking for the Celestial Mithral Full Plate and the, um 36 Dex required to take advantage of the +13 Dex allowed. Oh, but getting that 36 Dex isn't a part of the class.Barbs, now, barbs can blow rage powers and get an easy +10 to AC from class abilities!
The fighter will never move as fast as the barbarian, even with three levels of armor training. The barb will be faster from level 1 and always.
The barb can blow one Rage pOwer, and get a better scaling bonus in melee, or from enhanced natural armor, or against missiles...or all three. Yes, one feat is better then four different levels of class abilities of the fighter. ANd doesn't require a 20 Dex to max out, either!
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Conan is not a thief, or rather, is not a rogue. That he robs stuff from people is a given, but brigands and thugs do that, too.He can't pick pockets, he's not a contortionist, he can't pick locks and he can't disarm traps.
He can climb extremely well, he's very sneaky (esp in natural terrain), has good reflexes and notices the enemy. He's a no-spell ranger through and through. I'd give him uncanny dodge instead of animal companion to represent his reflexes is about it.
That, and his starting 18 in most of his stats carry him along.
==Aelryinth
Then perhaps there is more of a problem in the way stats are generated and less in the way the fighter works.
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Joining this debate really late but the argument is not that fighters aren't good at what they do, it's that other classes can do it better. For optimization, a fighter is only good for a 1-4 level dip for weapon training (as a weapon master) or early feat access. Honestly I don't see any mechanical justification behind their low skill points it's more "I'm a fighter and so I can't be good at skills".
I would agree, the fighting arts should not be so limiting to skills.
On fighters, if I am in a short and gritty gung ho game, I will go fighter. Then its the choice of do I mix it with barb, rogue, or get all the feats for the build I want by level 6-7 pure fighter.
Good for the end of game? Well the items matter a lot more as it goes along, but I like the simplicity of the fighter. Yes, you can make them very complex with certain feat selections, but you can keep it dreadfully simple mechanically, so you can focus on other parts of the game (rping, being an old AD&D like lord of an area, chasing noble titles, seeking out mighty magic weapons of ancient times, and so on).
Now the barb ends up being a fair bit better, but they have more to special abilities which means more clutter on their sheet. Be the fighter, keep it neat and clean I say. It is also very nice finishing your build at level 6 when others need to be higher in level for their builds or spells/spell combos. Low level game, the fighter can really shine, and not just that, it is easy to enjoy!
Hail the fighting man!
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The skill thing is overstated. Be a human, put your favored class bonus into skills, and have an int of 13 (which opens up that combat expertise line, anyway). Boom! You've got five skill points/level. That's plenty. Now, you won't be the BEST at any of them, but you'll be passable, especially if you take advantage of your tremendous number of feats and pick up some of the skill-boosters (which scale up at 10th level, so they keep paying off; a fighter with skill focus in a non-class skill could eventually become just as good as a character who has it as a class skill without any further investment, assuming we're not talking about prime stats here).
Fighters are capable of being REALLY good at fighting; we shouldn't expect them to be REALLY good at other things (though we can expect them to be decent at some of them).
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There are several weakness here.
1) 4 skill per level does not make any clas REALLY good in skills.
2) fighter are good at fighting, the sames at almost every other calss. Without going to far, paladins and barbarians. Why they can be good outside combat too. Fighters are not particulary better at figthing that the other classes.
3) What about other races? are they doomed to be dumb?
4) Using yout favored lcass bonus in skill make you weaker in combat. Now the human barbarian with int 13 is better at skill an also plain superior in hit points.
1) Correct. You can have your fighter fill a certain character type through how you play him and how you spend your skill points. You don't have to take 5 feats just to play the diplomat or woodland recluse you mentioned in your earlier post.
2) You are VASTLY understating the near-universal utility and awesomeness of weapon training. It applies to whole categories of weapons, boosts attack and damage, works with combat maneuvers, and is always on without the possibility of ending. Compared to rage (which has limited uses per day and downsides during/after battle), smite evil / challenge (limited # of uses per day and either carries drawbacks or selective on what you can target), or favored enemy (highly selective in just how it applies) weapon training is the clear winner in terms of over-all benefit, especially with one best in slot item for your hands.
3) Being trained in additional skills and professions =/= smarter. Humans learn more but burn out faster. The other races get things to make up for it. This does not make them inherently dumber.
4) What if you have a trait that gives you a bonus to Acrobatics and makes it a class skill? Now you can, with some degree of reliability, avoid AoOs. Same with Stealth, get the drop on the enemy along with your rogue or whatever. Perception, anyone? Arguably the most 'save your butt and get cool stuff' skill in the game? Better to have utility that lets you avoid bad starts to fights and/or give you an early leg up in them.
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The skill thing is overstated. Be a human, put your favored class bonus into skills, and have an int of 13 (which opens up that combat expertise line, anyway). Boom! You've got five skill points/level.
And an inferior character. What would a fighter need combat expertise for? Combat maneuvers? A monk can do that better. AC? Heck a rogue with a one level fighter dip could beat you out for AC and still have tons of skills and abilities. Further proving that the fighter is a dip class.
Plus the fighter doesn't even have acrobatics as a class skill and the main benefit of armor training is using acrobatics in heavier armor...
Also, those arguing that the fighter sustains his abilities while other classes like rangers/paladins/barbarians are situational aren't thinking of pathfinder in terms of a game. A balanced GM will not pit players against encounter after encounter without rest. Attend any PFS scenario and you'll see almost every scenario has at least one rest opportunity despite only 4-5 encounters. So having to manage limited abilities isn't really an issue.
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2) You are VASTLY understating the near-universal utility and awesomeness of weapon training.
And rage applies to EVERY weapon and grants additional abilities through rage powers... Weapon versatility is not a fighter's strong point because due to weapon specialization he should focus on a single weapon. Weapon training is nice and strong when used with gloves of dueling, but you can get this ability with a three level dip as a weapon master.
1) Maybe, but the problem is when unmbers do not back up your character concept. With the same stats a barbarian will be a better diplomat, and the fighter will not be a better warrior.
2) I am well aware of the power of weapon training. I really like those "+1" bonuses. In no place I have said that fighters lack in DPR, fighter have good to great DPR, but figthing have much more factors.
The paladin can self heal, is inmune to fear, have huge saves, inmune to charm, have really strong spells and acces to really good feats.
A ranger have instant enemied, a pouncing pet, better saves spells, and for some reason have better acces to feats.
The barbarian...oh the barbarian, ths guys have a solid AC, DR, pounce, the absurdly good come and get me, spell sunder, eater of magic, witch hunter, corageous and furious weapons. Just with pounce they are ahead, but when that is coupled with one of the best saves in the game...and still they are better diplomats.
The figthers fight well, that is it. The others also fight well, and have other things.
3) Still, they are mechanically screw with their skill choises.
4) And then you are giving up combat prowess to have other things. WHy the fighter have to make sacrifice to be just Ok with skills? why the others do have out of combat utility for free and still fight at least as good?
1) Then you find ways to make the numbers work. You spend money, traits, feats (which you have an excess of as a fighter), skill points, etc on the concept. By the book, I don't see how you're going to build a better diplomat as a barbarian over a fighter. The barb will have a couple more skill points for survival, perception, or whatever, but they're not going to have better outright capability for this out-of-combat role you're so worried about.
2) I notice you're skipping over all the limitations and caveats on all the other things those classes can do. For example, Instant Enemy not coming until level 10, maybe, and then just once a day at start. The paladin's code of conduct being an issue and how smite doesn't work on non-evil things. The barbarian losing AC/CMD while raging and having the power shut down for 8 hours if he gets fatigued. Fighter is rather bland because they get options that are solid and constant, but not extra powerful or flashy. There's really not a downside to anything they have or how you can build them. Boring, maybe, but that's balance for ya.
3) Not quite getting what you're saying. How, precisely, is a dwarf fighter 'screwed' because he only has 2 skill points per level, by base? Does he need to have climb, swim, both his knowledge skills, survival, and handle animal maxed at every level? You have to make hard choices at times with your skill point selection. It's the same with clerics, monks, and paladins. It's how the game works. Skills are not the fighter's focus, that belongs to certain INT-based classes and rogues/bards.
4) I don't think using a single trait is going to be that big of an impact on your combat prowess. Just take a disadvantage for a bonus one, if you're worried. Uneducated is both hilarious and easy for a class like the fighter.
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1) FIrst, you can do it as a fighter, but everything you mention can be done by other classes (traits, money etc), why the fighter have to suffer more than others in this regard?
A barbarian woudl be a better diplomatc cause he can have diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and be just better as an embassador or soemthing, and he he will have a better perception too.
In the point (3) you gave an example of a non-human fighter. With 2 skill per level he is pretty much screw.
2) Again, fighter are not inferior in combat compared to the other classes, this is not my point. My point is that figthers are not superior either.
3) Clerics have spells, and other abilities. That solves a lot of out of combat situations, fighthers do not. THere is a world of diference.
Sills are not the focus of barbarians, cavaliers, gunslinger still they are better than the fighter. Why?
Why the most mundane class in the game sucks at mundane affairs?
I think we're reaching an impasse here. I understand you're concerned that the fighter sucks because he's got very limited out-of-combat abilities. Fair enough, but many of us see that as the logical trade-off for his role. The fighter is just that, someone who specializes to a degree in a wide variety and to deep effect with their choice of numerous martial disciplines. Yes, they trade off some out-of-combat utility for that, but then other classes do the same thing for their specializations. It's called game balance. Just because his options in combat are a bit bland comparatively, doesn't he's not going to match or outdo his barbarian and paladin buddies most of the time. And just because he's got less skill points to spend as a result of that specialization, doesn't mean he can't fill a role and contribute to great degree if he really wants to in a few ways out of combat.
But, in any case, agree to disagree.
2) I notice you're skipping over all the limitations and caveats on all the other things those classes can do. ...The barbarian losing AC/CMD while raging
I take it you've never heard of the Beast Totem Rage Power?
and having the power shut down for 8 hours if he gets fatigued.
Unless he has any of the myriad ways of overcoming fatigue, of course, from status removing spells, to a Cord of Stubborn Resolve attached to his regular item, to the 3 or 4 ways he can just gain immunity to Fatigue or negate it once per day in the first place (a single level of Lame Oracle, for example).
There are several weakness here.
1) 4 skill per level does not make any clas REALLY good in skills.
2) fighter are good at fighting, the sames at almost every other calss. Without going to far, paladins and barbarians. Why they can be good outside combat too. Fighters are not particulary better at figthing that the other classes.
3) What about other races? are they doomed to be dumb?
4) Using yout favored lcass bonus in skill make you weaker in combat. Now the human barbarian with int 13 is better at skill an also plain superior in hit points.
1) Correct. You can have your fighter fill a certain character type through how you play him and how you spend your skill points. You don't have to take 5 feats just to play the diplomat or woodland recluse you mentioned in your earlier post.
2) You are VASTLY understating the near-universal utility and awesomeness of weapon training. It applies to whole categories of weapons, boosts attack and damage, works with combat maneuvers, and is always on without the possibility of ending. Compared to rage (which has limited uses per day and downsides during/after battle), smite evil / challenge (limited # of uses per day and either carries drawbacks or selective on what you can target), or favored enemy (highly selective in just how it applies) weapon training is the clear winner in terms of over-all benefit, especially with one best in slot item for your hands.
3) Being trained in additional skills and professions =/= smarter. Humans learn more but burn out faster. The other races get things to make up for it. This does not make them inherently dumber.
4) What if you have a trait that gives you a bonus to Acrobatics and makes it a class skill? Now you can, with some degree of reliability, avoid AoOs. Same with Stealth, get the drop on the enemy along with your rogue or whatever. Perception, anyone? Arguably the most 'save your butt and get cool stuff' skill in the game? Better to have utility that lets you avoid...
Yeah, high stealth high initiative fighters are good fun. So what if you didn't take levels in rogue? The power attack surprise and then a possible full round attack are wonderful to roll out. High stealth can also open up possible rogue quests like tailing or spying. If you get found out, well you just fight your way out.
Gosh I do love fighters. Good thread.
The skill thing is overstated. Be a human, put your favored class bonus into skills, and have an int of 13 (which opens up that combat expertise line, anyway). Boom! You've got five skill points/level.And an inferior character. What would a fighter need combat expertise for? Combat maneuvers? A monk can do that better. AC? Heck a rogue with a one level fighter dip could beat you out for AC and still have tons of skills and abilities. Further proving that the fighter is a dip class.
Plus the fighter doesn't even have acrobatics as a class skill and the main benefit of armor training is using acrobatics in heavier armor...
Also, those arguing that the fighter sustains his abilities while other classes like rangers/paladins/barbarians are situational aren't thinking of pathfinder in terms of a game. A balanced GM will not pit players against encounter after encounter without rest. Attend any PFS scenario and you'll see almost every scenario has at least one rest opportunity despite only 4-5 encounters. So having to manage limited abilities isn't really an issue.
Combat expertise is a means to beef up your ac, by hampering your attack, so that you take less damage and shut down more attacks. Good with str and dex slightly defensive shield builds. Keep your magic shield at the highest level of enchantment possible (they are cheap, so no excuses).
Now back in 3.5 when this feat had more choice to it, it was far better. Then, if you knew what you were dealing with, you can be quite cunning with this. Beef your ac up so that the enemy needs 20 to hit, but you can still get a hit on a high roll. Now it isn't useless, but there isn't much throttle control, only more as you level.
On resting and abilities, I take your point. Pure barbs especially are really unlikely to run out of rage. What this poster is more backing is that spellcasters need a lot of rest (I want my mighty spells back), whereas the fighter just needs hp and to keep their str dex and con high to continue. In really long battles, fighters that stay up can finish strong. Alchemists and wizards that run out of useful spells, do not finish strong. Otherwise, I agree with you. Many dms let the players all rest up. I do not always do this (and quests on a timer are great for pushing players out of their comfort zone).
Agree to disagree then. I just want to say that It is not game balance if the end result is not balanced. I mean, that maybe was the idea in the CRB, but after that every other martial class get better and better in combat while the fighter does not. Or the fighter becomes just plain better tha the others in combat or he needs more out of combat options. I prefer the later cause I prefer a balanced aproach.
Power creep and new classes always means some things get left behind. I know a pf dm that is disgusted with the creep. This guy used to be a pf fanboy, now he shakes his head and sighs.
I liked the beta fighter a fair bit.
Power creep and new classes always means some things get left behind. I know a pf dm that is disgusted with the creep. This guy used to be a pf fanboy, now he shakes his head and sighs.I liked the beta fighter a fair bit.
I'm a bit confused as to where the creep comes in.
The three best martial classes are in the CRB: The Ranger, the Barbarian, and the Paladin.
The martial classes released afterwards are the Cavalier (better than teh Fighter, worse than those 3), the Ninja (better than the Rogue, but worse than those 3), the Gunslinger (better than the Fighter, and about on par with those 3, but with admittedly wonky mechanics), and maybe teh Magus/Inquisitor/Alchemist (better than those 3 overall but only by virtue of having 6 level casting).
Where's the creep?
Power Creep is not "better than the worst options", you know.
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Power creep and new classes always means some things get left behind. I know a pf dm that is disgusted with the creep. This guy used to be a pf fanboy, now he shakes his head and sighs.I liked the beta fighter a fair bit.
I'm a bit confused as to where the creep comes in.
The three best martial classes are in the CRB: The Ranger, the Barbarian, and the Paladin.
The martial classes released afterwards are the Cavalier (better than teh Fighter, worse than those 3), the Ninja (better than the Rogue, but worse than those 3), the Gunslinger (better than the Fighter, and about on par with those 3, but with admittedly wonky mechanics), and maybe teh Magus/Inquisitor/Alchemist (better than those 3 overall but only by virtue of having 6 level casting).
Where's the creep?
Power Creep is not "better than the worst options", you know.
I think the power creep isn't so much new more powerful classes, it's that those three classes got huge boosts the fighter didn't. The barbarian rage powers in the CRB are nothing compared to the APG and UC ones (APG especially). The ranger and paladin have gotten a ton of neat spells (instant enemy, hero's defiance, litany of righteousness). A vanilla CRB barbarian is on par with the fighter combat wise, not ahead, but he still has a much greater out of combat utility.
Yep.
New class ideas means new abilities for new classes, or new abilities for some older classes (some will always lose out in this unbalancing updating). New abilities means boosts, more options and hybridised classes. Like the alchemist with elixir of life at 16th level. True resurrection or instant-resurrection. What, is the alchemist a high level cleric now too? Don't forget it is instantly in effect for the alchemist that drinks it, then dies and is auto resurrected.
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The skill thing is overstated. Be a human, put your favored class bonus into skills, and have an int of 13 (which opens up that combat expertise line, anyway). Boom! You've got five skill points/level.
And an inferior character. What would a fighter need combat expertise for? Combat maneuvers? A monk can do that better. AC? Heck a rogue with a one level fighter dip could beat you out for AC and still have tons of skills and abilities. Further proving that the fighter is a dip class.
Combat maneuvers, yes - which he can specialize in at low levels, and then then start trading out once they start becoming impractical, since he has the ability to trade out feats every four levels. He specializes in, say, tripping for early to mid levels, and then around level 8 starts trading those trip feats out for crit feats. Gosh, it's almost like the devs had PLANNED for this kind of build...
Plus the fighter doesn't even have acrobatics as a class skill and the main benefit of armor training is using acrobatics in heavier armor...
Skill focus: acrobatics. Boom. 1 feat (of which fighters get TONS), and you're actually BETTER off than someone who has it as a trained skill, since they won't get an EXTRA +3 at 10 ranks.
And I would say the main benefit of armor training is being able to wear adamantine armor instead of mithral armor, so as to pick up some DR without sacrificing mobility.
I think the power creep isn't so much new more powerful classes, it's that those three classes got huge boosts the fighter didn't. The barbarian rage powers in the CRB are nothing compared to the APG and UC ones (APG especially). The ranger and paladin have gotten a ton of neat spells (instant enemy, hero's defiance, litany of righteousness). A vanilla CRB barbarian is on par with the fighter combat wise, not ahead, but he still has a much greater out of combat utility.
Ah. I would argue that if that's classified as Creep, it's good Creep.
It pushes those classes closer to the top tier, giving them more versatility and overall more potential for fun, IMO.
There are several weakness here.1) 4 skill per level does not make any clas REALLY good in skills.
I'm not sure what your point is here - that having 2 more points than the fighter doesn't make them appreciably better? Okay then, we agree!
2) fighter are good at fighting, the sames at almost every other calss. Without going to far, paladins and barbarians. Why they can be good outside combat too. Fighters are not particulary better at figthing that the other classes.
The item that is specifically cited as being the case of fighters "not being good outside of combat" is their low number of skill points.
Paladins get exactly the same number of skill points, while also being more MAD than fighters are - why are they not considered so be "not good outside of combat?" Because they can HEAL? That's pretty much a combat ability (although many players choose to use it after combat, it's only real relevance is in terms of hitting other things and getting hit back). They get some spells, too, but they aren't utility spells, they're buff spells - everything that Paladins do revolves around combat.
Barbarians? Okay, they get two extra skill points. But ALL of their rage powers revolve around combat (we can tell this, because rage is measured in ROUNDS). They also don't have the surfeit of feats that fighters do (which allow fighters to spend some of their feats on skill-boosters).
Let me be clear: fighters will never be as BROAD in their skill sets as other classes. But they can pick up a few skills and be pretty competent (if not the ZOMG UBER BEST) at them.
3) What about other races? are they doomed to be dumb?
From the builds I see most people post... yeah, apparently.
But more seriously - halflings and elves get an int bonus, which is practically the same thing as getting +1 skill/level. Half-orcs can choose to put that extra +2 into int if they want.
And... I thought we were talking about classes, not races. Is your point that some races are better at picking up more skills than others? In which case: yes, I agree. Shall we get back to talking about fighters?
4) Using yout favored lcass bonus in skill make you weaker in combat. Now the human barbarian with int 13 is better at skill an also plain superior in hit points.
Are there that many human barbarians that put a 13 into int? I was under the impression that most optimized barb builds used int as a dump stat. I mean, I GUESS a barbarian could choose to do that, if he was built for the sole purpose of saying, "Nuh-UH! Barbarians can still have MORE skill points!" But at that point, he'd be hurting his own optimization, wouldn't he?
And you know how the fighter compensates for using his favored class bonus for skills instead of hp? A feat: Toughness. BOOM. He uses his main class feature (a bazillion feats) to allow him to pick up other options that aren't immediately apparent.
Gosh, it's almost like the devs INTENDED for the fighter to use his plethora of feats to allow him to branch out as a character...
Barbarians, they gain rage powers at te same rate fighters gains combat feats, a bad trade for fighters when you realize that rage powers tend to be just better than most combat feats.
It is rather telling that most Barbarian builds will end up trading away several of their feats to get extra rage powers.
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Um, you're totally missing out of combat utility.
A fighter swings a sword in combat. Out of combat, he doesn't swing a sword, and doesn't find the skill useful.
In combat, a paladin can cast many spells, heal, remove conditions. Out of combat, he can cast spells, heal, remove conditions...and make magic items, among other things.
Charisma is a power stat for paladins, not a dump stat. And Diplomacy is a class skill.
Toughness is not a combat feat. Fighters can't take it any more easily then any other class. It's funny how fighters can buy, um, +1 to CMD vs combat manuvers, and paladins can buy Energy Resistance, and Barbarians +1/3 to all svs vs magic. Yeah, balanced.
Barbarian rage powers enhance their stats. They can learn to cleave through spells. The two extra skill points makes it easier to invest in survival. Hey, they get acrobatics, and fighters don't. They can Strength Surge and rip open hillsides. They can eventually fly as a class ability.
Rangers are like paladins, except they can train their animal companion to help them flank and aid them in fighting, too. Oh, and they get 6 skill points and knowledge skills, woot woot.
There is nothing in the fighter CLASS that is applicable as a boost outside of combat, Even his bonus feats must be all combat feats. Ugh. Any argument made by race or general feats is invalid on its face ...none of that is part of the fighter class. It's like arguing casters aren't powerful because you can take UMD, a silly argument.
===Aelryinth
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This is what we did for the fighter and rogue class:
Fields of Expertise
(we have a bunch of more fields that aren't in the writeup too, but that doc shows what it's about).
The tl;dr is that you choose one specific profession or field where you are experienced - you could be a noble, or having worked a lot with merchants, or be a scholar.
Then you get skill bonuses for key skills in that field, as well as a bonus to social skills when interacting with people of that field, and a few lesser special abilities for flavor.
For example, a 4th level Aristocratic fighter gets this in addition to the usual fighter stuff:
+2 bonus to checks in bluff, diplomacy, knowledge (history), knowledge (local), and knowledge (nobility), and these are considered class skills.
+2 to intimidate and sense motive checks when dealing with aristocracy and nobility.
Abilities:
3/day, you may instantly roll an "improve attitude" check against an NPC.
1250 gp of non-combat mundane items that are not included when counting WBL (stuff like luxorous clothing etc)
+10 bonus on knowledge checks dealing with who's related to who and what relationships the upper classes have.
When entering a new settlement, she has a 5% chance to have a noble she knows there, a useful ally with a disposition of "friendly".
Meanwhile a 4th level Law Enforcement fighter would have:
+2 bonus to diplomacy, intimidate, knowledge (local), perception and sense motive and these are class skills.
+2 bonus on bluff checks when dealing with law enforcement.
Abilities:
+4 on checks vs disguises or illusions, may "interact" with illusion as an immediate action.
You know all relevant laws at a given time of any larger juridical body, and have to make a low-DC knowledge check to know of it in smaller societies.
These aren't huge bonuses, and even though 1/2 level to bluff or diplomacy might seem powerful they mostly counterweight the low skill points per level and meager charisma of most fighters. +1/2 level to perception is of course powerful, but I think a law enforcement fighter SHOULD be good at spotting stuff - and it's not like the other abilities are overwhelmning.
I take it you've never heard of the Beast Totem Rage Power?
After some research, I found that this apparently does apply to weapon iteratives, as per an FAQ from early last year.
...so, yeah, that's broken as hell.Unless he has any of the myriad ways of overcoming fatigue, of course, from status removing spells, to a Cord of Stubborn Resolve attached to his regular item, to the 3 or 4 ways he can just gain immunity to Fatigue or negate it once per day in the first place (a single level of Lame Oracle, for example).
That's actually a 5 level dip for fatigue immunity (which also kills your move speed buff) and the item you mentioned takes up your belt slot. If you want to toss slotless items into the pot, okay, but that's gonna make things complicated. Lesser Resto helps, but then if we're including plenty of consumables and/or friendly healer support, I don't see how the fighter won't gain just as much out of the whole deal, really. Other than that, no, I guess I haven't heard of some of these other ways of making fatigue irrelevant. What are they?
That's actually a 5 level dip for fatigue immunity (which also kills your move speed buff) and the item you mentioned takes up your belt slot. If you want to toss slotless items into the pot, okay, but that's gonna make things complicated. Lesser Resto helps, but then if we're including plenty of consumables and/or friendly healer support, I don't see how the fighter won't gain just as much out of the whole deal, really. Other than that, no, I guess I haven't heard of some of these other ways of making fatigue irrelevant. What are they?Unless he has any of the myriad ways of overcoming fatigue, of course, from status removing spells, to a Cord of Stubborn Resolve attached to his regular item, to the 3 or 4 ways he can just gain immunity to Fatigue or negate it once per day in the first place (a single level of Lame Oracle, for example).
ahem
An oracle’s curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle
Its a one level dip iirc because you add half char level to curses? I think.
And a wand of lesser restoration costs 750 gp outside of PFS.
Also, dont forget that halforc barbarians can have infinite rage rounds.
Though id like to add that armor training is hardly useless even with mediocre dexterity. While a paladin has a -7 ACP and cant use acrobatics in full plate, a fighter has -5 and can. Thats very useful. Not to mention the 10ft difference in movement speed for nondwarves.
Its a one level dip iirc because you add half char level to curses? I think.
And a wand of lesser restoration costs 750 gp outside of PFS.
Also, dont forget that halforc barbarians can have infinite rage rounds.
...wow, I completely missed that bit about curses. Ditto the half-orc rage favored class bonus. Cool.
For the wand, is this just about assuming that the GM allows that paladins are taking Craft Wand left and right?
Also, I think it bears repeating that the Fighter's bonus feats don't let him spend more feats on out-of-combat prowess, but instead give him a chance of being able to invest in the feat chains he requires to be useful in combat. Meanwhile, the Ranger can laugh at feat requirements, and the Paladin, Gunslinger, and Barbarian can operate with less feat investment.
After some research, I found that this apparently does apply to weapon iteratives, as per an FAQ from early last year.
...so, yeah, that's broken as hell.
I disagree. The only thing broken about it is that other characters can't have it. Getting rid of the whole "Martials suck if they have to move, meanwhile casters..." thing would go along way toward fixing this game's balance issues.
Besides, Beast Totem (not Greater) is the one I was talking about. It basically negates the AC penalty by 8th (and actually makes you GAIN AC while Raging after 12th level), though not the CMD one, true.
That's actually a 5 level dip for fatigue immunity (which also kills your move speed buff)
1 level, since Curses go up at half the rate with levels in other classes. And yeah it kills the move speed buff, but that's killed by medium armor (before Mithral) anyway, so not a huge loss. I like Fast Movement, but IMO negating the major downside of Rage is a better deal.
Hell, make it the Battle or Metal (I think) Mysteries and you can clip around in Full Plate at 30 ft. speed, provided it's Mithral.
and the item you mentioned takes up your belt slot.
Yes. It's expensive (22,500 if I recall), but you can get it tacked onto your usual belt (likely a Str/Con belt). Definitely a late game solution, but it exists.
Just wanted to point out that the Fatigue thing isn't as huge a downside as you make it out to be, though it requires some investment (less than a Fighter needs to increase his out of combat prowess, though =)).
Other than that, no, I guess I haven't heard of some of these other ways of making fatigue irrelevant. What are they?
Lessee, there's an Ioun Stone that does it, I think, but it has a hefty drawback if I remember right (I don't fiddle with them usually so I'm not clear on the mechanics of most of them) so we'll toss that one out.
5 levels of Martial Artist Monk is a hefty investment, but possibly worth it, and also opens up access to Weapon Specialization and a nifty ability that lets him (an unlimited number of times per day unless I'm mistaken) ignore DR/Hardness of his enemy as well as gain a +2 to attack rolls, or increase his AC/Reflex saves for a turn.
That's 4 already.
Then there's the aforementioned Wand of Lesser Restoration (50 charges for 750 gp, and it's not like you need to use it constantly either).
A Heart of the Fields Human can ignore it once per day. Ditto someone with the Country Born Feat but IMO that's a terribad option.
Oh! I remember what the Ioun Stone did now. It converts Fatigue to Sickened. Now, that sounds like a raw deal, but with a bit more investment into a Rage Power (can't recall the name ATM) you can be immune to the Sickened condition.
Yeah, there's quite a few.
^ Fully agreed on armor training 3/4. We mostly play e7 so we rarely see those; didnt think of them at all.
I disagree. The only thing broken about it is that other characters can't have it. Getting rid of the whole "Martials suck if they have to move, meanwhile casters..." thing would go along way toward fixing this game's balance issues.
Besides, Beast Totem (not Greater) is the one I was talking about. It basically negates the AC penalty by 8th (and actually makes you GAIN AC while Raging after 12th level), though not the CMD one, true.
Agree to disagree on full attacks, then. Full attacks start to be fantastically devastating once your party has haste and iterative attacks, such that it seems sensible to not allow them at all times. One of our high level parties invested in wands of Telekinetic Charge for use on the fighter and ranger; it promptly wrecked any semblance of a fair fight with the enemy unless they were massively templated and buffed-up demigods.
It wouldn't help touch AC either, but yeah, overall that would be a pretty nice AC buff. I might need to look at maybe playing a barbarian soon.
@Princeimhrail
1) terrible logc. 4 skills are not particulary impreive, 2 skills ARE certainly awful.
If you dump int and don't use favored class bonuses, then yeah, you are at a disadvantage. But you don't have to do those things. It's only terrible if you CHOOSE to limit yourself.
2) paladins do have sinergy with charisma makeing them good at social aspect of the game. And they have a lot of utility, and they still can hit hard.
And fighters have synergy with strength, making them good at the athletic (e.g. swimming and climbing) aspect of the game. Paladins have about the same utility as a fighter, because the vast majority of their powers are related to combat and, like the fighter, they get 2 skill pts/level.
Barbarians, they gain rage powers at te same rate fighters gains combat feats, a bad trade for fighters when you realize that rage powers tend to be just better than most combat feats.
There are some very good rage powers, but there are also some very good feats. This point we will have to just agree to disagree on, because I'm not interested in doing an exhaustive comparison of rage powers vs. feats.
So, woudl it be bad for fithers to have a couple of more skills? why people oppose to this?
I don't think it would destroy the game, but I don't see the need for a change. Fighters can do just fine if you sit down and use a little creativity (which, you know, is the cornerstone of the entire game). I also like that fighters are both very straightforward (i.e. pretty easy for a new player to pick up and use) and highly customizable. I don't think it's broken, so I don't think it needs to be fixed.
3) Halfing gains charisma not int. My ponts is that a barbarian can be of any race and still have more skill points than a human fighter that spend his favored class bonust skills. And then the barbarian have a great edge in hit points.
My mistake about halflings - though, if they get a boost to int, by you earlier logic about Paladins, that makes them "good at the social aspect of the game," so I think my point about them still stands.
As for the barbarian - yes, you ARE correct that the class gets more skill points than a fighter. That is an undisputed fact. The point I am making is that it's easy for a fighter to make up the difference because his feats give him a lot of leeway.
And the barbarian will ALWAYS have an edge in hit points - I hardly see how that's relevant. We're not talking about whether one class is "better" than another, we're talking about whether or not fighters can do a good job at fighting and still contribute out of combat, which they can.
4) Does not optimized fighters dump int and cha to the ground? how they have more skill points.
It depends on the fighter. Some fighters might well do that, but there are several fighter builds that make use of feats that require good int/charisma. It might be that you only build fighters like that, but that's a problem with your level of system mastery, not with the system.
For the record, with 20 PB my favorites tat distribution for fighters and barbarians is 16,14,14,14,12,8. So yeah, I try to make my mundane charcters actually good at mundane things.
I'd like to see you post a 7th level build for a barbarian with those stats. I'll go ahead and do one for a 7th level fighter, and we'll see how they measure up in terms of skills and combat effectiveness.
Human Fighter 7
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 8
HP: 74
AC: 25
Fort: +7 Ref: +4 Will: +3
DR 2/-
Skills (35): Acrobatics 5/+6, Climb 5/+11, Knowledge: Dungeoneering 3/+7, Survival 5/+9, Perception 5/+12, Diplomacy 5/+10, Intimidate 5/+7, Swim 2/+8
Feats (8): Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Toughness, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Cosmopolitan (Perception, Diplomacy) Skill Focus: Perception, Skill Focus: Diplomacy
Languages Known: 4
Relevant Abilities: Weapon Training, Armor Training
Combat Gear (there's a bit of cash leftover, but this seems like a decent approximation of how I would probably build it):
+1 Adamantine Breast Plate
Heavy Shield +2
+1 Weapon
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Attacks: +14/+9
Damage: 1d8+8
So here's a guy who is pretty good at talking to people, very competent in athletic areas, very good at spotting danger, and more than competent at surviving in the wild - heck, he can even contribute some knowledge about aberrations and oozes in a pinch. His per-strike damage isn't out of this world, but thanks to his tripping build, he can severely hamper enemies and keep them from getting at his allies (which is what he's supposed to be doing anyway). He's got a respectable AC and some DR, to boot, plus a solid number of hit points - he's not going to be taken down easily.
And the thing of its, he's probably going to be just as good, if not better than a barbarian of the same level (though I'll wait to see your build). He's going to have the same hit points as a barbarian using your "preferred" stat array until the barbarian rages (in which case, the barbarian is only going to pick up 14 more hp, so pretty comparable). His DR is actually going to be slightly better, his AC will definitely be better, and he'll have more tactical options in combat thanks to his feats.
A barbarian with your stat array will probably have an attack bonus that's equal to (possibly less than) Rhodey here, even while raging (+7 BAB +5 Str and +1 weapon). He'll probably be two-handing it, so he'll bring a little more pain (2d6+8 vs. 1d8+8) when Power Attack isn't factored in - which is a bit tricky to figure, since his attack bonus isn't that stellar.
And in terms of out-of-combat utility, he's going to probably be about as good (in some cases better) than your barbarian in those skills.
So like I said, I'll wait to see what kind of build you come up with, but it looks to me like using a little creativity can actually create a fighter that is just as good as contributing in and out of combat as a barbarian.
And I do thing the devs made amistake in this case, I will call it not just bad but terrible.
They do not really care about balance, at least not for fighters, rogues and monks.
I think the problem is with a lack of player creativity, not any design feature.