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Maybe the reason a lot of people who take the Test of the Starstone and die trying isn't always because the Stone or the Test kill them....
This.
It also fits that the Aboleth would want to study the source of power that
1) Destroyed their entire empire
2) Gave rise to that azlanti jerk Aroden.
It also feeds into my suspicions that the starstone is actually not a benevolent artifact but something extremely dangerous that as a by-product of its nature can give people divine power.
This really makes me want to write a 64-page fan adventure module centered around political intrigue of veiled masters operating in Absalom...
The case for Gyr being a Veiled Master is growing!
Now here's a question: how, if at all, does this interact with the high population of gillmen in Absalom? The gillmen of Escadar are portrayed as being generally very helpful, making accurate weather predictions for the sailors and the like, and in exchange they gain access to the Azlanti ruins in Escadar, and are said to worship the "broken statues of inhuman gods" in those ruins.
Let's presume that the gillmen are worshiping the aboleths. That seems reasonable, as the gillmen owe their existence to the aboleths, and furthermore there is no precedent for any other "inhuman" creature being venerated in Azlanti sculpture. The question becomes: are the Gillmen aware that one of their fabled masters controls the very placeholder city that they have settled in? And, if they are not already aware and willing servants of Gyr, what happens when they find out his identity?
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... probably not, and if any do become aware, they're likely going to be killed quickly and instantly, because that means the Veiled Master made a mistake.
Here's the thing, though: they don't ever need to know.
Gyr can pull strings and work those people over (a combination Demand and Illusion abilities means that they could firmly believe they're doing "their gods' work" (whatever that means) and all the while taking -4 penalties to his powers, and never know it. If he interacts with them, they'll take the penalties and they still don't even have to know.
In essence, by not revealing himself (even if he uses them), he's adding yet another layer of obfuscation, just in case people know about Aboleths and Gillmen (or ever bother to read any of their minds).
mind blank trumps true seeing ... the Veiled Masters (assuming that they are aboleths) are reasonably assessed at higher than a run-of-the-mill aboleth's CR 7 ... at 34 HD, just what kinds of nastiness does a CR 20 aboleth have access to?
Veiled Masters are definitely Aboleths, so I'm not sure what you mean by 34HD CR 20 creatures, unless you're just extrapolating generic monster HD/CRs? Most are CR 14 with 16 HD and a caster level like a 12th lvl sorcerer (reasonably increased to 16 with a few levels of pretty much any prestige class or straight up sorcerer class). They have an interesting suite of abilities that help prevent them from getting caught and control people (ranging from special attacks to special qualities, and spell-like abilities besides).
You have a good point about true seeing and mind blank (though the fact that mind blank calls out see invisibility but not true seeing is slightly odd). But being an 8th level spell, it's beyond the reach of even most Veiled Masters.
Lord Gyr could be advanced enough have access to 8th level spells (say, by having a few levels in, say, Cyphermage. Similarly, Mengkare, if you accept that he's a Veiled Master.
But again, they're still taking risks. Dispel Magic and its variants would be a reasonable preparation for such a battle, and is not a difficult-to-come-by spell, and that would pretty much ruin their day. As mentioned in their entries, they were able to exist in Azlant for ages without being noticed (and in Thassilon, divination wasn't really given the time of day), but there are still risks involved with being the 'ruler'-figure, regardless, and there's always the ability to just completely mess something up, meaning it's harder to justify or simply vanish if you're the ruler (which is why it says they tend to prefer to be the 'powers behind the throne').
Interestingly, Mengkare is both the absolute ruler and "the power behind the throne" (generally allowing a council to rule in most matters) for you conspiracy theorists out there.
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Lord Gyr is a level 13 rogue.
Why would a rogue take the title Spell Lord?
Contributor
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Lord Gyr is a level 13 rogue.
Why would a rogue take the title Spell Lord?
I think James Jacobs said that was a mistake (the class, not the title). Or at least there was a miscommunication.
But it is odd, isn't it?
Tangent: In the RW, fish seem to have played a major role in the Indus Valley Civilizations' culture or religion. Symbols showing fish with arms, or tentacles, or such appear as their most common symbol. Because their script is still undeciphered, there are a lot of theories about this (the symbol being a rebus for star (min), which is pronounced the same as fish (min) in Tamil, being one)... Fish from the stars?
Vaguely related conspiracy theory: I wonder if Khiben-Sald of Vudra is a veiled master. He apparently never died & doesn't age. And he's curiously involved in Nexian affairs. Also, the Vudrans (and their gods) claim to have been around since before Azlant. Odd.
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Just did a quick search of James' posts for "Lord Gyr".
It sounds like Gyr was originally meant to not be a rogue, but at this point he's a mythic rogue. I wonder how he got Mythic?
Interestingly, Gyr is a homage to Gary Gygax, the First DM. The guy who sat behind the DM's screen and controlled the fate of his world and the players...
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Just did a quick search of James' posts for "Lord Gyr".
It sounds like Gyr was originally meant to not be a rogue, but at this point he's a mythic rogue. I wonder how he got Mythic?
Interestingly, Gyr is a homage to Gary Gygax, the First DM. The guy who sat behind the DM's screen and controlled the fate of his world and the players...
Gyr is probably - if he's a rogue - also a homage to Gord the Rogue, Gygax's fictional character.
I saw that in the quick search as well. Interesting...
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Not sure where, but I'd consider it likely there is one near Outsea.
Amazing thread. Thanks, everybody!
And now, I'm very suspicious of the real reason Ostog remains yet Unslain.
Another candidate from Golarion history- Choral Rogarvia. The Conqueror's got 2 red dragons up his sleeve, unites Brevoy, and then his noble house- to a member- vanishes 200 years later?
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Tar-Baphon?
I always saw the emphasis of Tar-Baphon's evil being the same career track of a lot of horrible despots: an inconspicuous nobody who slowly became more evil and relevant until it all boiled over at once and everybody wondered why no one saw it coming. I think it kind of cheapens his brand of "this was once a man" evil to make him an aboleth.
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Ever since the "City of Serpents" chapter of Eando Kline's story my theory is that Gest was an agent (possibly unwitting) of the Serpentfolk along with the (mostly unwitting) Pathfinder Society.
** spoiler omitted **...
Seriously Paizo, this post deserves some sort of conspiracy theorist NPC named in its honor. ;)
Anyone mention Artokus Kirran yet? (inventor of the Sun Orchid Elixir)
The guy figures out how to make normal people effectively immortal then vanishes into a vault where the only outside contact he has is with "blind, mute servants" who deliver the six vials of the elixir that no one else in Golarion appears to be able to replicate.
Unless it's not actually an elixir and is an alchemical variant of the aboleth mucous... if the only way to make it is to be an aboleth strung out on Sun Orchid juice, that would explain why nobody else has figured it out.
-TimD
Tar-baphon will have to be freed to save the world...theres no way he would become a veiled master lap dog..gallowspire would shudder at the concept of the great one serving in the the veiled court...wait..maybe Tar-bapon is not under gallowspire...maybe he never was
mind blank trumps true seeing ... the Veiled Masters (assuming that they are aboleths) are reasonably assessed at higher than a run-of-the-mill aboleth's CR 7 ... at 34 HD, just what kinds of nastiness does a CR 20 aboleth have access to?Veiled Masters are definitely Aboleths, so I'm not sure what you mean by 34HD CR 20 creatures, unless you're just extrapolating generic monster HD/CRs? Most are CR 14 with 16 HD and a caster level like a 12th lvl sorcerer (reasonably increased to 16 with a few levels of pretty much any prestige class or straight up sorcerer class). They have an interesting suite of abilities that help prevent them from getting caught and control people (ranging from special attacks to special qualities, and spell-like abilities besides).
You have a good point about true seeing and mind blank (though the fact that mind blank calls out see invisibility but not true seeing is slightly odd). But being an 8th level spell, it's beyond the reach of even most Veiled Masters.
I'm referring to the typical upscaling of a critter from racial hit dice advancement. Take an 8 HD/CR 7 aboleth and scale up its innate powers et al all the way to 34 HD/CR 20. Along the same lines of how fiends and celestials 'upgrade' massively from lower CR up to ~CR 20. In short, if a Veiled Master Aboleth scales purely on racial HD advancement, they're going to have extremely formidable abilities. If a Veiled Master is on par with a nascent demon lord, we're stalking some serious kinds of nasty.
mind blank stops "all devices and spells [that are] divination magic." It lists see invisibility as an example. mind blank even "foils limited wish, miracle and wish when used to gather information about the target".
Targeting someone with a dispel magic is rarely subtle. Two rings of counterspells is a pittance for a Veiled Master - load one with dispel magic and one with greater dispel magic solves the "pouf your mind blank is gone" tactic. More likely, the caster is far from a sufficiently high CL to punch it through the Veiled Master's dispel DC in the first place.
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So Cheapy says to me in PM, “Dude, I thought you would be all over this thread!?”
And I think to myself, “Dude, whatever I suggest, James Jacobs will make is untrue. Just read any message board exchange we have, ever. ”
And then it occurs to me, maybe that’s his plan. That’s how he fools me.
(Kidding James!)
Okay Cheapy, the next couple are for you, kid.
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White Estrid.
Now hear me out.
1.) She already looks kinda weird, as a not-quite-albino with blue eyes.
2.) She beats up an ice linnorm and makes it her thrall for life.
3.) If you look back to circa 2009, this could be the second linnorm she’s defeated. Yet there is no information or evidence on the second linnorm. I grant you that is anecdotal in of itself, but let’s be honest. All of this is circumstantial. So look at the number of unanswered questions.
4.) She defeats Boiltongue (and/or the mysterious other linnorm) with a “mysterious weapon”. Said “mysterious weapon” is never produced or explained, except it was granted by “earth spirits”. I know, you probably want to swarm over the fact it says earth spirits. “Jim, aboleths live in the water and the book says earth spirits!” But you know? Stop and think. This is warrior culture where powerful leaders build their personal legends. Part and parcel of any good warrior legend is the personal signature weapon. Like Thor and Mjoiner. So where is this mysterious weapon? What is the mysterious weapon? For all you kids know she could have gotten it from ice cream spirits, because you don’t know a damn thing about it. Really. And I call that odd. And aboleths are dishonest and make stuff up.
5.) There is no strong centralized religion in the Land of the Linnorm Kings. Yes, yes, yes, there is religion. There is almost everywhere. But it’s less of a political force. That’s the problem with some of the Cheliax theories.
6.) She’s in position to have a strong naval presence.
7.) She’s in charge of the second largest settlement in the Land of the Linnorm Kings. The Linnorm King’s unique political structure makes for divided rule between the various kings, but that could work to a veiled master’s advantage. She has control of a large population, but has contact with the other nation’s rulers without the burden of having to manage it all.
8.) In 4704, she attacks Nisroch as a “pirate raider”. Nisroch? Oh the overflowing streets of Nisroch, how your streets are paved with gold? More like the aboleths wanted to shake the Umbral Court up because those zealot freaks make it hard for even their infiltrators to operate. (Although, this is the same year she becomes a Linnorm King, so if this completely wrong it could be an interesting alternate idea regarding where the “mysterious weapon” comes from—albino girl).
9.) And she’s politically connected. “Runewulf the Unbeliever is the commander of the Graycloaks, the district guard of Absalom's Ascendant Court. A human of Ulfen heritage, he is the cousin of the famous White Estrid, king of the Linnorm Kingdom of Halgrim. He is known as "the Unbeliever", due to his inability to believe in anything that he can't hear or see. This fact makes Runewulf an ideal choice for district guard captain for the Ascendant Court, as he cannot be accused of showing favor to any one of the countless religions practiced there.” So… let me get this straight. Her well connected cousin in Absalom just so happens to be…oh.. an atheist? isn’t that special?!?
White Estrid. Have at it.
Here's a solution for some of you.
EVERYONE IS A VEILED MASTER!!
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Razmir!
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Forgive me, I'm a little punch drunk.
Let's have another!
I think Erik Mona developed White Estrid, but our own Rob McCreary cooked this up:
Ilizmagorti is ruled by the Mayor of Ilizmagorti. No one knows the Mayor’s name, or if this mysterious being is man or woman, human or otherwise. Though anyone can request an audience with the Mayor by joining the line outside the disused lighthouse on Mayor’s Island, the Mayor wears a different face for each visitor, and indeed for each time the same visitor seeks an audience. The Mayor can be a wizened old crone, a handsome elven gentlemen, a twinkling-eyed gnome, or even a child. Yet regardless of appearance, the Mayor always remembers past conversations and judgments. In truth, the Mayor of Ilizmagorti is a shapeshifter (perhaps a doppelganger of great skill or an even stranger creature) and loyal member of the Vernai, the secretive cabal that rules the Red Mantis organization. Like all members of the Vernai, the Mayor has no name other than its title. Its ability to change its shape allows the Mayor to wander the city incognito, giving it unprecedented knowledge of the daily goings-on within Ilizmagorti.
You know the best way to hide a conspiracy?
You set it inside an alternative and competing conspiracy.
Unofficially, the Red Mantis have built relationships in almost every government, royal court, church, guild, and merchant house in Avistan or Garund. Very little takes place in the halls of power and wealth that the Red Mantis is not aware of, a fact that is not lost on the same governments and groups that might otherwise wish to eradicate the assassin cult.
That's where I would want to infiltrate, because the mystery and the infrastructure of the Red Mantis is self-sustaining. The information flows to you naturally, just as every expects it will. You know there's a secret there, but you're predisposed to look for the wrong secret.
Plus the Mantis habit of accepting or declining any mission without cause? And setting their own, sometimes unconditional price, which may in of itself be another manipulation? If anything, when humans are desperate to kill someone in power, its a blip on the radar to be aware of...
You'd never suspect Brainiac to be disguised as Ra's al Ghul.
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Oh my goodness, this thread.
White Estrid the Aboleth. I never thought I'd ever hear those words!
Rathendar brought up the point that Gyr being mythic might point to him NOT being a crabpeopl--- Aboleth in Disguise. I suppose that his mythic abilities explains his rapid ascent to power, but not why he took a title of Spell Lord. This all depends on how he became mythic, which I'm guessing we'll see in the Campaign Setting book supporting Mythic Adventures.
It's a bluff!
Think about it, the Aboleths put out a rumor that says some leaders may be secret Aboleths. What better way is there to make a human population distrust their leaders after all?
It's genius.
You are the winner of this thread. Congratulations!
Rathendar brought up the point that Gyr being mythic might point to him NOT being a crabpeopl--- Aboleth in Disguise. I suppose that his mythic abilities explains his rapid ascent to power, but not why he took a title of Spell Lord. This all depends on how he became mythic, which I'm guessing we'll see in the Campaign Setting book supporting Mythic Adventures.
Unless he's a mythic aboleth. It would explain why they've never been able to nail down what his class/level is, outside of his mythic component. I believe his quoted classes changed between the Absalom and the Inner Sea Magic books too. It could just be changing gears and concepts, or he could be the Aboleth Candidate.
Turin: I'm not sure we're even having the same conversation.
Veiled Masters are definitely Aboleths, so I'm not sure what you mean by 34HD CR 20 creatures, unless you're just extrapolating generic monster HD/CRs? Most are CR 14 with 16 HD and a caster level like a 12th lvl sorcerer (reasonably increased to 16 with a few levels of pretty much any prestige class or straight up sorcerer class). They have an interesting suite of abilities that help prevent them from getting caught and control people (ranging from special attacks to special qualities, and spell-like abilities besides).
You have a good point about true seeing and mind blank (though the fact that mind blank calls out see invisibility but not true seeing is slightly odd). But being an 8th level spell, it's beyond the reach of even most Veiled Masters.
I'm referring to the typical upscaling of a critter from racial hit dice advancement. Take an 8 HD/CR 7 aboleth and scale up its innate powers et al all the way to 34 HD/CR 20. Along the same lines of how fiends and celestials 'upgrade' massively from lower CR up to ~CR 20. In short, if a Veiled Master Aboleth scales purely on racial HD advancement, they're going to have extremely formidable abilities. If a Veiled Master is on par with a nascent demon lord, we're stalking some serious kinds of nasty.
mind blank stops "all devices and spells [that are] divination magic." It lists see invisibility as an example. mind blank even "foils limited wish, miracle and wish when used to gather information about the target".
Um... I linked to and quoted mind blank in my post, so why would you quote it back to me, especially using the example that I gave in my own of "see invisibility"? I'm definitely aware of how it works. I even noted that you had a point while noting its oddity. So... yes, you're right that True Seeing would foil divination, I'm not saying otherwise. Is that what you were looking for? As far as dispel magic goes: again, Veiled Masters, being what they are, don't have any more automatic access to Mind Blank than other creatures of roughly their own power level. Ergo, dispel magic works as a valid tactic.
Also, Turin, did you at all check out my link to the Veiled Masters entry in the d20pfsrd? You really need to read that entry before continuing this conversation.
Certainly, one could upgrade an aboleth's CR by increasing his HD, but Veiled Masters are more powerful than simply increased HD Aboleths - they've got more HD (specifically 16 compared to 8), but they also have spellcasting (as if they were 12th lvl sorcerers) and a number of very potent special attacks and special qualities (most notably being their Change Shape ability, which allows them any small or medium form as with greater polymorph*).
What I was trying to say is that a Veiled Masters is a very specific already-statted out variant of an Aboleth. If you're going to extrapolate and go up to 34 HD or whatsoever you like, go from that one, not the base Aboleth creature.
Link to it's stats, if you want. If you compare, they're better than a typical Aboleth in every way (which makes sense).
You're point that a unique 34 HD one could exist is completely valid, however, if true, we're not talking about the normal 16 HD Veiled Masters running around everywhere anymore - we're talking about a creature on par with demigods, demon lords, and the most ancient of dragons. That's why I'm not quite sure where this conversation is headed, or what your suggesting, exactly, as you seem to be presuming they're mostly beyond-twenty HD creatures, when the majority of them are 16 HD creatures with access to 6th level and lower sorcerer spells (which, by the way, makes them still incredibly potent and more than capable of toppling many empires and countries). Look at Razmir: he's able to pull off the "I'm a god" con while being a 19th level sorcerer.
My point is, if we're going to talk about tweaking a creature, it seems to make sense to start with the creature we're actually talking about. The difference between an Aboleth and a Veiled Masters is the difference between, say, a young dragon and an adult dragon (without the implied promise of more powerful age categories). They're the same creature, but kind of start to look substantially different after they've hit the other stage.
Also, literally hit any time I've written the words "Veiled Masters" in this post, as I'm pretty sure I've now linked all of them to the same d20pfsrd page, just in case the link doesn't work.
It's just... I get the feeling that we're not talking about the same category of creature, which makes this conversation difficult.
Sorry about this you conspiracy guys, but I'm just realizing that their Change Shape ability's limits effectively rules out Mengkare, actually; now that I've reread it they can only become any small or medium form, which, unless one of them has figured out something strange, means Mengkare is off the list.
That doesn't mean that aboleths and Veiled Masters aren't working on infiltrating or tearing down his project (as it may conflict with their own, or it may be they just hate the idea of a free willed group of similar creatures). So the plot thickens around him.
EDIT: And Mr. Groves, I love the mayor of Ilmizagorti. That's... beautiful, right there.
Is there any more information on the Vernai? I presume most are humanoid, but you never know...
Another note on conspiracies: I could even see the veiled master being part of a "conspiracy" run out of shape shifters (like Eberron's cabinet of faces) except, of course, said shapeshifting conspiracy is nothing but a front to mislead those looking for a shapeshifting conspiracy. This is the kind of multi-leveled stuff I could definitely see a Veiled Master get behind, too.
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Oh ho, they have a stat block? I had not noticed that which is my mistake. I was more referring to a 'what if the stat block was extrapolated past aboleth starting point'.
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The Veiled Master's Change Shape ability's limits effectively rule out Mengkare, actually; now that I've reread it they can only become any Small or Medium form, which, unless one of them has figured out something strange, means Mengkare is off the list.
So much for that idea. Then again, I'm not one of the people who liked it ;D
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It's a bluff!
Think about it, the Aboleths put out a rumor that says some leaders may be secret Aboleths. What better way is there to make a human population distrust their leaders after all?
It's genius.
Isn't that kind of what happened in Mendev during the 3rd Crusade? The demons from the Worldwound decided full frontal assault wasn't working and tried infiltrating local leaderships which resulted in the populace having distrust of each other?
I can see demons doing that, but I think aboleths might be more secretive. Why even bring up the possibility and put the thought in people's heads? Better for them to squash any such ideas I would think.
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Some of these suggestions make me wonder if some of these people, if they are indeed aboleths-in-disguise, don't know that they are and are behaving according to some more subliminal preparation. Brainwash themselves, remove any obvious knowledge of their mission, but have their actions guided by an underlying hypnotic suggestion or something like that.
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The Veiled Master's Change Shape ability's limits effectively rule out Mengkare, actually; now that I've reread it they can only become any Small or Medium form, which, unless one of them has figured out something strange, means Mengkare is off the list.So much for that idea. Then again, I'm not one of the people who liked it ;D
Most BBEG aboleths aren't just pulled straight from the Bestiary/PRD, they pile levels of a character class on top of those stats. I would imagine its a rare veiled master that doesn't have class levels. As such, posing as a dragon shouldn't be hard for a veiled master with a high level in a spell casting class.
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Like rogue. Rogue would work well for a veiled master.
While I'm not a fan of Mengkare being evil (I strongly prefer the lawful good), it is to bad that conspiracy theorists are set back a notch. :)
Oh ho, they have a stat block? I had not noticed that which is my mistake. I was more referring to a 'what if the stat block was extrapolated past aboleth starting point'.
No worries! I've done the same thing. Also, either my search-fu is very weak or something is strange on d20pfsrd, because I can't simply search for them.
But based on pure extrapolation/guessing (with no other guidelines), I'd otherwise likely have agreed with you. :)
Now, their mysterious masters deep beneath the sea, on the other hand...
Some of these suggestions make me wonder if some of these people, if they are indeed aboleths-in-disguise, don't know that they are and are behaving according to some more subliminal preparation. Brainwash themselves, remove any obvious knowledge of their mission, but have their actions guided by an underlying hypnotic suggestion or something like that.
This... is actually pretty brilliant. It's also the perfect way of making sure that everything comes together with no possible outside interference. A manipulator who, for some reason, forget's he's the manipulator? You can't really get much better than that, because even if you're susceptible to divination magic you'll deceive it by not knowing that you're not telling the truth.
I could even see something like, say, implanted ioun stones being crafted with special properties: there's a whole other "alternate personality" that "goes to sleep" every once in a while, allows the original personality to do stuff, and then "wakes up" later with perfectly logical (and, for the most part, provable by divination) magic. If said implanted stone had the property that it hid itself from magic (perhaps mindblank on itself only, and was embedded invisibly instead of just on the surface), it would definitely be an incredibly potent infiltration tool.
Granted, such means would be extraordinarily uncommon, regardless of who's building this, but in those few cases where you'd have a Veiled Master "Devoted Enough" (or required by their "even more dangerous masters in the depths", I could see this happening.
It's a bluff!
Think about it, the Aboleths put out a rumor that says some leaders may be secret Aboleths. What better way is there to make a human population distrust their leaders after all?
It's genius.
Isn't that kind of what happened in Mendev during the 3rd Crusade? The demons from the Worldwound decided full frontal assault wasn't working and tried infiltrating local leaderships which resulted in the populace having distrust of each other?
I can see demons doing that, but I think aboleths might be more secretive. Why even bring up the possibility and put the thought in people's heads? Better for them to squash any such ideas I would think.
Yes and no. I'd suggest it depends entirely on the area people are in. If there's somewhere they can' infiltrate effectively for some reason (say, a super-powered Gold Dragon destroys them if they even try), than it's in their best interests to begin suggesting... other things. Among those, suggesting a powerful conspiracy that doesn't exist is actually really good. Because if people are looking really hard for the conspiracy that isn't there, and ultimately that conspiracy, say, destroys something extremely valuable and/or important, and is later proven completely empty (perhaps with more suggestions), well, then, the guilt, shame, and disgrace will help people "learn their lesson" and be far more trusting of those totally benevolent souls who come in after the fact to help put the pieces together.
On the other hand, such suggestions might be counter-productive in many (probably even most) cases. But especially in locales where their foes already know they exist, making a screen of activity that isn't actually there could make their job easier later.
Alternatively, alternatively... some third party who hates Aboleths and desires instability in <insert government here> could be working to completely undermine all parties.
I would imagine its a rare veiled master that doesn't have class levels.
The only part of your statement I disagree with is this. Most Veiled Masters likely don't have class levels for the same reason most pit fiends, nymphs, babau, succubi, and the like don't have class levels (and, similarly for the reason most non-adventurers don't have adventuring class levels): they don't need them. Veiled Masters are already 12th level casters; masters of disguise, mental manipulation, and illusion; and fully capable on their own. Class levels aren't necessary for most of them.
And besides, Veiled Masters aren't the "top" of the aboleth "hierarchy" (if one could call it that). That goes to some other mysterious figures (which, if the pattern holds true, likely do have either twenty-four [adding 8] or thirty-two [doubling] hit dice plus their own list of awful abilities. Like maybe calling down destruction from the heavens.
However, there are likely some who do have classes (as you pointed out: most BBEGs do so, and a number of lesser creatures as well), and those would be exceptionally dangerous. As I noted above, a Veiled Master who took four levels of Cypher Mage would have access to 8th level spells (like mind blank, incidentally).
And yeah: rogue would be a very solid "pull" for a sneaky, stealthy, manipulative-type creature. :)
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I would imagine its a rare veiled master that doesn't have class levels.The only part of your statement I disagree with is this. Most Veiled Masters likely don't have class levels for the same reason most pit fiends, nymphs, babau, succubi, and the like don't have class levels (and, similarly for the reason most non-adventurers don't have adventuring class levels): they don't need them.
Class levels or advanced HD aren't really necessary for the CR 20 Iathavos, but the bestiary entry makes it clear that the Iathavos, unless a "newborn" often has advanced HD, and on occasion has class levels as well (usually as a sorcerer).
Dot.
This thread makes me purr.
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Seriously Paizo, this post deserves some sort of conspiracy theorist NPC named in its honor. ;)Ever since the "City of Serpents" chapter of Eando Kline's story my theory is that Gest was an agent (possibly unwitting) of the Serpentfolk along with the (mostly unwitting) Pathfinder Society.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thank you. I try.
How about Amenopheus, the Sapphire Sage as a veiled master?
* He is from Osirion, which has an established history of Mythos-critter involvement in politics.
* We don't know anything really about the Jeweled Sages except they advised the Pharaohs of old, were disbanded with Osirion was conquered, and were reinstated recently by the Ruby Prince. If the Jeweled Sages of Ancient Osirion had the ear of the Pharaohs that would be an idea place for a veiled master to set up shop. When they were reinstated it would be the perfect time to sneak someone in if there wasn't an agent in place already.
* He may have been alive during ancient times, which means he is incredibly long lived and has been advising behind the scenes for a long time and/or is an impostor taking the form of a trusted adviser. Either one works for a veiled master.
* He serves as an adviser to a member of the Grand Council of Abasalom, which is the sort of behind-the-scenes public position a veiled master would favor.
*Osirion is probably the one place where no one would question a mysterious, seemingly ageless adviser. The current Ruby Prince is apparently the one who restored the Jeweled Sages, and he's focused pretty heavily on the "politics of the elementals of the desert", which might make it a bit easier for a veiled master to slip into a position of trust under the proverbial radar since the Prince is focusing his attention elsewhere. Especially if he wants to manipulate the Prince into sending him to Absalom to deal with issues the Prince is too busy to handle himself. All the power and authority without all the oversight that comes from living near the leader of a nation.
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Class levels or advanced HD aren't really necessary for the CR 20 Iathavos, but the bestiary entry makes it clear that the Iathavos, unless a "newborn" often has advanced HD, and on occasion has class levels as well (usually as a sorcerer).I would imagine its a rare veiled master that doesn't have class levels.The only part of your statement I disagree with is this. Most Veiled Masters likely don't have class levels for the same reason most pit fiends, nymphs, babau, succubi, and the like don't have class levels (and, similarly for the reason most non-adventurers don't have adventuring class levels): they don't need them.
... your argument is that because a specified, unique creature behaves in a certain way, a generic kind of creature must generally behave in the same way, when we've a number of counter-examples to that?
The Iathavos is a unique creature (or rather an iterative set of unique creatures). It tending to have class levels is like the Tarrasque tending to have unbeatable regeneration: it's a function of the unique creature and its place in the cosmos rather than a standard template by which more mundane creatures follow.
Besides. The Iathavos is about ending worlds by itself. It needs them. The Veiled Masters are about manipulating nations with help. They usually don't. Different tiers entirely of what they seek to accomplish.
My point wasn't to disregard your entire post, but rather to point out that most Veiled Masters can complete their objectives literally right-out-of-the-box, no levels needed. Ergo, they probably aren't leveled. Certainly there are Veiled Masters who are leveled... just as there are nymphs who've dipped into sorcery, or pit fiends who are inquisitors, or babau that are rogues, or succubi that are bards. But those are unique creatures, generally gaining levels because they need them for specific purposes (like adventurers do).
Looking at the Iathavos as a counter example... it's fearsome indeed, but class levels are probably needed to round it out before it can take on entire mortal worlds.
To clarify: most BBEGs in a campaign aren't your standard monsters. Agreed. They are differentiated in ways other than motives by granting them class levels. Agreed.
That doesn't translate to the majority of Veiled Masters (whose innate abilities take care of most things a BBEG would need anyway) automatically having additional class levels.
Anyway...
Are there other gem sages? I like the points you raise AT.
As far as Rakshasa... yes, though I think that many Rakshasa may be on the slightly losing end... if it weren't for the disadvantages that Aboleths and Veiled Masters come with (the former being mostly water-locked, the latter being revealed by being in water and presumably much rarer).
It may very well be Rakshasa who are spreading the ideas of conspiracy theories about Veiled Masters, and even over (as just one example) Mengkare... being as they'd hate the idea of super-human creatures who don't have to suffer through the reincarnation cycle as they do and who might be too potent for them to conquer one day.
What's interesting is that Aboleths - paying absolutely no attention to gods or the like - and Rakshasas - being so immersed in religious and spiritual thought in general as opposed to the secular - might, in fact, be mostly unaware of each other. Their shadow wars could easily play out as opposing mysterious infiltrating forces that neither truly understand or can truly pin down, being so alien in thought and nature, even as they're so similar in function and style. Heck, they might even have infiltrated each others groups without fully realizing it.
(I could just envision a hidden Veiled Master manipulating a hidden Rakshasa ruler who, of course, is manipulating its Veiled Master vizier, both of them using their other shadow-cronies to fight against the others' shadow-cronies and neither quite realizing what's going on...)
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I heart this thread.
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Interesting! Does it have anything else about her?
Yeah. On tablet Atm but shes a big deal.
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Anyway...
Are there other gem sages? I like the points you raise AT.
The only mention of the Jeweled Sages I've found was in the write-up for Amenopheus himself. So there's not enough published information to make any real claims about how sinister/benign they are as an organization, or how they operate.
That being said, the description of Amenopheus in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide could be considered a little veiled master-ish though:
This time-weathered Garundi sage is supposedly the advisor to an obese Osirian noble named Dremdhet Salhar, who sits on the Grand Council of Absalom, but in truth, the fat noble never utters a sentence not planted in his mind by the Sapphire Sage first. Few are aware of the sage’s true role, and many of the agents serving him think they work for another spymaster.
All the descriptions of the Ruby Prince describe him as being "withdrawn" and focused on the various planar/elemental pacts, that he rarely deals with any of his advisers beyond his invisible fire elemental friend, and that he leaves most of the responsibility for running the kingdom to the Council of Sun and Sky (which is noted as being "mixture of corrupt bureaucrats and idealistic reformers" prone to in-fighting).
This is definitely a situation where a veiled master could thrive. It could easily rise to power by playing corrupt and idealistic bureaucrats against each other. Since it wanted to be assigned to a foreign city it could probably get a lot of Council support from corrupt members who want to remove a potential rival by sending him far away from court, and idealistic members who want to "put the best person in charge" of foreign holdings.
Just how closely is the Ruby Prince going to look at an adviser with broad Council support and a history of loyal service before sending him off to assist the Grand Councilor?
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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One of the disappointments I have had with secrets in this setting is how the Katapesh Pactmaster's true identity was revealed in a setting book. I hope Veiled Masters are not given the same treatment. If any of them are revealed, I hope it is part of an AP.
If the identity of the Pactmasters wasn't already established, I would argue that they are Veiled Masters. Even with what is established, a Veiled Master as a Pactmaster is an interesting idea. First, while no one know what they really are, no one dares to try and find out for fear of disappearing or being killed. However, the Pactmasaters have done such a great job at making the city rich and safe that no one actually cares. The Pact Masters have their own golem army, powered by souls, and have special agents that have been implanted with artifacts to keep them loyal. They control trade in the region, and practically control the global slave trade. As a result, their wealth is immense and while they appear to be detracted from the rest of the world, they could easily use it covertly to influence anyone they wanted.
Who are the Pactmasters? Which book revealed that?
I think this thread is just for fun. That is not to say that some of the ideas are not viable.
And White Estrid was definitely for a laugh.
I would assume they would only be revealed in an AP or something like a 64 page module where they get a decent set-up and can be portrayed in a cool way.
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What these threads do that is handy.. is they reflect what people are thinking about... even if it has nothing really to do with aboleths. And that is good fuel for products that may have nothing to do with the veiled masters.
Who are the Pactmasters? Which book revealed that?
Guide to Katapesh
As to what they are: