Hey guys,
Been running several ideas in my head for a shattered star campaign coming up. We decided to limit ourselves to religious classes (save one member with a decent story for why he isn't). Only restriction is that we must start as a religious class, but can swap into something else at later levels.
So far we have the following:
Oracle (earth or stone mystery, who will be taking the long road to mystic the urge with sorcerer levels)
Paladin warrior of the holy light
Paladin hospitaler
Cavalier (some archetype that is a bodyguard style, meant to be our honor guard)
And then me. I initially thought of an inquisitor, but then decided to go for a monk (martial artist). But I just wanted to get some opinions. We all worship abadar also.
Rolled stats are
16
13
16
12
14
10
Thanks guys.
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I don't even consider the monk a "religious" class.
Good thing the question wasn't "what do you think is a religious class?"
I think we need to know if you want a "divine" character or a religious one, even wizards worship gods. With your party makeup, a control cleric would be good, you seem to have plenty of Muscle and almost everybody can heal to some extent. If you just need a pious character I say go sorcerers for arcane spells, the can be flavored to be very religious if you have the mind for it.
My first thought was a cavalier with Order of the Star, but it looks like that's already been taken.
Sanctified Rogue
And, of course, cleric. Summoner or buffer, but there are loads of possibilities.
Oracle might not be the best choice to multiclass in. IIRC their mystery are depenedant upon class and not character level.
Theme is a divine character, not just any class and worshipping a deity.
Our ideas of religious classes were paladins, clerics, oracles, monks, inquisitors.
Maybe a crusader cleric or an evangelist? Maybe a theologian or a cloistered one?
How is Cavalier a "religious" class but Monk isn't? I thought the connection with Buddhism was like... the entire point of the class? All these years, I've had it in my head that there's "religious" counterparts of most of the classes:
Fighter ---> Paladin
Rogue ---> Monk
Wizard ---> Cleric
Bard ---> Inquisitor
That sort of thing. I mean, even the name "Monk".
If all it takes is some deity-packaged mechanics, hell, you could say you're a priest of Boccob and just play a Wizard.
Druid could work well. Even without going Urban druid, one of Abadar's domains is Earth, which fits with the Druid's Nature's Bond.
Thematically, you could make the druid care about the "natural order" of life, which is why he follows the god of laws. Laws of nature, and all that.
How is Cavalier a "religious" class...
The cavalier has an Order he can belong to, which ties him to religion: Order of the Star
Edit: The monk does start with Knowledge: Religion as a class skill. That could be used to justify the thought that monks are religious.
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Is it in Golarion? Go monk/paladin then Champion of Irori. The multitude of classes/archetypes/builds (Most with 'Dervish' in the name) dedicated to Sarenrae might work. Arcane classes that I can see as 'religious':
Dawnflower Dervish or Dervish Dancer bard
Dervish Dance magus
Magaambyan Arcanist, a wizard with ties to good spirits.
Is it in Golarion? Go monk/paladin then Champion of Irori. The multitude of classes/archetypes/builds (Most with 'Dervish' in the name) dedicated to Sarenrae might work. Arcane classes that I can see as 'religious':
Dawnflower Dervish or Dervish Dancer bard
Dervish Dance magus
Magaambyan Arcanist, a wizard with ties to good spirits.
Nice concept, but they're all in the same religion: Abadar.
Since you already have a "non-religious" class flavored into the game, you could easily flavor the Ki Mystic Monk as religious.
The ki mystic believes that violence is sometimes necessary, but knowing and understanding is the true root of perfection. Through meditation and spiritual visions, a ki mystic can see beyond the veil of reality to the underlying truth of all existence
Instead of spiritual visions, the monk would have religious visions from Abadar and his avatars. You could even have an order of these monks who all have visions from Abadar that they use to enlighten themselves.
As Abadar has long served as the guardian of the First Vault, these monks follow suit by servicing themselves as merchant guards and guardians of vaults that hold wealth. This would fit in nicely with Abadar's portfolio: merchants, wealth, law, and cities. The GM could also allow them to have Knowledge: Local as a class skill (or even make a trait for them to acquire it and get a small bonus); this would represent them being experts in the law, that way they can protect wealth and merchants though two means: the monk's physical prowess and the legal system.
Here is my zealous (non) paladin, you can adjust as you see fit.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pfyt?Sunblade-of-Sarenrae-build-critique#1
Build the character around crusaders flurry. Whatever abadars weapon is.
an oracle, 2 paladins, and a cavalier... it definitely sounds like you could use an inquisitor.
Abadar's favored weapon is the light crossbow. It's not worth it.Here is my zealous (non) paladin, you can adjust as you see fit.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pfyt?Sunblade-of-Sarenrae-build-critique#1
Build the character around crusaders flurry. Whatever abadars weapon is.
well nevermind then (lol)!
I started with the idea of playing an inquisitor, but something didn't sit right. I then made a monk (martial artist), which feels better to me, but I am still unsure.
I think the monk will be fine, but I just don't want to start the character and then feel that I am playing the wrong character.
Monks, IMO, follow a philosophy or religion. It is from this dedication that they can attain their abilities. In this case it is following the tenets of abadar.
Still confused about how a Monk isn't a religious class by default.
Long story short, many religious scholars don't consider Buddhism a religion because it doesn't believe in either a Creator God or any other supernatural God that exerts control over our everyday lives, which is arguably the sine qua non of the definition of a religion. Funny thing, if you expand the definition of "religion" enough so that it covers Buddhism, you can funny results because things like "Atheism" also become a religion by the new definition.
Long story short, many religious scholars don't consider Buddhism a religion because it doesn't believe in either a Creator God or any other supernatural God that exerts control over our everyday lives, which is arguably the sine qua non of the definition of a religion. Funny thing, if you expand the definition of "religion" enough so that it covers Buddhism, you can funny results because things like "Atheism" also become a religion by the new definition.
I think the term "religious scholar" is pretty chuckle-worthy... But basically, there's a swarm of people debating about where to draw their arbitrary lines to gerrymander the definition. Big surprise.
Worldview involving an afterlife? Dogma concerning morality? Esoteric mysticism? Hierarchical organization? Check check double checkity check.
Buddhism is a religion. Period.
Shaolin monks are just as much a religious sect / order as the Knights Templar. In the west we called them Paladins -- and no one would argue that Paladins aren't a religious class. The very name "Monk" is explicitly a reference to the religious nature of the path to self-perfection on which the Monk class is, again explicitly, modeled.
The Monk is just as much a religious class as the Cleric and Paladin. Maybe he doesn't necessarily worship a specific, named deity -- but Clerics and Paladins don't necessarily have to, either. That's like saying Druids aren't a religious class because they can choose to just worship "Nature" instead of, for example, Tunare.
It's funny because you accuse others of gerrymandering definitions and then you immediately remove "belief in a Creator God" from the definition of religion. Saying "period" doesn't end a debate. I think there is a legitimate argument over whether a belief system must include a belief in God to be considered a religion, and so apparently do many others who have studied the subject.
Back on subject to Pathfinder, though. A "religious" character is one that worships a deity OR gets his powers straight from a deity (paladins, most clerics, some druids, some rangers, etc.). If you're going to say that any class that believes in a Philosophy or a set of principles counts towards your "religious" limitation, and an adherence to a deity is not required, then what the heck is the point of putting the "religious class only!" limitation there in the first place? At that point, any class could be included under that umbrella, so just remove it if you're going to make it meaningless.
I would figure out WHY you guys are all starting as a "religious" class. What is the point to that? Is it because you want the characters to have some belief and faith in the divine? Or is it only because you want the characters to be disciplined and have some kind of philosophy they share with others in their community? Is the restriction necessary? If it is, then strictly adhere to it. If not, then abandon it.
There is also the difference between laity and clergy.
I would like to thank those who actually helped with advice.
The thing people are forgetting is this is not about whether Buddhism is a religion. It is about whether a Monk(Martial Artist) is a religious character. The Original poster stated that he needed a religious character who worships Abadar.
The martial artist pursues a mastery of pure martial arts without the monastic traditions. He is a master of forms but lacks the ability to harness his ki.
This is not a Shaolin monk, this is Bruce Lee in enter the dragon. He has no mystic abilities at all much less any granted by Abadar. He is not part of a monastery. This character does not have any obvious religious ties.
If this character is considered religious just because he worships Abadar than you have no restrictions and any class or race will fit the requirements as long as they are Lawful and worship Abadar. A commoner would work just as well. About the only thing that would not work would be a Antipaladin, Barbarian, or a Druid. There may even be exceptions for the Barbarian and Druid.
If Monks are in this "religious" section of classes, based solely off world views, then any class can be.
I sure as heck cannot see how the non-casting Monk can, but the Divine spellcasting Druid and Ranger are not.
Uh, I totally think Druids and Rangers are "religious classes" too. As is the Witch.
If a Cavalier can just a knight member in a religiously-affiliated "Order", then, yes, a god-affiliated group of Rogues or Wizards or Ninjas could and should be considered "religious classes".
The problem seems to be a bad definition on someone's part. The DM should probably just set down an enumerated list of which classes (and archetypes or whatever) are allowed and let that be that.
Urban Ranger is still more in line with the theme.
I agree.
The thing people are forgetting is this is not about whether Buddhism is a religion. It is about whether a Monk(Martial Artist) is a religious character.
No, the thing people are forgetting is that in our game, monks are religious (archetypes be damned, they are just flavor enhancers). There is no debate here over what should be allowed. The following classes were selected by the DM for initial character creation. After first level we can delve into any class we want.
Cleric
Paladin
Oracle
Inquisitor
Monk
Druids were actually allowed but I forgot to mention it in the above posts. And rangers would have been allowed if we chose a god more opt to have rangers as their holy warriors and would have removed paladins from the mix.
The cavalier was allowed in the group because of his back story and because he sold the reason well to the DM.
Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
The DM should probably just set down an enumerated list of which classes (and archetypes or whatever) are allowed and let that be that
I did list what was allowed impn my 2nd post.
The thing people are forgetting is this is not about whether Buddhism is a religion. It is about whether a Monk(Martial Artist) is a religious character.No, the thing people are forgetting is that in our game, monks are religious (archetypes be damned, they are just flavor enhancers). There is no debate here over what should be allowed. The following classes were selected by the DM for initial character creation. After first level we can delve into any class we want.
Cleric
Paladin
Oracle
Inquisitor
MonkDruids were actually allowed but I forgot to mention it in the above posts. And rangers would have been allowed if we chose a god more opt to have rangers as their holy warriors and would have removed paladins from the mix.
The cavalier was allowed in the group because of his back story and because he sold the reason well to the DM.
Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
I am not saying the monk is not a religious class. What I am saying is this archetype is not religious. You are not part of a monastery or religious order. Any other monk I could see, but not the marital artist.
This is like saying we want to do a all melee party and playing a fighter with the archer archetype.
Just like a good back story can be a reason to allow an exception a archetype that does not fit should also be disallowed.
I am not saying the monk is not a religious class. What I am saying is this archetype is not religious. You are not part of a monastery or religious order. Any other monk I could see, but not the marital artist.
This is like saying we want to do a all melee party and playing a fighter with the archer archetype.
Just like a good back story can be a reason to allow an exception a archetype that does not fit should also be disallowed.
You're ignorant of history.
The "martial artists" on which the Monk class is based were the monks of the Shaolin temple -- a religious institution and organization. They were contemplatives first and warriors second. The class has only a passing resemblance to the modern concept of "martial artist" which still positively reeks of mysticism and spirituality today.
The fact remains, there is a real reason that the term "monk" has been used to describe kung fu practitioners.
Blackblood,
All core races and plane touched races like aasimars, tieflings, etc.
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You're ignorant of history.The "martial artists" on which the Monk class is based were the monks of the Shaolin temple -- a religious institution and organization. They were contemplatives first and warriors second. The class has only a passing resemblance to the modern concept of "martial artist" which still positively reeks of mysticism and spirituality today.
The fact remains, there is a real reason that the term "monk" has been used to describe kung fu practitioners.
Real world history, and the history of Golarion are unrelated.
The historical fact master penis contest can end, and we can move on to help the OP now.
I agree with bbt.
Besides, the real world history is irrelevant when the martial artist archetype is described as thus:
The martial artist pursues a mastery of pure martial arts without the monastic traditions. He is a master of form, but lacks the ability to harness his ki.
That details the martial artist as very non religious and non monastic. The martial artist is the only archetype where you can be any alignment. It's the only archetype that lacks rigorous discipline.
I would suggest a Garuda-blooded (Aasimar) Inquisitor with an archery build. I'd suggest a compound longbow over a crossbow, though, even if light crossbow is Abadar's favored weapon. Your group would benefit from some solid ranged damage (judgements + ranged = awesome) and they can be decent skill monkeys. With your rolled stats, i would say (assuming the +2 to dex and wis from Garuda-blooded Aasimar) without any min-maxing:
S 14
D 18
Co 13
I 12
W 18
Ch 10
Get that Travel domain for added mobility and the free dimension-door-like abilty at 8th level. You'll always be able to keep your distance and wreak holy vengeance while doing so.
So what about the Inquisitor turned you off? They're the at-all-costs operatives of their religion, and it would make complete sense for them to be adventuring with a group of other followers of the faith. They've got the spell progression of an oracle, some very paladin-y smite-like abilities that you can use at range (judgements), and a potential justification for all manner of viciousness or philanthropy.
just a thought.