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Many scenarios have social encounters that do not seem to be an appropriate place for animal companions. Things like dinner parties, the auction from Runecarved Key, or just meeting someone at a private residence. These places are probably not the best place for boars, wolves, horses, etc.
That being said, some classes have animal companions as a core component of their array. As GM's, we should try to avoid nerfing a player's character, but sometimes it just doesn't seem to make sense to allow the AC into some locales. Unfortunately, too often, those encounters turn into combat and the companion character is left significantly hampered. So what do you do? Do you ignore the AC? Since in most cases, other classes are not penalized to remove their armor and leave weapons behind, items that can be just as offensive to a social engagement, are we doing the player a disservice by blocking their animal companion?
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Since in most cases, other classes are not penalized to remove their armor and leave weapons behind, items that can be just as offensive to a social engagement, are we doing the player a disservice by blocking their animal companion?
You bring up an interesting point, though I'll be focusing on the side-point about armor and weapons.
Does anyone enforce socially-appropriate weapon/armor restrictions? If no, then it's pretty much a double-standard to enforce a restriction on animal companions but not an appropriate restriction on weapons and armor.
The reason I bring this up is because I am reminded of:
-Matt
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** spoiler omitted **
Exactly my point, but I see a lot of GM's banning animal companions. Hell, I'm guilty of it. I have just been thinking about my recent table of Runcarved Key where I banned a boar companion from the gala and the auction, but never said anything about the rest of the character's obviously combat-oriented dress. I feel I let the player down.
The problem is that if we enforce a dress code along with the AC ban, when a combat encounter breaks out, we have seriously hindered the PC's ability to survive.
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Because nothing is more socially awkward than when there is an Advanced Elephant in the Room...
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
That said, as Summoner player I never expect to be able to take my Eidolon everywhere. The same can be said for animal companions, "Exotic" familiars, mounts, full plate with armor spikes, and so on.
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Bob,
I think that the situation is going to dictate whether a particular AC can be included or not. Most horses aren't going to be invited in for a nice meal or performance of a play. Almost nobody wants to let a dire tiger in their home (if it doesn't answer to them). Yes, the AC is a class feature, but it is one that I believe there should be some reasonable level of expectation that the AC may not be able to go everywhere the PC can. Large dinosaur AC on a boat? Even a rhinoceros?
I don't think a GM should go out of his or her way to keep a PC from having the AC available, but one of the trade-offs of the more mundane ACs is that they are more likely to be able to be accepted in more places. Clearly, if this is being brought up, we cannot just assume that "use your best judgment" is the best option. I'm curious to read what others have to say on the subject.
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This is a very interesting topic, and I have to agree with Bob about it being a little unfair to characters with AC. I handle this matter in the following way:
If it is demanded by the scenario in question to bar AC/weapons/armor, I do so as part of the role-play. If it is not specifically called out, however, then I run the hosts as extremely understanding and respectful of the eccentricities that come with being a member of the pathfinder society in good standing.
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My take on it is that if the campaign wants to enforce a given cultural norm regarding equipment, wilderness oriented class features or the like, that it needs to communicate that cultural norm in the universal assumptions and then communicate appropriateness in the adventure description. Otherwise, it just becomes a matter of what degree of strangeness presses who's buttons and results in a lack of continuity. Without agreement, what one GM thinks is good gaming becomes disappointment, bad feelings and mutterings of short words that end in k.
I'm not GMing nor playing much these days, but until such a basic standard is met, my take as a GM is to assume the Star Wars Cantina theme plays from the start of any adventure to the end, albeit in the background at low volume. As a player, I generally just roll with the punches and assume that if GM is enforcing a dress down of some sort that he's using good judgement or the writer calls for it.
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I play with a highly traditional AC, the velociraptor on one character, and a roc on the other.
I bought silent and signal whistles for both characters. If the GM indicates that it is best to leave the AC outside, I make sure my character hangs out by windows. If something goes wrong, I blow the appropriate whistle (Handle Animal Come trick), and open or break the window.
Point is, if there is a way to get the AC into the area if combat breaks out, I don't mind leaving it outside. I only mind on those rare occasions when you are asked to leave the AC outside, then combat breaks out, and there is no way to get your companion to you.
In summary: As the GM please read through the module in advance and look to see if there is a reasonable way to bring the AC in. If the player can have access to the AC with little to no effort, then feel free to have the companion wait outside until needed. Possibly prod the player with small hints like "you see your <insert animal here> stalking nervously outside the window'. If there will be no reasonable way to bring the class feature into play if you lock it out, then don't lock it out.
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In a world where there are eidolons and familars who are smart enough to follow conversations as well as animal companions, wouldn't social conventions develop to make allowances for the eidolon in the room? And yes, I could see many eidolons having dinner with their summoner, perhaps even formally.
Then how far would it be to make room/be a little more lenient torward animal companions? I'm not saying full acceptance per say, but a few more allowances then what would be allowed at a 21st century dinner party?
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Generally speaking, in scenarios that call for it, I have tried to enforce armor/weapon restrictions. Recently, I ran a season 0 scenario that involves visiting an opera, and I highly recommended that my players wear fancy clothing and check their weapons at the door unless easily concealed. One Season 4 scenario writes this into the text of the adventure. Others require it as a matter of practice. It's EXTREMELY difficult to sneak around with that tower shield, as a particular paladin in my party during a particular scenario proved.
I don't usually have a problem banning animal companions, though, because the classes that rely on them most can do other things in combat. Druids can use Summon Nature's Ally or wildshape. Summoners can summon. Take that longsword away from the fighter, though, and he is much more nerfed than a caster without their animal companion.
Perhaps a description of two or three other NPC animal companions at the party would make the PC animal companion feel less awkward.
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My Cavalier/Bard is a circus performer, and his wolf AC/mount is part of his act. He has the perform trick, and has a 75gp courtier's outfit. He was asked to sit out side the main pavilion at a certain wedding, but otherwise has been allowed pretty much anywhere the Halfling is allowed, including a formal tea at the Chelaxian embassy. ;-)
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I'm with Kerney. This is a world where social conventions for these kinds of things would have developed. People would be used to be sitting at dinner table with a powerful wizard who's feeding the weasel resting on his shoulders. Areas where druids are common would be used to having a wolf at the door, so to speak.
Think of it as a lesser version of the world in the Phillip Pullman novels, where everyone has an animal companion. In such worlds, society would make allowances.
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The scenario should definetly spell out what is or is not allowed.
As for the "nerf"
Druids, cavaliers, samurai, summoner.... all function well with out their AC.
Also
Barbarians, fighters, paladins, wizards, clerics, monks, rogues, ect all function well with out weapons and armor too. The only big loss being armor, so the encounters just need lower to hit bonuses or allow armor.
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There are many ways to get around with your animal companion when they are not allowed in:
Pup Shape, Stone Companion, etc are spells that work
Personally, my cavaliers have a +1 Hosteling Tower Shield for getting their mounts through secure places
I have nerfed and been nerfed b/c of social situations and animal companions - it is a common hazard for pet-focused characters - I no longer feel bad about it as there are many ways around it now.
Famously in our area there was a table of a purely social setting, and the BBEG's final words were "I never should have let those dinosaurs into my mansion!" - THIS should not happen IMO
I'd probably let it ride unless it was /really/ iffy, and the scenario should take care of that. At worst, NPC might adjust to unfriendly/hostile and you need diplomacy or removing the animal. I'm very much against modifying the scenario if it isn't called for in the text.
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My half orc Druid's AC is a dog purposely because it's more acceptable (though now at level 4 he is medium size and less acceptable, like a great dane).
I also voluntarily leave him out of certain scenes either due to social factors or physical ones (e.g. having to climb, though Spider Climb works if prepped), my character can do plenty without his dog so I am not too worried.
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I'd say given this is PFS, and encounters are tiered by CR, a scenario's author should specifically state when ACs, eidolons, weapons, armor, etc. are not socially acceptable, state consequences for disobedience/discovery, and factor down the party's APL when determining the encounter's CR. Tier 4-5 might drop to APL 3 for example, so CR of 3-5 depending on how tough the situation is supposed to be, instead of CR 5-7.
I thought about this myself, but I don't think it would work consistently. When you design an encounter, you assume that all the players are equally (roughly) powerful. The skills that a fighter brings to an encounter are supposed to be the same in comparative strength as the other characters. That being said, if you remove weapons/armor, you create imbalance in that equation. Some classes, like a non-instrument performance bard and most spontaneous casters will likely be unaffected by the loss of their weapons/armor. Melee types are at least nerf'ed if not completely neutered.
The same can be said for most animal companion builds. They tend to be more than 50% of the character's effectiveness and as such it might be unfair to deny them. However, even in a fantasy world, especially one that is supposed to be patterned off the Victorian Age or perhaps the Age of Enlightenment rather than the typical Dark Ages or Medieval period, social expectations will be more sophisticated.
my take as a GM is to assume the Star Wars Cantina theme plays from the start of any adventure to the end, albeit in the background at low volume.
Perhaps, but remember, even in the Cantina, "We don't serve their kind here." :-)
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Here's another one. I frequently play with a summoner who presents and thinks of her Eidolon as her 'daughter'. My summoner is a big believer in Andoran equality, and when I bought the eagle knight boon, my eidolon started wearing the uniform (actually, changing his feather pattern to match).
Could such characters be treated as "Animals" per sae, especially if they speak common and such?
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Kerney the problem with Eidolons is they are Obvious Fantastical Creatures with these Glowing Symbols on their heads, your PC may introduce it as your daughter but to everyone it is obvious that it is not at first glance, or second glance.. ;)
Not me playing the eidolon with a daughter, I see how my writing led to the mix up. However, they still are sentient beings as are familars, and if you exclude them, especially if someone presents their eidolon as their wife, a fellow Eagle or Hellknight (and yes, I know you can't buy a boon to make them 'offical') when does it cross from asking someone to leave their pet outside, to bad manners to a valued colleague?
I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on this and I'm not sure there can be.
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Being that they are summoned outsiders, I don't think the precedent for how "polite" one must be to an eidolon is directly proportional to how much you think the summoner could ruin your life politically, socially, financially, and making you dead.
If you are talking about Amara Li and her Snapdragon Festival, or the Blakros Wedding, I'd imagine that you would be asked to leave your Eidolon outside, and deal with you like a crazy person if you said it was your daughter or wife.
Eidolons are weapons and should be treated as such.
You don't let a Magus into your social affair with an active shocking grasp so you don't get to bring your big summoned outsider pet either.
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As a player, I am very realistic about weapons, armor, animal companions, etc.
While in the fancy hunting lodge, my Unbreakable Fighter is definitely not wearing his full plate. When the giant spider attacks, he sucks it up and pulls his less bulky and awkward sword and shield out. No, he was not wearing his full plate in the middle of the night when the werewolves attacked, their teeth will break on his iron hard pectorals, thank you very much.
My alchemist does not travel on horseback with a loaded crossbow on his person. I don't care about the mechanics of it, he does not want to get bucked off his horse when it manages to jostle the firing mechanism into going off and shooting it in the rump.
My archer does not travel with his longbow strung, that is how you end up ruining a perfectly good bow by warping the wood.
So no, my inquisitor is not bringing his half-feral giant scorpion with him to court. He is slapping a pair of giant rubber bands on those claws and leaving a pile of dead birds just out of its reach to keep it distracted.
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Being that they are summoned outsiders, I don't think the precedent for how "polite" one must be to an eidolon is directly proportional to how much you think the summoner could ruin your life politically, socially, financially, and making you dead.
If you are talking about Amara Li and her Snapdragon Festival, or the Blakros Wedding, I'd imagine that you would be asked to leave your Eidolon outside, and deal with you like a crazy person if you said it was your daughter or wife.
Eidolons are weapons and should be treated as such.
You don't let a Magus into your social affair with an active shocking grasp so you don't get to bring your big summoned outsider pet either.
Where does it say Eidolons are only weapons? Where does it say they are pets?
Make them Bipeds, specialize them in social skills enough to grease the wheels of acceptance so to speak (DC 10 to 25 Diplomancy/Bluff/Disguise depending on the situation). If you're creating an NPC, give them some half Celestial/Infernal children or make a PC Assimar/Tiefling summoner and make the eidolon the parent (that will be awesome when complete campaign brings out rules for younger characters).
Is this really weirder then all the other stuff humans breed with?
With the right presentation, it makes sense.
I don't disagree with you in all situations Andrew. If said Eidolon is a hairy fanged quadraped thingie it would be treated like a pet. But if said Eidolon protests in perfect Taldane, most people will rethink their assumptions. It is possible to create an Eidolon that doesn't fit the pet paradign and players who come with such and role play them as such should be rewarded rather then automatically shunned as crazy people.
There are is fiction, like the Manga/Anime Oh My Goddess, Phil Pullman's Dark Materials and Naomi Novak's Tremere series which certainly fit this paradign.
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I like to think that in a world where operas are attacked by hordes of zombies, weddings are crashed by demons, and tea parties are disrupted by squads of Pathfinders, no proper gentleman or lady would show up to a social function without a weapon.
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I like to think that in a world where operas are attacked by hordes of zombies, weddings are crashed by demons, and tea parties are disrupted by squads of Pathfinders, no proper gentleman or lady would show up to a social function without a weapon.
Funnily enough, aristocrats are proficient in all simple and martial weapons and every kind of armor and shield. They have more proficiencies than barbarians, for crying out loud.
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But if said Eidolon protests in perfect Taldane, most people will rethink their assumptions.
as always, circumstances create flux.
Andrew is right, here. I agree with you, Kerney, that the eidolon protesting might change the minds of the NPC saying the eidolon must stay outside, but it still might wind up depending more on the physical look of the thing than it's Diplomacy score or ability to talk. Just because you have a talking giant four legged thing doesnt mean it gets to come to dinner because it can talk, or even because it's very polite and can speak fluent Taldane.
Something I had forgotten all about until recently is the ability to peace bond your weapon. I think doing that gets around a lot of the problem with weapons being allowed but animals not being allowed. As for armor/armor spikes, that is an entirely different matter, but like most situations in which any of these kinds of things will come up, you should expect table variation.
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When its inappropriate I just say they haven't got it with them: I'm the GM- I can do that.
They're not likely to have their plate on lounging around at home either.
Roleplay vs. Roll Play.
You don't go for a drink in the pub in full plate with a pack, nor do you take a pet dinosaur.
If it situation sounds ludicrous then it probably is- so as GM rule on it. Mature and sensible players won't mind, and will probably agree along identical lines: off duty soldiers don't take assualt rifles out for a nights clubbing.
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I'm trying to think of reasonable parallels in fiction. (Real life doesn't seem like a good comparison, as Pathfinder involves lots of dangerous wilderness/ruins, while the modern world is incredibly pacifistic by comparison.)
At the Council of Elrond held to decide what to do about the Ring, everyone who traveled there with weapons and armor was wearing said armor and had all their weapons with them.
In fact, as best I recall, there was only one time when people had to check their weapons at the door, and was when Wormtongue was specifically trying to weaken them so they couldn't try anything to help the king of Rohan. And the characters chafed at the idea, with Aragorn (in the book, at least) making it clear that if anything went amiss regarding his sword, there'd be hell to pay. Being asked to disarm before entering the throne room was suspicious.
I seem to recall people being armed even at the Prancing Pony (though I could be wrong), presumably because safe traveling required being armed and people would keep stuff like that on their person.
Shifting out of LotR, I'm picturing old Westerns (the most modern setting I can think of that includes both dangerous wilderness and the potential for fancy events) where everyone who owned a pistol pretty much wore it everywhere - the saloon, the bank, the dinner table, wherever. Now, they'd leave their shotgun at home if they're just walking down the street to the bar, but if they're going anywhere far enough that they need their horse or wagon, they bring the shotgun with them and maybe just leave it with the horse when they tie it up outside.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think it's not really weird for people further than walking distance from their own homes to bring their armor and weapons with them, and not really be questioned about it.
How much of that extends to AniComps? Hard to say, as there's a fair bit less classic fiction dealing with that than with weapons. But I'd definitely have to say at least a certain measure of social acceptability exists for them in a setting where they're not exactly rare, and familiars are downright common. Some of the weird or exotic or especially large one might be an issue (big difference between bringing a well-groomed wolf or bringing a dinosaur), but any sort of blanket "fancy settings disallow animal companions" doesn't really seem to fit the setting.
Has anyone read any Pathfinder Tales fiction that dealt with animal companions in social settings?
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I'm trying to think of reasonable parallels in fiction. (Real life doesn't seem like a good comparison, as Pathfinder involves lots of dangerous wilderness/ruins, while the modern world is incredibly pacifistic by comparison.)
At the Council of Elrond held to decide what to do about the Ring, everyone who traveled there with weapons and armor was wearing said armor and had all their weapons with them.
In fact, as best I recall, there was only one time when people had to check their weapons at the door, and was when Wormtongue was specifically trying to weaken them so they couldn't try anything to help the king of Rohan. And the characters chafed at the idea, with Aragorn (in the book, at least) making it clear that if anything went amiss regarding his sword, there'd be hell to pay. Being asked to disarm before entering the throne room was suspicious.
I seem to recall people being armed even at the Prancing Pony (though I could be wrong), presumably because safe traveling required being armed and people would keep stuff like that on their person.
Shifting out of LotR, I'm picturing old Westerns (the most modern setting I can think of that includes both dangerous wilderness and the potential for fancy events) where everyone who owned a pistol pretty much wore it everywhere - the saloon, the bank, the dinner table, wherever. Now, they'd leave their shotgun at home if they're just walking down the street to the bar, but if they're going anywhere far enough that they need their horse or wagon, they bring the shotgun with them and maybe just leave it with the horse when they tie it up outside.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think it's not really weird for people further than walking distance from their own homes to bring their armor and weapons with them, and not really be questioned about it.
How much of that extends to AniComps? Hard to say, as there's a fair bit less classic fiction dealing with that than with weapons. But I'd definitely have to say at least a certain...
Prince of Wolves, sorta.
The dog wasn't allowed in the house.
Additionally, if we are just talking about a VC briefing or what not, or carousing around the streets of Kaer Maga (which are like a Cantina anyways), then who cares.
But I can recall at least 3 scenarios where it specifically discusses getting all gussied up and leaving your weapons (and presumably pets) at the door.
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I think a reasonable guideline might be that if a scenario specifically says that PCs should spend X gp on fine clothing for an occassion, they can spend the same amount on professional grooming and accessories for their animal companion to make it presentable.
I don't care how pretty it is, you ain't bringing your Large Axe Beak into the wedding ceremony for the Blakros Wedding.
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But I can recall at least 3 scenarios where it specifically discusses getting all gussied up and leaving your weapons (and presumably pets) at the door.Sure. I was talking more about coming up with general rules of thumb for when the scenario doesn't specify.
I'd imagine it would only come into play (at my table) if we are talking about a high society event.
Like an Opera (sorry, no wolves allowed in the Taldan opera house--that is until things start happening, then you are more than welcome to whistle for your dog that's waiting patiently by the front door).
High Society function (Snapdragon Festival, dinner party with faction heads and other luminaries of Golarion, high society wedding)
Scenario involving Goblins (please don't bring your horses or dogs)
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I'd say if the scenario doesn't specify, then anything goes, and players should be able to bring whatever wherever.
In Renaissance society, it was common for gentlemen to wear their sheathed sword everywhere they went, even making sure it was polished for fancy parties. I'd put weapon carrying in Golarion in that category, similar to the analogy to the old west and everyone carrying a pistol.
And as others have said, these types of pets are fairly common in Golarion, so I'd think they'd be allowed most places, as long as they're house broken.
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I think my problems with Eidolons from what I have read from the APG is that you are summoning a unique fantastical creature based on the whims and imagination of the summoner.
You are not summoning a Celestial/Infernal outsider that an Assimar or Tiefling can say it is their parent.
It may have the form of a humanoid but it is not a humanoid, it may have the form of known outsiders, but it is none of those. Even in the description it states this "The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature."
So based in that and the glowing symbol on it, it is obvious what it is.
Though depending on the form I can see it being allowed in ceremonies. A humanoid shaped one would be easier to get through then some of the others. Though some guests may have problems because of it obvious alien look.
I'm trying to think of reasonable parallels in fiction. (Real life doesn't seem like a good comparison, as Pathfinder involves lots of dangerous wilderness/ruins, while the modern world is incredibly pacifistic by comparison.)
At the Council of Elrond held to decide what to do about the Ring, everyone who traveled there with weapons and armor was wearing said armor and had all their weapons with them.
That may be the case in the movie, but there's no implication of that in the books that I'm aware of other than, I think, Boromir still wearing his traveling clothes. Not armor - clothes.
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I think a reasonable guideline might be that if a scenario specifically says that PCs should spend X gp on fine clothing for an occassion, they can spend the same amount on professional grooming and accessories for their animal companion to make it presentable.I don't care how pretty it is, you ain't bringing your Large Axe Beak into the wedding ceremony for the Blakros Wedding.
You only say that because you haven't seen my Axe Beak's disguise bonus.
"Why does that old woman keep squawking?"