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This Thread reminds me of this scene
Edit: Game Of Thrones Season 2 spoiler if you have not seen it.
Possibly true for Animal Companions. In no way true for Eidolons.
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I've just started reading Liars Blade and the two following bits did struck me while reading
1) Peace Binding the sword. The story starts in Tymon and the 'hero' is forced to peace bind his sword while inside town. Only 'bloodied Gladiators' are allowed to openly carry a weapon while in town. That would rule out more or less every visiting pathfinder.
2) One of the new companions of the hero is riding a camel. The hero remarks when he sees it that this is the first time in his life that he sees a camel (apart in a book).
I'm not saying that Pathfinder Tales are canon that you need to follow strictly while GMing. But they give a good way to learn about certain regions of Golarion.
I wouldn't go as far as having weapons peace bound in town unless noted. But I felt it is interesting to note that there are settlements where it is demanded.
The second part - well - if a Camel can be regarded as exotic by a hero who is a mercenary and gets around A LOT - albeit rather in the northern parts of Golarion - how common do you think are some other druid Animal Companions.
If you have something out of place - expect it draws attention - positive or negative. It isn't invisible.
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Had some time to think about it. OffintheShower obviously had different mental images of what an eidolon could be (guess which is which). Needless to say, that through him for a loop and made Andrew feel it was squishy.It didn't throw me for a loop, I was just letting you know that if you ever sat at my table your Eidolon wouldn't be an Andoran Eagle Knight.
First off, your intial reaction was to the concept of a summoner and their eidolon finding marital bliss together.
Secondly, as I've explained about four times now that I never have claimed that my Eidolon is and Andoran Eagle Knight.
I could repeat myself again, but I don't see the point.
Thirdly, if someone comes to the table with a perfectly legal character, provided they aren't saying their elf is Vulcan or a Jedi or was stranded by the Doctor, and all their character paperwork is in order, you should be polite and respectful. Period.
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This Thread reminds me of this scene
Edit: Game Of Thrones Season 2 spoiler if you have not seen it.
I hereby declare Dragnmoon - winner of this thread
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There is at least one example in literature about people with large companions: the Valdemar novels by Mercedes lackey.
The Companions are horse shaped spirits with high intelligence and magical powers,you need to bond with a Companion to become a Herald and the King or Queen heir need to have bonded to a Companion to be eligible for ruling the kingdom.
Even with all that only the Heralds try to do their social gathering in pavilions in open spaces to accommodate the Companions. When a Herald travel in the kingdom of Valdemar or allied states and is hosted somewhere his Companion is treated as a sentient being, but generally isn't hosted with the human in the houses and it don't participate in the high society social gatherings.
In the novels there are a few other spiritual creatures, like the firecats, that are more socially acceptable and attend several meetings (the Companions aren't really keep out of the meetings, as they have a constant telepathic link with their Chosen).
On the other side of the coin, the Gryphons, that are sentient and represent a nation, are treated in all ways as diplomatic envoys.
I think that you can find some hint on how to manage animal companions and the like in those books.
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If characters are not going to be able to use animal companions, then that should be made clear in the introduction and the player should be given a chance to swap characters. I ran into this recently, had a choice between two characters, but no real guidance from the module info or the GM and the sylvan sorcerer ended up not having her tiger for the module. I would have been much happier to have been playing the character who was not nerfed by author fiat.
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If characters are not going to be able to use animal companions, then that should be made clear in the introduction and the player should be given a chance to swap characters.
If the entire scenario would preclude the animal companion, then I would agree. If you are going to spend the entire session in a cramped sewer or if it a mostly social scenario taking place inside someone's house, then it would probably be unfair for the Venture-Captain assigning the mission to ignore the fact s/he summoned an agent with a companion.
OTOH, if it is only one or maybe two encounters that will "nerf" the PC, I don't feel it is the responsibility of the GM to encourage the player to change characters. There are a lot of scenarios that have encounters that could completely neutralize a PC's skill-set. Sorry, but that is life. Sometimes, the player should take it upon them self to consider their choice of PC. Taking your oracle of flame or fire elementalist to the Citadel of Flame might sound cool, but if you consider that some/many/all of your enemies will be fire-using creatures and probably have at least resist-fire if not immunity, it might not be the best choice.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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To add a bit of comparison to Bob's post, consider this:
Some people build melee PCs who are either seriously gimped by having to switch to their backup ranged weapon, or have even completely neglected owning such a weapon. Does the GM need to warn them if the scenario contains flying enemies?
Some people build enchanters whose best spells are all mind-affecting, and their selection of non-mind-affecting spells are substantially weaker. Does the GM need to warn them if the scenario contains undead?
Some people continue into mid- and high-level play with absolutely no answers to darkness/deeper darkness. Does the GM need to warn them if that will come up in the scenario?
And some people build PCs who have a really hard time functioning without their companion/eidolon. Should this be any different than any of the above?
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I agree with Bob and Jiggy.
I know of only a few scenarios that specifically indicate animal companions aren't allowed or that as a GM I would specifically say the animal companion could participate due to societal issues.
- First Steps Part II: To Delve the Dungeon Deep - no animals allowed at the Snap Dragon Festival, sorry.
- Murder on the Throaty Mermaid / Quest for Perfection Part II: On Hostile Waters - Large Animals aren't going to be accompanying you onto the boat. It just isn't big enough. Sorry.
- Blakross Matrimony - Sorry, its a wedding of high society Taldan's. They want decorum, and animals just don't fit the bill.
- Sewer Dragons of Absalom - animals are specifically banned from the Operas. This makes sense.
- Decline of Glory - at least until you realize all the attendees are zombies, your animal has to wait outside.
There are a few more, but I feel a GM and/or Author is well within their rights to write what makes sense. As Jiggy noted, there are many other things that can nerf other builds.
Part of the deal with playing a pet class, is that you might have to do a mission without your pet. Sorry.
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I agree with Bob and Jiggy.
I know of only a few scenarios that specifically indicate animal companions aren't allowed or that as a GM I would specifically say the animal companion could participate due to societal issues.
** spoiler omitted **
There are a few more, but I feel a GM and/or Author is well within their rights to write what makes sense. As Jiggy noted, there are many other things that can nerf other builds.
Part of the deal with playing a pet class, is that you might have to do a mission without your pet. Sorry.
Agreed, but remember, you can can and should pre-plan strategies to create circumstances so that your animal companion would be allowed into situations.
If, for example, you're boarding the Throaty Mermaid with a large tiger, ask to pay for birth in the cargo hold
Not every GM will go for these all the time and there are modules like Frostfur Captives, where nothing will make it possible for your dog or horse to come along. But you will get your companion in more situations and places if you try. A few GMs will find this annoying so if you encounter them, don't push it. On the other hand some GMs will applaud your skills. But thinking about this in advance is as much your job as a fighter thinking about what to do if he can't use his two handed great sword is his job.
Hopefully I've finally posted something on this thread which won't get me stoned.
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I don't think of this as 'nerfing' the character, but as somebody making a nerfed character.
You didn't know AC's couldn't climb ropes? Can't enter ballrooms? Can't hold their breath? Might be really huge and/or scary outside of an adventuring venue?
I would expect both players and the characters to come prepared for such occurrences. It's a society based a lot on exploration and diplomacy (as well as stealing and tons of killing). And if killing with one trick (of several available to AC classes) is all they've prepared for, yep, they're going to be screwed when they have to explore or be diplomatic in places where they have to leave their killing machines behind (before that inevitable killing phase).
Way up the chain, somebody mentioned the various magic ways to get around these issues. I'd expect somebody SO dependent should've invested in those resources.
Would the AC PC leave if their companion died early?
First Steps should be warning enough. After that, it's the player's responsibility.
That said, I doubt any GM would omit an AC for other than story reasons. Role with it. :)
Oh, and ACs are notoriously powerful, so is it all that bad to see what the PC can do without one?
JMK
P.S. This is also why my AC is shampooed, curled, and befested with ribbons in her hair. Makes her whimper, but really, she loves the attention. (Actually, she hates the fluff (Int 6, she knows it makes her look wimpy), but don't tell my PC.)
P.P.S. Makes Rogues and Monks look a bit nicer, eh?
(Dinner fork to the eye! 1d2+5d6= heh, heh!)
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I don't think of this as 'nerfing' the character, but as somebody making a nerfed character.
You didn't know AC's couldn't climb ropes?
That would depend on the AC wouldn't it? Obviously horses cant. Raccoons can. A dog can probably bite onto the rope and be lifted up.
Can't enter ballrooms?
This is something that's dependant on the world and location. Its a fantasy setting, things may be a little different than a western country with strict health codes. As a resident of the world its something the character should know but the player may not.
I'm not saying its wrong to say "No dogs allowed" , but it is something the dm should point out.
Can't hold their breath?
Eh?
Might be really huge and/or scary outside of an adventuring venue?
If that disqualifies you from an invite... why did they invite pathfinders? :)
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This just came up at one of my sessions at MegaCon. A druid wanted to bring her elephant animal companion (still young enough to be medium sized) to a fancy party where they were trying to sneak in undetected. I gave her the "You can do that, BUT..." speech to warn her that it might stand out like an... elephant in the room.
She decorated it.
That's right. She decorated it. She put streamers and stuff all over her elephant companion, then told it to march right through the center of the grand ballroom, thus serving as a distraction so the rest of the party would go unnoticed.
I was so stunned by the creative solution that I didn't even think to ask for a disguise check on it. I just gave them a bonus to their checks for the brilliant distraction and moved on.
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Among the Living was a scenario I was worried about when I brought my gnome cavalier and his wolf mount.
I heard that it was taking place in an opera house, so I was trying to figure out how I would be able to get him out of whatever nearby stable I would have to put him in once the scenario started.
Thankfully, the GM handwaved me getting him into the bar before the show, since there really aren't any guards at that door (they want the public to come in and drink after all).
Once he was in, all it took was a quick Intimidate check on an usher to let him sit with me under my seat once they opened the doors for seating.
When I ran this, I didn't have any players with animal companions or the like, but when I saw that the exterior doors would be sealed I resolved to let anyone with one have them inside the building. My plan was to have the animal tied up over in the actors, or service entrance, and that after the initial fight, they would be able to get to them.
My point is, that if it's at all possible, be mindful of players with animal companions and such, and see if you can't figure out how to accommodate them. Even if it stretches logic a little.
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Just to perform a little thread necromancy;
My sons & I played a couple of games at a local con, and one of the boys character is a STR 8 gnome druid, so fairly clearly in combats his AC does all the heavy lifting. The second adventure, it turns out, took place inside a single building for its entirety, and the GM turned around and said the AC couldn't enter.
Now, from one point of view I can understand the decision, BUT. The published blurb for the adventure gave no indication that this may be the case, and if it had we'd probably have played something else. The druid had already prepped his spells with no direct combat ones, so that wasn't a fall back. And in the end my son effectively sat out all of the combats, which he wasn't happy about.
As he said afterwards, "I never see adventures which remove a monk's hands or a fighter's combat abilities, so why are druids pick on?"
He has a point...
As players we're at cons to have fun. Please put enough information into the adventure blurbs so that we can choose not to play a specific adventure.
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Darell,
Carry companion from the knights of the inner sea is tailor made for that situation: its only a second level spell, so scrolls are easily available at 150 gp a shot. Buy 1 or two so you don't need to waste the spell slots on it "just in case" It turns your critter into a tiny stone statue you can put in your pocket and transform back to normal as a standard action. People may tell the T rex he's not allowed into the formal dinner, but once the soup starts trying to eat people and you let him out to play they won't say a thing.
People may tell the T rex he's not allowed into the formal dinner,
People tell a T-Rex no? To its face?
Anyways, not a fan of removing characters class features. They chose to have them, best not take away toys.
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With my Samurai, I am aware that I can't have my horse everywhere. However, when I level up to Mammoth Rider, I will MAKE the AC appropriate. Somehow.
take agile frame, and additional item slot feats. get a shirt slot for the ac. give ac corset of the viskanya. for 10 rounds a day a huge mount can fit in a medium size creatures space
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I have parked my animal companion (a melanistic leopard aka panther) by a tree, outside a saloon, etc., more times than I care to count. I always ask permission of the person in authority of the location if I can bring my pet with me. If they say no, he sits by a tree or something. It doesnt bother me in the slightest.
Of course, I have actually taken my panther with me to dinner parties because I was given permission. He is stylin' in mithril chain barding after all and I had just bathed him and brushed his teeth.
Warnings. That's all that's needed.
May I ask what adventure? There's more than a few times I've done an adventure and I've been told similar things because the GM made it up as he went rather than it being an actual class feature. It makes sense logically, but mechanically and meta it does more harm than good imo.
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Kerney the problem with Eidolons is they are Obvious Fantastical Creatures with these Glowing Symbols on their heads, your PC may introduce it as your daughter but to everyone it is obvious that it is not at first glance, or second glance.. ;)
The glowing symbol can be covered by mundane means - so a simple cloth head-covering covers that symbol - a similar head-covering on the summoner masks the connection.
I know of a pair of summoner and eidolon that wear hats in that matter to be bodyguard and protectee in regular games.
I think it's perfectly fine to allow an animal companion at "social functions" unless you are also examing the entire party for inappropriate items ( armor, weapons , etc ) .
If the GM still balks at an Animal Companion coming to dinner ( or whatever ) just point out the AC is wearing a little bow tie.. or some other cute costume =D
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I read this thread with one thing in mind. I play a druid, but she's a Treesinger. I don't wander around with some mangy dog or pig or velicioraptor, I have a walking flower. I wonder what sort of reaction NPCs should have to that :)
Now you just need to find a large pot, some soil, and enough ranks in bluff to convince the guard the potted plant was there the entire time.
It's part of the price you pay as a character for stepping that far out of your normal environment.
I think that's an opinion rather than a statement on mechanical balance. My own society druid fits perfectly fine in society events and even his animal companions are outfitted in a regal looking armor rather than rags or without any cover at all.
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A lot of this will vary by GM. One thing that I did with my druid to increase the chance of my companion being allowed in was to give it the perform trick (pre animal archive). And I dressed it up in nice scarves and things.
Make sure that is on the character sheet AND chronicle or ITS sheet.
No guarantee, of course, but at least twice it convinced a GM to let her in somewhere.
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Note: I believe a very recent scenario
** spoiler omitted **
Shows the influence the menagerie is having on scenarios in that a multitude of strange and different types are all present in the first act
Hehehe. I described that scene with the ape and someone started playing the starwars cantina theme music on their phone.
** spoiler omitted **
No other character had any weapons or armour restricted by the DO.
If there ever was a scenario where animals should be barred from entering, it's that one. Your GM made the right call.
-Matt
For most animals, I would agree.
However, I would have allowed the player to change their spells, as the VC would have given them a heads up that they were heading into a high-society, most ACs will be denied situation. Enough for the PCs to have some relevant spells, without giving away the mission before the first briefing (or to allow the player to change PCs if that would have been the better choice - or even play a pregen instead if that made more sense). After all, the main goal is for people to have fun.
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Mist : Sadly thats an issue with a scenario like the Disappeared or any of the other Wedding type scenarios. You dont really find out about the wedding until it has started (unless the GM politely states this scenario has a wedding in it beforehand). Its the same recourse as a Wizard who always memorises their burn spells (although has 'social' enhancing magic also). As its next to impossible in some scenarios to either rejig spells by resting then its a pretty much done deal.
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I read this thread with one thing in mind. I play a druid, but she's a Treesinger. I don't wander around with some mangy dog or pig or velicioraptor, I have a walking flower. I wonder what sort of reaction NPCs should have to that :)Now you just need to find a large pot, some soil, and enough ranks in bluff to convince the guard the potted plant was there the entire time.
Hmmm...now I have ideas for the glamer when I get it barding :P
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For classes with animal companions it is not at all difficult to get the spell carry companion, and once you hit 7(ish) you should be considering hosteling armor. I don't care if it "nerfs" an AC class, if the rest of the group has to take off armor and peace tie weapons in
GM made a good call; there are certain scenarios where an animal, trained or not, is not welcome. Might you have to take extraordinary measures to deal with this? Probably, but you're Pathfinders for god's sake. Hopefully the players can be adult enough to realize this.
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As I've said, the GM's call made sense, that bit I don't actually have trouble with.
But if we'd known in advance that the adventure was inappropriate for animals (that's all it would have needed to have said, no spoilers) we'd have picked a different adventure.
Why pay good money to not enjoy ourselves?
