Prevents contact by summoned creatures of the specified alignment. If you've Dominated or are otherwise controlling a minion which isn't summoned, it can still combat the Protected subject normally regardless of your minion's alignment. That is, your minion can physically touch and attack the warded subject with a mere -2 penalty as normal. Again, Protection From Evil does not prevent non-outsider Evil creatures from touching the Protected subject. Your Dominated Fighter can still attack that target directly, even grappling or whatever else, your summoned Devil though would have to resort to ranged attacks or spells.
Similarly, it doesn't provide immunity to your mind control if your minion comes under the effect of a Protection spell after you've already established control. What happens is that they get a new save (albeit at +2) to suppress your spell for the duration of the Protection spell. And this is only if your original spell allowed a save. If they fail this save, your Dominate spell continues uninterrupted as normal. I have seen DMs rule that Sleeping targets (magically induced sleep or otherwise) count as "Willing" subjects for the purposes of saves against spells... Whether this means the subject is allowed a new save by Protection From Evil seems very open to DM fiat.
Regardless, if the Protection From Evil spell is coming from a caster your minion would currently view as "hostile", the spell's description does say that they get a Will Save to negate the entire effect (even though it's tagged as (harmless) they still choose who to trust based on the worldview you've imposed on them via your spell), which prevents them from being allowed to make a save against your controlling spell in the process, if they successfully resist the application of the Protection spell.
Now, if you're trying to, for example, Dominate the subject of a Protection From Evil spell (and you are yourself Evil), then your spell will fail as it is explicitly excluded from affecting the subject. So you should Dispel the Protection first if you are attempting to take control of an otherwise valid Protected target.
Protection From Evil has no effect on you or your minions if you are not actually Evil. They need to cast Protection From <Your Specific Alignment>. Dominate Person, for example, is not tagged with the [Evil] descriptor, it is only excluded based on its caster's alignment.
If you're a Mystic Theurge capable of casting Dominate Person, you're a pretty high level character indeed regardless of your particular spread of class levels. Metamagic effects can make your spells much more difficult to resist and you should be using Heighten and/or Persistent Spell when you want to make sure of something that allows a save. Metamagic Rods are wonderful for this sort of thing as you can apply a Rod and a Feat to the same spell if you like (Using Heighten Spell as a Feat, and a Rod of Persistent Spell). Persistent Spell doesn't help your Dominate Person to resist the effects of a Protection From Evil which is placed on your minion, but Heighten does. Spell Focus (Enchantment) will as well -- and, really, you shouldn't be an Enchanter if you aren't willing to take Greater Spell Focus in the school. If you're more of a generalist and you happen to be using Enchantments often right now, that's perfectly understandable, though.
A Ring of Counterspell is a very good idea for minions -- but also for yourself! Feeblemind is nasty. The problem with relying on such Rings is that you can only have one spell ready to be countered from it at any given time... Alternatively, though it is expensive, you could hand your minion a Rod of Absorption after you've Dominated them. I believe this requires your minion to keep the Rod in hand, though it is fairly sovereign.
TL;DR: Dispel the Protection. You should have Dispel Magic ready to go at all times anyway, the more the merrier.
Does this help?
Circle of protection from evil.
What's that?
Things you can do against Protection from Somethingorother:
- Retreat and wait. It only lasts a minute per level.
- Dispel Magic
- Don't try to enchant enemies; enchant innocent bystanders instead. They're not likely to be warded.
- Get the drop on your foes, and enchant them before they can protect themselves.
- Give the enemy something more pressing to do than putting up warding spells.
- Deny the enemy the option: sunder Divine Foci or Spell Component Pouches.
Circle of protection from evil.What's that?
Things you can do against Protection from Somethingorother:
- Retreat and wait. It only lasts a minute per level.
- Dispel Magic
- Don't try to enchant enemies; enchant innocent bystanders instead. They're not likely to be warded.
- Get the drop on your foes, and enchant them before they can protect themselves.
- Give the enemy something more pressing to do than putting up warding spells.
- Deny the enemy the option: sunder Divine Foci or Spell Component Pouches.
Or Silence them or Paralyze them or Feeblemind them and so on. If the DM is really being a douche, they'll have it Stilled, Silenced and Eschewed, but then you'll have found out the more valuable information: that you should switch to play with a different group.
I think the moral of this story is that you shouldn't be a one-trick pony. Of all the tools available to a high level Mystic Theurge, a mere Protection From Evil should serve as a negligible obstacle. Even a very narrowly specialized and fluffed spellcaster should be more than capable of a variety of other tricks that aren't as easily circumvented.
So if you find yourself so easily stumped by a level 2 spell, that's definitely a neon sign that you as a player should learn something from the experience.
The big disadvantage of using the wizard side of a mystic theurge for enchantment attacks against foes is that you are three caster levels behind and have to split your casting attributes for attacks that involve saving throws -- and you need every advantage you can get when casting such spells. I would definitely look to include Fox's Cunning among your spells.
Another thing to keep in mind with an Enchanter is that Protection from X doesn't protect your enemy from all enchantment spells, only the ones that grant you some measure of control. Spells like confusion and hold person should still work even against a warded target.
Relevant FAQ
The big disadvantage of using the wizard side of a mystic theurge for enchantment attacks against foes is that you are three caster levels behind and have to split your casting attributes for attacks that involve saving throws -- and you need every advantage you can get when casting such spells. I would definitely look to include Fox's Cunning among your spells.
Fox's Cunning does not stack with other enhancement bonuses which a mid/high level spellcaster definitely should already have via equipment (Headband of Vast Intellect should be upgraded at every possible opportunity anyway).
Caster level doesn't directly affect spell save DCs (aside from providing access to higher spell levels, that is), though, in the case of Dominate Person, it would most noticeably affect duration. The mechanics which determine spell save DCs were deliberately designed to decrease dependency on your caster level. For the most part, Mystic Theurges just suffer from a crippled early game and delayed access to "cutting edge" spells. Compare to 3/4 casters like the Bard and Inquisitor.
My personal opinion about the Mystic Theurge is... why? Why wouldn't you just generate a Witch character instead and enjoy full casting progression? Particularly for an Enchanter-type. But that's not really in the scope of this thread.
Another thing to keep in mind with an Enchanter is that Protection from X doesn't protect your enemy from all enchantment spells, only the ones that grant you some measure of control. Spells like confusion and hold person should still work even against a warded target.
Relevant FAQ
Absolutely. This is probably a matter of strategy: don't bother with Dominate Person when your foe isn't likely (or needed) to survive the next three rounds of combat. Confusion, on the other hand, is your almighty gobstopper for mooks.
Good point -- I overlooked magic items there. But the general principle holds -- look for anything that can increase your save DCs, either for the Enchantment school specifically or in general.
I think some of the confusion (at least for me) is your use of the word 'minions.' To me a minion is someone I hired to do something (or is following for religious reasons, etc...). But I now think you are using it to describe several charmed creatures doing your bidding.
If you are LN. Your victim walks into the area of a circle of protection from law or someone casts protection from law on it. Then it gets a new save at +2. If it fails the save, no effect. If it makes the save, the charm is suppressed for the duration of the protection from law spell. Then it will take affect again (if both of you are still alive of course).
Careful about the limits of charm monster. Charm monster makes you its new best friend not its master. If a fight breaks out around you and your new best friend, he will try to protect you. But might not attack his former friends. Might just try to talk both sides into not fighting. It depends on the creature.
If you told your real life best friend to accompany you into a hole in the ground to fight off all the creepy crawlies for you, he would probably tell you no. In fact he might try real hard to talk you into not going so you wouldn't be in danger. You would probably need a decent diplomacy or bluff check to get them to adventure with you.
[disclaimer] The above represents a quick approximation of my understandings of the rules on this subject. It in no way represents the opinions of anyone with any official standing. Nor is it all inclusive of everything I might or might not believe or have said on the subject at this time, in the past, or in the unknown future... [/disclaimer]
I don't think many people are going to believe that charmed giants are redeemed. Besides, just because they like you does not make them like everyone else in town. Them liking you will not stop them from eating the farmer.
As I said, charmed has limits.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
So you will be making charisma checks all the time to get them to behave themselves. Even if they have a crappy charisma, sometimes they will roll well when you roll bad. Then unpleasantness insues.
Not saying don't bother or it's useless. Just saying there is a lot of potential problems that must be considered.
First of all, just to be clear:
It's not about DD or a particularly sadistic GM.
I don't have only enchantment but I would like to play my fluff... Usually, I go with buff and necromancy.
I am W3/C3/MT4. Int20, Wis14. So spell level4 for now (charm monster).
This is not about controlling a protected one but someone already controlled that is the target of such spell (or who enter a Magic Circle against X, VRMH)
Magic Circle vs. Evil is easily destroyed as noted in the spell's description. Just mess up the delicate circle of powder that forms the boundary. Remember that your minions, if they are not summoned, are not prevented from directly disturbing the circle. It's probably a free action to just shout "kick the circle!" to your thrall. You yourself could just cast Gust Of Wind, for instance, and *poof!* there goes the carefully laid ward.
The other effects, if your minion skipped over the boundary to enter the area of the spell, are just as if Protection From Evil was cast on your minion. That is, your minion gets a save to suppress the effect of your mental control (at +2) while he remains inside the area of the Circle. If he leaves the Circle before your control spell's duration has lapsed, or if the Circle collapses (its duration lapses or the Circle is broken or the spell otherwise ends), then your control spell resumes as normal as though nothing had interrupted it (you still lose the duration which was spent while suppressed).
My main point is that I want to play a Wizard with some minions that don't change side at the first ennemy...
You can consider that money or spell are not a problem.
Constructs and undead are generally better for that purpose, all of these methods have their own benefits and tradeoffs though. So far as I know, nothing is preventing an enemy caster from simply casting Dominate Person on your Dominated minion to wrest control from you directly! Almost certainly would provoke a Charisma contest between you, but it's definitely possible. Dispel is by far the more likely strategy if an enemy caster knows what is giving you control over someone, and that's not something you can counter without actually using the Counterspell action or hoping his check isn't high enough to Dispel your spell (you're already at a -3 CL penalty relative to a full caster at your character's level).
Constructs are, with few exceptions, immune to mind control magic, though they aren't necessarily very durable relative to other creatures of their Challenge Rating / Hit Dice. They are just about the next closest thing to an "absolutely loyal minion", which just doesn't really exist in the game using RAW. Still, an adamantine golem is a terror to behold, it just comes with a price tag to match. You can create your own golems without needing the Wizard Discovery, too.
Undead are another popular possibility, but definitely more fickle since there are a variety of spells and effects specifically designed to steal control over them. They are immune to general [Mind Affecting] spells as well as a host of other immunities, which is good, and if you create them using the Create Undead family of spells, you start out automatically controlling them. The ones you can create yourself are pretty weak but you can create as many as you like -- just be careful because you can't control more than a certain number of Hit Dice of undead at any given time. If you have in mind a task which doesn't require finesse or active strategy (go forth and slay the living!), a horde of zombies can be perfectly serviceable and affordable. If you want a powerful bodyguard, undead aren't likely to be good enough if you're relying on the ones you can personally create. Constructs and Created undead don't affect your Leadership feat, so you can have Cohorts, followers, constructs and undead thralls all following you around -- on top of anything you can Dominate or Charm into helping you, too!
A Mystic Theurge is a tough row to hoe if you're going this route, but more power to ya if your DM doesn't just put his foot down and start accounting for all your slaves when he generates combat encounters.
- I was said that Protection from X suppressed possession. It just gives a new save. Thanks!
It does both, yes. Like this:
If
Your Dominated minion is targeted by Protection From <Your Alignment>,
Then
Your minion first gets to make a Will save vs. the Protection spell to negate it entirely, no further effects if successful.
If failed, then
Your minion is affected by the Protection spell, he gets a new save, with a +2 morale bonus, vs. your Dominate spell which will suppress your Domination for the duration of the Protection spell if successful.
IF
Either of these saves goes in your favor, then you still control your minion as if nothing happened.
- I thought it was against all possession spell, not only aligned one? Meaning if I am a LN, only Protection from Lawfull works?
Here's the link to the spell again.
This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion
So if you are Law-Neutral, then your minions must be targeted by Protection From Law, otherwise they just get a free buff providing them protection from some other alignment. Yay.
The spell's description also states what happens in the case of possession effects like Magic Jar:
While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target
- A Silence spell on them is a nice idea. And it has other use. ^^
My advice is to cast Silence on an object your minion is carrying. This will provide them with a bonus to their Stealth so they can sneak up on an enemy spellcaster more easily (only sounds, not vision!), and if they stay close to their target, the enemy caster can't just walk out of the area of the effect. Pretty nasty. Beware that your target caster may be able to outrun your minion, and being in the zone of Silence doesn't interrupt any ongoing spells the way an Antimagic Field would. But a Rogue with Silence cast on her sword is pretty dangerous, nonetheless. Probably better not to target your minion directly with the Silence spell because you might decide you want your minion to be able to make noise (so don't target her weapon either, put the spell on something your minion can throw away from herself with no problem).
If your DM is a real cranky bastard, he may rule that a spellcaster can cast spells on his turn provided he can make it outside the area of the Silence effect your minion is carrying. For example, your minion, emitting an aura of Silence, creeps up next to your enemy Wizard. Enemy Wizard realizes what's happening and uses his Move action to get outside the radius of the Silence -- leaving him with a Standard Action to cast a spell before it's your minion's turn again. Using terrain to restrict the enemy's movement and possibly careful use of the Readied Action option should allow your minion to stick close to your foe. And grappling.
"After I cast this spell on you, go tackle that S.O.B." Grapple is your best friend against casters.
- Rod of absorption is one costly solution. But pretty neat. Maybe on the chief of my minions...
Or yourself! Look at where it says you can consume the stored spell levels to power your own spellcasting.
- Dispel Magic to reclaim my minions is a good one but I'm a bit behind when it comes to CL...
That's the price you pay for being a multiclassed spellcaster. Again, my advice would have been that you should create a Witch character instead of a Mystic Theurge. Though I've always had such a hardon for Theurges, the way they're written, they just don't work the way you'd want them to.
I have a slew of problems with the Witch class, but you probably won't if you're not really into the subtleties of game design.
Alternatively, just take the Dangerously Curious trait and play a straight-up Wizard, employing Use Magic Device for healing and the odd one or two spells from the Cleric list that you want. It seriously is quite by far and away more powerful than any Mystic Theurge build can ever be, especially since money seems to be no object to you or your group.
I don't think many people are going to believe that charmed giants are redeemed. Besides, just because they like you does not make them like everyone else in town. Them liking you will not stop them from eating the farmer.
As I said, charmed has limits.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.So you will be making charisma checks all the time to get them to behave themselves. Even if they have a crappy charisma, sometimes they will roll well when you roll bad. Then unpleasantness insues.
Not saying don't bother or it's useless. Just saying there is a lot of potential problems that must be considered.
He's right, Charm spells have real limits. They don't "control" a subject, they just adjust the subject's attitude toward the caster. It's not mental enslavement, more like a glorified Diplomacy roll... which requires more Diplomacy and Charisma rolls if you want to convince your new best friend that he should do something. The benefit of the spell is that you at least get the chance to convince them rather than your words being ignored and him attacking you on sight.
Disturbing the silver dust in this context would do nothing. It's only used during the spell's casting. The emanation then follows the target around.
The circle only really matters during calling ceremonies.
Disturbing the silver dust in this context would do nothing. It's only used during the spell's casting. The emanation then follows the target around.
The circle only really matters during calling ceremonies.
Are you talking about the "Area" parameter's wording as "emanation from touched creature"? Because the spell's description doesn't really describe how it works in the first "case", so we've always assumed that it worked as an "outward focused" effect just like the "trap" version in reverse.
I.e., not as a "Mass Protection From Evil", but more like a sort of Hallow or Consecrate effect.
Reading comprehension failure on our part? Maybe just fitting our DM's idea of flavor? Not a spell I come across with enough frequency...
If the OP's group is amenable to Pathfinder-izing old 3.5 stuff, look into the Mindbender Prestige Class from Complete Arcane. As a half-caster, it's probably not worth it as written, but maybe your DM will tweak it to be more attractive by Pathfinder standards.
Of course, if you're gonna go that far, the Mindbender is really just a gimpy shadow of the Summoner Base Case from Paizo... So nevermind me.
This is why I play Neutral.
There is no "Protection from Neutral"
That is certainly a tactic but from what i have seen it's quite difficult to stay Neutral, sooner or later your alignment is going to change one way or the other.
For example in my RotR game 3 players started as non good (LN, LN and CN), around the time of the 3rd book they have changed to NG, LN and CG and the one who stayed LN tried very hard to not become good (including casting evil spells and spells like sacrifice).In another (homebrewed) game i played half the party (of 6) started as non good (CN, LN and N) and the rest of the party was either LG or NG, when we were halfway through the campaign we were 5 good (even the druid who started as N ended up NG) and one evil (because that character became a vampire but managed to talk the DM into allowing him to keep the character) PC. Also it was really hard in that campaign to stay chaotic, my CN magus who became CG was struggling in order to stay chaotic and not become NG.
So in my experience (and especially in APs) it's really hard to stay N, because most stories push you to good really fast or/and party composition push you torwards Law or Chaos.
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I play neutral characters as utilitarians (which is pretty easy to do as I am utilitarian). For example, my wizard would have zero problem with sacrificing a few virgins to the foul evil if it meant sparing a town of hundreds.
He does whatever gives him the best outcome at the time, with no real regard for morality or order. That is in my opinion, neutral.
... He does whatever gives him the best outcome at the time, with no real regard for morality or order. That is in my opinion, neutral.
Some people would call that chaotic neutral. Possibly even chaotic evil. I don't get that worked up over it when I am GM. The other GM does only a little bit with paladin, samuri, and cavalier codes.
I play neutral characters as utilitarians (which is pretty easy to do as I am utilitarian). For example, my wizard would have zero problem with sacrificing a few virgins to the foul evil if it meant sparing a town of hundreds.
He does whatever gives him the best outcome at the time, with no real regard for morality or order. That is in my opinion, neutral.
Ok i just read a few things on wikipedia about utilitarianism (but with not having seen it or heard of it before) i have to say that by doing that you probably are neutral on the good and evil axis but it you would still have to try balance between law and chaos, but it's certainly a start.
Of course i don't know how the rest of the PCs would react to such a behaviour or which Golarion deity would favor his follower with such a view.
One last question, what about lowering their saves? I mean, I don't really care if they die, or if they go to another side with a spell that is same or higher level than mine: Fair enough.
So, is it possible to lower will save for a long duration?
Witches are fantastic at lowering their victim's saves before SoD'ing them, famously so. Wizards (and by extension, MTs) do still have some tools. Mind Fog and Bestow Curse most notably.
I prefer Curse because it's permanent -- makes for much more pliable long-term slaves. If you're gonna use the lower level version, then remember the spell called Spectral Hand which allows you to deliver touch attacks at a range (rather putting your Familiar in danger).
If you're gonna attack Fortitude (Flesh To Stone, Baleful Polymorph and Blind/Deaf) or Reflex (Web, Create Pit or even Dazing Fireball), you can throw some Poison, Cloudkill or Disease at your target first.
And let's not forget the ultimate go-to debuff, Enervation. Negative levels are quite nasty, and ranged touch attacks tend to be the easiest spells to land. A Wand of this spell can reduce a BBEG to a mewling kitten in a few rounds without you needing to expend a single spell of your own. The key is that it doesn't allow a save: if the ray touches your target, they are affected (provided they have no Spell Resistance, of course). And negative levels stack.
If you really want to cripple your target's Will save, zap him with negative levels before Bestowing a Curse. It becomes rather likely that the negative levels will become permanent, which may or may not be desirable depending on the uses you have in mind for your new slave.
The problem with Feeblemind as a debuff is that it doesn't hurt their Wisdom. It is instantaneous duration, though, which means it can't be reversed easily. It does destroy arcane casters pretty effectively, and most DMs would agree that anyone with an Int score of 1 is fairly unable to resist some manipulation.
There's other spells, of course, that debuff various things. Crushing Despair, Overwhelming Grief, Slow, Sands Of Time, and so on. So there's plenty of options for crippling any of your targets' saves, even just on the Arcane side of things.
For "permanent" Will save reduction, Enervation followed up by Bestow (Major) Curse is still king.
Another trick that takes a little more micro-managing would be to order your slave to forego their save against your next spell. Probably can't do it with a Charmed target, but I think a Dominated target wouldn't get a chance. Maybe you can convince your Charmed friend that you're trying to put him to sleep so he can feel well-rested in the morning... Remember that creatures which are unconscious count as "willing" (look under the "Aiming A Spell" section). I think a DM would have a hard time arguing that even magically induced slumber doesn't count as "unconscious".
Negative levels from Enervation can never become permanent.
I think I was thinking of Energy Drain, the level 9 version, which is quite far beyond the powers of a level 10 MT, isn't it.
What does your alignment have to do with anything?
The ability of protection from XX spells to suppress enchantment/compulsion effects has nothing to do with the alignment of anyone on either side of the equation.
It does matter what your alignment is. From the "vs. Evil" version of the spell:
This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
I think I was thinking of Energy Drain, the level 9 version, which is quite far beyond the powers of a level 10 MT, isn't it.
Not if you have Esoteric Training.
I think I was thinking of Energy Drain, the level 9 version, which is quite far beyond the powers of a level 10 MT, isn't it.Not if you have Esoteric Training.
What's that?
It's an ability that grants you +3 caster level in one spellcasting class, and +1 caster level in another. Unlike normal caster level bonuses, this increase actually DOES increase your spells known and spells per day.
Stack that with the trait that increases your caster level in one spellcasting class by +2 and you end up with a character with near full spellcasting potential in two classes.
You can get this ability by joining a generic spellcasting guild and obtaining a Fame score of 35 or higher (generally doable by level 7 or 8).
You can find the rules for it in Inner Sea Magic.
You can find the rules for it in Inner Sea Magic.
Golarion specific or PFS-specific splatbook? That's definitely not part of the "core standard", so I don't think anyone should expect that it be "always available" for play.
If you're gonna go to such lengths, you may as well start including legacy stuff from 3.5 like the Races Of Faerun campaign setting book and then just ask your DM for permission about each little thing.
Which some DMs are fine with, but should probably be mentioned as a caveat rather than assumed.
In any case, the character is 3/3/4 so a total character level of 10. If you can throw level 9 spells at character level 10, that's definitely not working as intended. =P
This Esoteric Training ability sounds a lot like Practiced Spellcaster to me, so I'm pretty willing to bet that you're still limited by your total character level regardless of how many bonus caster levels these traits grant you.
You said "... a level 10 MT..."
I would guess he thought you meant 10 levels of the mystic theurge prestige class not a level 10 character with only 4 levels of mystic theurge.
You can find the rules for it in Inner Sea Magic.Golarion specific or PFS-specific splatbook? That's definitely not part of the "core standard", so I don't think anyone should expect that it be "always available" for play.
You never gave a list of what sources you were limited to, so I didn't let it effect my advice. In any case, I never said or even intentionally hinted that it was an "always available" option. There really is no such thing, as even things in Core (like Leadership) are often off limits.
Having said that though, I'd imagine that Golarion products, still being Paizo publications for the Pathfinder game, would be the next most available thing behind the core rules.
This Esoteric Training ability sounds a lot like Practiced Spellcaster to me, so I'm pretty willing to bet that you're still limited by your total character level regardless of how many bonus caster levels these traits grant you.
Yes. There is a caveat in the ability that it cannot go higher than your character level.
Still, when used with the +2 CL trait, that means you have +3 CL to two casting classes.
So your cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 4 could be casting wizard spells as though he were a level 10 wizard (CL 10, 5th-level spells) and cleric spells as though he were a level 8 cleric (CL 10, 4th-level spells)--or vice versa (5th-level spells for cleric and 4th-level spells for wizard).
It's the only way mystic theurge really ever becomes a competitive option.
Having said that though, I'd imagine that Golarion products, still being Paizo publications for the Pathfinder game, would be the next most available thing behind the core rules.
Maybe I have the worst luck, but DMs tend to be a fickle lot. If they aren't anal about which pages of which books are allowed in play, they interpret everything according to a houserule tome a mile thick. Or they're one of those guys who haaaaaaates spellcasters. Or it's a "low-magic campaign" in which the BSF gets world-shattering magical weaponry of lore and artifacts that only non-casters can use. Or arcane magic is illegal and all Clerics are the servants of dark and terrible gods, warped by insanity and doomed to die from taint... You get the picture.
These days I just have to assume that absolutely everything is off limits unless specifically ok'd by the DM. And yes, it's a PITA.
This Esoteric Training ability sounds a lot like Practiced Spellcaster to me, so I'm pretty willing to bet that you're still limited by your total character level regardless of how many bonus caster levels these traits grant you.Yes. There is a caveat in the ability that it cannot go higher than your character level.
Still, when used with the +2 CL trait, that means you have +3 CL to two casting classes.
So your cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 4 could be casting wizard spells as though he were a level 10 wizard (CL 10, 5th-level spells) and cleric spells as though he were a level 8 cleric (CL 10, 4th-level spells)--or vice versa (5th-level spells for cleric and 4th-level spells for wizard).
It's the only way mystic theurge really ever becomes a competitive option.
I thought Practiced Spellcaster could only be applied to one of your classes at a time? So wouldn't that mean that, at best, a 3/3/4 would be casting as a level 7 Wizard and level 6 Cleric? I mean, unless you put both Esoteric and that other Trait on the same class.
Do you have a link to this stuff?
You said "... a level 10 MT..."
I would guess he thought you meant 10 levels of the mystic theurge prestige class not a level 10 character with only 4 levels of mystic theurge.
Uh, it's not my character, but if you'd been reading the thread, you'd have seen the exact spread of class levels of the character under discussion.
In any case, a 3/3/10 MT is still only level 16, but I'd be very interested in seeing a Mystic Theurge build capable of casting level 9 spells at character level 16...
What does your alignment have to do with anything?
The ability of protection from XX spells to suppress enchantment/compulsion effects has nothing to do with the alignment of anyone on either side of the equation.
So the LN wizards dominated minions will be affected if the opponent uses Protection from Law, or Protection from Chaos or any other.
I am pretty sure that this is wrong.
You said "... a level 10 MT..."
I would guess he thought you meant 10 levels of the mystic theurge prestige class not a level 10 character with only 4 levels of mystic theurge.Uh, it's not my character, but if you'd been reading the thread, you'd have seen the exact spread of class levels of the character under discussion.
In any case, a 3/3/10 MT is still only level 16, but I'd be very interested in seeing a Mystic Theurge build capable of casting level 9 spells at character level 16...
I knew what the levels were, but RD jumped in a bit later.
A sorta convention I've seen on the forums is when you use the highest level of the prestige class it sometimes is used as a shorthand to mean the end of the build.
So when someone says a MT 10 can cast 9th level arcane spells. They mean that eventually a C3/W7/MT10 will gain 9th level spell casting ability.
It is not always the case, but people aren't too consistent about conventions or standards on the boards. Just like if you ask a question about lawful, muchkin, optimize, etc... You will have an instant flame war long before anyone starts reading carefully enough or explains them self carefully enough to realize that they are arguing about different things.
You said "... a level 10 MT..."
I would guess he thought you meant 10 levels of the mystic theurge prestige class not a level 10 character with only 4 levels of mystic theurge.Uh, it's not my character, but if you'd been reading the thread, you'd have seen the exact spread of class levels of the character under discussion.
In any case, a 3/3/10 MT is still only level 16, but I'd be very interested in seeing a Mystic Theurge build capable of casting level 9 spells at character level 16...
I knew what the levels were, but RD jumped in a bit later.
A sorta convention I've seen on the forums is when you use the highest level of the prestige class it sometimes is used as a shorthand to mean the end of the build.
So when someone says a MT 10 can cast 9th level arcane spells. They mean that eventually a C3/W7/MT10 will gain 9th level spell casting ability.
It is not always the case, but people aren't too consistent about conventions or standards on the boards. Just like if you ask a question about lawful, muchkin, optimize, etc... You will have an instant flame war long before anyone starts reading carefully enough or explains them self carefully enough to realize that they are arguing about different things.
A... "munchkin"...? What's that? Dare I ask?
Convention elsewhere may be different than that of this board -- it's pretty ambiguous, no matter what convention you're using, what the exact combination of class levels may be if you're gonna use shorthand to describe characters in this game. Part of the hopelessly complicated mess of multiclassing under d20, I guess. At least, by using a class-based system of character development, d20 isn't as complicated as GURPS or something. God forbid we be able to pick and choose from the whole buffet...
"He's a 2,000 point character"
"Yeah, but what does he do??"
A... "munchkin"...? What's that? Dare I ask?
Many people only use the term for someone who is knowingly cheating.
Some for people exploiting mistakes or loopholes in the system for great effect (3.x's great cleave and bag of rats).
A few people seem to use it to insult anyone that doesn't play the way they do.
Many see no difference between powergamers, optimizers, and munchkin's.
But if anyone really wants to discuss the topic, it should be in a different thread.