Many good points.
I'll try to move beyond it, but I'm a dude, so it's going to sound creepy. What if we figure how to bring young girls into the RPG scene? (But in a cool, not creepy, way.)
I was a young boy (like prepubescent) when I started playing, but i didn't deal with a mixed group till college, and even at that late date the ratio was still way off in favor of boys. Gaming is a lifestyle choice, and those decisions are made early in life. I think the simplest thing we can do is introduce RPGs to young girls. (But like I said, NOT IN A CREEPY WAY.)
The man has a bunch of solid points. It is rather sad how the female RPer is viewed. I have played with a good number of the fairer sex, and those have been some of the best games. We should as a community also encourage lady GM's, my last fem GM was masterful, i should find her and get her in an add. Also have we as a community consider the huge sexist bend/learn gaming seems to have. pick up at MM and look for jubblies, it will make my point, which is a point I should think we as a social group may well in this day and age NOT wish to make.
I'll try to move beyond it, but I'm a dude, so it's going to sound creepy. What if we figure how to bring young girls into the RPG scene? (But in a cool, not creepy, way.)
It's ok, I raised the same issue.
The young players are the 'scene' in years to come; if they aren't playing now, the likelihood they will 'discover' the game in their late teens/adulthood diminishes.
Tween to teen girls are a hard group to work with, I do volunteer work with that demographic and they are highly conscious of being very 'same same' and mainstream, deviations to the 'norm' can be difficult and the girls try keep individual tastes very much under wraps.
Example - My daughter has a black belt; totally NOT a conversation piece amongst her peers.
I personally think that it is the growth aspect of gaming that should be shown to the young members of both genders. My own choice of gaming at that early age I believe made be a better person as I now grow older (than I'd like). Playing the hero, villain, and victim I think can change how people approach RL and how they see themselves in our social structure. I guess I'm saying to a degree we can through RP learn honor, self sacrifice, and accountability. Thus it is good to spread to the young ladies (NOT in a creepy way as Neil says)gaming and RP. Imagination is not usually a bad thing to cultivate either.
I'd cart my Hobbit to the next Games con and then quiz her about it afterwards (shes pretty on point with the teen trends) but it is in a pub so I'm not so keen.
I think one of the biggest things, and this goes for a lot more than just female players, is communication between the GM and the players about what kind of game everyone wants to play. This is especially important when you want to enter territory such as sexism, sexual violence, violence against children, and so on. Any GM who wants to touch that needs to know how the players are going to feel about it.
I'm usually alright with rape, villians who target children, torture, and all sorts of goriness in my games, but frequent put downs towards female warriors make me want to flip the table. I tolerate a lot, but not "Get back in the kitchen!" or "Make me a sandwich!", and I'd rather that not be in games I play in. Many women, however, do not have my tolerance for sexual violence or dead kids, feeling very uncomfortable in such a game. If that's the case, the GM needs to leave it out of the game while she's part of the group, just like the GM needs to leave most of the snide comments about women in combat out of the games I'm in.
To put it simply, every woman has different opinions on what is and is not sexist. If you find out what your players do and don't have problems with, you can work around it, and keep people comfortable. You'll also know what everybody likes in their games, meaning you can give them more of it. This is something any GM needs to be doing with their groups.
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Well said Kelsey.
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Two things real quick:
1.) To summarize S.K.R., don't be a jerk.
2.) Encourage girls to role play early. Part of the turn off is that people try to get girls involved long after they have decided that Fantasy Roleplaying is for geeks and something to steer clear. Shows such as Big Ban Theory maintain that perception, and IMO, not in an inclusive light. This Christmas I introduced my neices to a fun RPG known as Mouse Guard. We spent a great deal of time (for their age) discussing what they wanted their characters to be like, their goals and skills, strengths and weaknesses and why. We played a little bit and by the time I was done the younger one was so enthralled she went and tried to check the book out of her school's library. They didn't let her, said it was for teenagers. She is 7.
I think opening the eyes of girls up to the wonders of role playing games early is essential to getting more female gamers in games at cons later on. If that is the sole goal. I don't actually care if she or my other neice ever plays any fantasy RPG. I am more pleased that they had a chance to use the problem solving side of their brains. That was my main goal. Oh, and we also watched The Hobbit at the movie theater.
Two things real quick:
1.) To summarize S.K.R., don't be a jerk.
2.) Encourage girls to role play early. Part of the turn off is that people try to get girls involved long after they have decided that Fantasy Roleplaying is for geeks and something to steer clear. Shows such as Big Ban Theory maintain that perception, and IMO, not in an inclusive light. This Christmas I introduced my neices to a fun RPG known as Mouse Guard. We spent a great deal of time (for their age) discussing what they wanted their characters to be like, their goals and skills, strengths and weaknesses and why. We played a little bit and by the time I was done the younger one was so enthralled she went and tried to check the book out of her school's library. They didn't let her, said it was for teenagers. She is 7.
I think opening the eyes of girls up to the wonders of role playing games early is essential to getting more female gamers in games at cons later on. If that is the sole goal. I don't actually care if she or my other neice ever plays any fantasy RPG. I am more pleased that they had a chance to use the problem solving side of their brains. That was my main goal. Oh, and we also watched The Hobbit at the movie theater.
Sasha, did your niece try to check the Mouse Guard comic (graphic novel, whatever) or the RPG out of the library? Either one is entirely age appropriate, as far as I'm concerned.
I think one of the biggest things, and this goes for a lot more than just female players, is communication between the GM and the players about what kind of game everyone wants to play. This is especially important when you want to enter territory such as sexism, sexual violence, violence against children, and so on. Any GM who wants to touch that needs to know how the players are going to feel about it.
They aren't my concepts (though the opening spiel for a con table is mine), but I like them. I mention in that post, I don't have a lot of boundaries as far as topics/themes, so when gaming with strangers, I like to make it explicit that they are allowed to make boundaries that are comfortable for them.
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Sasha, did your niece try to check the Mouse Guard comic (graphic novel, whatever) or the RPG out of the library? Either one is entirely age appropriate, as far as I'm concerned.Two things real quick:
1.) To summarize S.K.R., don't be a jerk.
2.) Encourage girls to role play early. Part of the turn off is that people try to get girls involved long after they have decided that Fantasy Roleplaying is for geeks and something to steer clear. Shows such as Big Ban Theory maintain that perception, and IMO, not in an inclusive light. This Christmas I introduced my neices to a fun RPG known as Mouse Guard. We spent a great deal of time (for their age) discussing what they wanted their characters to be like, their goals and skills, strengths and weaknesses and why. We played a little bit and by the time I was done the younger one was so enthralled she went and tried to check the book out of her school's library. They didn't let her, said it was for teenagers. She is 7.
I think opening the eyes of girls up to the wonders of role playing games early is essential to getting more female gamers in games at cons later on. If that is the sole goal. I don't actually care if she or my other neice ever plays any fantasy RPG. I am more pleased that they had a chance to use the problem solving side of their brains. That was my main goal. Oh, and we also watched The Hobbit at the movie theater.
Let's just say that her birthday is in a few days and I am a good auntie. :-)
It strikes me as I spend the dark hours writing NPC's for game, that the entire "problem" as we have been referring to it as falls directly back to modern fractured gender identity, and the myriad of different roles women occupy. Some old stigmas are dead in gen X/Y as pointed out, but the 30-40 age range seems to be oddly going the other direction. This is simply my experience, but such things are relative. The table shock value of an attractive woman has thrown off a player or two at my own table, despite my best efforts while GMing.
I have said this before and really no one responded very much to it. Is there a reason why Pazio organized games can't have a zero tolerence for certain behavior?
I mean hitting people who 'roll to rape' and such balant bad behavior with life time bans from these events might not fix everything but it would be a giant step in the right direction.
In all honesty I am not worried about what happens in home games that are not my own. Also I don't believe we have the right to tell somebody what happens in their home games.
But the games at Cons and PFS is out public face...I think we need to clean that up.
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I mean hitting people who 'roll to rape' and such balant bad behavior with life time bans from these events might not fix everything but it would be a giant step in the right direction.
Most places already have a conduct rider in the application forms.
On the bright side, I have never seen a player even suggest such a thing at any table I have been are, nor heard from friends of them witnessing such an act. And they'd be the first to tell if they'd seen it.
Alright, prepare for a bit of a rant.
I'm not a dedicated feminist by any stretch of the imagination, but cultural and gender studies have always fascinated me, and in addressing the question of how to better accommodate female gamers, I think one must first recognize that the very idea of feminism is something of a catch 22. Please do not misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's foolish (it's not), or that it's unnecessary (it isn't). What I mean is that there is a subtle but dire problem involving identity when it comes to issues like this. It's right there in the name of feminism – in many cases, both women and men will identify females first and foremost a woman. To them, that is what defines her more than anything else, and for men, this is seldom the case. “Strong woman” has become a familiar archetype of identity in our culture, but it “woman” is still a part of that identity, and, conversion, a strong male is likely to simple be labeled as “strong.” The reasons for this vary radically. For some, it is a way to objectify them, and for others, this definition serves as a basis for how to treat them appropriately, but they are still being singled out due to their gender.
There are reasons for this – for ages and ages the world was filled with male-dominated societies. A century ago, a woman looking to advance the position of her gender gender HAD to bring it to the forefront of her self-definition, because brushing it aside as inconsequential would have seemed laughable to anyone at the time. As such, this practice of using a woman's gender to identify herself has colored the feminist movement ever since its inception. There are still portions of our society that are woefully backwards, but there are also many parts of the world where we have advanced enough to take the next logical step, which is to shed the idea that ANYONE'S gender ought to be their primary identifier.
AS SUCH, if you're thinking to yourself “My oh my, there's a woman in my gaming group, how should I treat her?” you're already off to the wrong foot. The fact that she is a woman is a factor, but if you treat it as the sole factor, there's still a problem. One has to recognize the complexities of gender identity and gender roles, and how it affects and is affected by other issues.
For example, as Jessica has pointed out, the gaming industry has been heavily skewed towards the heterosexual white male for a loooong time. This means it has seemed largely inaccessible to females, which may mean that many woman joining a gaming group are approaching it with less experience than the males, who are more likely to have grown up with video games or fantasy novels for company. This is not always the case, but it happens often enough that consciously or not, I think many people assume females “just don't have a head for the game,” which is ridiculous. She may have less experience, which is related to, but not because of, her gender. In this case, don't say “she knows less because she's a woman,” instead, recognize her as a new player, rather than a female player, and take all of the measures you would with a new player of the male gender. Singling someone out just because of their gender, even with positive intentions, does not promote understanding, equality, or comfort.
This is only one example, but it comes down to appreciating context, recognizing the background of your player, and avoiding sweeping generalizations, especially based on gender.
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I'm thinking that if you're stepping into the role of DM at a public table, it might be a good idea to make an announcement at the beginning that runs along the lines of
"Hi folks, I'm your DM for the game. I'd like to preface by saying I don't know many/any of your here. I'll approach this as professionally as possible, but if I say or do something stupid/insensitive, please let me know. As we all know, what works for some doesn't for others, and I'd rather know I've made a mistake and fix rather than keep doing so. I'd like all of us to keep this in mind while we play and let's make sure we have a fun game."
This covers both DMing errors and social errors for new people when they meet.
Perhaps there is something that can be written specifically into the guidelines for PFS that specifies this type of thing for all players to follow. I know my sons martial arts club has both a set of tenets/ rules the club has to follow, as well one for the students (there's even one for the parents hehe).
If this thing is published and regularly enforced, it will go a long way towards not just making women feeling more welcome at gaming events, but also new players in general.
It's the type of statement an event organiser can read out to all players at the beginning, and is the type of document that can be referred to if someone starts stepping over the line regularly.
Maybe include such a statement as "Please remember, as a public and open gaming forum, we need to observe the rules of social etiquette here. This includes language restrictions, content issues and possible harassment. Be polite, patient and helpful and well have a great time."
Hmmm, some of that sounds fAirly condescending, but I hope the intent is made clear. Paizo is filled with people who can write amazingly,I reckon they could wrangle up a far better group of words to that type of meaning across.
Hope that's kind of helpful.
Cheers
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I think, if I was to run a game in a more public setting (rather than with my usual group of friends) I would probably begin the game with something similar to what you suggested, Wrath. Maybe like:
"Hey everyone, I'm going to be your GM here today/tonight and I hope I can make it an awesome game. First off, I want to make it clear that if you have a problem with anything, whether that's in game or out, always feel free to speak up about it. I want everyone to feel comfortable being themselves and playing here together. Be courteous, be kind, and be excellent to each other, and I'm sure we'll have an amazing time today/tonight."
Rough, but you get the general gist. Depending on the environment I might also mention "safe space" kind of concepts, but if it's just a random PFS game at a game shop for example, I'd probably avoid that.
Something like this is certainly inclusive no matter what gender or race or age or sexuality or anything you are.
I just assume everyone is a decent person and don't need my to calibrate them (and possibly patronise them) before they interact with other people - I assume whoever has been looking after them for the years prior has probably already done that :)
I'm very very rarely let down when trusting other people to be reasonable and respectable.
Sitting down and hearing someone give a public service announcement about playing nicely would just make me question what sort of place I had arrived at where the default setting must be expected to be dialied in to 'baboon' and people needed to be told to behave. I wouldn't feel all warm and comforted.
The physical layout and setting of the place would create a bit of an impression on new potential players:
Is there space at the table? or are five players packed in tight around a bar table shoulder to shoulder?
Is it reasonably lit? or does the gaming space resemble a dungeon (or someones basement)?
Is the place clean?
Are people smoking and drinking?
Those things are pretty off-putting.
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I just assume everyone is a decent person and don't need my to calibrate them (and possibly patronise them) before they interact with other people - I assume whoever has been looking after them for the years prior has probably already done that :)
I'm very very rarely let down when trusting other people to be reasonable and respectable.
Sitting down and hearing someone give a public service announcement about playing nicely would just make me question what sort of place I had arrived at where the default setting must be expected to be dialied in to 'baboon' and people needed to be told to behave. I wouldn't feel all warm and comforted.
The physical layout and setting of the place would create a bit of an impression on new potential players:
Is there space at the table? or are five players packed in tight around a bar table shoulder to shoulder?
Is it reasonably lit? or does the gaming space resemble a dungeon (or someones basement)?
Is the place clean?
Are people smoking and drinking?
Those things are pretty off-putting.
I guess my opinions have been swayed by the thousands of people I've tought over the years. I regularly have to give lessons on social norms and accetable behaviour in public places.
Many of those are to people in their 17th or 18th year as well.
I've certainly been in situations where adults weren't any better, particularly in pubs, at parks, at public pools and in gymnasiums.
Sometimes you have to set the scene to let people know the rules are different to what they think of as normal at home behaviour. This can be particularly true at gaming conventions, where I've met folks who have no clue about what's considered polite social interaction. It doesn't have to be a public announcement, maybe a friendly reminder about the clubs charter every once in a while.
I guess our experiences are just different Shifty.
I like your point about the setting though. I think if regular game play can afford to rent or use a public hall then you could get more "off the street" attendence. I know when I used to go to organised play events (Pre pathfinder sorry to say), there was far more attendence at the University campus site than there was at the gamestore event they ran every other fortnight. Uni students who had picked up the flyer tags would pop in and play in the spacious and nicely appointed room.
I rarely saw anyone who wasn't already in contact with the game, pop into the game store. The place was well kept and tidy, but felt cramped and quite loud when the games were really rolling out. Part of the problem is how to ensure your local gameshop gets the support it needs as well though.
Cheers
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I wouldn't do that every session, just the first with a given group - it's just to establish the kind of atmosphere I want to create in a game. When you're in a more public space I think it's important to say those sorts of things, even if some people find it somewhat patronising. It's not really meant to be that way--I don't assume that anyone is going to do anything--but you'd be surprised at how much it helps some people feel welcome just by saying something minor like that. It's especially nice for the marginalised and minorities.
My friend, who works as a uni tutor, begins her first week tutorials with that kind of thing. Nothing too heavy, just making sure that everyone feels fine with speaking up no matter what their view points. She tutors Philosophy though, so that makes it doubly important to make people feel comfortable with speaking up.
If I managed to get myself to a bigger event I'd rather have that announcement than not (rather like the fire exit speech on planes). I find it reassuring to know that this place finds it perfectly normal to politely ask someone not to do something. I'm especially aware, because I know from personal experience that things that can be totally normal and decent and harmless to most, can also be nasty triggers to someone else.
Also, taking gaming to a place that the recruits you want are already familiar with and comfortable in might help. At the least, it makes one less hurdle to cross.
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Fascinating if rather overwhelmingly long thread.
I think it was Jane Austen who said she shied away from depicting all male conversations because as a woman she could never have had first hand experience of that.
By extension I can have no first hand understanding of what it is to be a woman, with or without a d20 being involved! However I do believe that people of all genders and sexualities are deserving of and respond well to being treated with simple respect. Problems can arise because the 'chummy' nature of an RPG group leads to people behaving with a degree of familiarity they would not normally.
In the gaming environment that I have influence over I have a zero tolerance of bullying of players regardless of the pretext, be it gender, race, religion or sexuality. One thing I have concluded though is that that most gamers are a lot less funny than we think they are and can cause offence without meaning to. In an open play environment (e.g. PFS) you are required to behave with a degree of decorum and err on the side of caution, in how both the player & the character behaves.
What I am wondering about is in a home game environment even by extension the apocryphal Friday night poker game or girls night out, are there circumstances that keeping a game gender segregated is OK? If there is such a situation if a "girl" wants to join a "boys club" or a "boy" wants to be "one of the girls" is there an expectation that the new comer must be amenable to the status quo or that status quo must adapt even if that means a big shift away from what originally made it appealing?
W
I like your point about the setting though. I think if regular game play can afford to rent or use a public hall then you could get more "off the street" attendence.
I also think that the environment shapes the behaviour quite heavily; sitting in a dingy environment sets a certain tone, whereas a nice and warm social space gives the cues of the type of behaviour that is to be expected.
I've also had to classroom manage 'adult learners', and yes occasionally they need a little calibration, but thats done as part of their orientation day - a little different as these people will be together for a significant period of time, far exceeding the couple of hours a game session might take. Four hours after you arrive you will leave, and quite possibly never see or game with this person again.
I like the idea of some sort of introductory statement. If I ever get around to running PFS I would certainly include something like it.
But, at the risk of being a Negative Ned, what is your recourse as a PFS judge if someone takes such a statement as an invitation to form their own personal metagame? Who quibbles at anyone else's expressed discomfort? Who thinks it's funny to express their discomfort at everything? Etc. etc. you can ignore trolls on the web (sometimes) but its harder at a table?
Is it possible for Paizo to strengthen up their 'Don't Bully' language and maybe require (or strongly suggest) every GM start each session with reinforcing the Official PFS stance? This might make it feel less like 'I just got some granola-eating, hippie,rad-fem, GM'.
Also, just cause I like carrots over sticks, maybe there could be some sort of 'Citizenship Boon' for players that GM's notice making a particular impact on fostering a fun and inclusive environment? I don't know if each individual GM would be allowed to award these, or if they nominate players to their VL and/or VC, but some sort of positive reinforcement, in a manner that's not too easily subverted into a joke, might be helpful.
@Wrath and Alice: Yeah I start my game with people who don't know me with something similair. It is a good idea to remind people that different things can act as triggers and such. (Though on a side note: I add rules debate are to be handled during breaks or after the game. You got no idea how much that rule cuts down on rules lawyering).
I also make sure that people know that if they do have a problem with somebody at the table to and don't want confront that person directly( people have a tendency to aviod confrontation) to bring it to me and I'll fix it. Having somebody in authority does help and the GM is the natural for that part. If you do this you have to take everything to you with respect and act on it even if you don't get what the problem is.
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This thread has travelled far with some very interesting angles presented. I've learned quite a lot.
On pondering the question of "how to make women feel welcome in gaming" tied to "increasing the number of women in the hobby" I thought of this great idea <<sheepishly>>, I'll ask my wife what she thinks.
Her thoughts were:
Eliminate the "cheesecake" (not her word) pictures. She also does not like the current art style in the books because the proportions are wrong (forearms and calves are the same size as upper arms/thighs, hands and feet are out of proportion, weapons are way too large like the barbarian's and fighter's swords and the gunslinger's shirt looks like its about to lose some buttons). She likes the older, more realistic looking pictures (from 2 ed.) if you take out the "bullshit, chainmail bikinis" and bare legs/sexually provocative stances. This last part was just her personal preferrences though.
She thinks the cooperative nature of the game should be a selling point to women. She finds it to be the most compelling part of RPG's. Putting that in the forefront of a campaign to attract women gamers might make it more successful from her perspective.
She thinks that brining in younger gamers is also a key. Advertize in magazines aimed at girls. Distribute free resources to 4H or other groups for kids. Also, support genre fiction writing (for example: contests)to bring in creative and talented high schoolers. She brought up girls being strong in verbal communication/problem solving. This might be an avenue to bring them into the hobby.
She considers that when my game runs at home, it is a "guy's night out" and does not want to interrupt. She would play in PFS or a "women's night out" setting. She does not like going in the comic book store where the closest PFS is played. She said at Christmas, when she was shopping for me, she felt like constantly telling the clerk, "hey, my eyes are up here." You get the picture.
In essence, she said: the current atmosphere is unwelcoming and she had some ideas that she thinks might help.
Ask women what they think will help or what they want to see? That should work. Who knew?
Andy (despite my many college degrees, sometimes the densest matter in the universe is under my hat)
I think, if I was to run a game in a more public setting (rather than with my usual group of friends) I would probably begin the game with something similar to what you suggested, Wrath. Maybe like:
"Hey everyone, I'm going to be your GM here today/tonight and I hope I can make it an awesome game. First off, I want to make it clear that if you have a problem with anything, whether that's in game or out, always feel free to speak up about it. I want everyone to feel comfortable being themselves and playing here together. Be courteous, be kind, and be excellent to each other, and I'm sure we'll have an amazing time today/tonight."
Rough, but you get the general gist. Depending on the environment I might also mention "safe space" kind of concepts, but if it's just a random PFS game at a game shop for example, I'd probably avoid that.
Something like this is certainly inclusive no matter what gender or race or age or sexuality or anything you are.
I would suggest removing the "...feel comfortable being themselves...". I might suggest that in a public setting dealing with people that you don't know personally, that you shouldn't feel comfortable being yourself. You should instead be aware of making others comfortable with you.
It's a nice aphorism, but it doesn't solve the problem that is real and being experienced female gamers.If everyone treated female gamers that way, it WOULD solve the problem. I think we should encourage that mindset as much as possible.
I don't think you're going to get anybody to disagree that gamers should be treated respectfully, regardless of gender. But I have two (I guess you can call them) issues with your position.
1. It's the end goal, not a method of achieving it. We're trying to figure out how to get to what you're talking about.
2. It's intermixing two related, but slightly different discussions: A. How do we get women more involved in RPGs, and B. How do we treat women once they are there.
The answer to B. is simple: exactly what you are espousing. You treat them courteously and respectfully, just like you would anybody else. As others have mentioned, you have open lines of communication, do not tolerate inappropriate behavior at the table, offer options for actions instead of courses of action, avoid hot buttons topics that likely incite, avoiding interruption and overtalking as much as possible (something which disproportionately negatively affects women), etc. So, once women are there, then yes, you are correct.
But a major component of this discussion is how to deal with the dearth of women in RPGs, not just with how to be civil to people when you're around them. That's where I think there's a disconnect some posters seem to have in questioning things like female-only tables and events (requesting male-only events in response completely misses that giant forest out there). Treating women respectfully (as should be expected) once they get to the table can help (but only minimally so) in getting women to come to the table in the first place. It definitely helps in keeping women involved in role playing, but you've got to actually get a new player involved before you can keep them around.
I'm a big fan of the suggestions Neil made a few pages back: female-only tables, female-friendly characters, a drive to make more inclusive stories, etc. But I also really liked your (? - I think it was you) suggestion of promoting high profile players or whatever of mixed gender tables at big events. Using that as an introduction for new players could be an excellent way of familiarizing new players (of both genders, but specifically women) with the game as well as modelling good behavior, GMing tips, etc.
Interesting thread, though. There are a few things I'm trying to be a bit more cognizant of in my personal life that were reinforced in this thread.
I mean hitting people who 'roll to rape' and such balant bad behavior with life time bans from these events might not fix everything but it would be a giant step in the right direction.
Most places already have a conduct rider in the application forms.
On the bright side, I have never seen a player even suggest such a thing at any table I have been are, nor heard from friends of them witnessing such an act. And they'd be the first to tell if they'd seen it.
Actually a lot of conduct rules/guidelines are fairly vague/nonexistent on such subjects. GenCon, the biggest gaming convention didn't really update their harassment policy until 2012, and the changes came so late that they couldn't actually be updated in to the printed materials that year. This year, 2013 there are plans to try and increase awareness with more signage and putting a guide on how to report it on the back of the badge.
Ok people i have a question for our friends in the U.S. and Australia.
There has been a lot of talk about comic book stores and comics and if i get it right PFS sessions are often held there as well as you buy the stuff there?
This seems to be a special environment attracting special sorts of persons sometimes which seem not used to socializing with women and therefore often show awkward behaviour.
Also some women seem to take offense with some comics due to their graphic nature and the way women are depicted in them.
There is a seemingly simple solution to that. Change the locations and have Pathfinder sold elsewhere. On the other hand it´s pretty difficult because there is the natural habitat of a large part of the consumers which also spend a lot of money on it and it´s a place where there is space and acceptance of having something like PFS. Public space is a highly fought about resource normally. Also Pathfinder is already sold elsewhere, especially on the internet.
SO let´s come back to privilege again. I´m starting to like that subject and experiencing with it. Anyone seeing flaws in my logic, please let me know. Also i want to express that i know and see womens problems and 100% support a point of equal rights, a sexism free world as well as a sexual harrassment free world. But i do have a lot to say to it. A lot i won´t comment about here.
Let´s start with Mr. Neil Spicer as an example. While i think he has clearly positive intentions, from the viewpoint of privilege, there is something to what he did upthread. Of course he seems to be friends and known to Paizomembers and threadstarting females, but also he is not 100% official and there already two official Paizo females moderating this thread. What happened there is what i call the "strong man attitude". He felt inclinced to step in, raise his voice and help the females. It might seem the friendly thing, but at that moment it is his privilege. (White, color doesn´t matter so much in this case) (perhaps tall, makes it worse because more physically threatening) male privilege depicting male authority and males being stronger than the supposedly weak females that need help. Which directly lowers their social status and people with lower status get less respect.
No offense meant Mr. Spicer.
I know behavior like that is branded into people´s minds and even many women do not get aware of it, but to say it with general Ackbars words: It´s a trap.
The traditional sexism manifests in situations like that and is deeply routed, even the partners many women search and especially the routine how they search them is subject to it. You want to change something then we all have to go through the pain of changing that.
Let´s start with Mr. Neil Spicer as an example. While i think he has clearly positive intentions, from the viewpoint of privilege, there is something to what he did upthread. Of course he seems to be friends and known to Paizomembers and threadstarting females, but also he is not 100% official and there already two official Paizo females moderating this thread. What happened there is what i call the "strong man attitude". He felt inclinced to step in, raise his voice and help the females. It might seem the friendly thing, but at that moment it is his privilege. (White, color doesn´t matter so much in this case) (perhaps tall, makes it worse because more physically threatening) male privilege depicting male authority and males being stronger than the supposedly weak females that need help. Which directly lowers their social status and people with lower status get less respect.
No offense meant Mr. Spicer.
I know behavior like that is branded into people´s minds and even many women do not get aware of it, but to say it with general Ackbars words: It´s a trap.The traditional sexism manifests in situations like that and is deeply routed, even the partners many women search and especially the routine how they search them is subject to it. You want to change something then we all have to go through the pain of changing that.
Something of a paradox, to be fair. How does one with a privilege play an active role in addressing the problems created by the existence of said privilege?
The risk you're running is assuming that whenever a person with privilege speaks up about something, it is because of said privilege. Is it possible one speaks up because one might think he is the better person to get people to stay in line? Sure. But that's not necessarily true. The reducto ad absurdum to this is, basically, any male commenting in this thread at all in favor of being more inclusive of female gamers is only doing so because we feel like we have the authority to speak and make a change on the matter based upon our gender.
*shrug* I didn't see anything problematic about someone trying to keep things flowing on topic when there have already been numerous requests to keep things flowing on topic.
*sigh*
People have been asked repeatedly by the Paizo ladies to take the discussion of privilege to another thread. Please don't ignore them, talk over them and derail the discussion again...
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*sigh*
People have been asked repeatedly by the Paizo ladies to take the discussion of privilege to another thread. Please don't ignore them, talk over them and derail the discussion again...
I have pretty much given up on anything useful or constructive coming out of this thread... as is the generalistic usual for male vs. female things ... the females comment about an ache and the males state they are dying.
good luck :)
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Yes, I noticed. Imagine if a real conversation went like this one has :(
- Please stop standing on my foot, it hurts
- Don't be silly, I don't weigh much. Now as X was saying about allowing freedom of movement...
- Excuse me, you're hurting my foot and I can't move...
- The dictionary definition of hurt is Y and I have a blister on my hand.
- A hand is not a foot and I'm not standing on your hand. YOU are standing on my foot.
- Hands and feet are both appendages. Why are you complaining when you introduced the concept of appendages?
- Because you're standing on my FOOT!
- Never mind feet, hands are important...
In my defense, I was trying to dissuade a nebulous conversation that has no end (and was again bringing up privilege unnecessarily), though perhaps not particularly artfully.
Assuming it was my foot on yours that you were complaining about, I have (hopefully) removed it. And I only have a blister on my finger because I wanted to type out every definition of "hurt", from every dictionary I could find, verbatim. Because these sorts of things are important, you know. ;)
I think that was directed at me fretgod.
Point taken, i have no intentions of derailment. I just wanted to voice something that was voiced several times by females i know, which i tried to describe as "stron man attitude".
I think that was directed at me fretgod.
Point taken, i have no intentions of derailment. I just wanted to voice something that was voiced several times by females i know, which i tried to describe as "stron man attitude".
Generally a "strong man"/"white knight" attitude is when a man comes in to help defend women and doesn't let them speak for themselves. It comes across as an "I"ll just take care of this" approach, rather than a partnership/ally approach to fixing the problem. I think Neil's post was the latter (partnership) rather than the former.
actually, my comment wasn't direct to any one person in particular... it was more of a general comment about the thread as as whole.
Throughout the thread, the women that have been posting have been trying to voice valid concerns, and make other valid comments. While there have been a few men that have also been trying to have a valid conversation. The good parts of the conversation have been drowned out by those that want to argue or make points that are not valid and have been asked left outside the thread.
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I have skimmed through some pages of this thread (but no where near all of it). So if this has already been addressed, my appologies.
I am the stereoypical dork engineer. Not as bad as Sheldon Cooper, but in that general direction. I am NOT an empathic person. It is not that I don't try, but I often just don't catch things. My sense motive modifier is about a -8. I have gotten a little better over the decades, but it is just not one of my strenghts. It is not sexism, I don't even always catch it when people are intentionally try to hurt my feelings.
My friends and I joke and make fun of each other. That's pretty normal. But we never intentionally hurt anyone's feelings.
I have kicked people out of our group and/or stopped being friends with people who behave in a hurtful manner. I do not put up with harassement, hurtful insults, whatever... But I won't necessarily notice if no one says anything.
I have had friends or players (men and women) bring something up weeks or months later they are still upset and ask, "Why didn't you stop X when he was obviously Z?" The answer is simply that I didn't catch that the behavior was bothering that person. It was not obvious to me. They had apparently been hinting at me that someone else was a problem for quite a while. But I don't catch hints either.
It has taken one of my friends (a guy) almost 3 years to understand that I often don't catch things like that myself and hints are mostly a waste of time with me. Now he will finally just say, "Please tell T to stop telling us how to run our characters." No problem. The next time it came up, he said something to let me know it was the situation he was talking about, and "Hey T, let me know what your PC is doing. They will role play their characters and let me know what they are doing."
Over the years, I have had people tell me, You don't notice because you don't care!", "You just ignore it because it isn't about you!", or even "You didn't say anything becase you'd be just the same if you thought you could get away with it!"
None of those are true. I don't treat male/female, young/old, athiest/christian - family, friends, coworkers, gamers, or strangers differently unless specifically requested. When I know of a problem, I do what I can to resolve the situation. Even if it means giving up a long term friendship (that has happened twice). I don't think I am the only one like this.
{Though my wife says I am significantly more dense to social issues than anyone else she knows.}
I guess what I'm trying to say is Please Clearly Communicate! I will gladly defend anyone from being wronged, but I have to know about it.
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It's a nice aphorism, but it doesn't solve the problem that is real and being experienced female gamers.If everyone treated female gamers that way, it WOULD solve the problem. I think we should encourage that mindset as much as possible.I don't think you're going to get anybody to disagree that gamers should be treated respectfully, regardless of gender. But I have two (I guess you can call them) issues with your position.
1. It's the end goal, not a method of achieving it. We're trying to figure out how to get to what you're talking about.
2. It's intermixing two related, but slightly different discussions: A. How do we get women more involved in RPGs, and B. How do we treat women once they are there.
The answer to B. is simple: exactly what you are espousing. You treat them courteously and respectfully, just like you would anybody else. As others have mentioned, you have open lines of communication, do not tolerate inappropriate behavior at the table, offer options for actions instead of courses of action, avoid hot buttons topics that likely incite, avoiding interruption and overtalking as much as possible (something which disproportionately negatively affects women), etc. So, once women are there, then yes, you are correct.
But a major component of this discussion is how to deal with the dearth of women in RPGs, not just with how to be civil to people when you're around them. That's where I think there's a disconnect some posters seem to have in questioning things like female-only tables and events (requesting male-only events in response completely misses that giant forest out there). Treating women respectfully (as should be expected) once they get to the table can help (but only minimally so) in getting women to come to the table in the first place. It definitely helps in keeping women involved in role playing, but you've got to actually get a new player involved before you can keep them around.
I'm a big fan of the suggestions Neil made a few pages back: female-only tables, female-friendly characters, a drive to make more inclusive stories, etc. But I also really liked your (? - I think it was you) suggestion of promoting high profile players or whatever of mixed gender tables at big events. Using that as an introduction for new players could be an excellent way of familiarizing new players (of both genders, but specifically women) with the game as well as modelling good behavior, GMing tips, etc.
Interesting thread, though. There are a few things I'm trying to be a bit more cognizant of in my personal life that were reinforced in this thread.
Treating people as equals is, IMO, a 1-step process... you just do it. I don't believe you should actively treat people UNequally as a method to maybe, eventually, treat people equally, which is why I'm strongly against Affirmative Action, quotas, etc. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the ends don't always justifies the means. Some of the suggestions do seem to amount to Affirmative Action-style preferences for female gamers.
Is it possible to attract female gamers without unequal treatment? Yes, I strongly believe that it is, and that it is the better way to go about it. Show women playing the game in "Celebrity Pathfinder" videos on Youtube. A wider array of adventures that appeals to a broader audience. Opposing loutish behavior as well as condescending behavior when you see it. Try to remove the negative stigma of roleplaying games (which is slowly happening). Let women know that they are welcome with ads and marketing. Lots of other stuff as well, I'm not going to repeat it all.
None of those things require unequal, preferential, or exclusionary treatment of either the women or anyone else.
Finally, there is 1 other thing to consider... often, men and women just like different things. There is the possibility that in general, women are not as interested in gaming as men are, just like men generally don't find as much enjoyment in going clothes and shoe shopping together. We are not all the same. It needs to be as open and welcoming as possible and then leave it up to people to choose what they enjoy. The end goal, therefore, is a welcoming and equal environment for all who play, not a quota of 50% women. When that is the goal, it becomes easy to see why unequal treatment is a step back, not progress toward the goal.
Hayato
RPGs are very rare in Australia.... The attitude is if you are not outside doing some kind of sport you have a problem.
Also all of the negative nerd sterotyping is associated with the game is still held by the mainstream media.
Then there is the 60 minutes legacy..... Hey isn't that the game where you go mad kill your family and start a cult in the sewers.
I can only speak about the City (Sydney) and the inner western suburbs..... Across the Bridge, past Strathfield or further south than St Peters and the Eastern suburbs are beyond my knowledge.
There are 3 places I know of that sell Pathfinder they are board game shops 2 of them run society.
The shop in Burwood is a little old looking but it's staff are very approachable, I have played boardgames and there while PFS has run.
I the shops in the city are nicer looking.... One is constantly packed to the rafters with magic players.... The other one not have any games at all.
Comic book shops do not sell RPG unless the owner is a fan, so no and most people I see running comic book shops don't fit the Simpsons sterotype.
Playing in pubs is problematic.... It depends on if the pub has a family friendly space...a lot do, if that space is comfortable - alot are not, and if you are annoying other patrons.
Pub culture in Sydney is probably closer to than that of Britain and Germany, except there are places within a pub that under 18s can not go (the Bar)... You can not smoke inside a pub and a lot of pubs have a restaurant attached.
We will often on a rainy Sunday we meet-up with friends and their families for a Pub lunch and let the kids play....
If its a grand old pub with lots of space and a good atmosphere, that could be conducive to playing.... But you have to rely on the other players not to over consume and that is where brining juniors along for a game at the pub is a problem.
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Lengthy Post Ahead (apologies in advance) ...
Treating people as equals is, IMO, a 1-step process... you just do it. I don't believe you should actively treat people UNequally as a method to maybe, eventually, treat people equally, which is why I'm strongly against Affirmative Action, quotas, etc. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the ends don't always justifies the means. Some of the suggestions do seem to amount to Affirmative Action-style preferences for female gamers.
Well at least now we can maybe have a constructive discussion on point. First, let's not treat all affirmative action as synonymous with quotas - they are not one and the same. I don't want to derail the thread with a lengthy discussion of affirmative action, but I do think there's an apt analogy in this, so I'll try to be brief.
Simply put, after the Civil Rights Acts were passed in the US, you could not expect that, within a few years, races (and genders) would be equally represented across the spectrum of professions. If we're judging applicants for law school purely on the merits (at that point in time), a disproportionate number of admittees was still going to be from middle to upper class white America. That is inarguable. Long story short, only by granting extra access during the infancy of the Civil Rights movement could we get to the point where everybody can compete on an equal footing due to long-standing cultural biases that stack the deck against the disenfranchised on the basis of (particularly) economic power. Now, we can have a discussion about the merits of continuing affirmative action today, but I think you have a very difficult leg to stand on that the idea of it was meritless from inception.
Relating it specifically to this discussion (and why I think things like female-only tables/events are a worthy idea to entertain), men and women are socialized differently, from a very early age. You've seen and heard of real-life examples of that in this very thread. Men are taught to be forceful, aggressive, domineering if necessary, upfront and unapologetic. Women are taught the opposite. It is a documented fact that in workplaces, social settings, and elsewhere, women are routinely interrupted more frequently, talked over more often, and have their ideas set aside more readily than their male counterparts. The important part to realize about this is it's not a conscious attack committed (for the most part, though not entirely) by men. So, your stance that we simply need to treat everybody the same ignores the fact that often times this disparate treatment is quite literally not something that people are aware that they are doing. Moreover, if you have a newcomer, regardless of gender, to a rules-heavy hobby like this, they're necessarily going to be overwhelmed to begin with. They don't have the knowledge base to be able to justify a decision, make an argument, or cut short an unwittingly overbearing tablemate in the first place. Compound that with a person who's been socialized for years to defer to a person who's been socialized to be aggressive and it's a problem.
It is that sort of behavior that can make male-dominated arenas like RPG intimidating and off-putting to many female would-be participants. It's the same reason places like Curves exist - gyms where women can go and workout in a comfortable environment without feeling like they're on display, surrounded by people who view them as a potential source of entertainment, or similar distractions.
And mind you, I don't think anybody in here is arguing that women-only tables/events are going to be the new norm, like we're all of a sudden going to be segregating everything. It's merely an option available for female gamers (and particularly for those getting newly acquainted with the experience). If being able to play at a few female-only tables at a local store or a convention is what gets women interested in the hobby and familiar enough with the rules that they feel like they can hold their own in a discussion with somebody who is unwittingly talking over them or giving them unwanted character or action advice, that person is more likely to stick it out for the long haul.
Similarly, what is wrong with having events which allow bonding between female gamers (much like somebody else stated could and does occur with male gamers)? Particularly at this juncture where women are at an extreme minority, I fail to see what harm comes on any level (even theoretical) from giving new gamers the opportunity to find mentors and compatriots of a like mind. After all, you cannot snap your fingers and magically expect that people are going to start treating people all the same, like you request. It's going to be a process, with growing pains. What to do while we're getting to that point, that is the problem that needs to be addressed.
Is it possible to attract female gamers without unequal treatment? Yes, I strongly believe that it is, and that it is the better way to go about it. Show women playing the game in "Celebrity Pathfinder" videos on Youtube. A wider array of adventures that appeals to a broader audience. Opposing loutish behavior as well as condescending behavior when you see it. Try to remove the negative stigma of roleplaying games (which is slowly happening). Let women know that they are welcome with ads and marketing. Lots of other stuff as well, I'm not going to repeat it all.
I disagree with none of this.
Finally, there is 1 other thing to consider... often, men and women just like different things. There is the possibility that in general, women are not as interested in gaming as men are, just like men generally don't find as much enjoyment in going clothes and shoe shopping together. We are not all the same. It needs to be as open and welcoming as possible and then leave it up to people to choose what they enjoy. The end goal, therefore, is a welcoming and equal environment for all who play, not a quota of 50% women. When that is the goal, it becomes easy to see why unequal treatment is a step back, not progress toward the goal.
This is, frankly, irrelevant. It matters not that men and women might not eventually participate in this hobby at precisely equal ratios. What matters is that there are a great deal of women who likely are curious and potentially willing participants, but are scared off because of the current culture surrounding gaming, amongst other things.
You cannot snap your fingers and say, "Treat everybody equally!" and have it magically be so. The end result is precisely what you say it it is. However, we shall not get there by simply saying that's how it should be.
No offense meant Mr. Spicer...
None taken, Ken. I understand what you're saying. But I also think Jessica has the right of it. There's a distinction between trying to be a helpful partner to such a discussion as opposed to totally taking it over and trying to solve the problem in the belief that women can't solve it themselves. They certainly can. But only inasmuch as some of the posters here stop getting in their way by discounting their concerns, laying out entirely different problems, or running everyone around in circles on issues that aren't really germane to the stated goal...i.e., making sure the hobby is more welcoming and supportive of female gamers so more of them will get (and stay) involved.
Just for the record, my main goal in posting here (and the manner in which I chose to post here) is to try and structure some of the discussion to safeguard against the problems outlined above. I've been actively encouraging lady gamers (whom I know through Facebook or the Paizo fan community) to visit here and add their voices. To me, they hold the real key to this discussion. As a guy, I'm not privy to all the reasons they got involved in the hobby, the challenges they faced, the things they found offensive, the ways they overcame them, or the ideas they might have for addressing the goal of encouraging more ladies to take up the hobby, too. Ultimately, I really want to hear what they have to say. And I want those who keep blocking that conversation (unintentionally or otherwise) to step back so it can carry on and I can observe and learn from it. Why? Because I'm a dad of three girls and I'd like to be better prepared for when they get more heavily into gaming. Also, I'd like to encourage more female designers to add their own creativity to the industry, because I think we'd all really benefit from that.
You cannot snap your fingers and say, "Treat everybody equally!" and have it magically be so. The end result is precisely what you say it is. However, we shall not get there by simply saying that's how it should be.
Very well said.
Well Neil Spicer i know you have no negative intentions, i was just abusing you for an example :)
And Jessica made a nice addendum, which is indeed important.
But the line between being a helpful partner and being something else is often blurry and thin i think. I´m sure many people think they do something helpful, but either miscarry their wording (like me quite often, to the point that noone understands me hehehe) or misjudge the situation. So i want to point out that especially in real life encounters one can often supress a lot of things by being too loud and dominant even with the best intentions. Sensitizing for power structures on small scales is pretty important in my eyes and telling this is my try to add something constructive.
Else i have the same opinion. I also started this conversation on the german board with some slightly different outcomes so far. It´s really interesting.
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fretgod99 basically said what I've been trying to say this entire thread.
Treating women as equals is what we all want. You can't just have that happen instantly. There's too much baggage in society (both at large and in the subculture in question) for it to work like that. Alas; if only wizards were real.
fretgod99 basically said what I've been trying to say this entire thread.
Treating women as equals is what we all want. You can't just have that happen instantly. There's too much baggage in society (both at large and in the subculture in question) for it to work like that. Alas; if only wizards were real.
One person comes along and in one paragraph says something I have been trying unsuccessfully say in pages on pages of posting. :-)
Well done fretgod99