Save vs. Sexism: Interview with Jessica Price

[TanithT]

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

I have no worries that women will reach parity in the hoby especially with such passionate and eloquent members of the community as DQ, TT, and Alice M pushing things along. They just shouldn't have to do it by themselves.

Except, quite honestly, I am not. I stick my nose into the fandom very occasionally when someone brings a thread to my attention. I run out of patience and give-a-damn very quickly. I get tired of battering my head against the stone wall of men who jump in to a conversation about how to get more women into gaming and swear they will personally make it impossible for there to be any such thing as a woman's gaming night by showing up there to protest. Men who are sure they know better than we do what we need to feel more comfortable, and men who like the status quo just fine and don't want any more gurrrllls at their tables. Men who get angry and accuse me of assorted bad things when I discuss the historical etymology of a word and why it may be problematic to use a historically insulting term while addressing the group that word was being used to trivialize and dismiss.

I very largely gave up and went away from this hobby a long time ago. It just wasn't worth the hassle of trying again and again to find a gaming group that didn't have these issues, or RPG material that didn't keep sending me the creepy message that it was for the heterosexual male gaze and women were the objects. Gaming is awesome, when it works. The problem is that it doesn't work for me a lot more often than it does.

Paizo gives me a little hope. But honestly not much, because no matter how good and progressive one company is, it can not change the entire cultural matrix. Paizo is trying very hard and I give them major kudos for it. I don't think I'll be buying much from any other companies, now that I know how hard they are working on being inclusive and respectful of things like same sex relationships.

But even on the Paizo boards, it is very clear that the cultural microcosm of gamers is still very much a boy's club and that a lot of the boys are pretty highly invested in defending the status quo.

Sure, I could fight that. But I do have a life, and when I run out of energy here, I'm going to go live it. I am not on the front lines of this thing, and I have only limited time or energy to keep trying.

[The 8th Dwarf]

c873788 wrote:

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

I'm in Sydney as well AM. I have a home group that's me and the lads. I do go to a PFS once in a blue moon.

I remember my first PFS session, I had met Al Rigg at the pub once and he was the only person I knew in the hall.

When you go to PFS sessions in Sydney, do you see any women show up?

The PFS sessions I attend now and then in Brisbane only ever seem to have males at the FLGS. I only occasionally see women in the other room of the gaming store playing MTG. The random guys that show up always seem to be well behaved with no jerkish behaviour so I'm not sure what keeps the ladies away. It's a shame really, as the few times over the years I have ever gotten to roleplay with women, the standard of roleplaying they bring to the table is very high making it a more enjoyable experience for all.

I wasn't counting but I think there were 2 or 3 At Eyecon last time I went and One at Burwood.

Our Partners used to game with us at home and it was a 50/50 split for a while... Having children and work and other interests left us down to 4 players all male, there are about 5.5 of us now.

[lock wood]

to TanithT:

there game should have been closed down. i would think that a pg 13 or lower type game is what fly at a event like that, is well beyond pg 13.
i hope you may someone aware of the type of game they were running. while i well not judge people on the types of game they run in there home a open event like that were you may have kids as young as 8 or even younger has no place for that kind of game. even if the kids are not at the table kids have ears

to Alice Margatroid:

i to agree that bad a** looking girls are hot you don't need them in a chain mail Bekki to look good that being said if your going to give cheesecake art to the men we should give cheesecake art to the women it only right everyone should be allowed a little. to much is bad tho

[c873788]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)

When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!

Hi Alice. Have you considered Pathfinder gaming online using Hero Lab, D20Pro and Skype with some of your gaming friends to overcome the tyranny of distance?

I am GMing some of my friends through Kingmaker online at the moment on a weekly basis and they are having a ball. If I had more time, I would also GM online for my sister and her girlfriend and take them through RotRL as she has expressed an interest in roleplaying in the past.

[The 8th Dwarf]

TanithT wrote:

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

I have no worries that women will reach parity in the hoby especially with such passionate and eloquent members of the community as DQ, TT, and Alice M pushing things along. They just shouldn't have to do it by themselves.

Except, quite honestly, I am not. I stick my nose into the fandom very occasionally when someone brings a thread to my attention. I run out of patience and give-a-damn very quickly. I get tired of battering my head against the stone wall of men who jump in to a conversation about how to get more women into gaming and swear they will personally make it impossible for there to be any such thing as a woman's gaming night by showing up there to protest. Men who are sure they know better than we do what we need to feel more comfortable, and men who like the status quo just fine and don't want any more gurrrllls at their tables. Men who get angry and accuse me of assorted bad things when I discuss the historical etymology of a word and why it may be problematic to use a historically insulting term while addressing the group that word was being used to trivialize and dismiss.

I very largely gave up and went away from this hobby a long time ago. It just wasn't worth the hassle of trying again and again to find a gaming group that didn't have these issues, or RPG material that didn't keep sending me the creepy message that it was for the heterosexual male gaze and women were the objects. Gaming is awesome, when it works. The problem is that it doesn't work for me a lot more often than it does.

Paizo gives me a little hope. But honestly not much, because no matter how good and progressive one company is, it can not change the entire cultural matrix. Paizo is trying very hard and I give them major kudos for it. I don't think I'll be buying much from any other companies, now that I know how hard they are working on being inclusive and respectful of things like same sex relationships.

But even on the Paizo boards, it is very clear that the...

:-( you have my sympathy and I can see how the above can run you down. There are people in your corner, happy to support you

[Alice Margatroid]

I actually do play on Roll20, in fact I played in a Shattered Star game earlier today! :) In the past I've run games on Roll20, Maptool, IRC, Skype, etc as well. Not PFS, although if there was a game at a time that worked for me I'd consider joining up with that.

For all the awkward wording of Samurai's suggestion that women play via PbP and such, online gaming is most definitely less stressful, especially when you might be playing with people you don't know. I'm much more confident joining up with a PF group on Roll20 than I am with going to someone who I may have only met once's basement with 5 of his friends that I've never met before. It's not even because of the gender thing entirely... being in a familiar environment helps everyone to begin with.

[TanithT]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

The woman from the cover of Serpent's Skull 1 (although her pose is a little dumb - what is she doing exactly..?)

Only a little dumb? *facepalms*

This is clearly a sexualized pose. She is sticking it out for all it's worth, looking sexy and seductive. And while there is nothing wrong with that in a context that makes sense for her to be acting that way, it seriously chaps my drawers that you will almost never see a man drawn in the same sexualized come-hither way.

And, WHY is she striking the sexxay pose? Do we get an in-character reason for this that actually makes sense, or is it just the gratuitous logic that women are always supposed to look and act like this by default?

Because it is pretty detrimental to being able to take a character seriously if they randomly go around sticking their butt and boobs out, and there isn't any rational justification for why they would be doing this.

[Alice Margatroid]

I agree Tanith, it was only when I was looking for the stuff I vaguely remembered that I noticed how silly that one's pose was. But I wasn't interested in spending that much time searching for pictures so I just thought I'd point it out. It's not nearly as egregious as it could be, thankfully, but it IS still dumb to make poses like that. And at least she otherwise looks cool.

[lock wood]

the real reason you have that on the cover is to sell the book to man that are easy tricked in to buying it

as a man i am offend outraged at attempt to get me to buy a product just be case some hot girl is eating it or just there that being said most men fall for it even my brother who feels the bath room with axe body spry to the point of everyone choking on it he use most like because of the adds on tv

that being said they may still get me some time i am only human

[TanithT]

lock wood wrote:

to TanithT:

there game should have been closed down. i would think that a pg 13 or lower type game is what fly at a event like that, is well beyond pg 13.
i hope you may someone aware of the type of game they were running. while i well not judge people on the types of game they run in there home a open event like that were you may have kids as young as 8 or even younger has no place for that kind of game. even if the kids are not at the table kids have ears

I did. The person who took the report didn't seem to care much and said he had no authority to do anything immediately, and they were still gaming when I took my now completely useless game slot to go get dinner somewhere better than the con hotel restaurant. They were not really using the most explicit language, just being sniggering jerks, a la Beavis and Butthead. I don't think there were any kids within earshot, but there were a lot of tables and I wasn't checking ID's.

It's possible they did something while I was out, but I don't know, and it killed Saturday night at the con for me. I didn't see any of them again during the Sunday morning slot before I went home, but I wasn't exactly looking. :/

That incident and a few too many similar ones pretty much ruined gaming at cons for me. It's not something I can spend a ton of time and money on, knowing there is a good chance that any given game slot I sign up for will turn into something that is no fun at all for me.

[Steve Geddes]

I don't know anything about PFS, but hopefully there is facility for reporting such occurrences, real consequences for those who are so disrespectful and a meaningful "this is the outcome of your complaint" process once its been investigated. If not, putting something like that in place would be a good move, I suspect (even if it is utilised very infrequently).

[c873788]

TanithT wrote:

This is clearly a sexualized pose. She is sticking it out for all it's worth, looking sexy and seductive. And while there is nothing wrong with that in a context that makes sense for her to be acting that way, it seriously chaps my drawers that you will almost never see a man drawn in the same sexualized come-hither way.

And, WHY is she striking the sexxay pose? Do we get an in-character reason for this that actually makes sense, or is it just the gratuitous logic that women are always supposed to look and act like this by default?

Because it is pretty detrimental to being able to take a character seriously if they randomly go around sticking their butt and boobs out, and there isn't any rational justification for why they would be doing this.

I have no problem with a feminine figure striking a sexy pose and I have no problem if there was a lot more sexualization of males figures in gaming pictures. What's good for the goose is good for the gander or vice versa.

What I do have a problem with is the sexual double standard. Why is it that a woman who looks sexy is a "slut" but a guy is a "stud". I hate the word "slut" because of the negative connotations associated with it and how it is predisposed towards applying to women. Why can't a man be a "slut"?

The problem to fix here is not necessarily of female figures in a sexy pose in gaming material but the broader context of letting women in general in society celebrate their sexuality without being called a "slut". I think a lot of people like labelling promiscuous women or women who like to express their sexuality as "sluts" because they are insecure and are afraid of being compared if the woman sleeps around and she knows that they are a "dud" in the sack. Most religions are to blame as well for their punitive and patriarchal attitudes that should have been consigned to the scrap heap centuries ago.

[TanithT]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I agree Tanith, it was only when I was looking for the stuff I vaguely remembered that I noticed how silly that one's pose was. But I wasn't interested in spending that much time searching for pictures so I just thought I'd point it out. It's not nearly as egregious as it could be, thankfully, but it IS still dumb to make poses like that. And at least she otherwise looks cool.

This is exactly why I say Paizo is one of the least worst offenders. They try pretty hard to be inclusive, but they also do stuff like this.

It could be worse. She is fully dressed. But a male pirate would never, ever be depicted on the cover of a book with a sexy, come-hither look, sticking his hips out and posing in a clearly seductive way. A woman by default is portrayed that way, simply because she is female.

Not cool, Paizo. Not cool. It could have been a lot worse, but this really is pretty bad, and it does not send a positive message to female gamers about how they should expect women to be portrayed in the game.

[Irontruth]

TanithT wrote:

I don't think I'll be buying much from any other companies, now that I know how hard they are working on being inclusive and respectful of things like same sex relationships.

I would recommend checking out some small/independent publishers.

Elizabeht Sampat is very cool. She writes very cool and interesting games. Her blog posts are excellent, though it seems like she's dropped off on that.

[TanithT]

c873788 wrote:

I have no problem with a feminine figure striking a sexy pose and I have no problem if there was a lot more sexualization of males figures in gaming pictures. What's good for the goose is good for the gander or vice versa.

That would be fine. An image of a Captain Jack Sparrow type, for instance, being seductive and pretty and striking a pose that clearly showed his body as an object of gaze, would be nice. Translate the same pose over from that image above, and it works.

Except we won't see that on a book cover. There is way too much institutionalized male homophobia for something like this not to be the marketing knell of doom.

I do think that equality in these depictions is a good thing, and that neither one should belong in a situation where it is *stupid* for them to be acting that way. We are never going to get this, IMO, specifically because of how violently heterosexual men tend to react to images that actually sexualize men. And I mean actually sexualize, complete with the sexy poses and come-hither smouldering looks, not a picture of Conan in a loincloth.

Quote:

What I do have a problem with is the sexual double standard. Why is it that a woman who looks sexy is a "slut" but a guy is a "stud". I hate the word "slut" because of the negative connotations associated with it and how it is predisposed towards applying to women. Why can't a man be a "slut"?

Preach it, bro.

Quote:

The problem to fix here is not necessarily of female figures in a sexy pose in gaming material but the broader context of letting women in general in society celebrate their sexuality without being called a "slut". I think a lot of people like labelling promiscuous women or women who like to express their sexuality as "sluts" because they are insecure and are afraid of being compared if the woman sleeps around and she knows that they are a "dud" in the sack. Most religions are to blame as well for their punitive and patriarchal attitudes that should have been consigned to the scrap heap centuries ago.

This is a very complex can of worms. In an ideal world, everyone could be as sexy as they wanted to be without anyone being a jerk about it. Sadly we don't live in an ideal world.

[Laithoron]

FWIW, I always thought the pirate from the cover of Serpent's Skull #1 looked like a pissed-off badass who was just daring someone to start some s*** so she could gut them where they stood. With all of her tattoos and [what I thought to be a] glare, 'come-hither' didn't even cross my mind.

Of course I've also been informed that I'm completely oblivious to when women are hitting on me so maybe it's just me. :-\

EDIT: BTW, I found the articles that folks linked to earlier in the thread very eye-opening and informative — the analogy of the dog and the gecko particularly so.

[TanithT]

Irontruth wrote:

TanithT wrote:

I don't think I'll be buying much from any other companies, now that I know how hard they are working on being inclusive and respectful of things like same sex relationships.

I would recommend checking out some small/independent publishers.

Elizabeht Sampat is very cool. She writes very cool and interesting games. Her blog posts are excellent, though it seems like she's dropped off on that.

I meant, probably not inclined to buy much from companies other than Paizo. They win a lot of kudos for depicting same sex relationships as a normal slice of life, and at least trying to ease off on the old, bad tropes of always portraying women in sexualized, mostly ornamental, or submissive/helpless positions.

Though the more I see book covers like this one the less I am inclined to buy. :/

[lock wood]

the pose is mend to be sexy but i do see your point about the faces if that glare could kill you be a -1 at lest

(o what that they can in this game)

[c873788]

TanithT wrote:

I do think that equality in these depictions is a good thing, and that neither one should belong in a situation where it is *stupid* for them to be acting that way. We are never going to get this, IMO, specifically because of how violently heterosexual men tend to react to images that actually sexualize men. And I mean actually sexualize, complete with the sexy poses and come-hither smouldering looks, not a picture of Conan in a loincloth.

Unfortunately, you are spot on about how violently some heterosexual men would react to images that sexualize men. Maybe the best thing would be to bring this dirty laundry out of the closet and wave it in people's faces. It would be great if Paizo made their next iconic a clearly attractive man in suggestive and possibly homo-erotic poses. This is not to pander to my own desires as I'm straight. Though my wife and I did change our marriage vows to include a protest speech about how we disagree with current laws that forbid a gay couple to marry.

[Adam Daigle]

TanithT wrote:

...Except we won't see that on a book cover. There is way too much institutionalized male homophobia for something like this not to be the marketing knell of doom....

Does this work? Seriously, we haven't been able to get Seltyiel to button his shirt in years. Showoff. :)

[TanithT]

Adam Daigle wrote:

TanithT wrote:

...Except we won't see that on a book cover. There is way too much institutionalized male homophobia for something like this not to be the marketing knell of doom....

Does this work? Seriously, we haven't been able to get Seltyiel to button his shirt in years. Showoff. :)

Yes. Yes, it does. I'll just be in my bunk for awhile. ;)

If the depictions of men in this kind of sexy posing was flat out equal to the depictions of women in the same kinds of poses, that would be fair and reasonable. I do think it's important for neither of them to be shown to be *stupid*, eg, doing it in a situation where there is no in-character reason for them to do it, or in a situation where it would be seriously detrimental to their health or effectiveness as adventurers.

[lock wood]

cheesecake for all

[c873788]

Adam Daigle wrote:

Side order of monk?[/url]

LMAO. I have such a terrible "gay-dar". I never thought about either of those iconics in that way before. Well done Paizo. Keep that closet door open.

[Adam Daigle]

c873788 wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

Side order of monk?[/url]

LMAO. I have such a terrible "gay-dar". I never thought about either of those iconics in that way before. Well done Paizo. Keep that closet door open.

Sorry. I deleted my post because I realized that I wasn't adding to the true mission of this thread.

[Steve Geddes]

Adam Daigle wrote:

I deleted my post because I realized that I wasn't adding to the true mission of this thread.

You don't feel like deleting a few more, I suppose?

[Michael Brock]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)

When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!

Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?

We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.

[lock wood]

i know were i would start deleting if it were me

[c873788]

Michael Brock wrote:

Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?

We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.

Pity there appear to be no female pathfinder players in Brisbane. They are an extint species in our area.

I read somewhere that you are coming to Australia. I hope you have a good time while you are "down under" and that you are made to feel welcome. :)

[Wrath]

Michael Brock wrote:

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)

When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!

Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?

We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.

Michael, off topic

Spoiler:

is there any PFS happening in Brisbane that you know of. I havea group of students at My school who want to get into the game, and one of their fathers. Unfortunately I have no time to DM for them amongst everything else I do. Plus there's a legal minefield involved with me ( their teacher) interacting with them outside school environments. We are Northside of Brisbane. Strathpine area. PM me if you can help mate. I'm trying to catch them while the interest is still high. Cheers

[Alice Margatroid]

I didn't, Michael! That's good to know! I haven't played PFS since then (lack of opportunity more than anything) but I hope to get in some games at PAX Aus. Definitely hoping the demographics have changed in the last few years!

[Michael Brock]

Steve Geddes wrote:

I don't know anything about PFS, but hopefully there is facility for reporting such occurrences, real consequences for those who are so disrespectful and a meaningful "this is the outcome of your complaint" process once its been investigated. If not, putting something like that in place would be a good move, I suspect (even if it is utilised very infrequently).

There is. You email me and I speak to the convention coordinator, as well as the local VC or VL. As a former Special Victims Unit and Crimes Against Children detective for 8 years, I don't put up with this crap. If I find out a convention condones this behavior, even if by inaction, I will not support this convention in anyway, including no product support, PFS boon support, and free PDfs granted to GMs. My VCs and VLs also will not support that convention in the future with helping coordinate and organize until corrective actions have been taken by the con itself.

Thus far, no one has sent me any emails reporting anything.

[Wrath]

c873788 wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?

We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.

Pity there appear to be no female pathfinder players in Brisbane. They are an extint species in our area.

I read somewhere that you are coming to Australia. I hope you have a good time while you are "down under" and that you are made to feel welcome. :)

I'm working to rectify that. I have a school club with a 4 ed game going, but I also have a number interested in pathfinder. I'm trying to see what I can wrangle up for them, and PFS may be the key.

Cheers

[c873788]

Wrath wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Hi Wrath. Regarding your question:

off topic:

There is a gaming store (I can't remember the name of the store sorry) at Nundah that does PFS games on weekends. There's a store at Spring Hill I think it's called Good Games that does PFS play every second Wednesday. Clearly, the Nundah store would be closer to you.

[Michael Brock]

c873788 wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?

We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.

Pity there appear to be no female pathfinder players in Brisbane. They are an extint species in our area.

I read somewhere that you are coming to Australia. I hope you have a good time while you are "down under" and that you are made to feel welcome. :)

I will be in Australia from March 26 through April 3 starting in Melborne and finishing up at Lissalapalooza in Sydney. Hope you and other gamers from Brisbane are able to make it down so I can meet and game with all of you.

[Wrath]

c873788 wrote:

Wrath wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Hi Wrath. Regarding your question:

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks mate, I'll give Fast Break at Nundah a call then. We have a local Game store, but they're notoriously disorganised. Lovely people, but disorganised.

I'd organise PFS here myself, except between my family, my job and my current gaming group, I have no real time to commit to such things unfortunately.

Cheers

[Michael Brock]

Wrath wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)

When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!

Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?

We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.

Michael, off topic

** spoiler omitted **

Reach out to our awesome Brisbane VC, Daniel Flood. I am sure he would be thrilled to help all of you out. Here is the LINK. Scroll to the international area of the page and find the Australia listed at the top of that section.

[prosfilaes]

Adam Daigle wrote:

TanithT wrote:

...Except we won't see that on a book cover. There is way too much institutionalized male homophobia for something like this not to be the marketing knell of doom....

Does this work? Seriously, we haven't been able to get Seltyiel to button his shirt in years. Showoff. :)

I think that's an example of why tuning down sexualized characters instead of balancing it is probably a better idea. I'm sure I've seen that picture before, but having my attention called to it, it's something that too much of could quickly turn me off on the game.

[Wrath]

Michael Brock wrote:

Wrath wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)

When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!

Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?

We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.

Michael, off topic

** spoiler omitted **

Reach out to our awesome Brisbane VC, Daniel Flood. I am sure he would be thrilled to help all of you out. Here is the LINK. Scroll to the international area of the page and find the Australia listed at the top of that section.

Thank you. Will do just that

Sorry for the derail folks. Leaving you to it now.

[Irontruth]

TanithT wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

TanithT wrote:

I don't think I'll be buying much from any other companies, now that I know how hard they are working on being inclusive and respectful of things like same sex relationships.

I would recommend checking out some small/independent publishers.

Elizabeht Sampat is very cool. She writes very cool and interesting games. Her blog posts are excellent, though it seems like she's dropped off on that.

I meant, probably not inclined to buy much from companies other than Paizo. They win a lot of kudos for depicting same sex relationships as a normal slice of life, and at least trying to ease off on the old, bad tropes of always portraying women in sexualized, mostly ornamental, or submissive/helpless positions.

Though the more I see book covers like this one the less I am inclined to buy. :/

I understand why you said you're unlikely to buy from a lot of companies other than Paizo. Which is why I was trying to bring to your attention someone else who might also qualify in regards to their portrayal of women.

Here's the cover of the game I enjoy most from her. The game is essentially Burn Notice the RPG, but without the license.

[TanithT]

prosfilaes wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

TanithT wrote:

...Except we won't see that on a book cover. There is way too much institutionalized male homophobia for something like this not to be the marketing knell of doom....

Does this work? Seriously, we haven't been able to get Seltyiel to button his shirt in years. Showoff. :)

I think that's an example of why tuning down sexualized characters instead of balancing it is probably a better idea. I'm sure I've seen that picture before, but having my attention called to it, it's something that too much of could quickly turn me off on the game.

Welcome to my world. This is what it feels like to be me. Sexualized depictions of women are *everywhere* in the industry, and it makes me uncomfortable for the exact same reasons that it would make you uncomfortable if this type of depiction of men was common enough to be the default norm.

[TanithT]

Irontruth wrote:

Here's the cover of the game I enjoy most from her. The game is essentially Burn Notice the RPG, but without the license.

Hey, nabbad. I can live with that. She's not in a stupid pose or wearing stupid clothes, just functional athletic ones, even if they show some skin and chest. Nice.

[Adam Daigle]

prosfilaes wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

TanithT wrote:

...Except we won't see that on a book cover. There is way too much institutionalized male homophobia for something like this not to be the marketing knell of doom....

Does this work? Seriously, we haven't been able to get Seltyiel to button his shirt in years. Showoff. :)

I think that's an example of why tuning down sexualized characters instead of balancing it is probably a better idea. I'm sure I've seen that picture before, but having my attention called to it, it's something that too much of could quickly turn me off on the game.

I'm sorry that piece has a negative connotation to you and seems overly sexual. I'm sure some of our art will appeal more. I was simply trying to provide an image of one or two of our attractive male iconics. Not that Alain jerk, though. Gah.

[Shifty]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag.

CAN be worth it though! The next con at Easter is in the Northern Suburbs at least, so have a look :)

Alice Margatroid wrote:

When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!

The PFS games have a better representation for sure, there's even the Facebook groups and warhorn so you can get a feel for who is going.

We've usually had women at the table in the majority of sessions I have experienced.

It's a pretty welcoming space, so jump on board and add to it at your leisure :)

[John Kretzer]

TanithT wrote:

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

I have no worries that women will reach parity in the hoby especially with such passionate and eloquent members of the community as DQ, TT, and Alice M pushing things along. They just shouldn't have to do it by themselves.

Except, quite honestly, I am not. I stick my nose into the fandom very occasionally when someone brings a thread to my attention. I run out of patience and give-a-damn very quickly. I get tired of battering my head against the stone wall of men who jump in to a conversation about how to get more women into gaming and swear they will personally make it impossible for there to be any such thing as a woman's gaming night by showing up there to protest. Men who are sure they know better than we do what we need to feel more comfortable, and men who like the status quo just fine and don't want any more gurrrllls at their tables. Men who get angry and accuse me of assorted bad things when I discuss the historical etymology of a word and why it may be problematic to use a historically insulting term while addressing the group that word was being used to trivialize and dismiss.

I very largely gave up and went away from this hobby a long time ago. It just wasn't worth the hassle of trying again and again to find a gaming group that didn't have these issues, or RPG material that didn't keep sending me the creepy message that it was for the heterosexual male gaze and women were the objects. Gaming is awesome, when it works. The problem is that it doesn't work for me a lot more often than it does.

Paizo gives me a little hope. But honestly not much, because no matter how good and progressive one company is, it can not change the entire cultural matrix. Paizo is trying very hard and I give them major kudos for it. I don't think I'll be buying much from any other companies, now that I know how hard they are working on being inclusive and respectful of things like same sex relationships.

But even on the Paizo boards, it is very clear that the...

First it ONE MAN who said he would protest a women's night gaming thing...just one. There was what maybe 2 others who said they did not like it on grounds it being 'unfair'. That is 3 men who said it was bad idea...sorry but 3 hardly make it a overwhelming evidence to judge all men of sharing their opinion that women's night is bad idea. Heck many have more men in this thread have said it was a good idea. I admitt I broght up a logistic reason it might not work at gaming stores...in my area. But that was more of seeing if there was a way to make it work than to spike the idea.

Second...this is the internet. I have learned that gaming message boards hardly ever represent what gamers want or feel. Of the 15 gamers I game with I am the only one who frequent these boards...or any gaming message boards. Of about 50 gamers I have known in passing only two post on gaming messageboards. Heck on of the reasons I believe WotC's 4th ED was not as popular is because they paid their attention solely to their messageboards instaed of actualy doing research. So don't take anything posted here by a few as a representation of male gamers(or just gamers) in general think.

Third...is a question. Do you think that men have anything meaningful to add to this discussion? Because I am getting a very strong vibe that you don't.

[magnuskn]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

more ameiko pls :D

I'll second that ( there's the cover for the last Jade Regent module, just in case you missed that one ).

[magnuskn]

Alice Margatroid wrote:

I agree Tanith, it was only when I was looking for the stuff I vaguely remembered that I noticed how silly that one's pose was. But I wasn't interested in spending that much time searching for pictures so I just thought I'd point it out. It's not nearly as egregious as it could be, thankfully, but it IS still dumb to make poses like that. And at least she otherwise looks cool.

The pose is one of those carry-overs from the comic book industry. Look at about every Jim Lee comic from the 90's, like this one

More modern artistic depiction has gotten ( sometimes, at least ) more bearable. For example, here is the title cover of the upcoming all-female X-Men by Brian Wood. At least the "hip-toss" by Rogue seems to be deliberate, rather than being supposed to be a natural way to move.

[John Kretzer]

@Samurai:

We get that you are against any form of exclusion. That is very noble and such. It is also...well foolish. Women and men...as research...and history have shown have a natural inclination to be more comfortable in a single sex enviroment for a period of time. This might be biology or thousands of years of social pressure or a combination of both. Yes we are making strives to over come it...and hopefuly we will change our natures where thing like 'Wonmen's Night' and Men's Clubs are a thing of the past. But these things take time and can't be forced.

You have also stated your opinion and have defended it very well. But people still disagree with you. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree....I mean if there are 'Women's Night' at a gaming store...or as a gaming club membership drive is the world going to truely end?

If you feel soo strongly that this idea is not neccessary than I suggest taking action. Organize a 'New Player Night' with your gaming club or gaming store. Be as inclusive as you like and than tell us how many women show up.

[Andrew R]

As far as the art goes, just look at the covers of cosmo, etc. Woman's mags have attractive women often in over sexualized poses and often dressed skimpy enough to be covered on store shelves. Women snapping that up really sends us a mixed messege......

[Andrew R]

John Kretzer wrote:

@Samurai:

We get that you are against any form of exclusion. That is very noble and such. It is also...well foolish. Women and men...as research...and history have shown have a natural inclination to be more comfortable in a single sex enviroment for a period of time. This might be biology or thousands of years of social pressure or a combination of both. Yes we are making strives to over come it...and hopefuly we will change our natures where thing like 'Wonmen's Night' and Men's Clubs are a thing of the past. But these things take time and can't be forced.

You have also stated your opinion and have defended it very well. But people still disagree with you. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree....I mean if there are 'Women's Night' at a gaming store...or as a gaming club membership drive is the world going to truely end?

If you feel soo strongly that this idea is not neccessary than I suggest taking action. Organize a 'New Player Night' with your gaming club or gaming store. Be as inclusive as you like and than tell us how many women show up.

But would that explanation not also rationalize and justify men resisting women in their games and excluding them?